the age old question....

[Lord Dante]

this is the question that has plagued mankind since time began....... (well, sort of)

which star trek captain is best????

kirk, picard, or janeway.


i would have to pick jean luc picard.

picard, in my oppinion had the support of a superior crew. (most notably lt. cmndr. data, worf, and jeordi leforge)

so, please tell me your oppinion on the matter.

[Manic Webb]

You forgot Archer and Sisko.

I also agree that Picard was the best captain. In fact, the writers of the TV show and NextGen movies made a habit of making him close to infallible. He [i]always[/i] figured everything out, and [i]always[/i] made the right decision. He was the Renaissance Man. It's like they spent so much time pulling Patrick Stewart out of Bill Shatner's shadow, they created a monster. Granted, it was a monster who thought everything through, was never quick to take senseless action, and could plot and scheme with the best of 'em.

As much as I love Kirk, I've always had a problem with two things:
1) He went on missions with his first officer all the time. Whoever the third highest ranking officer on the Enterprise was, they took command of that ship [i]alot[/i]. That was bad strategic thinking on his part.
2) The red-shirt/ensign who always died. I understand that some things were simply out of Kirk's control, but how many ensigns did the guy lose during his command? And it's not like they were battle casualties; he usually lost them during an exploration mission.

That's not to say Kirk was a completely crappy captain. He knew his ship, he knew his crew, and he ran the whole thing like a well-oiled machine. And when you're hitting that alien booty every other episode, you have to be doing something right.

Janeway was a great captain, given the circumstance. The Voyager was an escort ship with a skeleton crew, and it got stranded on the other side of the freaking galaxy. She was a pretty strong leader, and she always knew when to listen to her crew. The only problem was that her crew was crap. She had a first officer who commanded no authority over the other crew members. I mean, it's not like she had a crew worthy of the Enterprise.
She [i]did[/i] get them all back home, though. She's also the only captain besides Picard who could tango with Q, although Q's interest in Janeway was... uh... different.

Interestingly enough, Sisko didn't become a very good leader until he got promoted to Captain a few years into the series. He was also the only captain who was put in charge of a space station, and rarely traveled the stars in search of blah blah. This was the guy everybody knew, everybody liked, and everybody looked up to... at least on the DS9. Considering he was put there for negotiations, and how often the station got attacked, he was a brilliant strategic thinker. And unlike Picard, Sisko actually had flaws. He had to handle a struggling relationship with his son, and everything he did to save that station had him at a disadvantage. Plus he somehow ended up becoming a medium/prophet for the Bajoran religion.

Archer... he... um...
I never watched Enterprise. I'm a fan, but I was never enough of a Trekkie to force myself to watch that show past the first few episodes.

[Lord Dante]

[QUOTE]As much as I love Kirk, I've always had a problem with two things:
1) He went on missions with his first officer all the time. Whoever the third highest ranking officer on the Enterprise was, they took command of that ship alot. That was bad strategic thinking on his part.
2) The red-shirt/ensign who always died. I understand that some things were simply out of Kirk's control, but how many ensigns did the guy lose during his command? And it's not like they were battle casualties; he usually lost them during an exploration mission. [/QUOTE]

i'll agree with that. plus virtually all of kirk's adventures seemed to revolve around a woman of some description....


[QUOTE] Janeway was a great captain, given the circumstance. The Voyager was an escort ship with a skeleton crew, and it got stranded on the other side of the freaking galaxy. She was a pretty strong leader, and she always knew when to listen to her crew. The only problem was that her crew was crap. She had a first officer who commanded no authority over the other crew members. I mean, it's not like she had a crew worthy of the Enterprise.
She did get them all back home, though. She's also the only captain besides Picard who could tango with Q, although Q's interest in Janeway was... uh... different[/QUOTE]

again, i'll agree with that. the crew (with the possible exeption of harry, the doctor, and tuvok) was expecially crap. as for the Q incident, Q only appeared one in voyager. so janeway couldn't [I]really[/I] tangle with him.

picard is the only one who could go toe-to-toe with Q.


Q rules.

[Brasil]

I noticed someone mentioned Picard is better because of the crew, and I don't think any of the NG crew can hold a candle to the original crew. I mean we've got Spock, Bones, Scotty, Mr. Sulu...the original crew so utterly pwnzzorzs the NG crew.

Picard, to my knowledge, never had any really bad-*** enemies--and by "enemies," I mean mortal enemies.

Kirk had a mortal enemy. His name was Kahn. Kahn was a genetically-engineered superhuman and played by Ricardo Montalban.

Star Trek II: Wrath of Kahn obliterates the entire NG series. Wicked sweet villain, wicked good battle strategy from Kirk, wicked cool themes and imagery, and a wicked awesome finale.

Kirk >>>>>> Picard

[DeathBug]

I think it's worth mentioning that Picard is the only person in history to break away from the Borg collective and return to his original states. (Seven of Nine doesn't count; she breaks away from the collective, but she is clearly still a Borg.) He then went on to kick the crap out of the entire Borg race in "First Contact", and constantly outwitted an omnipotent master alien. (Q, who is an awesome character any way you look at it.)

Piccard's crew is also far better than Kirk's; with the exception of Spock, I'd take Worf, Data, Riker, Geordi or Crusher at my back, rather thant McCoy, Chekov, Sulu or Scotty.

And, yes, Wrath of Khan is a good movie, but let's look at some of the other first generation movies...

Piccard pwns Kirk.

[Lord Dante]

[QUOTE=DeathBug]I think it's worth mentioning that Picard is the only person in history to break away from the Borg collective and return to his original states. (Seven of Nine doesn't count; she breaks away from the collective, but she is clearly still a Borg.) He then went on to kick the crap out of the entire Borg race in "First Contact", and constantly outwitted an omnipotent master alien. (Q, who is an awesome character any way you look at it.)

Piccard's crew is also far better than Kirk's; with the exception of Spock, I'd take Worf, Data, Riker, Geordi or Crusher at my back, rather thant McCoy, Chekov, Sulu or Scotty.

And, yes, Wrath of Khan is a good movie, but let's look at some of the other first generation movies...

Piccard pwns Kirk.[/QUOTE]


HAHAHAH!!! A BELIEVER!!!

\m/ \m/

well said. picard was the best captain, with the best crew. klingon beats vulkan any day.

[DeathBug]

[quote name='Lord Dante']klingon beats vulkan any day.[/quote]

Well, hang on now. Spock still pwns, no matter what system of measurement you're using.

[Brasil]

Ah, but DeathBug, don't forget Kirk's strategy in Wrath of Kahn. He singlehandedly saved the galaxy (with a bit of Spock's help, of course, but the transmissions were Kirk's idea), because if Kahn had acquired the Genesis Device, they were looking at a galaxy-wide re-synthesis. Without Kirk and his brilliant battle strategy, there would be no Federation...Kahn would have decimated them using the Genesis Device, and Picard would never have gotten a chance to grace the deck of the USS Enterprise.

[DeathBug]

Well, then don't you forget the events of First Contact, where Piccard and Data managed to kill the Borg Queen and save not only all of hummanity from being assimilated, but the entire Federation as well, since at that point, the VUlcans didn't have the technology to defeat the Borg either, and their infestation would have spread.

Granted, the Queen was in Voyager, but it wasn't explained if it's the same Queen, or if, due to the mechanics of time travel, she never died, since the events of First Contact wouldn't have happened had they returned before they left.

But then you get into time travel paradoxes, and that's where I walk away.

[Brasil]

Don't forget that if Kirk had lost to Kahn, there would be no Borg (actually, nothing to challenge Picard--hell, Picard wouldn't even be around, lol).

The galaxy, the universe, etc., would be something entirely different. The power of the Genesis Device could create a planet from a nebula. Think about what it could do to biomechanics (and really, everything).

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE=Siren]Don't forget that if Kirk had lost to Kahn, there would be no Borg (actually, nothing to challenge Picard--hell, Picard wouldn't even be around, lol).
[/QUOTE]

Well, yeah, but that's not a valid argument. Is it a fault of Piccard that he wasn't alive in time to stop Khan?

[Brasil]

[quote name='DeathBug']Well, yeah, but that's not a valid argument. Is it a fault of Piccard that he wasn't alive in time to stop Khan?[/quote]
I was merely mentioning Kirk's skills in the films, because you were mentioning Picard's in the films, and without Kirk, there would have been no Federation to protect. Here's why.

I view Picard as many would view him: a professor (very formal, reserved, almost an intellectual manner). Kirk is more of a gambler. While he may not seem as...stoic as Picard, he's got a better poker face, because he plays the missions like a card game, especially in Star Trek II. In Star Trek II, he takes a gamble on those access codes being unchanged.

He doesn't beat Kahn intellectually. Kahn doesn't operate on an intellectual level. He beats Kahn on an emotional level. Kirk knows how Kahn operates, because they're essentially mirror images of each other. Kahn loses because Kirk plays with him, outplaying him because he knows how Kahn will react.

I don't see Picard doing that. He isn't willing to cheat to win. I think he'd be too concerned with staying proper than getting down into the nitty-gritty with Kahn. Kahn wouldn't care how reserved and pleasant Picard may be trying to be. He would view it (etiquette) as weakness (in Kahn's debut episode, Space Seed, this is made perfectly clear).

If Picard were facing off against Kahn, things would have turned out much worse, I'd think. There are very specific stimuli that Kahn responds to. Kirk has them. Picard doesn't.

Kahn is a warrior and such, needs a warrior. Picard is too much of a diplomat.

You asked me if it's Picard's fault he wasn't alive to deal with Kahn. If he were dealing with him, Kahn would have wrecked him.

It's like this:

Kirk = Dubya
Picard = Kerry

[Manic Webb]

Kirk may have gambled his way into stopping a madman from destroying the known galaxy, but [i]who[/i] justified human existance to a race of god-like beings? On several occasions? In fact, if memory serves, Picard prevented the human race from disappearing in the cracks of time.

[Lord Dante]

[QUOTE]I don't see Picard doing that. He isn't willing to cheat to win. I think he'd be too concerned with staying proper than getting down into the nitty-gritty with Kahn. Kahn wouldn't care how reserved and pleasant Picard may be trying to be. He would view it (etiquette) as weakness (in Kahn's debut episode, Space Seed, this is made perfectly clear).
[/QUOTE]

so picard fights fair. if anything that raises my oppinon of the man.

another reason why picard pwns kirk is that picard had the guts to admit he was bald. kirk just wore that awful toupee.


[QUOTE]Kirk may have gambled his way into stopping a madman from destroying the known galaxy, but who justified human existance to a race of god-like beings? On several occasions? In fact, if memory serves, Picard prevented the human race from disappearing in the cracks of time[/QUOTE]

well said mr. webb.

but an argument for janeway: she and the voyager crew managed to do time travel to save stuff, but even though they created timeline inversions and time travel paradoxes, they managed to sor them out in the end! XD

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]I have to admit that I've always been a much bigger fan of Picard than I was of Kirk, perhaps it's because I never took to the original series [I'm a huge fan of the movies] or perhaps it's because I watched TNG when I was growing up. I also feel that I could identify a lot more with Picard's way of thinking that Kirk's, Kirk for me was too passionate and lacked Picard's clarity of thought and good judgement, he [Kirk] just seemed to get lucky far too often [a bit like Janeway].[/SIZE]

[quote name='Manic Webb]Kirk may have gambled his way into stopping a madman from destroying the known galaxy, but [i]who[/i'] justified human existence to a race of god-like beings? On several occasions? In fact, if memory serves, Picard prevented the human race from disappearing in the cracks of time.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Yep that would be the series finale to The Next Generation, Picard single-handedly saves Earth and pretty much the whole Galaxy from destruction from that singularity. And of course without Picard's intervention there would have been no Kirk to swan around wooing women and eventually defeating Kahn. Kirk may have been able to match his wits against a genetic superman but Picard continuously outwitted Q, who is for better or worse [probably worse] a God-like being. [/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Siren]He doesn't beat Kahn intellectually. Kahn doesn't operate on an intellectual level. He beats Kahn on an emotional level. Kirk knows how Kahn operates, because they're essentially mirror images of each other. Kahn loses because Kirk plays with him, outplaying him because he knows how Kahn will react.

I don't see Picard doing that. He isn't willing to cheat to win. I think he'd be too concerned with staying proper than getting down into the nitty-gritty with Kahn. Kahn wouldn't care how reserved and pleasant Picard may be trying to be. He would view it (etiquette) as weakness (in Kahn's debut episode, Space Seed, this is made perfectly clear).

If Picard were facing off against Kahn, things would have turned out much worse, I'd think. There are very specific stimuli that Kahn responds to. Kirk has them. Picard doesn't.

Kahn is a warrior and such, needs a warrior. Picard is too much of a diplomat.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I think one could quite readily compare Kirk's battle against Kahn in [B]Star Trek II[/B] to Picard's battle against Shinzon in [B]Nemesis[/B], in both cases it's down to a battle of emotion. Kahn wants vengeance against Kirk for imprisoning him on Ceti Alpha V and because Shinzon [spoiler]is a clone of[/spoiler] Picard he feels that unless he destroys Picard he can never come out of his shadow, as echoed by what he believes he is, "an echo, a shadow".

In the beginning it seems to be a battle of intellect, but as the film progresses it's clear that the battle is one on an emotional level. Heck in the end Data sacrifices his life so the crew can escape, just as Spock did in [B]The Wrath of Kahn[/B]. Even though Picard isn't willing to cheat to win, Kirk isn't willing to sacrifice himself in order to serve the greater good, there is no clearer demonstration of that than in Star Trek VI when he vehemently disagrees with peace with the Klingons.

As for the part about Picard being a warrior, I think when Picard faced the Borg in [B]First Contact[/B] he proved that he was far more than just a diplomat, Picard is probably even more skilled than Kirk as a tactician, although his hatred and anger did cloud his judgement.

[b]Kirk gets lucky, Picard has skill.[/b][/SIZE]

[Lord Dante]

[QUOTE]Kirk gets lucky, Picard has skill[/QUOTE]


sums it all up in one