Is suicide really selfish?

[SunfallE]

Tell me what you think. If you think it is sefish, why? If you think it isn't, why? Here's my opinion on the matter:

In some situations I would defiantly have to say no. It?s to easy an answer to automatically say the person wanting to die is selfish. Here?s a situation and you can decide for yourself if you think this person?s desire to end it all is selfish or not.

Imagine that for twelve years you were sexually, verbally, and physically abused. This abuse started when you were only six and a half years old. Then when you were twelve years old your parents get divorced and the court grants your mother custody over you. Although the move away from home ends the physical and sexual abuse, as the abusers no longer live near you, it is replaced with abuse from your mother. For whatever reason she decides you are a demon child possessed by the devil. Your mother uses any form of religious teaching to prove your demonic state and that you are beyond redemption. As a child you don?t know if what she says is true or not, it?s hard to understand why on some level your own mother hates you so much. After nearly 12 years of being abused you find yourself constantly depressed and it seems that the pain only gets worse every day.

Now imagine you are lucky enough to have a friend who notices how you seem to keep getting more and more withdrawn. This friend cares enough that when she finds you about to overdose on medicine in an attempt to kill yourself, she takes you down to the hospital to be admitted. Imagine the relief of finding out that you aren?t possessed by the devil, and that you aren?t alone. Other?s who have suffered like you have welcomed you into their lives. You decide that although it hurts, you never wanted to die; you just didn?t know that other?s out there cared for you. After all for twelve years the people you thought loved you simply used you.

I?m sure by now that many of you have guessed that I am talking about myself. I want to know where does one draw the line? Sure there are people out there who use the threat of suicide to get their own way, but what about those of us who were simply needing help and didn?t realize it was there? It actually took my counselor informing my mother that if she talked to me again a restraining order would be used for her to finally quit yelling at me and chewing me out for everything, most the time the stuff she yelled at me over wasn?t even my fault.

Ironically my desire to die resulted in my getting the help I needed. It totally changed my life for the better. People will say that I was selfish, and I just can?t agree with them. What about the people who hurt me all those years? Are we saying that their actions are okay? Where do you draw the line? I am sure that there are others who attempt suicide who are just like I was, desperately needing help yet not knowing where to get it. So maybe in that respect I am a bit selfish, I wanted to live after all.

[Cap'n]

I agree with you to a point...I mean, a lot of other people attempt suicide just for attention. I'm sorry all that stuff happened to you and it seems like you were getting way too much negative attention but I know a kid who's attempted suicide at least 36 times now and he keeps getting attention and he loves it.

In no way is suicide the answer, but those who succeed in committing suicide, sometimes have an excuse. Though excuses are never as good as them not killing themselves at all.

[skedy]

[COLOR=Teal][SIZE=1][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode]Generally, and by no means am I specifying your prior situation, I believe suicide isn't selfish but rather egotistical. I think a large part of what people who have or wish to commit suicide is a loss of a larger picture or sense of beloning. Personally I have been through patches rough enough to contemplat suicide but know, and always have, that I never would or could. Coming to this point I lost a sense of who I really was and how I affected the people around me. I was surprised to hear someone had made a comment about me behind my back, that I influenced the world at all.

Personally I attribute this to an egotistical nature. My problems affected me so much I was unable to focus properly on anything other than myself or the issues I had to deal with. Now if that made sense, I believe that similarly to you I would have not known what to do and probably turned to suicide. However, I'm incredibly arrogant and equally proud as I am stubborn (in ground personality traits) and couldn't have let that sort of adversity take me to that point, I probably would have gone nuts and killed my mother.

Then again I can't really know what you have experienced. But I don't think it is selfish in the least to contemplate or attempt to carry out suicide.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Trying to compare all suicides on some level playing field is like pretending that women get a fair go in the workplace.

It just won't work.

A lot of the time, suicide is people being pushed to the edge of their limits, and they see no other way to overcome their woes. But sometimes people become so ego-centric that they focus too much on their own issues, and blow them out of proportion. When somebody has someone who cares about them, and they suicide, then yeah, it is selfish. But you cannot automatically assume that all those who suicide did it for the same reason.[/size]

[James]

[color=#B0251E]I think Baron is right; it's impossibly to apply a blanket standard to something like suicide.

I think that the vast majority of people who attempt suicide are seeking attention, though. This is not necessarily an intentionally selfish act (more on that in a bit); I think it is a way for certain people to gain attention when they may have difficulty getting it in other areas. This isn't to say that a suicide attempt isn't serious - obviously if someone is seeking attention that badly, there [i]must[/i] be something wrong. And that should be investigated, obviously.

But having said that, suicide is also the ultimate form of emotional blackmail. I know of two cases that happened recently (one was a family member of mine, one was a work colleague of my mother's), which basically involved committing suicide to make other people pay a price - in other words, a kind of "I'm going to commit suicide because of you and you'll have to live with that for the rest of your life". In an odd way, it's almost like...an act of mental/emotional rape on everyone who knows those people. It's almost a [i]violent[/i] and aggressive act, you know?

Obviously, if these people are willing to commit suicide, then something is wrong. Again, I don't want to suggest that these people are just doing it for fun. However, I do feel that in the majority of cases (suicide attempts), it's about seeking attention.

Of course, everyone has different reasons. Some people do simply feel that they can't function as a human being anymore and suicide is the only answer. I would be lying if I said that I'd never contemplated it in my life - but I am not one to talk about it every five seconds. Why? Well, for the most part, I actually felt angry with myself for having such thoughts. I mean, for being so willing to hurt everyone around me by doing something like that. It [i]felt[/i] selfish.

In a funny way, no matter how badly I'm doing...I don't think I'm one who could ever actually commit suicide. Committing suicide would kind of be the antithesis of everything I am as a person - I'm not one for revenge and I'm not one to deliberately make those around me pay.[/color]

[future girl]

[size=1]I always thought the idea of "I'm going to kill myself to make you pay," to be pretty odd. I figure there are better ways to make people suffer in real time. Anyway, like it's been said you can't really say every suicide is selfish, just like you can't say every suicide had a real cause. I don't think suicide is a justifiable act. To me there always seems to be a better option. I'd be a liar if I said it's never crossed my mind, I've hit what feels like rock bottom several times but when faced with the option to just give up or crawl my way out of there, I go for the latter. I suppose not everyone realizes there are options out there, though. I don't think anyone who really means to kill themself does it for attention or selfish reasons. I think once you've gotten to the point where your life seems expendable it's only because you don't see the second option.[/size]

[SunfallE]

[quote name='James][color=#B0251E']In a funny way, no matter how badly I'm doing...I don't think I'm one who could ever actually commit suicide. Committing suicide would kind of be the antithesis of everything I am as a person - I'm not one for revenge and I'm not one to deliberately make those around me pay.[/color][/quote]

Since my stay in the hospital *which by the way was many years ago* I now feel this way as well. For me suicide is no longer an option. I still get frustrated and depressed and have problems but unlike before I know that there are others who will help you and I've worked on learning to help myself. At the time it never occured to me that I would be hurting the ones around me, I just wanted it to end. Now I know better as I have friends who would be really sad if I were to do something like that. I believe that my first attempt *which will be my last* wasn't selfish, but if I were to do something like that now then I would absoutely say it would be selfish for me to commit suicide.

[QUOTE=skedy][COLOR=Teal][SIZE=1][FONT=Lucida Sans Unicode] However, I'm incredibly arrogant and equally proud as I am stubborn (in ground personality traits) and couldn't have let that sort of adversity take me to that point, I probably would have gone nuts and killed my mother.

Then again I can't really know what you have experienced. But I don't think it is selfish in the least to contemplate or attempt to carry out suicide.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

I actually wanted to kill my mother, but In spite of being so messed up I still firmly believed that I had no right to take someone else's life. Now I just stay away from her as I no longer even consider her my mother. Though why I thought killing myself was okay I'm no longer sure as I don't feel that way anymore. It's like looking back through a distorted mirror. It's hard to believe that at one time that person was actually me.

[Morpheus]

I actually nearly laugh at thinking that I would commit suicide. If I was so far into the dumps that I thought no one cared about me, I would probably steal some money and a car and get away. Far away. I'd probably drive the 25 miles to Fort Knox and hang out there for a while. They have a bowling alley that's great for relieving stress. I'm not the type to do that sort of thing(I haven't broken the law since I was 50, but it seems to be a much better outlet than suicide. By the time I think no one cares about me, I'd have given up on the world, so I wouldn't care about taking things to get by. The world would be the problem, not me.

[Semjaza]

I find that many suicides I hear about often involve someone who does have family that care about them or whatever else. I think a lot of the time the person who kills themselves likely hasn't thought about the consequences these things can have on the people in their life, whether they find themselves important or not. People just need to talk about feelings more, I think.

I've never seriously thought about killing myself. There have been times where I'd think "what would happen if I did?", but it's only morbid curiousity of the unknown, nothing more. I never could, regardless of how bad things may get, but I can also understand how someone would think it's the only way to go for them. I'm not these people, I can't know entirely what is in their minds.

I'd rather run away or reinvent myself or really try to fix my problems. There seems to be so many better things to do when I think about it. They all require more work, but I don't know that they'd be any more difficult.

In general, I don't think it makes anyone "pay". If someone makes your life miserable, they likely won't get overly worked up once you're gone. If anything, I'd think it would be letting them win. Giving another person that much power over myself is not something I let happen, personally... but I also haven't been in absolutely terrible family senarios either.

I think one of the biggest annoyances is the amount of people online who seem to embrace suicidal things as their "image". There's so many people who write or post all over the place that seem to use it as if it is fashionable... at the same time having no real problems of their own to speak of.

[Boo]

[color=gray][size=1]About suicide... You don't get a spot in my jolly flashy-colours-containing book of people I think are nice.

This could be because I mostly lay a connection between suicide and gothic people (which I don't like, mainly for fun) XD. But really, I haven't had any cases of suicide in my social circle. There were some that said they were going to, but never did it (although some gothics still cut open their wrists).

But when someone would commit suicide, I don't think they think about others immediatelly. It's not like they kill themselves because someone else has trouble (or so I hope)

"Omg, me byggest frined haz truobel wid h1s p4rnts, l3t's g0 ki77 mis3lf!!"
Eh yeah, actually only 2 lines were really answering the question o__O;[/color][/size]

[Missa]

Well, I think that we've all agreed that it depends upon the motives of the person and the situation that they are in. People who commit suicide, or threaten to commit suicide, merely for attention or to hurt other people are obviously being selfish in my own opinion. But a person who has suffered so much, and simply can't think of a better option...I don't think so. I think we can all imagine what that must be like and understand the motivation behind the act.

I am really sorry that you have suffered so much abuse from the people who were supposed to love you the most in this world. I am grateful that someone recognized your cry for help and provided you with the help and understanding that you needed. I do not think that your actions were selfish in the least, but I am glad that you did not go through with it. And I wish you the very best ;) Adieu.

[Panda]

I am in agreement that blanket statement of suicide being selfish is not appropriate.

I think there are many things to take into consideration. For instance I had a friend who commited suicide because his ex-girlfriend from high school got engaged to get married. I felt that what he did was selfish. He left a note telling his friends and family how much he loved them. Yet didn't think about what would happen when his mom walked into his room and found him dead from a self inflicted shotgun blast to the head. If he loved her so much, why would he leave her with that final memory of him?

On the other hand there are people who are slowly dying of painful disease and want to die and commit suicide. I don't feel this is selfish. I know I am biased since I can, first hand, relate to those suffering from a painful disease process.

Pain is pain, whether it is physical or mental. Regardless of what is causing the pain the thought that death will bring peace and take that pain away is very tempting for those hurting. I don't think saying all suicides are selfish is fair. Just my 2 cents.

[Chaos]

Hi, everyone, I'm here to make sure the other side of the fence is well-stocked with overzealous opinion.

--

Suicide in any manner, form, or way is not only selfish, but cowardly as well. It's the escape mechanism of either a weakling or someone who doesn't see other alternatives to the matter. I think that all suicide can be included in this because there is ALWAYS something you can do, be it morally acceptable or not.

Now, don't get me wrong, I feel for those that take their own lives. Don't doubt for a second I get a pang of sadness or guilt when I hear about someone killing themselves, especially if I knew the person. But that still does not change my opinion that it is a cowardly thing to do. So you've had trouble in your life. Okay. I'm sorry to hear it, but don't slit your wrists or blow your brains out over it. Take up something constructive. Take up something nonconstructive. Just don't stoop so low as to end life earlier than should be expected.

I would rather an abused person go off on a rampage and kill the sick bastard that beat/raped/whathaveyou the abusee than have someone just end their life. At least there you take a nonproductive member of society out of the picture, and you might be able to get help afterwards.

To SunfallE, I'm sorry to hear of your more-than-turbulant past. And I'm glad to hear you worked past it, at least to a point. But no, those that harmed you are not okay oe justified. But what would you ending your own life prove? That you gave up without trying to find help. I won't lecture you further, because you've probably gotten enough of that, but I just wanted to include this because I felt it was necessary.

[Doc]

[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray]I too agree with the impossibility to generalize suicide, yet... I don't know.[/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray]About a week after Christmas this year, an old friend attempted suicide. I only know this because he was my cousins best friend after I left. Well, his parents were getting divorced, and at such an emotional age, 15, he felt he needed his parents. So, he attached some of his rock climbing equipment to the tree outside his bedroom window and jumped.[/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray]_-_ His parent's were downstairs arguing when they saw him lurch outside the front window. They ran out, but, he nearly broke his neck. He had hung there for a while before they could get him down, and he had been in a coma until last week. He finally passed away... I believe last Friday.[/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray]This some could say, was an act of selfishness. He believed he couldn't live without both parents all the time, so he jumped. This could be called selfish, but I don't feel like judging someone I used to be close too.[/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray]Pretty much though, I agree with almost all of what Panda has stated.[/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray][/color][/size][/font]
[font=Century Gothic][size=1][color=darkslategray]Gah, typing this is like getting hit repeatedly with a cinder block. _-_ Just very depressing, and yet, so...[/color][/size][/font]

[SunfallE]

[QUOTE=Chaos]
I would rather an abused person go off on a rampage and kill the sick bastard that beat/raped/whathaveyou the abusee than have someone just end their life. At least there you take a nonproductive member of society out of the picture, and you might be able to get help afterwards.

To SunfallE, I'm sorry to hear of your more-than-turbulant past. And I'm glad to hear you worked past it, at least to a point. But no, those that harmed you are not okay oe justified. But what would you ending your own life prove? That you gave up without trying to find help. I won't lecture you further, because you've probably gotten enough of that, but I just wanted to include this because I felt it was necessary.[/QUOTE]

I would agree with that. If anyone did hurt me like before I would be more likely to attempt to punish them instead of hurting myself. Not that I think hurting others is a good idea. I just know that I no longer put up with being picked on like I did before.

As for being lectured, I wouldn't say that you have, in fact I think you presented your opinion quite well without actually lecturing. Very refreshing actually.

The main reason I started this thread is I wanted to get people's opinions, and I was certain that I was not the only one to feel that suicide wasn't necessarily selfish. This next comment will be bashing the LDS religion *Mormon* and if any of you are in that religion I apoligize for this statement. But since this happened the only people I know are LDS, since where I live over 90% of the people living here belong to this religion. Basically they have this view that suicide is selfish and I have dealt with alot of rude people lecturing me on how selfish I am, and how could I hurt my mother like I did. None of them are even willing to consider that anything my mother did or the others who hurt me is wrong.

I have been posting here for over a month now and based on what I have read all of you seemed pretty open minded about alot of subjects so I thought it would be nice to talk to people like that for a change. This is another bash on not only LDS religion, but Utah as well. They are very closed minded here. :animesigh So it's great to talk with others who aren't so narrow-minded. Now to be fair, there are a few people I know here who aren't like that, but to be truthful, they aren't originally from Utah either.

[Japan]

[COLOR=Navy]I definately think that suicide is selfish. I mean, if I went through with it, look at all of the people I would of hurt, and the friends that I have now, I couldn't be there for them like I am currently.

What stopped me then was thinking of those consequences and also my dog that I love very much.

From experience...just because you are having a bad day, week, month, year, or years, doesn't mean that it'll never it get better. You just have to remember to keep your chin up and tough it out. The waves will soon calm down.

I was in a very deep depression for four years, and during some of that time suicidal. Now I have plenty of friends, and things are going well for me. I am happy.

I used to get teased a lot for who I am. That still happens today. People can be so mean.[/COLOR]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Japan, remember that not everybody has someone who cares about them. There are truly some people out there who [b]nobody gives a **** about[/b]. It's sad, and it's horrible, but it's true. When these people look around, they see no reason to live. They don't feel like they can improve their lives, get away from their miserable existence. And nobody cares. You cannot help but feel for these kinds of people; and you cannot denounce them as being selfish. They truly feel that they have no other alternative. Rather, isn't it more selfish of you in this case to sweep aside their woes and proclaim that they just need to 'keep their chin up'? It's disregarding the situation that some people find themselves in.

I am no supporter of suicide, and I've always felt that it was selfish. But you do need to realise that you can't judge suicide as a whole. It has many sub-categories ~_^[/size]

[Pumpkin]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Japan, remember that not everybody has someone who cares about them. There are truly some people out there who [b]nobody gives a **** about[/b]. It's sad, and it's horrible, but it's true. When these people look around, they see no reason to live. They don't feel like they can improve their lives, get away from their miserable existence. And nobody cares. You cannot help but feel for these kinds of people; and you cannot denounce them as being selfish. They truly feel that they have no other alternative. Rather, isn't it more selfish of you in this case to sweep aside their woes and proclaim that they just need to 'keep their chin up'? It's disregarding the situation that some people find themselves in.

I am no supporter of suicide, and I've always felt that it was selfish. But you do need to realise that you can't judge suicide as a whole. It has many sub-categories ~_^[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1][FONT=Tahoma]Baron pretty much summed up what I was about to say. There are different reasons and not everyone has someone they care about. I do think there are horrible reasons to committing suicide (not like its a good thing to begin with) like taking revenge on people or killing yourself because you can't be with someone. If that person is happy, you should move on with your life. Most the time when your trying to commit suicide you don't think of the consequences and the impact of your loss will have on other's lives. My x-boyfriend's dad shot himself when he was only 14, a time when every guy needs a dad to talk to. The fact that he left at such an important time, its selfish. Yes, but can you hate someone for that? I think its wrong to just decide that that person must be selfish because they couldnt deal. Obviously that person needed help and it wasn't offered to them. Killing yourself for revenge though is the worst thing you can do, to purposely inflict pain. If that person isnt thinking about the consequences, its not being selfish its just pure ignorance. I hope that made some sense. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[Kamuro]

I agree to a certain agree with everyone in the post, its definitely hard to pick an "average" suicide and decide if its right or wrong, selfish or selfless, but in my opinion (and I'm 16, still young) life has been hard and trying moments highlighted by a few happy moments, rather then the other way around, sometimes it just seems like things won't get any better, when in reality, you havn't even come close to realizing your own potential, school sometimes makes people feel trapped, to stay in one place, with the same people, and dealing with the same things day after day after day, which can really drive a person crazy

and to support people that do think its selfish, well, to an extent it is, especially if you've known someone who has committed suicide, you wonder if they even thought of you, or how you would feel before they went and took their life, even when you do care, it just seems like caring wasn't enough, and as much as you second guess yourself, theres really nothing you can do but learn from the experience, and sometimes it actually helps a person, to not take things for granted, and really treat people well, because you don't know if they'll be there tomorrow, its not exactly comforting, but it does give us some hope, knowing that the person's sacrifice wasn't in vain

[mr.magoo1]

well it is in so may ways but in othere ways its not but even you really ask me its there life there takeing not your

[Kamuro]

agreed, but if that person came into your life, and made some sort of impact, changed you in some way, good or bad, it sort of feels like somethings missing without them, even if its their life and not your own

[Roxas]

Ok. Now before anyone reads this know that i didnt read all the preivous posts. I am just going to say what i think i be gone.

I say, and i can actually say something beacuse i was suicidal once before, that the people who think about, attempt it, or just plain carry it out do it becuase they think that no one cares or would prefer them dead. Now note that the only things that stoped me was the pain (never attempeted just thought about it and about how much it would hurt) and my new born neice. That showed me so much about life that I had never saw before. The fact that its so fragil. How much it deserves to stay here as long as possible. Really though i dont think im completly over it. I have thought about since then but caught myself. Then i think that there is just a part of me that wont forget whats happened to me and doesnt care what anyone will think and it wants to bring back down. Just know that it will eventually get to the point to where it is selfish. No matter how it starts. So it could be attention, but if it lasts long enough they will begin to think that know one cares and actually start to really think about it.

Theres my whole paragraph on the thing (wow) so read if u care.

[Doukeshi]

[COLOR=DimGray][SIZE=1]Okay then, how is killing someone else a better idea to killing yourself?

There is this whole idea in both society and religion that killing youself is an unforgivable sin and yet you can be let off killing someone else. How does that work?

Also, far from being selfish, some may find that dying would be the only way they can stop being a burden on whomever is close to them because of their problems...

Hell, I'm saying this and even I know that I think its the easy way out when I think about it. But then of course you have the sutainable argument that you shouldn't cover it all generically.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gelgoog Pilot]

I don't think this topic wanted to know if seflishness was a bad thing...or good thing. It wanted to know if suicide in your opinion is a selfish act. I think it is. You are only thinking of how miserable YOU are and how unhappy YOU make others feel and how worthless YOU must be. these thoughts are in nature selfishness...you're simply looking for a way out of a temporary problem. Yes life is absolute hell for some, that doesn't mean you should end your life.

Ahhh I'm going to stop before I start to get fired up...I'm big against the whole suicide stuff...probably since I know several people who have committed it and several others who even now are thinking of it.

I myself have I'll admit it. At times whent the stress is at it's worst I'll think of it as the easiest way out. Thankfully I have people who can pull me out of depressions in a heart beat. Besides that I also have an issue with the pain heh...I'll admit it I could stand having steel pins in my leg for six months but to cut myself...oh hell no...

I actually want to know something if anyone would be so kind...show me an example of a selfless act of suicide...I want to understand better where some of you are coming from. As of right now I can't imagine a selfless one...and I don't consider throwing yourself infront of a train or something to save a loved one and act of suicide...that's an act of love. Of transending the instinct of self-preservation.

[Kamuro]

any suicide could be considered selfish or selfless, it depends on the POV you take on the situation, most people do believe that suicide is for the persons benefit and no one elses, and it usually is, life gets to hard and they give up, but some people's suicides contribute to a greater cause without even knowing, now this isn't quite "selfless" since its not happening on purpose, but like I said before, suicide, or the death of someone close to you, often brings people together, it teaches them not to take things for granted, and to love the people in their lives, even if you see them everyday, I don't believe that someone would kill themselves for this sole purpose, but when options are limited, it just seems to be the way to go