Anime A few things that have always bothered me... (unrealistic views)

[Bloodseeker]

One of the things that many anime fans rave about is anime's tendancy to focus on realistic human nature with their characters and accurate philosophy with everything else. Frankly though, I don't think that anime is very accurate at all with these things. Obviously there's exceptions, but generally...

*minor spoilers for Xenogears*
I was just restarting Xenogears and I'm at the part right after Fei blows up Lohan. Fei had lived in Lohan for three years. During that time, he befriended all of the villagers, played with the kids, and was apparently just a joy to be around. Everybody seemed to like Fei. When gears attacked the village, the guy had rissen to fight against what he thought were enemies from the neighboring country raiding his village. However, during the fight, the gear that he was fighting in malfunctioned (as far as Fei and the villagers know at that point) and blew away the village. When he woke up to find the survivors, there were no comforting words from the villagers that he had befriended, nor was there a hesitant yet inevitable exile. Instead, they bluntly called him a murderer and all but drove him out. Over-dramatization, anyone?
*end spoilers*

Lets say that a cop fires at a group that's about to execute a hostage. But something's wrong and the hammer locks. A few seconds later, while the gun was pointing at the ground, the hammer unlocks and the bullet ricochets and hits tightly compressed gas heater. The bullet causes a spark that causes an explosion that take out that section of the room and four hostages with it. One dead hostage's dad is standing outside. How do you think that he'd react if he were your average half-way sensible 35 year old man? Sure he'd be mad at the cop, but he'd realize that it was a malfuntion from the weapon of a man that was trying to save his kid's life and the unfortunate chain of events that followed that killed his kid, not the incompetence or malice of the cop.

And what about anime's general view on war? If you've ever watched any Gundam besides G, you know that it portrayes war as some clash of human emotions, just causes, and revenge. All I've got to say is SENSE WHEN?! War is just a bloody and expensive business transaction. The rich guys use their influence to send a bunch of soldiers to kill people so that they can gain what the targets have. Every war that I can think of was either a grab for power, influence, and territory and/or a grab for another nations rescources. WWII was Hitler's attempt at gaining control of Europe, the Crusades were the church's attempt to expand their influence, Desert Storm was Iraq's attempt at gaining territory and rescources, the American Civil War was a the attempt by a few men at snatching territory for their own country. In the most recent case of the war in Iraq, America wants oil deals and another foot hold in the Middle East. To glorify war as something more than one entity's attempt to gain profit is stupid and a show of just how gullable people are when it comes to the forked silver tongues of politicians.

There are a lot of other things that anime screws up in on the regular basis as well. When was the last time that you saw an actual couple stay in the shy stage for months on end? When they become close, don't the outer walls pretty much drop? Or when was the last time that you ran into a semi-intelligent person that could have their entire life philosophy destroyed by an *** kicking and one stupid speech? The list goes on.

I'm still a fan of anime, but I think that anime "realism" is given more credit than it deserves. Can you honestly call these views on life realistic?

[SunfallE]

[QUOTE=Bloodseeker]*minor spoilers for Xenogears*
I was just restarting Xenogears and I'm at the part right after Fei blows up Lohan. Fei had lived in Lohan for three years. During that time, he befriended all of the villagers, played with the kids, and was apparently just a joy to be around. Everybody seemed to like Fei. When gears attacked the village, the guy had rissen to fight against what he thought were enemies from the neighboring country raiding his village. However, during the fight, the gear that he was fighting in malfunctioned (as far as Fei and the villagers know at that point) and blew away the village. When he woke up to find the survivors, there were no comforting words from the villagers that he had befriended, nor was there a hesitant yet inevitable exile. Instead, they bluntly called him a murderer and all but drove him out. Over-dramatization, anyone?
*end spoilers*

Lets say that a cop fires at a group that's about to execute a hostage. But something's wrong and the hammer locks. A few seconds later, while the gun was pointing at the ground, the hammer unlocks and the bullet ricochets and hits tightly compressed gas heater. The bullet causes a spark that causes an explosion that take out that section of the room and four hostages with it. One dead hostage's dad is standing outside. How do you think that he'd react if he were your average half-way sensible 35 year old man? Sure he'd be mad at the cop, but he'd realize that it was a malfuntion from the weapon of a man that was trying to save his kid's life and the unfortunate chain of events that followed that killed his kid, not the incompetence or malice of the cop.

And what about anime's general view on war? If you've ever watched any Gundam besides G, you know that it portrayes war as some clash of human emotions, just causes, and revenge. All I've got to say is SENSE WHEN?! War is just a bloody and expensive business transaction. The rich guys use their influence to send a bunch of soldiers to kill people so that they can gain what the targets have. Every war that I can think of was either a grab for power, influence, and territory and/or a grab for another nations rescources. WWII was Hitler's attempt at gaining control of Europe, the Crusades were the church's attempt to expand their influence, Desert Storm was Iraq's attempt at gaining territory and rescources, the American Civil War was a the attempt by a few men at snatching territory for their own country. In the most recent case of the war in Iraq, America wants oil deals and another foot hold in the Middle East. To glorify war as something more than one entity's attempt to gain profit is stupid and a show of just how gullable people are when it comes to the forked silver tongues of politicians.

There are a lot of other things that anime screws up in on the regular basis as well. When was the last time that you saw an actual couple stay in the shy stage for months on end? When they become close, don't the outer walls pretty much drop? Or when was the last time that you ran into a semi-intelligent person that could have their entire life philosophy destroyed by an *** kicking and one stupid speech? The list goes on.

I'm still a fan of anime, but I think that anime "realism" is given more credit than it deserves. Can you honestly call these views on life realistic?[/QUOTE]


I would have to argue that on some level the views are very realistic. Take the first example from Xenogears. Regardless of whether or not it was an accident, all they knew is that his attempts to help resulted in destruction. There are always going to be people who in the initial dispair of loss will find someone else to blame. Realistically in such a situation after time there will be some of the people who after things have settled down would realize that their blame was missplaced and will try to make up. In general we are talking about a herd mentality here, people will react and do things in a group that they would never do if alone.

For the second example about a cop trying to help a hostage. Can you honestly believe that the Dad is not going to blame the cop? Very few people can think rationally when they have lost a loved one. Having lost one myself I know just how painful that is. Such powerful emotions are difficult to handle and for some people the only answer is to find blame. There are some who would blame the person who took them hostage and then there are those who will blame the cop claiming he didn't handle the situation properly. This I know from my uncle who is a sherriff. It has amazed me the amount of people who absoutlely refused to even consider it was an accident in such situations.

Now as for the war view. Yes I agree war is an excuse for others to take what isn't theirs. Yet within that war there will be good people caught up in it that for them it is a clash of emotions, just causes and revenge. Take WWII with Hitler. It was a power play for him to take over the world and the people he dragged into it were people fighting to save others *a just cause* and those who wanted him dead for the people he caused to be killed *the revenge angle* If you are looking for a different anime war movie try watching "Now & Then, Here & There" It does have some werid anime twists, but it does accurately potray just how senseless war really is in a way. Fair warning though it is a bit intense unlike the other series.

Now about a couple staying shy for the first few months, that is something that happens far more than you might think. So many people get married because they think they should and so many get married without truly knowing if they love the person they married. It's part of why the divorce rate is so high. So I don't find the idea of a couple being shy at first unexpected. In fact I bet it happens alot. Espically in religious situations where children are expected by parents and peers to get married at a young age, before they are mature enough to truly handle such a life changing event.

Now having your philosphy distroyed by one speech. That too is common. So many people grow up stating beliefs that they never developed on their own. They are simply following what they have heard others say. So many people have belief systems and philosphy that they never challenged or tried to expand. It's easy to knock someone down someone who's philoshpy is not firmly placed. How else could so many people stay in destructive relationships? Their sense of self is dependant upon others opinions.

As for my opinions about this, I've based most of the responses upon personal experiance and what I learned in my Ethics class and Psychology classes.

Now in general, based on what you have said it sounds like you are the type to question and not take things at face value. I'm glad to see that. It's nice to see people who would think things through instead of immediatly blaming others for how things have gone in their lives. :animesmil Sometimes it seems like there aren't enough people like that. :D

[Bloodseeker]

[quote name='SunfallE']I would have to argue that on some level the views are very realistic. Take the first example from Xenogears. Regardless of whether or not it was an accident, all they knew is that his attempts to help resulted in destruction. There are always going to be people who in the initial dispair of loss will find someone else to blame. Realistically in such a situation after time there will be some of the people who after things have settled down would realize that their blame was missplaced and will try to make up. In general we are talking about a herd mentality here, people will react and do things in a group that they would never do if alone.[/quote]

True enough, I guess. People will usually follow the idiots in those situations.

[quote name='SunfallE']For the second example about a cop trying to help a hostage. Can you honestly believe that the Dad is not going to blame the cop? Very few people can think rationally when they have lost a loved one. Having lost one myself I know just how painful that is. Such powerful emotions are difficult to handle and for some people the only answer is to find blame. There are some who would blame the person who took them hostage and then there are those who will blame the cop claiming he didn't handle the situation properly. This I know from my uncle who is a sherriff. It has amazed me the amount of people who absoutlely refused to even consider it was an accident in such situations.[/quote]

So have I, and its not so powerful that it completely clouds your reason. When my cousin strangled himself, there were a thousand reasons why my aunt could have been blamed. She was unattentive in so many ways, and there was so much more that she could have done. But I knew that when it came down to it, she wasn't to blame, and that it was my cousins fault for blowing things out of porportion and not being able to cope with his own situation and bad health. I've seen people in worse situations pull through, but the pathetic bastard couldn't take it, so he killed himself and broke his mom's heart. I realized that that was the truth. But maybe I'm different from most. Who knows.

[quote name='SunfallE']Now as for the war view. Yes I agree war is an excuse for others to take what isn't theirs. Yet within that war there will be good people caught up in it that for them it is a clash of emotions, just causes and revenge. Take WWII with Hitler. It was a power play for him to take over the world and the people he dragged into it were people fighting to save others *a just cause* and those who wanted him dead for the people he caused to be killed *the revenge angle* If you are looking for a different anime war movie try watching "Now & Then, Here & There" It does have some werid anime twists, but it does accurately potray just how senseless war really is in a way. Fair warning though it is a bit intense unlike the other series.[/quote]

There's nothing just or extraordinary about following your survival instinct, which is exactly what the Allies did in WWII. They wanted to live on and keep their way of life and their governments, so they fought the power that was trying to take it away from them. It was just self-defense. Again, I don't see anything particularly just about defending yourself.

[quote name='SunfallE']Now about a couple staying shy for the first few months, that is something that happens far more than you might think. So many people get married because they think they should and so many get married without truly knowing if they love the person they married. It's part of why the divorce rate is so high. So I don't find the idea of a couple being shy at first unexpected. In fact I bet it happens alot. Espically in religious situations where children are expected by parents and peers to get married at a young age, before they are mature enough to truly handle such a life changing event.[/quote]

That's not the kind of shyness that I'm talking about. I'm talking about blushing and months of unfortable silence, which is the kind of shyness that many anime characters seem to suffer from, and I've never seen it last for more than a month in a relationship. But I suppose that a breed of shyness is responsible for divource rates. Divourse rates are so high because social masks are becoming more common. (that, and because divourse isn't the taboo that it used to be) As a matter of fact, it seems like nowadays almost everybody covers up their real personality in favor of what they want people to see. People put on their social face for their crush, act nicer and/or tougher than they really are, and fall in love with each other's false images. They get married before the wall is forced down, and when the wall finally comes down, they see each others ugly sides and can't cope with the real deal. Also, being around someone on the regular basis can really grind your nerves, so in order to get away from them, they file a divource and seperate. I suppose at the bottom of the line, the high divourse rate is caused by modern people's inability to forgive, cope with, and help remedy other people's flaws.

[quote name='SunfallE']Now having your philosphy destroyed by one speech. That too is common. So many people grow up stating beliefs that they never developed on their own. They are simply following what they have heard others say. So many people have belief systems and philosphy that they never challenged or tried to expand. It's easy to knock someone down someone who's philoshpy is not firmly placed. How else could so many people stay in destructive relationships? Their sense of self is dependant upon others opinions.[/quote]

Some people do have wishy-washy philosphies that can be altered by a single good speech (I don't even count those as philosophies), but the Kenshin bad guys all have strong philosophies based from their experiences. That's not the type of philosophy that can be whiped out from a single failure and a speech.

[quote name='SunfallE']As for my opinions about this, I've based most of the responses upon personal experiance and what I learned in my Ethics class and Psychology classes.[/quote]

Classes. Don't think that a PhD alone makes you an expert. You planning on becoming a counseler? My experiences tell me that counselers hardly ever have any idea of what their talking about. My old ones made all the wrong assumptions and tried to tie all of my troubles to my father when I was kid, when in fact he was the source of none of them. They never dropped it until he came back, then they just acted confused. Just make sure that you don't make similar mistakes with your patients.

[quote name='SunfallE']Now in general, based on what you have said it sounds like you are the type to question and not take things at face value. I'm glad to see that. It's nice to see people who would think things through instead of immediatly blaming others for how things have gone in their lives. :animesmil Sometimes it seems like there aren't enough people like that. :D[/quote]

Seriously. Conformists are the people that give authority the freedom to be corrupt. There's a reason why so many dictatorships try to get rid of the intellectuals, you know. They look behind the nice speeches and shaky claims to see what the leaders are really up to, and when some get pushed far enough, they take action. Its sad that a lot of people have to fall on their faces before they start looking behind the curtains.

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='Bloodseeker']And what about anime's general view on war? If you've ever watched any Gundam besides G, you know that it portrayes war as some clash of human emotions, just causes, and revenge. All I've got to say is SENSE WHEN?! War is just a bloody and expensive business transaction. The rich guys use their influence to send a bunch of soldiers to kill people so that they can gain what the targets have. Every war that I can think of was either a grab for power, influence, and territory and/or a grab for another nations rescources. WWII was Hitler's attempt at gaining control of Europe, the Crusades were the church's attempt to expand their influence, Desert Storm was Iraq's attempt at gaining territory and rescources, the American Civil War was a the attempt by a few men at snatching territory for their own country. In the most recent case of the war in Iraq, America wants oil deals and another foot hold in the Middle East. To glorify war as something more than one entity's attempt to gain profit is stupid and a show of just how gullable people are when it comes to the forked silver tongues of politicians.[/quote]

Funny, I felt most Gundam series did a good job explaining the truth about war. Sure, the leaders of both sides of the war were supporting it with reasons. So were many of the soldiers. But the thing is that in reality the different sides of war do come up with cause-and-effect reasons for war, even though those reasons are just bullsh**. In Mobile Suit Gundam, Amuro knew that the war was just pointless violence. In Gundam SEED, Kira did so as well until Flay started to brainwash him. Life has many angles, many truths and falsehoods, and Gundam does a good job of portraying that.

If you think anime generally glorifies war, go watch Grave of the Fireflies, one of the greatest anti-war films of all time. Remember to bring a box of tissues with you, though. It pulls no punches showing the grim reality of war.

[AzureWolf]

[COLOR=blue]Well, here's the first problem: Xenogears isn't an anime. It's a video game. In addition, you are using a company whose "cheesy-ness factor" was at an all-time high during the PSX era. FF7, FF8, and Xenogears all had extremely cheesy storylines.

Why is it important to make a distinction between anime and video games? Animes must have a good [B]storyline[/B] to be considered good, while games must have good [B]gameplay[/B] to be considered good. The primary target of the two mediums are different.

As for your guy and the gun idea, I imagine that the cop is dead since his gun didn't go off. Does it even matter if the dad blames some dead guy? What is the relevance to which dead person some schmo blames the death of his son on? I'm not really understanding why this is important. Perhaps if you actually mention the anime in which something like this happened so I can get a better grasp of what you are trying to say?

And wars are [B]not[/B] just an attempt for power/land/whatever. You mentioned the Civil War. Realize that the United States, already one nation, had no land or greater power to be gained from this battle. It was an internal struggle, and I fail to see the logic in saying that they were trying to influence themselves, as that's what a nation is supposed to do - war or not.

As far as anime goes, if the show is centered around a person, of course they aren't going to focus on "the big picture" of war and focus on the main character's reasons (if any) for being part of the war. [B]Grave of the Fireflies[/B] is the best example, as you have someone who is in the middle of this huge war, but his main concern is not the victory of Japan.

When you mention shy couples, what anime are you talking about? It would really be helpful if you supported all your points with examples.

Here's the biggest problem I'm seeing with all these complaints: they aren't exclusive to anime. You yourself started out with citing a video game. There are millions upon millions of movies and... "real-people" shows that have these problems. [B]Saving Private Ryan[/B] wasn't about the war, it was about one guy. [B]Scheindler's List[/B] wasn't about the war, it was about the concentration camps. In both those examples, they are taking a piece of the war and expounding on it, giving the audience a truer experience than some textbook with "the big picture" could. If you were in a war, you wouldn't be seeing the big, mindless picture that this war is about: it would be more on the scale of an individual, which you are.

Blaming other people? Any teen angst drama will show you that.

I am, however, in complete agreement with your first paragraph. Convoluted and extremely sophist shows are considered the holy ground of anime. There's no substance, but because there is a false garb of complexity around it, it is praised as something that can't be wrong. However, when you ask a fan to actually elaborate or explain what the hell the anime is talking about, you'll realize how ridiculous some points get.

Anime fans need to wake up and realize that some animes just aren't as deep as they make them out to be. Just because you don't understand an anime doesn't make it a richly-complex, philosophical anime. They are convoluted so you don't notice the flaws. Remember, you aren't dumber than some cartoon show in Japan. :p[/COLOR]

[SunfallE]

[quote name='Bloodseeker']Classes. Don't think that a PhD alone makes you an expert. You planning on becoming a counseler? My experiences tell me that counselers hardly ever have any idea of what their talking about. My old ones made all the wrong assumptions and tried to tie all of my troubles to my father when I was kid, when in fact he was the source of none of them. They never dropped it until he came back, then they just acted confused. Just make sure that you don't make similar mistakes with your patients.[/quote]

No I am not becoming a counseler. My parents got divorced, I myself have been abused and attacked by others. I took the classes in a desire to help myself understand why other people could behave in such a fashion. I did go to counseling and felt it wasn't enough to help me understand. Though I feel I was lucky as the counseler was actually really nice and helpful.

As for the shyness and philosphy being attacked, perhaps you could list the actual anime you are reffering to and I would understand better the type of shyness and philosphy you are talking about. :animesmil

I do agree with what AzureWolf said: [COLOR=Blue]Anime fans need to wake up and realize that some animes just aren't as deep as they make them out to be. Just because you don't understand an anime doesn't make it a richly-complex, philosophical anime[/COLOR] I have seen shows that I felt fell into that catagory.