Learning Japanese

[Xander Harris]

I recently started learning some Japanese from a Japanese girl who attends our college. She is graduating pretty soon here, though, and I would like to continue my studies (especially if I want to teach English in Japan after college, which I do). I've looked into a few books and tapes, but I was wondering what materials those of you who study Japanese like to use? Thanks!

To broaden the discussion possibilities, let's talk about language learning techniques. I know a few people here have studied such things at the college level (Lore and Siren are the ones that come to mind; am I right or do I have you mixed up with other people?) and anything else related to learning Japanese or another language.

James Bierly

[wrist cutter]

I've been studying Japanese for over five years and have been to Japan twice... so I have some room to give advice.

First of all, buy this: [url]http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/4770028555/qid=1113369175/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-6894262-8348630[/url]

I use it all the time... it has been immensely helpful.

I've tutored some people in Japanese, and it's hard to find the right learning technique. Once you get enough of the basics down, the best way to learn is just be the example of the Japanese... find Japanese websites, speak with Japanese people... etc.

[Bloodseeker]

The best way to learn anything is through necessity. See if you can move to Japan for a while. Maybe your company has some business partners over there that you can help communicate with. Or maybe you can be an exchange student, or something.

[Delta]

[COLOR=#FF5646][SIZE=1]I had a teacher who spoke only Japanese and whose English was still in its embryonic stage. She talked with us in rudimentary Japanese and pretty soon we were able to reply in the same language. It really helps if you have someone who knows Japanese and will talk to you only in Japanese.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Xander Harris]

well, bloodseeker, that will happen if and when I am teaching English over there... I doubt I will be in Japan before then (although I would like to go to China for a semester... maybe I would end up changing planes or something in Tokyo lol...)


good advice, Delta. I'll try to keep talking to the Japanese students as much as I can...

That book looks really well done, Wristcutter. What books do you recommend for hiragana and katakana?

Edit: *browsing Amazon* Could someone explain what the heck furigana precisely is? I'm confused...

[wrist cutter]

[quote name='Delta']I had a teacher who spoke only Japanese and whose English was still in its embryonic stage. She talked with us in rudimentary Japanese and pretty soon we were able to reply in the same language. It really helps if you have someone who knows Japanese and will talk to you only in Japanese.[/quote]


That's very true. While in Japan, I found when I was with someone who spoke English fairly well, I resorted to it too often. It really does help to be with someone who is only going to speak Japanese with you.

But before you go diving into that I really think you should know some basics... and by basics I mean a few years of study.

You don't really need books for hiragana and katakana. It's like buying a book to learn the ABCs or something. Here are the two charts:

[url=http://www.sweethypocrisies.com/lovestation/crap/hiragana.gif]Hiragana[/url]
[url=http://www.sweethypocrisies.com/lovestation/crap/katakana.gif]Katakana[/url]

First of all, flashcards will do amazing things for you. Don't buy pre-made ones because they're a waste of money (buy more kanji dictionaries or something instead, you can never have too many). Just make some cheap ones and you'll find you'll be able to read them in no time.

But you also need to be able to write them, so practice practice practice. If you need any help, feel free to PM me and I'll see what I can do. The two writing systems are fairly straightforward but there are a few tricks ("wo" actually being another "o" for example).

Furigana isn't a separate writing system. It refers to when hiragana are placed around a kanji (usually on top) to aid in reading the kanji, if it may present a problem. This is especially common in children's books and manga where kanji knowledge greatly varies among the readers, so furigana are placed next to kanji younger readers might not know yet.

Sometimes people get creative with furigana... they'll write one thing in kanji, and then put separate furigana above it. A lot of times I see "kisetsu" (season) written in kanji in lyrics, and then furigana "toki" (time) written over it. In this case, you read the kanji as the furigana instructs, but the kanji add sort of a twist to it.

[Godelsensei]

I'm nowhere near being able to hold anything resembling even the most basic conversation in Japanese, but I've been buying books on grammar and whatnot for a while now. I've read through them all many times, and tried copying things down, but you really do need some one to speak to and ask for help.

I speak passable French, since I've been studying it for so long (seven years), and have gotten to a point where I know enough grammar, vocabulary, and slang to make my way around Quebec/France without any one who speaks English. If I was stuck speaking French all the time, I'd be able to improve boundlessly.
However, I'm not, even within French classes.

Really, you have to be immersed in the language in at least a few ways to really learn it. It has to become natural and automatic.

My French knowledge that is [i]there[/i] is automatic, even though I have lots to learn. I can read a passage and understand it without having to translate in my head.
Once you get the basics down so far pat you don't have to think about them, the rest will come much more easily, as you have something to fall back to. If you can pull together a basic sentence without exerting too much effort, you're halfway there.

As a tip, I try and make a habit of watching the news in French every so often, to help my comprehension along. Anime works the same way, when it comes to Japanese.

[Kamuro]

I've read up on my Japanese a bit, but that doesn't make it any easier to learn the language. Its hard, just like learning any language, its not unique to Japanese. However, if you want to able to read and write it I suggest getting books on it. Theres several books you can get that teach you all the basics of actually understanding words, and how to write them. But its basically impossible to learn pronunciation from a book, so you can either find someone to teach you (like you did), or find another means of having it spoken to you. Some sites let you type in the phrase you need and it speaks it back to you. This helps if your actually trying to be fluent in a conversation rather then comprehend all of the words of the Japanese language.

[Iron_Inuyasha]

I have a friend also that tries to teach me japanese! ^__^ Though i tstill don't get it...i wanna learn this before i got to Tokyo! :animesmil

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Godelsensei]
As a tip, I try and make a habit of watching the news in French every so often, to help my comprehension along. Anime works the same way, when it comes to Japanese.[/QUOTE]

Word. I always watch my Anime in Japanese, and Ifind that even with just a few lessons, I am already understanding phrases the characters say. I wish we got, like, Japanese news or something over here in the States, but we don't :(

[AzureWolf]

[COLOR=blue]My friend has six years of Japanese under his belt. Every year, he has been #1 in his class, which is just freakin' awesome. He said that one of the biggest aids was reading untranslated manga. At first, he would read a manga in english, and then try reading the same manga in Japanese. Over time, you apparently will take a liking to the Japanese version because the meaning isn't skewed. In fact, since last year (or 2 years ago?), he's been only reading untranslated manga and says he understands almost everything.

Of course, I'm assuming that you have to have some basic Japanese learned before you can start doing this manga thing. Picture association probably has something to do with why it's more effective than just reading a book?

Hope that helps.[/COLOR]

[Xander Harris]

Yeah, that's a great idea. I know one of the main ways I learned to read English back in the day was by reading American comic books. Where can one get untranslated manga at in the states?

[QuincyArcher]

Well if you do want to teach in japan you'll have to be fluent in japanese and nothing less, i hope you know that especially if you wish to teach a language in a foreign country. So learning second-hand wont suffice, if you are in college than take classes thats the best way to learn. I am currently taking my second year of japanese in college and i find watching subtitled anime as well as reading non-translated mangas to be a great study aid, not to mention entertaining. I say subtitled anime because it is much easier learn the japanese spoken word with the english translation when you're hearing it and reading it at the same time, rather than watching the anime raw.

[AzureWolf]

[quote name='Xander Harris']Where can one get untranslated manga at in the states?[/quote][COLOR=blue] XD That's a good one. Yeah, he "bought" untranslated manga. ;)

Seriously, though, he just downloads it. He buys only translated manga, and sees no reason to buy the same thing twice. The only untranslated manga he buys is Chrono Crusade. He got the first one somehow (gift?) and realized that the language was "quick and simple," whatever that means. He uses Amazon international (or Japan - [url]www.amazon.co.jp[/url]), and for a high fee, they ship to the states. It's not hard to navigate through the site, and the important stuff can be made into english, but I don't remember how.

I don't like the idea of subtitled anime, though. People translate things differently, and no one has the 100% correct translation since it doesn't exist. So you [B]might[/B] start getting the wrong connotations for words. My friend does watch more subtitled anime than anyone (in the world), but didn't mention it when I asked what helped with learning Japanese. Also, he tried to watch untranslated anime and said it was too hard to follow.[/COLOR]

[Xander Harris]

[quote name='QuincyArcher']Well if you do want to teach in japan you'll have to be fluent in japanese and nothing less, i hope you know that especially if you wish to teach a language in a foreign country. So learning second-hand wont suffice, if you are in college than take classes thats the best way to learn. I am currently taking my second year of japanese in college and i find watching subtitled anime as well as reading non-translated mangas to be a great study aid, not to mention entertaining. I say subtitled anime because it is much easier learn the japanese spoken word with the english translation when you're hearing it and reading it at the same time, rather than watching the anime raw.[/quote]

Most of the people who go from the states don't speak Japanese to start with, but then they can only talk to English speaking people or not talk at all. I want to be fluent because I love to talk to people. I think I'd go nuts if I couldn't communicate in a meaningful way with people :animesmil

EDIT: I would love to take proper Japanese courses, but alas, our college does not offer them :(

As for subtitled anime and TV, I must disagree with you. As someone else pointed out, immersion is the key to learning a language. If I get really serious about Japanese, I should be watching things w/o subtitles. When you watch with subtitles, you are trying to read and listen at the same time. This is one of the reasons our Spanish teacher was so vehemently opposed to subtitles. When you don't have them, you have no choice but to listen and absorb if you want to have any hope of comprehension. Just my 2 cents on that topic....

[Dagger]

[quote name='Xander Harris']Yeah, that's a great idea. I know one of the main ways I learned to read English back in the day was by reading American comic books. Where can one get untranslated manga at in the states?[/quote]
If you live near a [url=http://www.kinokuniya.com/][u]Kinokuniya[/u][/url], that would definitely be the best place to go. If not, you'll probably have to order it online. Certain Borders stores also carry untranslated manga, but the selection is small and the prices are kind of ridiculous. Overall, though, untranslated manga is generally cheaper than translated manga (approximately $6 to $7 per tankoubon, rather than $9 to $12)--shipping costs and such are what even it out, so count yourself lucky if there's a Kino in your area.

~Dagger~

[Panda]

Manga in the raw can also be found at anime conventions. I was able to buy Excel Saga for $5 each at a con. There are also the online auction sites that I have seen them on.

As for learning Japanese using it everyday, hearing everyday is the very best way to learn in my opinion. That is how my husband is learning. I have basically been teaching him words that he now substitutes for the English words. For instance, calling steamed rice "gohan". I don't think we have said steamed rice in ages...it's always gohan. Now at family (mine obviously) get togethers when everyone is speaking only Japanese he doesn't need me to translate as much. He pretty much gets the conversation.

My mom, since day one, has spoken to him in Japanese. The only difference now is he actually understands her without me translating.

[Retribution]

[SIZE=1]I can only hope and pray that you're actually trying to seriously pick up the language and stick with it. Too many a time have I see someone say "I wanna learn Japanese!" because they like anime. They learn it from a friend, then quit once they see how hard it is, and how little they know. I don't know... but it just bugs me. Perhaps because they're posers? *shrug*

So yes, I know very little about Japanese, but I can only wish you the best of luck on your endeavors, and [B]stick with it.[/B] No matter how hard.[/SIZE]

[Kamuro]

Theres several ways to aquire untranslated manga. I actually like it untranslated, although I'm not all that good with Japanese, if you have a way to interpret it then you can easily learn a lot from them. My advice, if you do come across some, is not to get frustrated. It can be hard to not only translate, but actually comprehend what it is your reading, but it'll get better. But if your adamant about learning Japanese then it should be easier for you to be patient.

[roxybudgy]

Alot of people do want to learn Japanese because of anime (nothing wrong with that), but not me. I learnt Japanese in 1997 to 2003, not because of anime. In fact, I got into anime in 1999 (two years after beginning to learn Japanese).

I don't know if I can offer any tips on learning Japanese, it was pretty easy for me to lean kanji, being Chinese. I guess the best way to learn it is to be exposed to it.

[QuincyArcher]

[QUOTE=Xander Harris]
As for subtitled anime and TV, I must disagree with you. As someone else pointed out, immersion is the key to learning a language. If I get really serious about Japanese, I should be watching things w/o subtitles. When you watch with subtitles, you are trying to read and listen at the same time. This is one of the reasons our Spanish teacher was so vehemently opposed to subtitles. When you don't have them, you have no choice but to listen and absorb if you want to have any hope of comprehension. Just my 2 cents on that topic....[/QUOTE]

Well i was speaking from my own experience, it really all depends on what learning styles suit you best. From my experience watching anime with subtitles has helped my japanese comprehension immensley. (In fact, watching with subtitles helped me to learn a majority of the Hiragana before my classes even got into that subject.) I believe that if you're just listening to or "absorbing" foreign words but you having nothing within your own comprehension to ties those words back to, it makes the learning process much harder. It's just like when you were learning your first language. you hear a word that you don't understand, you wont know the meaning of it right away. There needs to be some foundation to tie the meaning down.

[Xander Harris]

[quote name='QuincyArcher']Well i was speaking from my own experience, it really all depends on what learning styles suit you best. From my experience watching anime with subtitles has helped my japanese comprehension immensley. (In fact, watching with subtitles helped me to learn a majority of the Hiragana before my classes even got into that subject.) I believe that if you're just listening to or "absorbing" foreign words but you having nothing within your own comprehension to ties those words back to, it makes the learning process much harder. It's just like when you were learning your first language. you hear a word that you don't understand, you wont know the meaning of it right away. There needs to be some foundation to tie the meaning down.[/quote]

That's probably a good point. I just wish the subtitles most of us have access to were better and less, well, messed up....

[Dagger]

[quote name='Xander Harris']That's probably a good point. I just wish the subtitles most of us have access to were better and less, well, messed up....[/quote]
*blinks* I'm not sure what "most of us" is referring to here, but I've rarely had complaints about subtitles. Obviously the subs on legitimate DVDs are pretty much always excellent (unless they come from Toei, haha), and a lot of fan groups hold themselves to ridiculously high levels of quality. Are you talking about bootlegs or something?

I do think watching anime subtitled can probably be somewhat helpful, at least in giving you a better feel for proper pronunciation & the way the language flows.

~Dagger~

[Xander Harris]

[QUOTE=Dagger]*blinks* I'm not sure what "most of us" is referring to here, but I've rarely had complaints about subtitles. Obviously the subs on legitimate DVDs are pretty much always excellent (unless they come from Toei, haha), and a lot of fan groups hold themselves to ridiculously high levels of quality. Are you talking about bootlegs or something?

I do think watching anime subtitled can probably be somewhat helpful, at least in giving you a better feel for proper pronunciation & the way the language flows.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

Most of us meant people I know irl... really, this is the first time I have seen someone speak so highly of subtitles... I always thought the general concensus was that subtitles tend to be more paraphrase than literal translation, and thus not a terribly effective learning tool... but you are somone whose opinion a certainly respect, so perhaps now is a good time to bow to your superior wisdom and stop feeling guilty about watching Anime with subtitles instead of w/o lol...

[Dagger]

[quote name='Xander Harris']Most of us meant people I know irl... really, this is the first time I have seen someone speak so highly of subtitles... I always thought the general concensus was that subtitles tend to be more paraphrase than literal translation, and thus not a terribly effective learning tool... but you are somone whose opinion a certainly respect, so perhaps now is a good time to bow to your superior wisdom and stop feeling guilty about watching Anime with subtitles instead of w/o lol...[/quote]
A truly literal translation wouldn't make any sense whatsoever, given that the grammatical structure of Japanese is often the complete reverse of what you'd see in English. What you've mentioned is an issue inherent to all forms of translation, not just Japanese --> English or vice versa. Based on that, I still don't get how you came to the conclusion that anime subs specifically are "messed up" or whatnot. :animeswea

No one's going to learn Japanese just by watching a lot of subtitled anime, but at the same time it certainly won't hurt your listening comprehension--especially if you can pick up enough to let the subs fill in the gaps. Basically, if you don't have the vocabulary/knowledge/whatever to watch stuff raw and understand the nuances of what's going on, you may as well start off with subs. I'm sure I'd be a little better at French if I sat down to watch some French movies every weekend.

~Dagger~