Terri Shiavo, let her live!

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='gaarasgirl90][FONT=Fixedsys][COLOR=DarkRed]Well they aren't asking wether or not you would want to live like that! This is her, she can't say wether or not she would want to die and you all just assumn that she would, but what if you knew that maybe you could be normal again?[/COLOR']. [/FONT][/quote]
But there's no chance for her to be normal again. Even if she recovered from the coma, she would be a vegetable - she has brain damage severe enough to restrict her from ever recovering. And really, ask yourself - would you want to live like that? You've had brain damage for nigh on 15 years, you can't feed yourself, you can't walk yourself, you're pretty much a mental incompetent. In essence you're dead weight, you're useless. I don't know anyone, really, who'd be comfortable with picturing themself in that existence. As many have stated, they'd prefer to be dead.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Missa]

I would have to agree with James.

This is not a case of good vs. evil. The problem is that two different parties have two very different ideas of what is humane behavior. Her parents think it is inhumane to let their daughter die, while her husband thinks it is inhumane to let her live in such a state. Neither party is right or wrong, they [B]both[/B] have very [I]valid[/I] arguements.

[DeathBug]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1'] Ask yourself what kind of life it is to not know anything. Or to have no control over yourself. .[/size][/quote]

Well, that could describe the condition of mental patients, the very old, the mentally retarded and alzhiemer's patients. Should we kill them?

[eleanor]

[color=darkslateblue] It's a sad and miserable case, only because of the unfortunate event that has happened to this women and how so many people are fighting about it.

But, seriously. The Supreme Court has rejected Schiavo's parents appeal [b]five times[/b]. I know they love their daughter and are following their heart with utmost courage, but sometimes reality will hit you and you'll deal with it. It's not like if they send five more requests, the Justices are randomly going to decide to hear the case. President Bush has already even signed a bill, hoping to help the side he supported (the parents, obviously). It didn't help. Governor Jeb Bush isn't going to be able to do much.

And I will go insane if President Bush does anything to try and bend the judicial system. Washington aides have reported that there will be no additional federal intervention.

But lastly, what do I think? Personally, my gut and first instinct lead me to lean towards the husband's POV. Do not take this and use it against me and call me a cold, heartless ***** who has no value of life. I respect the parents. But my gut moral just makes me support the husband more. [/color]

[Harry]

Terri Shiavo is only alive in the mechanical sense. The top half of her brain is dead and has been dead for 14 years. She does not feel anything, she is not conscious. She even doesn't know she's starving to death and getting dehydrated. She is gone, it's time to pull the plug on her.

This isn't a case of her being disabled, this is a case of her being gone forever. Every specialist they've brought in has said she's gone and never coming back. This really shouldn't be an issue of whether or not she should remain living.

[eleanor]

[color=darkslateblue] Ok, I think that Terri's parents are just annoying me. They have been denied nearly 30 legal opinions, and now with only so much times left, they are trying to pressure Gov. Bush into doing something. In the past 24 hours, they have been denied three more legal opinions. Is she is going to die, just let her die peacefully. [/color]

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE=Harry]
This isn't a case of her being disabled, this is a case of her being gone forever. Every specialist they've brought in has said she's gone and never coming back. This really shouldn't be an issue of whether or not she should remain living.[/QUOTE]

That's not entirely true, Harry.

I'm disturbed that this has become such a political issue. Politics have no place in medicine, IMO. I really think it should be up to the doctors. I understand that many people considered in PVS and locked-in syndrome have recovered in similar situations (though not entirely recovered, obviously).

I think Siren, James, and Baron are all well meaning in their responses to this incident, but I would disagree with their diagnosis of Terri. The extent of our knowledge on PVS is the degree to which the doctors understand her condition. Some doctors [i]do[/i] say she is recoverable. As far as I can tell, Michael Schiavo has prevented any form of rehabilitation in the last decade and a half.

I think that Terri should undergo rehabilitation, and if no progress is visible; then they should let her pass. We must understand that when considering a life, it is important that if there is [i]any[/i] dissenting opinion that may qualify a claim that she is alive, it is the medical community's responsibility to acknowledge that claim.

Here's the dilemma, the doctors hired independently (not by the parents or Michael) are concluding she's in PVS. If it is conclusive and irrefutable (which appears it is not, at least yet) then I would support the decision to take her off of feeding.

Here's another dilemma. Considering the progress of medical technology, who's to say our treatments, therapy, and healthcare may not advance to the point of being able to assist someone such as Terri who may be in PVS?? It's hard to say, but in another 15 years perhaps we could be restoring brain tissues using stem cells, or new forms of therapy?? Maybe in 15 years, if she regains a feeding tube, we could be reading a book written by Terri Schaivo.

Overall, I'm mostly frustrated that the courts are tying everyone's hands in this situation. When it comes to our judicial system and medicine... well, that's oil and water.

[kaisha]

I think that her parents are just being selfish now, why don't they give up and let her die. I mean, she is a vegatable basically (not trying to be mean) so let her go, she would be so much better off.

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='kaisha']I think that her parents are just being selfish now, why don't they give up and let her die. I mean, she is a vegatable basically (not trying to be mean) so let her go, she would be so much better off.[/quote]

Kaisha, you have provided us all with such an incredible insight that I think should bring this thread to a standstill. Your ability to review the opinions of others and the facts that have already been stated in this thread is quite commendable. Even though this post was succinct, it held the important points that really inspire me so rarely... I stand inspired right now. I think the point you presented here is really the definitive one. You've convinced me!

[moonlightshadow]

I don't really have an opinion on this...well not one you would want to hear. :animeswea But I would like to leave you all with a Question:

Would you want to live your life hooked to a machine?

To never go out and explore the world to it's fullest. Even if she comes out of this alive, the future for her is bleek with many bumps and turns she may not be able to make it through. :animesigh

[kaisha]

[QUOTE]Kaisha, you have provided us all with such an incredible insight that I think should bring this thread to a standstill. Your ability to review the opinions of others and the facts that have already been stated in this thread is quite commendable. Even though this post was succinct, it held the important points that really inspire me so rarely... I stand inspired right now. I think the point you presented here is really the definitive one. You've convinced me![/QUOTE]
Its just how I feel, I mean when it comes right down to it shes basically already gone. So why don't her parents put their own feelings aside and think of Terri and what she wants?

[Pagan]

For some reason I find this entire story hilarious. I just shows how stupid we American are. Why do people stand outside the hospital with glasses of water and food if the woman is being fed by a tube. I want them to just let one person in with a glass of water and see what happening.

This lady is a shell. Her mind is gone. What is the point of keeping that body alive. The husband wants to move on, the brother wants to move on, the parents want a shrine. I'm curious to know what our "great president"(hah!!!) and his brother will do, or if they will even step in. I think this could either make him more popular with the conservative or more popular with the liberals which either why works for him.

[eleanor]

[color=darkslateblue] Ugh. THESE are the times when I start to hate protestors.

[i]..."I cannot violate a court order," Bush said after attending Easter Sunday church services. "I don't have powers from the United States Constitution or -- for that matter from the Florida Constitution -- that would allow me to intervene after a decision has been made."

To Terri Schiavo's parents -- who have said Bush should do more to help their daughter -- the governor said: "I can't. I'd love to, but I can't."

The governor has been under public pressure from Bob and Mary Schindler, parents of the 41-year-old brain-damaged woman, and many religious groups to intervene further in the case...

-CNN.com[/i]

It makes me want to rip my hair out, really. We all know how much Terry's parents love her so, but when your own lawyer is telling you that it's over, you've been denied about 30 times, and you have to start pressuring your governor to go against the Constituion...argh.

Another point that this brings up is whether or not Congress should intervene in leading the country's morals. Should they? NO. Now after this, there might be bunch of other people who go to federal government as a last resort and make silly deals out of situations like this. Politics have no place in areas such as this. [/color]

[Afire]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=1][COLOR=RED]First of all; I'm suprised at the misinformation that almost everyone here has with the Terri Shiavo story.
I live in the same area as Terri Shiavo and have been hearing and reading about her as long as I can remember. She was an anorexic. She got the way she is by starving herself. Her potasium level dropped so low that she had a heart attack. Her husband actually went back to school to become a registered nurse so he could care for her properly. He was unpopular with the hospitals from the start, in demanding that she received the right care. It was not a swift decision on his part to remove the feeding tube. He does not get any money if she dies. In fact, he was offered 1 million dollars recently to drop the fight to remove her feeding tube. He refused it. He or Terri's parents are not paying for Terri's medical expenses. Mostly the taxpayers are. I don't think anyone should be making the decision for Terri except her husband. He is the one that will have to live with that decision or die with it. There is no difference with the government declaring who should live...and who should die.
Life should not be in the hands of our government which is extremely powerful and dangerous in size alone. With new advances in medical technology, who's to say people like Terri might live to be 150 or longer? How many people will be on artificial life support then? Who's going to pay for all this? How will people afford necessary
medical treatment and insurance for themselves or their children? How many cannot afford it now? How many people are denied medical attention already because they can't afford it?
If I was Terri, I wouldn't want to live. But then again, would I care? I would hope that, whoever was the one I had chosen to decide my fate, would honor my wishes. I shudder at the thought of lying there with a diaper on, or not being able to swallow a cold drop of water for any amount of time, let alone 15 years or longer. listening to the cries of my mother or father. That would be a living hell. Like being trapped in a horrid prison.
I don't think that refusing 'artificial' life support should ever be questioned. If what happened to Terri, happened to someone I loved and I knew they didn't want to live in that condition...I would try to honor their wishes and hope for a miracle. If I knew for sure that they wanted to live like that...I would push nutrients into their stomach through a tube and take care of them the best that I could and hope for a miracle or cure. I wouldn't want anyone else involved unless they were helping me honor that persons wishes. This story is not about left or right political veiws. It's about artificial life support and personal choice.
I think after Terri passes away it, this story will become even more political now that it's so widespread and controversial. Politicians will see the outcome of what peoples reactions are and try to use it to their advantage in the future. Not because they actually gave a crap about her.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[kaisha]

Well looks like its over now. [url]http://www.comcast.net/news/national/index.jsp?cat=DOMESTIC&fn=/2005/03/28/92450.html[/url]

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
I think that Terri should undergo rehabilitation, and if no progress is visible; then they should let her pass. We must understand that when considering a life, it is important that if there is [i]any[/i] dissenting opinion that may qualify a claim that she is alive, it is the medical community's responsibility to acknowledge that claim.

Here's the dilemma, the doctors hired independently (not by the parents or Michael) are concluding she's in PVS. If it is conclusive and irrefutable (which appears it is not, at least yet) then I would support the decision to take her off of feeding.

Here's another dilemma. Considering the progress of medical technology, who's to say our treatments, therapy, and healthcare may not advance to the point of being able to assist someone such as Terri who may be in PVS?? It's hard to say, but in another 15 years perhaps we could be restoring brain tissues using stem cells, or new forms of therapy?? Maybe in 15 years, if she regains a feeding tube, we could be reading a book written by Terri Schaivo.

Overall, I'm mostly frustrated that the courts are tying everyone's hands in this situation. When it comes to our judicial system and medicine... well, that's oil and water.[/QUOTE]
Is there really apoint for keeping her alive though? The way she's keeping it up she could live for another 50 years maybe. Her brain is pratically dead, and from what I've heard at best she might be able to eat on her own. This will sound cold and callous, but it's really not cost effective to keep her alive or rehabilitate her.

[Kamuro]

I havn't been following the case very closely either, but, its hard to avoid it, everytime you turn on the TV you see her face, and I really think its terrible, if they're going to take her feeding tube out, and starve her, I don't understand why they don't just give her lethal injection, or some other method, I know its an ethics issue, but if shes going to die is all the suffering really needed?

anyway, if it was my choice, to let her live or die, which its not (the whole point I made in the paragraph above), I would choose for her to die, I seem to always put myself in the persons position, seeing things from different points of view often makes the picture clearer, and if I was suffering, and dying, I would much rather die, then have the people closest to me, who I love the most, argue and fight over my life, which was never their's in the first place

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Harry']Is there really apoint for keeping her alive though?[/quote]

Well, if recovery is possible, yes.

[quote name='Harry'] The way she's keeping it up she could live for another 50 years maybe. Her brain is pratically dead, and from what I've heard at best she might be able to eat on her own.[/quote]

Her brain is severely damaged. I was supporting the idea of taking her off food initially. However, there are some doctors that apparently will be able to rehabilitate her; to what extent I do not know.

[quote name='Harry']This will sound cold and callous, but it's really not cost effective to keep her alive or rehabilitate her.[/quote]

No, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, Harry. I should remind you that the U.S. (at least) medical community isn't ever going to consider "costs" over the possibility of saving someones life. Think about it.

Is saving a drug overdose cost effective? He most likely will end up ODing again (statistically) and killing himself.

Is a triple bypass surgery on a 40 year old who's clogged his arteries from all the fatty foods cost effective?

How about those patients with locked-in syndrome? Sure, a good amount never come out of their situation, however, that minority that is rehabilitated... I think it would be worth any price to a loving family.

Besides, doesn't Mr. Shiavo have a couple million from the malpractice suit??

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]First of all please forgive the punctuation as I am currently 1.incapable of using the caps for extended periods and 2 not in ny.

I'm too lazy to go and read thru 3 pages, not to mention I don't have that much time. But I really think that Terri's parents are being selfish and thoughtless about their daughter's life and wishes. No parent in their right mind would want to see their child in a vegatative state for 15 years and not wish for her to be in a better place than on a feeding tube in a hospital bed unable to move.

I believe that the schivo's are just looking for some publicity for supporting their child's vegatative state for so long.It's cruel to let someone exist like that for so long.

Ok, flame me![/color]

[size=1][color=#ff6600]CHW, you are not exempt from our rules. Please take the extra time to punctuate your post properly. Everyone else manages. -Lore[/color][/size]\

[color=darkviolet]The shift key seriously didn't work last night, but I fixed it today. Sorry for all the trouble[/color]

[Afire]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=RED]My heart goes out to Terri Schiavo's parents. To them, Terri is their baby and always will be. She has been in an infantile like state for 15 years. They have cared for her and have had her cared for like an infant.
Terri wasn't an infant when she met and married Michael Schiavo. His carrying out what he believes to be her fully adult wishes to not ever want to be kept alive on 'artificial life support' should not make him a villain. It doesn't violate her religious or legal rights. There was only a legal mistake made in Terri not having a living will or her story would have been over long ago.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]i'm too lazy to go and read thru 3 pages, not to mention i don't have that much time. but i really think that terri's parents are being selfish and thoughtless about their daughter's life and wishes. no parent in their right mind would want to see their child in a vegatative state for 15 years and not wish for her to be in a better place than on a feeding tube in a hospital bed unable to move.

i believe that the schivo's are just looking for some publicity for supporting their child's vegatative state for so long. it's cruel to let someone exist like that for so long.

ok, flame me![/color][/QUOTE]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=RED]Not all parents are in their right minds.
I may be sick for even thinking this, but what if they enjoy their daughter in the state that she's in? There are people who are control freaks who love controlling their children. This would be the ideal situation. What if Terri was tired of trying to control her own life past her parents control? An eating disorder caused her heart attack and condition. Eating disorders are a control issue. What if somehow, spiritually...she just gave up? What if something all clicked subconciously in that family that 'created' this situation? There is so much more to life than we know.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
Besides, doesn't Mr. Shiavo have a couple million from the malpractice suit??[/QUOTE]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=2][COLOR=RED](According to the St. Petersburg Times this morning):
In 1992 Terri and Michael Schiavo were awarded $2 million dollars in a malpractice suit.

Terri's share: $1,389,600.
$53,854.47 Terri has paid in legal costs.
$516,880 Terri has paid in Attorney's fees.
$173,510.84 Terri has paid to doctors and health care providers.
$640,354.69 is what Terri's guardianship received.
Out of that:
$358,434 in fees were paid to attorney George Felos.
$80,309 in fees were paid to attorney Deborah Bushnell
$90,000 has been used for other nonmedical payments, including other attorneys involved in the case.
The total in Terri's account in recent weeks? About $70,000.

Michael Schiavo's share: $610,400.
What Michael Schiavo's total award may have been assuming he paid the same percentage of his award to attorney fees as did his wife: $360,000. However this figure cannot be verified. Considering attorney fees, among other things in his fight to carry out what he believes to be Terri's wishes, how much of that $360,000 do you think Michael Schiavo has left?[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Gelgoog Pilot]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
I'm disturbed that this has become such a political issue. Politics have no place in medicine, IMO. I really think it should be up to the doctors. I understand that many people considered in PVS and locked-in syndrome have recovered in similar situations (though not entirely recovered, obviously).
[/QUOTE]

*applauds Drix*

YES! Finally someone says it. This case has nothing to do with politics in fact...I'm wondering why it has so much air time as it is. Why is it on world news for God's sake? I personally don't want to hear about how a women has been in a coma most of her life, and her parents want to keep her even though she's still in a vegitative state, over and over again. Once was enough. I'm saying let her go. She'll die anyway, as will everyone else, let her go since she can't really get anything good from life unless in goes through her IV.

Take it this way...the last time the government got involved with medicine...we find drug prices soaring...nothing like haveing the pharmacidical cartels run our country and vise versa.

I don't want to sound harsh...I value life, but is this really the way anyone would want to go through existance. I wouldn't.

As far as the case is going, the parents have lost. The fact that they need to show tapes from 10+ years ago to prove that she isn't completely gone is fact enough. She twitched 10 years ago...get over it. Her partner in life has requested to end her suffering, I'd allow him that right. I'm sure the man wants to go on with his as well.

[Kamuro]

I agree, pro-longing her suffering is also pro-longing the suffering of those around her, and its sad that it has become so public, when its such a private matter :animestun

[Harry]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
No, you are perfectly entitled to your opinion, Harry. I should remind you that the U.S. (at least) medical community isn't ever going to consider "costs" over the possibility of saving someones life. Think about it.

Is saving a drug overdose cost effective? He most likely will end up ODing again (statistically) and killing himself.

Is a triple bypass surgery on a 40 year old who's clogged his arteries from all the fatty foods cost effective?

How about those patients with locked-in syndrome? Sure, a good amount never come out of their situation, however, that minority that is rehabilitated... I think it would be worth any price to a loving family.
[/QUOTE]
Most of those examples though aren't nearly as lop-sided as Schiavo though. The top half of her brain is dead. There's 0 chance of recovering from that.

[Ozymandius Jones]

[COLOR=DarkOrange]Well, one way or another, it's over now.

Terry Shiavo died earlier this morning. Her parents were denied access to her bedside at her last minutes.

I've been silent on this subject, because otherwise I knew I'd get into howling arguements. I didn't post to avoid these arguements not because I am afraid of arguing, but because I don't trust myself not to make a flaming horrible person out of myself while I am arguing.

The poor woman is dead now, starved to death. I don't know whether her dieing is the issue. Maybe her husband was right, and she wouldn't have wanted to live. Maybe her parents were right, and a travesty was just commited.

The main problem is that we spend millions and millions to save people from starving in Africa - and let a woman die of it here. Starvation is suffering. It's not a nice way to go...

Why did it have to go on this long? I'm mad at both parties involved right now. If they really loved their daughter so much, couldn't they have let something else be done to her, instead of it taking [i]two WEEKS[/i] for her to die? If he really loved her, how could he watch her STARVE to death?

I apologize if this isn't coherent...I'm so confused at the moment. [/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet] I think it's alwful that she was allowed to starve to death.You can't even do that to an animal. But heck, do it to a human and it's considered allowing the person to die peacefully.

I didn't know that she died this morning, I've been busy packing to drive up to New York tomorrow morning. I do feel bad that her parents lost their child, I think that they should have allowed her to die in a more humane state than what was allowed to happen. My God, allowing a person to starve to death?[/color]