Writing Punctuation and Writing

[Lady Asphyxia]

[size=2][font=Arial Narrow]What is your view on punctuation in writing? Recently, both my beta readers [basically an editor] have gone through my work, and 'corrected' all my contractions; they marked [color=red]he'd[/color][color=black] as being [/color][color=red]he would[/color][color=black] and [color=red]shouldn't[/color] as being [color=red]should not[/color]. [/color][color=black]I understand that there is a place for this more formal use of words, particularly in business letters, but in my mind, my style of writing is quite informal, and the use of 'was not' in a first person monologue such as [i][color=seagreen]Pity it wasn?t me[/color][/i] seems to break the flow of the sentence. [/color][/font][/size]
[font=Arial Narrow][size=2][color=black][font=Verdana][/font][/color][/size][/font]
[color=black][font=Verdana][font=Arial Narrow][size=2]Of course, this is just one example. When you write, are there any punctuation quirks that you have, or quirks that annoy you? How are you taught to use punctuation in your country? Have you ever experimented with punctuation when writing; left out quotation marks for dialogue, capitalised every noun, ended each sentence with a capital?[/size][/font] [/font][/color]

[James]

[color=#B0251E]I think there are definite rules to writing, when it comes to punctuation and so on. But in the case you mentioned here, if it was a monologue, then I think it doesn't matter whether you use "he'd" or "he would". Afterall, dialogue/monologue is all about the characters themselves and in many novels, you'll find that authors deliberately skew the writing to create a certain accent or something like that.

So this can be a problem with people who are editing your work. They have to strike a balance between correcting things you've intentioned (such as a certain style of writing with dialogue or monologue), while simultaneously ensuring that your English is correct in general.

I don't really know if I have any quirks, except that I probably use certain words more often than others now and then. But I think everyone does that to some extent anyway. Other than that, I don't think I do anything that would be considered bad English or something (except that I tend to write in "international English" rather than American English, but that's another story and it depends who you are writing for/talking to).[/color]

[Godelsensei]

I tend to make full use of the comma; that is: I use it whenever possible, even if I could feasibly do without one. Because Comma needs love, too, even if Apostrophe is the most misunderstood one, Exclamation Mark the most abused, and the Colon twins (Colon and Semi-Colon) the most frequently neglected.

I hate it when people misuse punctuation, writing it off as something "unimportant". I don't think I need to go into the dramatic difference one or two commas can have on the meaning of an entire paragraph, so I wont. However, I will point out that, whenever I see something in the vein of, "I have a dog, his name is Ralph," or, "We fixed the server, everything is back online," or, "I hate that guy, he's such a moron," I feel like hunting the perpetrator down, burning their house to the ground, and killing them. Or at least force-feeding them language text-books. Either way.

Because [i]the comma is not a conjunction[/i]. Do not use it in the place of one! It is a lazy, crude, utterly infantile mockery of such hard-working words/phrases as "so", "however", "and", as well as my two best buddies, the Colon twins.

Why use a comma when you could just as easily put to work your pal, Semi-Colon? Why be content with, "I have a dog, his name is Ralph," and a life of eternal mediocrity, when you could go with, "I have a dog; his name is Ralph," and, therein, be not only correct, but open-minded, sympathetic, and downright [i]classy[/i]?
The only excuse I can think of for this gratuitous abuse of the English language is, simply, "I don't speak English!"
After all, even the stupid can punctuate. And if they can't, they're just not trying hard enough--so there.

[Semjaza]

Editing someone's own writing to that extent is a bit ridiculous, I think. Even something as simple as undoing contractions can alter the flow of one's writing. This is especially true of dialogue. If I read something where every last person would say "can not" or "have not", I think I would be a bit turned off. People all speak differently and I think that making note of that in writing is important.

Even in just general stories, excluding dialogue, I do not think it is that big of a deal. I think exactly how formal the bit of writing is should determine whether or not contractions are appropriate. Some people don't seem to that this into consideration whatsoever.

[future girl]

[size=1]I'm of the belief that I learned proper punctuation and grammar only to properly abuse it later on in life. I like to think that 's how a style is born, poetic liberties. I'm absent minded and I tend to do a very sloppy job of proof reading my writing. I have to come back to it several times to get it just right. With that said there are several times where proper grammar just doesn't fit the piece. I suppose what I mean is that it depends on the piece, the motivations behind it and your target reader.[/size]

[Arcadia]

[size=1]It's funny that you mentioned the contractions because there's a girl in my fiction technique class that does the same thing. She marks the contractions in everybody's stories and is of the opinion that while it's entirely appropriate within dialogue, in the actual narration of a story they shouldn't be used. Sometimes they force you to come up with better replacements (like instead of using the same pronouns over and over again, you might say, "the lethargic farmer" or "the twins" or whatever). I personally agree more with Asphee in that I deliberately use them because that's just my style. I think that most people don't really care. In the end, it's definitely up to the author and his or her preference.

There's also this kid in my class who has a tendency to completely forget about punctuation in general, especially with and around any dialogue. He'll have sentences like this:

[quote]"So what" Kevin says going for the cola "he's not the boss of me"[/quote]
It drives me absolutely crazy. >_>;

Something else I've noticed is that a lot of people use the semi-colon wrong. There should be two complete sentences on either side of this particular punctuation mark. A lot of people get into using fragments in the second half, and that's not 'proper grammar'.

Even with that, though, I don't really know how much of this should be totally set in stone because when you write you need to be able to break free of conventions and ignore what everybody else is telling you if you want to find your own style and voice. I guess the question is how much of that should we be allowed to ignore?[/size]

[Semjaza]

I tend to agree with what that girl in your class does, really. Dialogue allows so many things that typically might not be allowed. That's what makes it interesting. In general writing, I try to avoid using contractions outside of the dialogue, but in the end, does it hurt anything? Some writing more or less requires it, but it feels out of place in other writing. Sometimes I think that just makes things seem far more stuffy than they should be taken.

The last question you posed also interests me. Rules can be good things, but at some point they need to be (and likely should be) broken. Again, I think a lot of this just depends on the tone of what is being written. If what I'm writing is just something that's supposed to be "me", why would I write in the most correct, accepted style if that's not how I think? People don't generally think in complete, proper sentences (well, I don't anyway). To write any other way seems less "correct" when I think about it in that sense.

I guess there's a time and a place for everything.

[Dirt]

[b]I think that punctuation is an important part of writing, as it allows the reader to understand what has been written and gives clues as to what influction the writer intended.[/b]

[b]I don't, however, agree that a writer's contractions are part of punctuation-- rather, it's (*ahem*--[i][u]it is...[/u][/i]) a style of writing-- and it adds a certain tone and a beat to the reading of the sentences which, as LA said, is lost when taken apart into the original words.[/b]

[b]To change "shouldn't" to "should not" in someone's monologue is more than just editing for punctuation-- it's (excuse me... [i][u]it is[/u] [/i]) being a grammar nazi.[/b]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]As with everything, there are limits to what extent rules need be applied. As anatema said, if you know the rules, then you know the best ways to break them. Writing needn't be all about sticking solidly to the tenets laid out. Writing is a form of expression, a way to express your views/thoughts/opinions. You shouldn't have to be confined in how you write. As long as you observe the basic requirements of English, then that's all that matters. I liberally sprinkle my writing with comma's and semi-colons; and I think my tone conveys what I feel. I don't really care about the correct circumstances for using semi-colons or colons. And, I don't really think it matters either. Obviously, certain situations call for different tones of writing, but basic punctuation is all you need.[/size]

[Dagger]

I like to think that my punctuation is mostly proper & correct, but I do have some quirks. I use dashes almost as often as Emily Dickinson (heh), and I have a thing for semicolons. And somehow I've gotten in the habit of using ampersands to connect words that seem intrinsically associated and/or close in definition. Although I make certain to edit the ampersands out of formal writing, they tend to stick around when I'm posting at forums and such.

I don't have any real pet peeves when it comes to punctuation--the kind of stuff that bothers me is usually more grammatical in nature (i.e. people using "they" as a sex-neutral singular pronoun when the gender of the one being referred to is unknown).

~Dagger~

[You Don't Care]

When it comes to punctuation, I crave it. [B]Because[/B] when it comes down to it, I want to understand what the heck [B]you're[/B] talking about! If you [B]can't[/B] be perfect, but at least legible, then making the effort to be grammatically correct is all that counts. [B]And[/B] besides, if your posting [B]isn't[/B] legible to the extent of being somewhat grammatically correct, then I would assume that your post [B]is not[/B] worth anyone's time no matter how right you are. If the contents are not intelligent enough, then you [B]cannot[/B] get an intelligent answer back.

By the way, "can not" is one word, not two. But who the heck cares! At least the rest of the message was readable and intelligent.

[Sara]

[quote name='Dagger'] I use dashes almost as often as Emily Dickinson[/quote][font=trebuchet ms]Fan of the dash I may be, but I maintain that such a thing is humanly impossible. Thank goodness.

I get a kick out of the semi-colon, if only for a Dilbert comic I remember reading once: The company has made a keyboard that, strangely enough, is missing the letter "q." This is obviously a problem, and they are trying to figure out how to solve such a dilemma. Wally's suggestion? "Let's get rid of the semi-colon; no one uses that, anyway."

I laughed a [i]lot[/i].

In general, I tend to write in a sort of "middle ground." My formal writing leans toward casual, and my casual writing seems a little stiff--at least, to me. But, hey. [/font]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Lore][font=trebuchet ms']Fan of the dash I may be, but I maintain that such a thing is humanly impossible. Thank goodness.[/font][/quote]
Hehe, yeah, that was a bit of an exaggeration. :catgirl:

I do tend to over-use dashes in creative writing, though. Maybe because I'm predisposed to read really quickly, I find that they break up long sentences for me more clearly than commas or parentheses.

~Dagger~

[Lady Asphyxia]

[font=Arial Narrow][size=2]Mmm. Dagger, I agree with you completely. Commas can get confusing quickly, especially in a long sentence. Dashes are very easily recognised as a pause, I think, because the sentence actually stops -- there's a break in the writing, wheras a comma can be missed.

Has anyone here ever deliberately experimented with punctuation to see how it affects their style of writing? I've written stories where I leave out the quotation marks in dialogue, and I've found that it forces my style of writing to be quite subdued and very flowing...as well as improving my descriptions. If I ever post it anywhere, I'll add the quotation marks simply because it would become cumbersome for the reader to read. [Alas, I'm the kind of person who will skip description and just read the dialogue -- if there are no quotation marks, I'll put the damn book down, lol.]

Anyone else do something like this?[/size][/font]

[MissWem]

[QUOTE=Xy GGu]
By the way, "can not" is one word, not two. But who the heck cares! At least the rest of the message was readable and intelligent.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]I beg to differ. "Can not" is indeed two words, however I do believe that small nuance originated from American English.

I think I'm going to try avoid Godel, because from the way she talks I'm afraid she might stick a colon/semi-colon where it should be in my sentences. That might hurt >_>

Aside from that, I think there's a grammar epidemic.

People, including myself, are either ignorant of the uses of punctuation or are too liberal with it during the wrong times. The thing about English is that unlike other languages, such as Chinese/Japanese that have definitive rules about formal and informal language, is that we have one language that is not confined within the restrictions of formality. That and I feel that schools do not place enough emphasis on learning grammar, assuming they teach grammar. Take my brother for example, he doesn't know where you would put he apostrophe in "Childrens wear" and nor does he know how to properly conjugate singular adjectives into plural form, 'half' into 'halves. To him you would simply add the 's' and you have a plural. He doesn't recall ever being formally taught how to use those basic aspects of the language.

I think, along with grammar and punctuation, [I]spelling[/I] should be added to the list of problems. I realize English makes very little sense in terms of the way a word is spelt and pronounced, but seriously, TRY to spell correctly!! If you can't then use another word or use a dictionary.[/SIZE][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=Lady Asphyxia]Has anyone here ever deliberately experimented with punctuation to see how it affects their style of writing? I've written stories where I leave out the quotation marks in dialogue, and I've found that it forces my style of writing to be quite subdued and very flowing...as well as improving my descriptions. If I ever post it anywhere, I'll add the quotation marks simply because it would become cumbersome for the reader to read. [Alas, I'm the kind of person who will skip description and just read the dialogue -- if there are no quotation marks, I'll put the damn book down, lol.]

Anyone else do something like this?[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]Experiment, yes. Just not to that extreme though and only in creative writing. My teacher can be a bit of a language Nazi since we are her class and we reflect her teachings and therefore we must reflect her positively with our perfect use of the English language. In her opinion she also thinks that we would understand grammar better had we learn Latin. I don't know if it's true. I've never had the opportunity to learn Latin.

I think the only experimentation I can think of is letting my sentences run on more. However that only seems to work well for when I am writing an opinion piece as it allows me to express my sarcasm better.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Mitch]

[QUOTE=DerelictDestiny][COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]
That and I feel that schools do not place enough emphasis on learning grammar, assuming they teach grammar. Take my brother for example, he doesn't know where you would put he apostrophe in "Childrens wear" and nor does he know how to properly conjugate singular adjectives into plural form, 'half' into 'halves. To him you would simply add the 's' and you have a plural. He doesn't recall ever being formally taught how to use those basic aspects of the language.[/quote]

I know the basic parts of speech, and so on, but I'm able to make complex grammatical structures in English I don't understand. It just comes to me naturally, as it does anyone else who has English as their main language. I didn't learn the English language, instead I just started using it as I heard others speak it. While I did learn about English grammar in school and was taught spelling, it still more or less comes naturally to me, and the grammar I learned was very basic. I like being able to use this language and not even know how it works fully, it gives it a sense of wonderment, it gives you a sense of ignorance, but it isn't necessarily ignorance. It's interesting. Eventually I hope to better understand the more complex things in the English language, though.

Language and I have a connection. Neither of us fully understand the other. We have an intrinsic sense about each other. We just know when we're being ourselves or we're not. The English language is just in my head. It's become how I think. It's made me who I am and I've made it who it is. Language lets me express. Without it I'd be looking at everyone and I'd not be able to tell them what's going on inside me, how I feel. Without it I'd not even be able to understand I was feeling anything in the first place. I breathe this language, it's what gives me life: real life. It makes me feel alive. It makes me who I am. It's another part of my individuality. It's entirely flexible and its complexities make it a powerful tool to be the master of. This creation, called language, is truly the work of genius. Without it I'd feel I have no purpose.


[quote][COLOR=DarkRed][SIZE=1]Experiment, yes. Just not to that extreme though and only in creative writing. My teacher can be a bit of a language Nazi since we are her class and we reflect her teachings and therefore we must reflect her positively with our perfect use of the English language. In her opinion she also thinks that we would understand grammar better had we learn Latin. I don't know if it's true. I've never had the opportunity to learn Latin.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I'm in Latin II and it's already taught me some things, grammatically, about langauge I never knew. Before Latin, I knew of the passive voice, but I really didn't [i]know[/i] what it was. Now I more concretely do - it's a sentence where the direct object is the subject, and so in Latin this causes the subject to become ablative. The English equivalent would be to use a prepositional phrase. So, for example: "The dog ate the bone" would be "The bone was ate by the dog." The bone becomes the subject, and the dog becomes a prepositional phrase.

That's mainly what I've learned so far from Latin, but I've also become more familiar with the correct way to use "whom" - it's supposed to be used for the direct object.

As for punctuation, the main thing I have to say is I don't particularily like the semi-colon. I have this bias because of all the things I've read,the semi-colon is used very sparingly. At this point it's just a quirk I sometimes use if I'm in the mood to use it. More often than not, though, I don't use it, even if the sentence I write requires one: it just doesn't feel natural to use it for me, so I don't use it. I seem to use a lot of commas, though, which I think is a problem that plagues a lot of writers. I've gotten to using the dash more often, though.

As for "cannot" or "can not": "cannot" is more preferable, but you can use "can not" to be emphatic: You can [i]not[/i] leave, etc.