Terri Shiavo, let her live!

[Kamuro]

I saw that she died earlier this morning, and I felt a strange feeling, somewhat of relief? Even though she was starved to death, the doctors said she was incapable of feeling the pain involved, and hopefully thats true. I think I felt relief because this has gone on much to long, and I believe her parents were punished by not being able be with her when she died for their actions. there really isn't a right or wrong in this case, but my opinion is, they were wrong, and delaying the inevitable, is never an option...

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]I purposely stayed away from posting in this thread because of the complications that arose from Terri's situation. I personally wasn't sure what who and what was right in that situation, if Terri herself had been able to say whether or not she wanted to die then it would have resolved the whole thing but sadly that did not happen.

As a Catholic I suppose had she said she wanted to die it would have been considered suicide, or perhaps it wouldn't have been, I'm not 100% sure on that. Had it been considered a suicide I suppose I still don't know where I would have stood, was it right to keep her alive using artificial means if there was no hope of recovering ? Would that not have been to increase her suffering ? I just don't know, and I somehow feel as though I'm lost part of my faith by having these doubt.

I never really felt that Terri's husband was the bad guy, he felt as if he were doing what was right for his wife, what he has said she wand, and that's all we have to go on. Her parents on the other hand wanted their daughter kept alive and I can very much sympathise with that, there really was nobody definitely in the right or wrong in this situation, they both felt that they were doing what was right for Terri.

However I did not feel that it was right for Terri's situation to be thrown out into the political arena, without all the facts being given. It was a family dispute between the people who loved Terri, and to bring it outside and into the international spotlight was not really a fair thing to do. I don't think that Terri went in to most pleasant way possible, but to have given her a lethal injection would be to introduce euthanasia, it's a situation really which has no winners and I at least hope that Terri has gone on to somewhere better.[/SIZE]

[Gelgoog Pilot]

The reason it was considered a 'humane' death was because she had been in a vegitative state, meaning she had no brain activity. For all intents and purposes Terri Shiavo was already dead, that was the basis fo letting her die. Also, they chose it this way because she was being fed through tube, what's the most cost effective way besides smothering her with a pillow? Turn off the tube...I'm not saying it was the best decision they're ever made, but it really wasn't the same type of starvation that goes on everyday. Her body was still alive while the mind was gone...she really didn't suffer.

[Brasil]

Taken from

[url]http://www.comcast.net/news/index.jsp?cat=GENERAL&fn=/2005/03/31/95376.html[/url]

[quote]Schiavo's feeding tube was briefly removed in 2001. It was reinserted after two days when a court intervened. In October 2003, the tube was removed again, but Gov. Jeb Bush rushed Terri's Law through the Legislature, allowing the state to have the feeding tube reinserted after six days. The Florida Supreme Court later struck down the law as unconstitutional interference in the judicial system by the executive branch. Nearly two weeks ago, the tube was removed for a third and final time.[/quote]

Dark Humor of the Day: Looks like third time [i]is[/i] the charm.

[Red]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman'] I think it's alwful that she was allowed to starve to death.You can't even do that to an animal. But heck, do it to a human and it's considered allowing the person to die peacefully.[/quote]

Again, what other method would you propose? Even if she was able to feel pain, morphine was administered after the tube was removed. According to various studies into comatose states, she would have been completely unable to feel pain or suffer - the morphine was simply a precaution.

Somebody couldn't just kill her, that could be considered inhumane by one person just as removing the tube is to another.

I'm sure you would be able to remove the feeding tube from a comatose animal, were such a situation to arise.

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Ozymandius Jones][COLOR=DarkOrange]

The main problem is that we spend millions and millions to save people from starving in Africa - and let a woman die of it here. Starvation is suffering. It's not a nice way to go...
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
She didn't feel a thing. She didn't feel it because she's been [b]brain dead[/b] for 15 years.

[Kamuro]

I was watching the news earlier this morning and heard that the family and husband are still disputing each other consider the funeral, this disturbed me, even after the death of their family memeber and wife they still continue to bicker over small things that could be easily solved by sitting down and talking about it

[moonlightshadow]

In a way i'm glad Terri won't suffer anymore. But still. She was brain-dead so i don't think she knew she was starving so maybe she died peacefully. I think i speak for eveyone when i say we will never forget Terri Shiavo. :(

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='x kakashi x']I was watching the news earlier this morning and heard that the family and husband are still disputing each other consider the funeral, this disturbed me, even after the death of their family memeber and wife they still continue to bicker over small things that could be easily solved by sitting down and talking about it[/quote] Don't you think thats a rather näive statement? The husband and parents have been at loggerheads for so long, over a fundamental disagreement. The parents didn't want Terri to die that way, [b]but you think it's all over?[/b] Just because she's dead doesn't mean that the differences and arguments between her husband and her parents will just stop.[/size]

[ForgottenRaider]

I have a very simple solution assuming a case like this comes up again.

[b]All those who want the person to live can pay for them to live[/b].

In this case it would have worked for the husband, as his life isn't crippled by the costs (which I will note he has paid for the last 15 years without help from the parents who are now trying to 'save' the girl) and it would have kept all the religious people happy.

Oh...Then again when little jimmy down the road needs a heart transplant other wise he will die no one will have any money to give because they will be already giving it to a dead lady.

Besides, [url=http://maddox.xmission.com/c.cgi?u=april_fools05]Maddox[/url] had a good spin on this topic. [A note that the maddox link has three swear words in the text.]

[Harry]

Here's something interesting I saw today.

[url]http://www.brandrepublic.com/bulletins/dm/article/468494/storm-sale-donor-list-dying-us-coma-patients-parents/[/url]
Honestly every single one of those people deserve it.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Harry]She didn't feel a thing. She didn't feel it because she's been [b]brain dead[/b'] for 15 years.[/quote]I find it quite irritating how people (not you in particular Harry) can be so arrogant as to assume they know everything.

You don't know for sure how Terri was feeling, and you don't know for sure that she isn't aware of her surroundings.

So, when she first fell into her coma, she stopped breathing for 5 minutes, and then, we can safely assume that there is not hope for her? How do you even know how much of her brain is damaged? How do you know for sure how wether she feels pain or not? I find it quite appalling that people would choose to starve her to death. That's quite monstrous I must say.

There have been many times where people in this type of vegetative state wake up from their comas. You don't know for sure if Terri would have woken up or not.

I've read about a toddler who fell into a deep murky lake, and it took his father over [B]15 minutes[/B] to get him out since the water was so deep.

The boy appeared dead at first, his eyes staring blankly, his heart not beating, nor was he breathing. Not to mention that he was inderwater for [B]15 minutes[/B].

A few days later, the boy wakes up in the hospital, and no brain damage was apparent watsoever. He asks his father: where's my shoe? (He had lost it in the lake).

This type of scenario happens all the time, therefore, we have no right to take people's lives as we please.

If someone was about to get hit by a car, and had the channce to save them and I didn't, it still counts as murder.

If they did get hit by the car, then not taking to the hospital would be murder, unless their body was blown to smitherines.

In Terri's case, the feeding tube kept her [B]alive[/B]. She was [B]alive[/B], and anyone who believes in God would agree that her body still had her soul. But even if you were athiest, you would agree that she was alive.

But she still would have died eventually, even if she had stayed on the feeding tube.

Even if her wishes were that she be taken off life support, I see this as suicide. Suicide is still illegal people, no matter how crappy you think your life is.

In light of this incidence, I was struck by how important it is to have a will. You don't want spiteful people hurting you and your family, just because they are your "kin".[/COLOR]

[Brasil]

[quote name='Chabichou']I find it quite irritating how people (not you in particular Harry) can be so arrogant as to assume they know everything.[/quote]
Chabi,

[quote name='Chabi later in her post']Even if her wishes were that she be taken off life support, I see this as suicide. Suicide is still illegal people, no matter how crappy you think your life is.[/quote]
With that type of "logic" you use in your post here, I hardly think you have room to criticize Harry, or anyone for that matter, on the basis of quantity of knowledge.

[quote]You don't know for sure how Terri was feeling, and you don't know for sure that she isn't aware of her surroundings.[/quote]
Someone lifts her head up, replaces her pillow, sets her head back down, brushes her hair, and she stares blankly into space, not even acknowledging what is going on. When people are in the room, she's not looking at them; she's staring through them. I'd say she's not aware of her surroundings.

[quote]So, when she first fell into her [b]coma[/b], she stopped breathing for [b]5[/b] minutes, and then, we can safely assume that there is not hope for her? [b]How do you even know how much of her brain is damaged?[/b] How do you know for sure how wether she feels pain or not? I find it quite appalling that people would choose to starve her to death. That's quite monstrous I must say.

There have been many times where people in this type of vegetative state wake up from their comas. You don't know for sure if [b]Terri would have woken up or not[/b].[/quote]
Chabi, read the news reports. [i]Terri isn't/wasn't in a coma[/i]. And from what I've read, it was actually 10 minutes. When the extent of the brain damage is so severe that we see a physical change like that after only two years...I can't imagine how we could say the brain damage is so severe.

[quote]This type of scenario happens all the time, therefore, we have no right to take people's lives as we please.[/quote]
You made a few critical errors in your point here.

Firstly, the scenario you described (toddler in lake for 15 minutes with no injury whatsoever) sounds fabricated and/or exaggerated. I'm not saying you made it up, but I am suggesting that your source doesn't sound like they're reporting it accurately.

Secondly, you're basing your conclusion on a supposition: "this type of scenario happens all the time." That is not a valid premise.

Thirdly, "we have no right to take people's lives as we please" is missing the point entirely. The issue here is not about walking up to someone in broad daylight and murdering them with a bowie knife, simply because we can. That's what the focus of your conclusion is: Nietzsche's Superman in society.

That's not what the focus of the Terri Schiavo case is. Nobody is "taking" anyone's life simply because they can (and anyone who colors it like that is crying wolf). To claim that's what's going on is asinine. What is happening, however--rather, was happening--is a husband fighting to take his wife off of life support because he says it was her wish, and her parents fighting against that because they don't believe the husband has honest motives.

That's what's going on...not someone who just wants to kill another human being simply because they can.

[quote]If someone was about to get hit by a car, and had the channce to save them and I didn't, it still counts as murder.

If they did get hit by the car, then not taking to the hospital would be murder, unless their body was blown to smitherines.[/quote]
I don't see how being unable to save someone from getting hit by a car is going to be murder. Unless you just stood there deliberately and let the 18-wheeler smash into that baby carriage, or let the small child drown because you wanted to be a hateful, spiteful bastard, I can't see how you could be found guilty of anything.

And even then, if someone is getting swept out by a riptide (a strong, sudden current that swiftly moves away from a beach, often dragging swimmers out to sea), it's foolish to try to save them yourself, because you may very well end up being another person the lifeguards have to save.

Being a bystander in an emergency where there may be a casualty is not murder, Chabi. I don't see how you're able to argue that if someone is too scared to do something, that makes them a murderer...because that's faulty logic.

[quote]In Terri's case, the feeding tube kept her alive. She was alive, and anyone who believes in God would agree that her body still had her soul. But even if you were athiest, you would agree that she was alive.[/quote]
Alive in the physical sense, in that she couldn't breathe on her own, couldn't eat on her own, couldn't even move on her own, then yes, she was alive physically.

Mentally, however? There was nothing there.

[quote]But she still would have died eventually, even if she had stayed on the feeding tube.[/quote]
Then what's the problem with lessening what she's going through?

[quote]Even if her wishes were that she be taken off life support, I see this as suicide. Suicide is still illegal people, no matter how crappy you think your life is.[/quote]
[b][i]WHAT?!?[/i][/b] We shouldn't honor someone's living will because not wanting to be kept alive as a vegetable is the same thing as slashing your own wrists, loading up on vodka/pills, or blowing the back of your head out with a pistol? Please. A living will/right to die is not suicide, Chabi.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Chabichou, Siren has said just about everything I wanted to say to you. Except that I'm sure you know better than all the doctors who oversaw Terri's condition, and gave her CAT scans... I'm sure you know much better.

I have only one other point to make: Suicide is not illegal.[/size]

[AzureWolf]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']I have only one other point to make: Suicide is not illegal.[/size][/quote] [COLOR=blue]Really? I always thought it was illegal since they take people into custody and rehabilitation after attempted suicide. Granted, I guess there isn't [i]technically[/i] any punishment for successful suicide for obvious reasons, but I always thought it was written in the books as something illegal.

And no, I'm not confusing the religous burial thing with legislative law. I'm honestly not sure if it is illegal, which is why I'm asking.[/COLOR]

[ForgottenRaider]

I honestly hope she has not been a live these 15 years...

Being stuck in your head with only yourself has been described as worse than a living hell. And for 15 years, I doubt any one can imagin some thing so bad.

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]I find it quite irritating how people (not you in particular Harry) can be so arrogant as to assume they know everything.

You don't know for sure how Terri was feeling, and you don't know for sure that she isn't aware of her surroundings.

So, when she first fell into her coma, she stopped breathing for 5 minutes, and then, we can safely assume that there is not hope for her? How do you even know how much of her brain is damaged? How do you know for sure how wether she feels pain or not? I find it quite appalling that people would choose to starve her to death. That's quite monstrous I must say.

There have been many times where people in this type of vegetative state wake up from their comas. You don't know for sure if Terri would have woken up or not.

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
The MRI showed that the top half of her brain is dead. The top half of your brain is where any and all consciousness is. Science dictates that she was gone to the world. If you want to ignore science and hope for miracles (15 years after the heart attack) that's fine, but don't start preaching about how she was still savable.

[Godelsensei]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][COLOR=blue]Really? I always thought it was illegal since they take people into custody and rehabilitation after attempted suicide. Granted, I guess there isn't [i]technically[/i] any punishment for successful suicide for obvious reasons, but I always thought it was written in the books as something illegal.

And no, I'm not confusing the religous burial thing with legislative law. I'm honestly not sure if it is illegal, which is why I'm asking.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

In Canada, at least, it's illegal to [b]take a human life.[/b] That includes your own, though the "punishment" for attempted suicide is more along the lines of rehabilitation.
So it's illegal in an ambiguous sort of way, I guess.

[Dirt]

[b][color=darkgreen]Well, to put an end to the "Is suicide illegal?" question, it depends on where you are. It's illegal in my state.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400][/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400]And Siren has also said much of what I had to say...[/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400][/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400]Why would it be true that it would be suicide? Because you made an informed decision when you were still capable of thought to not have your corpse kept warm after your consciousness has left it's mechanism for physical movement? lol[/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400][/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400]There was nothing left of Terri in that body. It was empty cells and tissue.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400]Her soul was gone long before the whole debate came about.[/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400][/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400](On a side note--did anyone see the South Park episode that corresponds to this case? It was absoutely brilliant.:animesmil )[/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400][/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400]At any rate, it seems that the people who end up fighting to keep someone's corpse warm in cases such as these, are typically the people who weren't there for the person when they [i]could[/i] respond and interact and live. [/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400][/color][/b]
[b][color=#006400]It's like they want to keep them alive for their own selfish needs... to try to make amends or something. The people who were around the person and that loved the person seem to know that it's time to let go and have it be finished.[/color][/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I guess it depends on where you live as to the legality of suicide. But I'd say that the only reason they take people into custody is to try and stop them from committing it again. Have you ever heard of someone being sent to jail for attempted suicide? They send them to re-habilitation. To protect them, not as punishment.[/size]

[Bloodseeker]

The woman was in a coma for what, 15 years? What would it matter if you were alive or dead in that state? You're just wasting hospital funds at that point. Its even worse if she consious of her surroundings. Can you imagine how badly that would suck? You hear voices, you know people up and about, you know where you are, you're aware to extent, and yet you can't do anything? It sounds like it would be better to have your life cut off than continue to spend another decade in that state.

She should she have been starved? Probably not. She was aware, right? That means that she would gotten pretty miserable before death. I think that they should have brought out the axe. Not clean, but cheap and quick.

[Zeta]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']I guess it depends on where you live as to the legality of suicide. But I'd say that the only reason they take people into custody is to try and stop them from committing it again. Have you ever heard of someone being sent to jail for attempted suicide? They send them to re-habilitation. To protect them, not as punishment.[/size][/quote]

Well in others eyes it is protecting them, but in their own it is punishment for letting them live. *shrug* That is how I always looked at it and the legality of the issue as a whole. But hey. I find school a punishment when they just want to educate me. *shrug* I guess it is like Obi-Wan and various others have said "from a certain point of view."

Onto the funeral ordeal...I stopped following what exactly was happening after her death, so am not update on this portion. But what are they battling about now? Does one want a funeral and burial? cremation? I'll look it up when I get some free time. If they both just want burial, how hard would it be for them to just co-operate and compromise? They would both want the same thing and I don't see how different their wants in the matter could be.

If it is the other way around, I'm sure a compromise could be reached to some degree. *shrug*

[Gelgoog Pilot]

Ugh people, people, people. Terri Shaivo was NOT in a coma...she was brain dead...comatose patients still have low levels of brain activity in their frontal lobe. As others have stated...yet some still chose to not read their posts, Terri's frontal half was completely dead. This is not a coma...also Im not sure if this is just the movies talking but comatose victims usually just lay there with their eyes closed. Terri always opened them up, she still had a blank look on her face, and really that was one of the reasons the parents 'thought' she'd get better.

And the claim that the husband asking for Terri to be let off the medical equipement as having a dishonest motive is crap. I wouldn't blame my son-in-law for wanting to move on after 15 years of hospital payments and living alone. Let the man try and live out the rest of his life. It's his choice to either find someone else or spend another possible 10 years by that bed side. :animeangr

[haruko girl]

before- i was all for the parents but now i'm not as sure about my opinion as i was. i'm not on a specific side nemore because when it comes down to it, none of us truly know [I]all[/I] of the story in it's entirety, but what really pissed me off is when Terri passed away, her husband wouldn't let her parents go see her. i mean- sure he may have his reasons as to why he wanted Terri's feeding tube removed, but there is no excuse that can justify him keeping Terri's parents away when she was dying- [I]no[/I] excuse! you just don't do that.