Gaming Guild Wars

October 11, 2005

Oh, it seems a lot of people here play Guild Wars. It's a pretty cool game, though there are lots of scammers and people who quit midway through missions. Overall though, it's well worth 30 quid. And not having to pay 8 per month is nice too.

I mostly use warriors, though elementalists, necros, and mesmers are fun as well. Nothing like snaring and throwing some degen on a poor hammer warrior and watch him limp his way to death.

October 18, 2005

Hey everyone, its me Scott. Long story on why I changed my account name and stuff but anyways I was wondering if anyone would like to help me with The Wilds mission in Maguuma. Me and Garret Just blew through like 7 missions and we're way ahead of ourselves, We're a dynamic team :)
But anyways, Im stuck on the wilds, even though i'm told it is easy, so if anyone would take the time to aid me i'd be very happy. Nowadays im usually on from about 4:00p.m to 6:00p.m and (sometimes) 8:00p.m-10:00p.m

Desbreko · October 18, 2005

[color=#4B0082]So I've been doing a good number of runs into Sorrow's Furnace lately, and I have some green items up for grabs:[/color]

[color=green][b]Malinon's Skull Crusher[/b][/color]
Blunt Dmg: 19-35 (req. 9 Hammer Mastery)
Damage +15% (while in health is above 50%)
Hammer Mastery +1 (20% Chance while using skills)
Lengthens Weakness duration on foe

[color=green][b]Morgriff's Staff[/b][/color]
Energy +10
Cold Dmg: 11-22 (req. 9 Death Magic)
Improves Casting speed (Chance 10%)
Improves skill recharge (Chance 10%)
Armor +5
Armor +5

[color=green][b]The Brimstone[/b][/color]
Energy +12 (req. 9 Air Magic)
Air Magic +1 (20% chance while using skills)
Improves skill recharge using Air Magic skills (Chance: 20%)

[color=#4B0082]It's also a good time to be a mesmer. I have a few good gold/purple mesmer wands/focus items/staves that are both DOMINATION and Illusion based. The best one is probably this:[/color]

[color=gold][b]Insightful Inscribed Staff of Warding[/b][/color]
Energy +10
Chaos Dmg: 11-22 (req. 10 Domination Magic)
Improves skill recharge (Chance: 9%)
Energy +4
Armor +6 (vs. Elemental)

Brasil · October 18, 2005

Malinon's Skull Crusher might be nice for Duncan.

Hmmm...yes, I think it will do nicely. He's collecting quite a few nice hammers. ^_^

Ellerby · October 18, 2005

[color=#333333]*Start Rant*

I hate this game with a firey passion that would melt hell. Actually it isn't [i]that[/i] bad. But I [i]do[/i] dislike it.

I have some good points too...

[list]
[*]I dislike the graphics. They are good but they don't suit [i]me[/i].
[*]The GMs are horrible. They just aren't helpful in any way.
[*]It's arena based. I hate arena based games. It just isn't much of an RPG.
[*]The community sucks. 8/10 players on GW are just all around jerks.
[*]I hate NCSoft. Just because of a little thing that happened between me and NCSoft, I hate them.
[*]Also, I forgot to mention that the Character is pretty bad. Everyone looks the same. o.o
[/list]

Anyways.. that's why I dislike Guild Wars. Other then that it's okay to play once in a while. But if you want a really good playing community then go get World of Warcraft and go on a Roleplaying server. You'll find that 9/10 people there are extremely kind.

*End Rant*[/color]

Brasil · October 18, 2005

[QUOTE=Lrb][color=#333333]*Start Rant*

I hate this game with a firey passion that would melt hell. Actually it isn't [i]that[/i] bad. But I [i]do[/i] dislike it.

I have some good points too...[/quote]
*chuckles* Just for fun, let's have a look-see.
[/color][color=#333333][quote]I dislike the graphics. They are good but they don't suit [i]me[/i].[/quote] [/color]

[color=#333333]What does suit you? I don't know if personal taste really holds credibility in a discussion about objective quality.
[/color]

[color=#333333][quote]The GMs are horrible. They just aren't helpful in any way.[/quote] [/color]

[color=#333333]GMs?
[/color]

[color=#333333][quote]It's arena based. I hate arena based games. It just isn't much of an RPG.[/quote] [/color]

[color=#333333]Arena-based? You're going to have to be more specific here, lol. Are you referring to the actual PvP arenas? Or "sectioned" or "instanced" PvE?
[/color]

[color=#333333][quote]The community sucks. 8/10 players on GW are just all around jerks.[/quote] [/color]

[color=#333333]Yes, because you never, ever see "WTB/WTS" spam in Local chat in WoW or SWG, haha. Or "OMG why u bring taht skill?!?1"
[/color]

[color=#333333][quote]I hate NCSoft. Just because of a little thing that happened between me and NCSoft, I hate them.[/quote] [/color]

[color=#333333]I don't see why the company who publishes the game has any bearing on how you react to the game. People don't dislike SWG because of SOE. They dislike SWG because it's become substandard in many respects. SOE has something to do with that...but there's more on the dev side, rather than publication side, and I don't know anyone who says ArenaNet is a substandard dev team.
[/color]

[color=#333333][quote]Also, I forgot to mention that the Character is pretty bad. Everyone looks the same. o.o[/quote] [/color]

[color=#333333]Then you haven't seen QKT.

[quote]Anyways.. that's why I dislike Guild Wars. Other then that it's okay to play once in a while. But if you want a really good playing community then go get World of Warcraft and go on a Roleplaying server. You'll find that 9/10 people there are extremely kind.[/quote][/color]
[color=#333333]
World of Warcraft has the same type of prepubescent, hyperactive, hormone-driven, angsty little boys as GW does. Or any other MMORPG for that matter. If you're going to characterize the entire GW community like that...you need to play GW more, man.
[/color]
[color=#333333]
[quote]*End Rant*[/color][/QUOTE]

lol, sorry, but I don't really see that as a rant.

October 18, 2005

Well, actually he does have a point about nearly all those things. There is little character customization visually, and if he doesn't like PVP arenas then he won't like about half of what GW has to offer. A lof of GW players really are jerks (but a lot of *every game ever* players are jerks; we just don't have to deal with them on a daily basis). Anyway, most everything the "ranter" mentioned is rather subjective, and not really worth trying to refute. If he dislikes the game for those reasons, it can't be helped. They're as valid as anyone else's. Some people dislike games for far more trivial or strange reasons, so why get on this guy's case ^^

WoW is much more developed of an *RPG* (GW is more about PVP), but I can't say its community is better. In general they're both about 80% 14-year-olds who are complete idiots.

Oh, and that green hammer that you guys were discussing earlier is not so good...weakness is useless for hammer wars. I'd suggest a 10% furious hammer with either 5 armor or 30hp (for degen). Hammers are cheap nowadays, so just get a 15>50 one rather than the green garbage hammers.

Ellerby · October 18, 2005

[quote name='Brasil']*chuckles* Just for fun, let's have a look-see.[/quote]
[color=#333333]And I shall do the same.[/color]

[quote]What does suit you? I don't know if personal taste really holds credibility in a discussion about objective quality.
[/quote]
[color=#222222]I'm not sure what suits me. All I am saying is that I dislike the graphics. It was more of a statement then a reason why people shouldn't play this game. I'm using it as a point as to why [i]I[/i] dislike the game. Do you catch my drift?[/color]

[quote]GMs?[/quote]
[color=#222222]Game-masters. I'm not sure if that's what they're called in Guild Wars, (it's been a while) but they are basically customer service.[/color]

[quote]Arena-based? You're going to have to be more specific here, lol. Are you referring to the actual PvP arenas? Or "sectioned" or "instanced" PvE?
[/quote]
[color=#222222]By Arena-Based I mean that the game is mostly for going out and fighting. I just don't like that sort of thing.[/color]

[quote]Yes, because you never, ever see "WTB/WTS" spam in Local chat in WoW or SWG, haha. Or "OMG why u bring taht skill?!?1"
[/quote]
[color=#222222]If you paid more attention to my post you would see that I said Role-Playing servers on WoW. I can honestly say that on any RP server on WoW, I have never seen any WTB/WTS spam. I've never played SWG so I wouldn't know.[/color]

[quote]I don't see why the company who publishes the game has any bearing on how you react to the game. People don't dislike SWG because of SOE. They dislike SWG because it's become substandard in many respects. SOE has something to do with that...but there's more on the dev side, rather than publication side, and I don't know anyone who says ArenaNet is a substandard dev team.
[/quote]
[color=#222222]Actually this [i]is[/i] a reason to judge the game. It means that the customer service will be the same as all their other games. And the customer service is what I had a problem with.[/color]

[quote]Then you haven't seen QKT.[/quote]
[color=#222222]What's that? ^-^;[/color]

[quote]
World of Warcraft has the same type of prepubescent, hyperactive, hormone-driven, angsty little boys as GW does. Or any other MMORPG for that matter. If you're going to characterize the entire GW community like that...you need to play GW more, man.
[/quote]
[color=#222222]First of all I was talking about WoW's RP servers only. like I said before. Second of all, I'm not judging the whole GW community. I'm speaking generally here.[/color]

[color=#222222]And to end it. I thought it was rant worthy. Q_Q[/color]

Brasil · October 19, 2005

[quote name='Lrb']I'm not sure what suits me. All I am saying is that I dislike the graphics. It was more of a statement then a reason why people shouldn't play this game. I'm using it as a point as to why I dislike the game. Do you catch my drift?[/quote]
I just think that vague, meandering "I don't like it but I don't know why" types of answers suck in any context, for any context. When someone says "the graphics are good, but they're not me," then can't even explain what is them...I tend to laugh, because I'd hope most people would at least know why they dislike exceptional graphics. The style in GW is some of the best I've ever seen, and their concept artwork is absolutely breathtaking.

[quote]Game-masters. I'm not sure if that's what they're called in Guild Wars, (it's been a while) but they are basically customer service.[/quote]
You need to start reading GW forums, dude. The GW equivalent of "game-masters" are the devs themselves who can appear in any instance they want, whenever they want. If there's a particular bug or graphical glitch they're particularly interested in observing while it's happening, they can pinpoint [i]your own[/i] location within [i]your own[/i] instance of the explorable area and "beam" themselves in. If you read up on the game before criticizing it, you'd find that your original criticism of the "GMs" was absolutely absurd.

[quote]By Arena-Based I mean that the game is mostly for going out and fighting. I just don't like that sort of thing.[/quote]
This still sounds very vague. What MMOs aren't for mostly going out and fighting? WoW? SWG? CoH? Are you telling me you still have level 1 characters in WoW because you hang out in the tavern all the time? lol

[quote]If you paid more attention to my post you would see that I said Role-Playing servers on WoW. I can honestly say that on any RP server on WoW, I have never seen any WTB/WTS spam. I've never played SWG so I wouldn't know.[/quote]
I did pay attention to your post, and I still stand by my original response. You're basing a broad generalization about two MMOs on one smaller aspect of one of those games.

You hang out in Role-Playing servers in WoW, and because you don't see the "WTB/WTS" spam chat in there, the entire WoW community is automatically better than GW's? That's like saying Goose #1 is Blue, Goose #2 is Blue, Goose #3 is Blue, therefore, all Geese are Blue.

I guarantee you that the only reason you don't see the "WTB/WTS" spam chat is because you hang in the RP servers. Get into the full game servers and you'll see something horrible.

And you never even touched upon my other point there, too, the one about skill discussions. How does that work in a RP server, exactly, anyway? Is it all Middle English "Bringe farth theat skilre soe wer maye dfete owr fooes"? Or...gasp! Is it "OMFG don bring dat skill! it suxs!" What's the Metagame like? Is there a Metagame?

[quote]Actually this is a reason to judge the game. It means that the customer service will be the same as all their other games. And the customer service is what I had a problem with.[/quote]
Okay...and how did you have a problem with the customer service of GW? I'd like to point out that the developers themselves (ArenaNet) are the ones monitoring the game, not NCSoft, and I'd also like to point out that the developers themselves (ArenaNet) are the ones who can do just about anything they want, including popping in an instanced zone to check something out with players. That customer service?

Or was it something to do with actual billing? I'd then point out that GW has no monthly fees, so you can stop playing any time without having to cancel your account.

Was it something to do with GW at all? If it wasn't, how does a negative experience with a different game altogether affect how you view GW? I could see disliking City of Heroes because it's utter crap and the combat sucks, but hating GW because it's published by the same publisher?

Come on. lol

[quote]What's that? ^-^;[/quote]
You need to read this thread right here, dude.

[quote]First of all I was talking about WoW's RP servers only. like I said before. Second of all, I'm not judging the whole GW community. I'm speaking generally here.[/quote]
You need to learn what the word "generally" means, then apply it back to your original criticisms and previous posts. It's pretty clear to me you're making broad generalizations here...and how are you not judging the whole GW community? You just got done talking about how "8/10" of it sucks. How much have you actually played? "Once in a while"?

Come on. lol

[quote]And to end it. I thought it was rant worthy. Q_Q[/QUOTE]
It was more a short snippet of a haphazard, inaccurate ramble.

Warmaster, GW isn't more about PvP. Given that the end-game currently after Ascension still has a few hundred hours of gameplay easily, while the end-game PvP is mainly just GvG and Tombs/HoH, I don't think it's quite accurate to say GW is more PvP-oriented.

With regard to your hammer discourse, I'll say a few things real fast:

One, what if I already have a Furious Hammer?

Two, what are the two conditions most important to Warriors (and Rangers)? There are only two.

Three, given what some particular Hammer skills do, and what status effects they inflict on Knocked down foes, what Hammer mods would make the most sense for a KD Hammer War who's looking to inflict a few conditions?

Four, you can augment a Hammer War's damage in a variety of ways; you can augment their defense in a variety of ways; you can augment their health in a variety of ways. More damage, more defense, and more health should not pre-empt other mods, especially status effect mods. Think of it like this:

Inflicting those two most important conditions on a physical damage-based enemy will allow you to both out-damage and out-health that enemy.

A few extra points of armor penetration will give you a damage boost, but if there's nothing to mitigate the incoming damage, you're still taking heavy injury. In that scenario, it's going to become nothing more than a race against the clock.

Similarly, an extra 30 health or an extra 7 armor isn't going to matter when the enemy's damage output is still roaring at full strength.

Get what I'm saying here? You know the two golden conditions I'm talking about if you've played Warrior or Ranger at all.

October 19, 2005

[QUOTE=Brasil] Warmaster, GW isn't more about PvP. Given that the end-game currently after Ascension still has a few hundred hours of gameplay easily, while the end-game PvP is mainly just GvG and Tombs/HoH, I don't think it's quite accurate to say GW is more PvP-oriented.

With regard to your hammer discourse, I'll say a few things real fast:

One, what if I already have a Furious Hammer?

Two, what are the two conditions most important to Warriors (and Rangers)? There are only two.

Three, given what some particular Hammer skills do, and what status effects they inflict on Knocked down foes, what Hammer mods would make the most sense for a KD Hammer War who's looking to inflict a few conditions?

Four, you can augment a Hammer War's damage in a variety of ways; you can augment their defense in a variety of ways; you can augment their health in a variety of ways. More damage, more defense, and more health should not pre-empt other mods, especially status effect mods. Think of it like this:

Inflicting those two most important conditions on a physical damage-based enemy will allow you to both out-damage and out-health that enemy.

A few extra points of armor penetration will give you a damage boost, but if there's nothing to mitigate the incoming damage, you're still taking heavy injury. In that scenario, it's going to become nothing more than a race against the clock.

Similarly, an extra 30 health or an extra 7 armor isn't going to matter when the enemy's damage output is still roaring at full strength.

Get what I'm saying here? You know the two golden conditions I'm talking about if you've played Warrior or Ranger at all.[/QUOTE]
Well, I'm definitely going to stand firm on the side of GW being more about PVP than PVE. Considering how much more enthusiasm and effort ANet has been putting into keeping the PVP scene "balanced," and considering that they have always referredt to GW as a "competitive RPG" as opposed to an "MMO," and considering my personal discussions with the developers (which I won't really go into, just explaining what has formed MY opinion), I'd definitely say that they have put more love into PVP than PVE. WoW, on the other hand, is what you get when a developer puts some serious effort into the PVE aspect. But, no point in really arguing this; there's enough PVE AND PVP to go around for everyone, and you can really treat the two as huge, separate games. I play PVE more, but enjoy both.

On to the fun part of the reply, the hammer discussion ^_^ You are challenging my GW expertise! ^_^

1) If you already have a 10% Furious Hammer, then get an Elemental damage hammer for PVE (against Titans and Dwarves and such), and sell the rest. That's my suggestion.

2) Conditions important to Warriors are not the same ones important to Rangers, especially considering different builds. But, one condition that is important to both warriors and rangers is, in my opinion, Crippled. For a warrior, it means your target can't run away, and for a Ranger, it means your target can't close in on you for melee damage. Hammers don't cripple ^_^. The second most important condition for a warrior is, I believe, Deep Wound. Not only does it take away a sizeable chunk of HP, but it also reduces the benefit of healing that the target receives, which essentialy is a boost to your DPS for all intents and purposes. Other conditions that warriors can inflict are weakness and bleed, and neither are all that critical really. As a warrior, you usually attack soft targets, and they don't use melee attacks, so why care about weakness?

Weakness is a condition that necromancers inflict on other warriors to protect their own and their teammates' arses. Leave it to them; they have Enfeeble and such, which is way more efficient than something a hammer war can muster.

You gave me a loaded question there, when you asked what hammer mods does a KD hammer war who's *LOOKING TO INFLICT A FEW CONDITIONS* need? Well, if you're a KD hammer war and you are looking to "inflict a few conditions," then you're really looking for trouble. Leave condition stacking to the builds that are meant for it. Hammer wars are for knockdown disruption and high melee damage. Let them do what they're best at.

You discuss how Weakness reduces the damage output of a melee character. However, what you do not consider is that hammer warriors should NOT be going against other warriors. And if they are, they're supposed to rely on the *anti-warrior* aspects that their teammates bring along, such as Necro curses or Mesmer DoT hexes. Hammer warriors are not good anti-warriors unless they are W/N themselves, and W/N hammer builds... well I've never seen a single one worth my attention.

Really, I'm curious as to what Hammer builds you and your buddies use and what format you play, since you really seem to have thought out your 1v1 Warrior duels ~_^

But, hey, if you seriously think that weakness-lengthening hammers are so awesome, then please tell me your IGN and I'll sell you a whole ton ^_^

PS: Do you even know why I consider 10% Furious to be the best for a Hammer warrior? And what +30 health is for (hint: not for taking on other warriors)?

Also, I wanted to add that Devastating Hammer is frequently used as the hammer war elite not because it iflicts weakness, but because compared to the other KD skills in a hammer war's arsenal, it's just about the cheapest (unless you want to lose all adrenaline with Hammer Bash ^^).

Oh, and if you *truly* want to put a melee fighter out of commission, there's a condition that puts weakness to shame: Blind.

Brasil · October 19, 2005

[quote name='Warmaster']Well, I'm definitely going to stand firm on the side of GW being more about PVP than PVE. Considering how much more enthusiasm and effort ANet has been putting into keeping the PVP scene "balanced," and considering that they have always referredt to GW as a "competitive RPG" as opposed to an "MMO," and considering my personal discussions with the developers (which I won't really go into, just explaining what has formed MY opinion), I'd definitely say that they have put more love into PVP than PVE. WoW, on the other hand, is what you get when a developer puts some serious effort into the PVE aspect. But, no point in really arguing this; there's enough PVE AND PVP to go around for everyone, and you can really treat the two as huge, separate games. I play PVE more, but enjoy both.[/quote] They're churning out more and more PvE content. There's talk of adding in PvE Guild features. There's a push from the community for more PvE character customization, and from what we've seen in interviews, that's very likely.

I look at the content balance right now and I see much more variety in PvE. You have various types of battles in PvP, but that's about it. PvE, on the other hand, there's much more to do. Time-wise and content-wise, PvE is not getting left by the wayside, nor is there a focus more on PvP content.

I agree that there's more than enough on both sides, but content-wise, and what's on the horizon in terms of updates and expansions, neither gameplay type will be getting more attention than the other. Ultimately, things will be pretty balanced, and I think the only reason we see a PvP inclination right now is the majority of the whiners are "hardcore" PvPers--and Elitist ones, at that. They're unhappy regardless of what's done, lol.

[quote]1) If you already have a 10% Furious Hammer, then get an Elemental damage hammer for PVE (against Titans and Dwarves and such), and sell the rest. That's my suggestion.[/quote] Already have two Ele damage Hammers. One Fiery, the other, Ebon. Both max damage.

[quote]2) Conditions important to Warriors are not the same ones important to Rangers, especially considering different builds. But, one condition that is important to both warriors and rangers is, in my opinion, Crippled. For a warrior, it means your target can't run away, and for a Ranger, it means your target can't close in on you for melee damage. Hammers don't cripple ^_^.

The second most important condition for a warrior is, I believe, Deep Wound. Not only does it take away a sizeable chunk of HP, but it also reduces the benefit of healing that the target receives, which essentialy is a boost to your DPS for all intents and purposes. Other conditions that warriors can inflict are weakness and bleed, and neither are all that critical really. As a warrior, you usually attack soft targets, and they don't use melee attacks, so why care about weakness?

Weakness is a condition that necromancers inflict on other warriors to protect their own and their teammates' arses. Leave it to them; they have Enfeeble and such, which is way more efficient than something a hammer war can muster.

You gave me a loaded question there, when you asked what hammer mods does a KD hammer war who's *LOOKING TO INFLICT A FEW CONDITIONS* need? Well, if you're a KD hammer war and you are looking to "inflict a few conditions," then you're really looking for trouble. Leave condition stacking to the builds that are meant for it. Hammer wars are for knockdown disruption and high melee damage. Let them do what they're best at.

You discuss how Weakness reduces the damage output of a melee character. However, what you do not consider is that hammer warriors should NOT be going against other warriors. And if they are, they're supposed to rely on the *anti-warrior* aspects that their teammates bring along, such as Necro curses or Mesmer DoT hexes. Hammer warriors are not good anti-warriors unless they are W/N themselves, and W/N hammer builds... well I've never seen a single one worth my attention.

Really, I'm curious as to what Hammer builds you and your buddies use and what format you play, since you really seem to have thought out your 1v1 Warrior duels ~_^

But, hey, if you seriously think that weakness-lengthening hammers are so awesome, then please tell me your IGN and I'll sell you a whole ton ^_^

PS: Do you even know why I consider 10% Furious to be the best for a Hammer warrior?

Also, I wanted to add that Devastating Hammer is frequently used as the hammer war elite not because it iflicts weakness, but because compared to the other KD skills in a hammer war's arsenal, it's just about the cheapest (unless you want to lose all adrenaline with Hammer Bash ^^).

Oh, and if you *truly* want to put a melee fighter out of commission, there's a condition that puts weakness to shame: Blind.[/QUOTE] All of that is well and good, but regardless of the weapon type, what is a Warrior's role?

The Warrior is designed to get in the thick of things. As a War, you're not going to be targeting squishy targets, except the errant Monk.

No intelligent War is going to go up against a Necro or Mes, no matter what the rest of the team is doing. It's veritable suicide if the Nec or Mes knows what they're doing. Let's face it. The only threat to Nec and Mes is other Nec and Mes.

No War going up against an Ele is going to have the same kind of success as a Nec or Mes will, or even a Ranger. All a Ranger needs is a short bow and one good Concussion Shot, for example. (Incidentally, I don't know why people dislike C.Shot so much. It's absurdly useful, especially with a higher Expertise. 25-->12? Yes please.)

Wars are designed for one thing and one thing only: getting in-between the squishy targets and those other Wars trying to kill them. Basically, they're Intercepts. I think that's why so many Wars just suck at what they do, because they think they can carry the team. But they merely augment the team.

To that end, a Warrior that can also inflict particular status conditions that inhibit (or damn near negate) the damage output of an incoming aggressor is a tremendous benefit to the team.

You can Deep Wound and Cripple all you want, but if that attacker is already swinging away, Deep Wounding him won't help mitigate the damage being inflicted. Plus, an Axe War has 3x the number of Deep Wound skills.

Cripple will be useless (unless you intercept beforehand, but that's best left to a Ranger or Sword War anyway).

A Hammer War specializes in KDs and disruption, yes. But the KDs and disruptive skills of a Hammer War are completely overshadowed by a good Necromesmer (either combination) or Ranger...Interrupts, anyone? ~_^

Devastating Hammer is the best choice for KD with a 7 Adre cost, but why use D.Hammer when you're going after the squishies? After all, we are both agreed that Weakness doesn't matter for casters. If you're going Anti-Squishy (now that's a fun term!), Backbreaker or Earth Shaker is going to be a better option, even if it costs 3 more Adre.

With B.B. or E.S., you've still got the KD (B.B...4 seconds, which is not bad for caster-hate, and E.S. is AoE KD, which is nice for grouped caster-hate) and you're not inflicting a condition that ultimately doesn't matter to your target. D.Hammer vs Squishies is a waste of a skill slot, I think.

But if you're acting as a Hammer Intercept? D.Hammer is fantastic, because not only are you going to disrupt the attack speed, you're also mitigating that damage output for when that foe gets back up. It's a two birds with one stone situation, basically.

That's not to say Hammer Wars can't do KD/disruption, but in the thick of things? I'd say let the Mes, Nec, or Ranger handle disrupting those casters. They're designed to do that. Hammer Wars can, but by the time they're swinging at those casters, a Mes or Nec could have already shutdown that Ele or Monk. Three, maybe four Hexes and they're not going to be doing anything. Let's not forget the Rangers doing interrupts and Ranger/Mes or Mes/Ranger is a frightening thought for casters.

And then it keeps coming back to the question of if other classes are tailored for disruption and interrupts, why have a Hammer War do it? Why not focus on Intercepts, or behaving like the Meatshields Wars are designed to be? Hammer Wars are a really neat idea because on top of having the KDs, they have the important anti-physical condition inflictions, including Blind, which, interestingly enough, is a side effect from Belly Smash (though the recharge on Belly Smash is a bit long), which is best utilized against a knocked-down foe, which is exactly what happens with D.Hammer, which is a skill that causes Weakness, which is a physical damage mitigator, which is best used against characters who depend on physical damage in order to be useful on the battlefield.

So when all is said and done, Hammer Wars don't get the short end of the stick when it comes to condition infliction. Necs overshadow them, of course, but Necs (and Mes) overshadow most professions in the game when it comes to shutdown.

But a Hammer Wars role isn't to inflict continuous conditions, right? Their condition infliction is only temporary. But Wars are designed to act as the buffer, to provide a moment for the squishy targets to get out of the way. They provide a temporary reprieve (at least, designed to) for their squishy allies, and inflicting temp Blind and Weakness is certainly one of those temporary reprieves.

Regarding your question about why you like the 10% Furious mod...Hammers have the slowest swing time. Adre is gained through either taking damage or giving damage. Furious mods double Adre gain occasionally. Hmmm...I wonder why you prefer Furious Hammer Mods. Berserker's Stance may prove useful for building Adre. Ends if you use a skill, but if you're just using it to charge, the increased attack speed plus boosted Adre gain for 10 seconds isn't bad. Recharge is 30, but for building Adre...I can't see that being an issue.

To answer your question about the build, currently I'm fooling around with a Counter Blow/Mighty Blow/Disrupting Blow/ViM/Belly Smash build. Level 16 W/R in Sanctum Cay, and yes, I did go for a run. ~_^

Pumpkin · October 19, 2005

[SIZE=1]I just have to tell my story on the comparisons between World of Warcraft and Guild Wars. Both sides make valuable points, and both games are great in their own ways. Just to state I'm no newbie to MMO's I've played [COLOR=#336699][b]The Sims Online, Star Wars Galaxies, Diablo 1&2, Final Fantasy 11 and many others [/COLOR][/b] most of them large ones with different servers.

Guild Wars is the most unique and different one I've ever experienced before. I wasn't use to the thought that this would cost no monthly fee, for surely it couldn't be entertaining if it was free right? Wrong. I actually found I liked it. And keep in mind I'm not the type like you Lrb, I love hanging in taverns and conversing with others. World of Warcraft provides plenty of the social aspects and yes I did play on a [COLOR=#336699][b]roleplaying server called SilverHand [/b][/COLOR] as a druid night elf named Yavela Dubrin and was just to reach level 30 when I suddenly became to busy to play and grew bored of it.

I was head druid of a guild and active in WOW but I was left unsatisfied. My server must have been too overpopulated, because everytime I went to hunt there would be lines after fiends and someone would kill my prey. Usually I'd find some nice person to help me but over time that grew less and less. I miss roleplaying and for that WOW provides a lot of substance, but the fact of the matter was the lagg and the constant swarm of people stealing you XP got really irritating. As you can tell I'm not the best at PVP or even gaining xp can be tough for me. So when going out in your own group alone can be quite pleasing sometimes, especially if you just want to solo and not be bothered.

I miss the socializing and traveling the world in WOW but I have to admit there is some hierarchy going on in the servers. Players who think they are better because they have done so and so raids (which I have been in the head of a raid as well, I admit those are fun) and are level 65. You are always based on level. Guild Wars not so much because there is a cap at a certain level and your more based on your knowledge of your skills. I actually stand a chance.

I choose Guild Wars because I could play with people from OB here and still socialize, but also be as good as everyone else on the battlefield. I also didn't have to put up with crappy customer service (which by the way, blizzard sent me an email about my account when I cancelled about half a year ago..wth? it's strange.) as I ALWAYS have had trouble when cancelling my accounts with them. I might try Everquest 2 one of these days but until then, this is the option that is layed out for me. And I love the graphics of Guild Wars, I have to admit Star Wars Galaxies remains one of my favorite games that I've played. I don't know why, but I liked the PVP and PVE of that game until it went "Bad". It really wasn't so bad after all. I loved being imperial. But anyways back to topic...

It's just your opinion and really you were just stated what you thought. I just hope you played it for awhile to really decide on your decision. GW takes up less time then WOW which can become pretty addicting, believe me I know. But also wanted to know what roleplaying server do you play on? If you were on Silvermoon, Silverhand, Cenarion Circle or Earthen Ring I might have met you along the way ^^ I went between most of them lol. [/SIZE]

October 19, 2005

[quote name='Brasil'] Already have two Ele damage Hammers. One Fiery, the other, Ebon. Both max damage.[/quote]
Just keep one and use a Ranger's Winter or Greater Conflagration to add the versatility you need. If elemental damage is important at the time, then you're probably going to take such a ranger with you anyway.

[quote] All of that is well and good, but regardless of the weapon type, what is a Warrior's role?[/quote]
Well, many people will tell you many different things, because it's all about what you play. In PVE, they're tanks, but in PVP, I'd say they're the main damage output. Warriors are capable of far more consistent DPS than any other class, and by quite a margin. As long as they don't go defensive, that is.

[quote]The Warrior is designed to get in the thick of things. As a War, you're not going to be targeting squishy targets, except the errant Monk.[/quote]
If I may humbly disagree, I find myself targeting the Monk, followed by the Mesmer, then Necro, then Elem, then Ranger, and finally Warrior. Warriors have armor that's basically built to withstannd melee attacks, and the armor penetration of Elems as well as the DoT hexes of Mesmers and Necros are what is best suited for taking them out. As a Warrior, I target everyone but other warrirors ^_^ (until they're the only ones left standing). I find the same is true with teams that go against us; I'm always the last to really be taken down.

[quote] No intelligent War is going to go up against a Necro or Mes, no matter what the rest of the team is doing. It's veritable suicide if the Nec or Mes knows what they're doing. Let's face it. The only threat to Nec and Mes is other Nec and Mes.[/quote]
I agree that a really good Mesmer and a really good Necro can make your job as a War downright miserable, but if you have a condition/hex removal Monk on your team, just call out your conditions/hexes with ctrl+click and keep swinging away. That's why many good 8v8 teams have 3 monks. One for healing, one for protection, one for condition/hex removal.

[quote] No War going up against an Ele is going to have the same kind of success as a Nec or Mes will, or even a Ranger. All a Ranger needs is a short bow and one good Concussion Shot, for example. (Incidentally, I don't know why people dislike C.Shot so much. It's absurdly useful, especially with a higher Expertise. 25-->12? Yes please.)[/quote]
But, we're not talking about the warrior "shutting someone down" (although a good War/Mes *can* ^^), or at least I wasn't. I am talking about warrior damage output, and no matter how you slice it, no other profession can match it. Warrirors are victim to damage reducing hexes and snares and such, but as I said above, an attentive Monk will keep those things off the War and let him do his job ^_^

[quote] Wars are designed for one thing and one thing only: getting in-between the squishy targets and those other Wars trying to kill them. Basically, they're Intercepts. I think that's why so many Wars just suck at what they do, because they think they can carry the team. But they merely augment the team.[/quote]
In PVE, I'd have to definitely agree that most warriors are best at just being "tanks," essentially getting in the way of the monsters attacking the healers. In PVP, however, there are better ways of stopping the warriors who are after your own monks and mesmers. A simple "cripple and move on" is sufficient, as welll as Ward vs. Foes, or Enfeebling Blood, or Ethereal Burden, etc. Weakness by warrirors is, well, sub-par compared to other methods of protecting your vulnerable teammates. Not to mention that it's quite slow.

[quote] To that end, a Warrior that can also inflict particular status conditions that inhibit (or damn near negate) the damage output of an incoming aggressor is a tremendous benefit to the team.[/quote]
A warrior can't even come close to "damn near negating" another warrior's DPS. Weakness might hurt your regular swings, but they do nothing agaist the bonus damage of special attacks, so if they are running well-put-together adrenaline build or, god forbid, a Flourish-based energy attack build, Weakness will barely affect them. If you want to stop another warriors with your own, I suggest "cripple and run," I really do.

[quote] You can Deep Wound and Cripple all you want, but if that attacker is already swinging away, Deep Wounding him won't help mitigate the damage being inflicted. Plus, an Axe War has 3x the number of Deep Wound skills.[/quote]
Deep Wound is not a defensive skill, it's an aggressive skill ^_^ Why would you even bring it up in the situation you are describing and then try to analyze its effectiveness in defense?

[quote] Cripple will be useless (unless you intercept beforehand, but that's best left to a Ranger or Sword War anyway).[/quote]
Actually, I hate it when a sword warrior hamstrings me in order to let his monk and mesmer run away and have the mesmer hex me into submission.
Also, as a warrior myself I use cripple as an offensive tactic. I run in, cripple the monk, and then watch him stumble his way nowhere as I chop him up.

[quote] A Hammer War specializes in KDs and disruption, yes. But the KDs and disruptive skills of a Hammer War are completely overshadowed by a good Necromesmer (either combination) or Ranger...Interrupts, anyone? ~_^[/quote]
KD *is* disruption. We're not talking about distanced disruption like what Mesmers and Rangers are capable of. KD warriros aren't for "shutdown," they're for just generally being a huge nuisance to a monk as well as a damage machine. KD is good because it keeps them from running, and it may occasionally stop a skill (especially if you time it right and watch their skill use bar). More importantly, perhaps, KD increases the output of Aftershock, which is why the KD/AS build is so popular (and bloody effective) in PVP.

[quote] Devastating Hammer is the best choice for KD with a 7 Adre cost, but why use D.Hammer when you're going after the squishies? After all, we are both agreed that Weakness doesn't matter for casters. If you're going Anti-Squishy (now that's a fun term!), Backbreaker or Earth Shaker is going to be a better option, even if it costs 3 more Adre.

With B.B. or E.S., you've still got the KD (B.B...4 seconds, which is not bad for caster-hate, and E.S. is AoE KD, which is nice for grouped caster-hate) and you're not inflicting a condition that ultimately doesn't matter to your target. D.Hammer vs Squishies is a waste of a skill slot, I think.[/quote]
Indeed, I use Backbreaker myself in my Hammer War build ^_^

[quote] But if you're acting as a Hammer Intercept? D.Hammer is fantastic, because not only are you going to disrupt the attack speed, you're also mitigating that damage output for when that foe gets back up. It's a two birds with one stone situation, basically.[/quote]
You're talking about specifically using it against Warriors. But this whole time I have been telling you, leave the anti-warrior fighting to other professions. They're better at it. I can't believe you'd even consider to waste an Elite slot on inflicting weakness on a warrior when a Necro's Enfeeble costs 5 energy and is nearly spammable.

[quote] That's not to say Hammer Wars can't do KD/disruption, but in the thick of things? I'd say let the Mes, Nec, or Ranger handle disrupting those casters. They're designed to do that. Hammer Wars can, but by the time they're swinging at those casters, a Mes or Nec could have already shutdown that Ele or Monk. Three, maybe four Hexes and they're not going to be doing anything. Let's not forget the Rangers doing interrupts and Ranger/Mes or Mes/Ranger is a frightening thought for casters.[/quote]
Hammer Wars aren't for shutdown. What they "disrupt" is the attempted escape of their targets ^_^ by timing knockdowns well.

[quote] And then it keeps coming back to the question of if other classes are tailored for disruption and interrupts, why have a Hammer War do it? Why not focus on Intercepts, or behaving like the Meatshields Wars are designed to be? Hammer Wars are a really neat idea because on top of having the KDs, they have the important anti-physical condition inflictions, including Blind, which, interestingly enough, is a side effect from Belly Smash (though the recharge on Belly Smash is a bit long), which is best utilized against a knocked-down foe, which is exactly what happens with D.Hammer, which is a skill that causes Weakness, which is a physical damage mitigator, which is best used against characters who depend on physical damage in order to be useful on the battlefield.[/quote]
Belly Smash is seriously one of the worst hammer skills ever, unless you're playing PVE and farming Griffons or something ^_^ Warriors never surround my hammer war in PVP.

[quote] So when all is said and done, Hammer Wars don't get the short end of the stick when it comes to condition infliction. Necs overshadow them, of course, but Necs (and Mes) overshadow most professions in the game when it comes to shutdown.[/quote]
Try a condition-stacking Ranger, Sword Warrior, or Axe Warrior build, and you'll never go back to Hammer ^_^. Hammers DO get the short end of the stick when it comes to condition stacking. The adrenaline charges for their moves are just way too high for that sort of strategy in comparison to how efficient other ones are.

[quote] But a Hammer Wars role isn't to inflict continuous conditions, right? Their condition infliction is only temporary. But Wars are designed to act as the buffer, to provide a moment for the squishy targets to get out of the way. They provide a temporary reprieve (at least, designed to) for their squishy allies, and inflicting temp Blind and Weakness is certainly one of those temporary reprieves.[/quote]
Well, you *can* play your Warrior in that role, but then I think you are not utilizing him to the best of his abilities. Other professions can use far fewer resources to get the "temporary reprieve" than what a Warrior would spend. At least in PVP.

[quote] Regarding your question about why you like the 10% Furious mod...Hammers have the slowest swing time. Adre is gained through either taking damage or giving damage. Furious mods double Adre gain occasionally. Hmmm...I wonder why you prefer Furious Hammer Mods. Berserker's Stance may prove useful for building Adre. Ends if you use a skill, but if you're just using it to charge, the increased attack speed plus boosted Adre gain for 10 seconds isn't bad. Recharge is 30, but for building Adre...I can't see that being an issue.[/quote]
^_^ All of the Hammer elites are high-adrenaline. A 10% Furious mod will save me a turn almost ever time. Oh, and of course Berserker Stance is a must.

[quote] To answer your question about the build, currently I'm fooling around with a Counter Blow/Mighty Blow/Disrupting Blow/ViM/Belly Smash build. Level 16 W/R in Sanctum Cay, and yes, I did go for a run. ~_^[/QUOTE]
Hmmm... a Victory is Mine Hammer Warrior... I don't think I like it very much. May I offer some suggestions?
First of all, ViM is primarily for gaining back energy (the life is nice though), and Hammers are best when you have lots of adrenaline, not energy. You can use energy-based attacks such as Power Attack, but those attacks help Swords and Axes more, actually (Ensign figured it out one day). ViM can be used like an instant Flourish to maintain DPS and keep you alive as well ^_^. To that end, a far more efficient build (and one that is much better at staying alive on top of that) is a W/E Earth tank that uses a Sword, (or a W/N condition stacker... though W/Ns are way worse at tanking if they focus on that stuff).
Go 10 Earth, 14-15 Tactics, and the rest Swordsmanship. Then take Balanced Stance, Desperation Blow, and Sever. Those first 2 take 5 energy each, and ViM covers for that quite nicely (especially since Desperation Blow inflicts a condition every time and very efficiently for a warrior). Balanced Stance will keep you from falling when you use it, and it's a very high-damage attack on top of inflicting conditions.
The rest of the skills, I'll leave for you to figure out ^_^.

A level 16 in Sanctum Cay... well, I've been using a Warrior for over 500 hours at this point, and won 2 GvGs yesterday with my Hammer War. I don't want to say that experience means everything, but please consider my friendly suggestions, as I only use what's been working best for me ^_^.

Desbreko · October 20, 2005

[color=#4B0082]If anyone feels like being nice, Arik Desbreko is now taking any and all donations of glittering dust. I still need about 850 more to craft enough vellum for his 8k ascetic's designs, but I've got all the necessary wood and money. So now I'm just waiting till I can gather enough dust.

I found I can salvage dust from all the enslavement stones I get down in Sorrow's Furnace, so that's been making things go a lot faster. But, at about 6-8 dust per stone, 850 is still a lot. So any donations would be much appreciated. ^_^[/color]

Brasil · October 21, 2005

[quote name='Warmaster']Just keep one and use a Ranger's Winter or Greater Conflagration to add the versatility you need. If elemental damage is important at the time, then you're probably going to take such a ranger with you anyway.[/quote] Largely, it doesn't matter to me. When I need Ele damage, w00t! Largely, I don't. Either my Furious, Zealous, or Ebon do just fine. Plus the Ebon is the War Pick (and customizing the pre-order items...that was a surprise. I never thought it was possible.), so I've got +20% damage on there. A few smidgens off from max damage isn't as bad as people say. I'm not noticing any difference.

[quote]Well, many people will tell you many different things, because it's all about what you play. In PVE, they're tanks, but in PVP, I'd say they're the main damage output. Warriors are capable of far more consistent DPS than any other class, and by quite a margin. As long as they don't go defensive, that is.

If I may humbly disagree, I find myself targeting the Monk, followed by the Mesmer, then Necro, then Elem, then Ranger, and finally Warrior. Warriors have armor that's basically built to withstannd melee attacks, and the armor penetration of Elems as well as the DoT hexes of Mesmers and Necros are what is best suited for taking them out. As a Warrior, I target everyone but other warrirors ^_^ (until they're the only ones left standing). I find the same is true with teams that go against us; I'm always the last to really be taken down.

I agree that a really good Mesmer and a really good Necro can make your job as a War downright miserable, but if you have a condition/hex removal Monk on your team, just call out your conditions/hexes with ctrl+click and keep swinging away. That's why many good 8v8 teams have 3 monks. One for healing, one for protection, one for condition/hex removal.

But, we're not talking about the warrior "shutting someone down" (although a good War/Mes *can* ^^), or at least I wasn't. I am talking about warrior damage output, and no matter how you slice it, no other profession can match it. Warrirors are victim to damage reducing hexes and snares and such, but as I said above, an attentive Monk will keep those things off the War and let him do his job ^_^

In PVE, I'd have to definitely agree that most warriors are best at just being "tanks," essentially getting in the way of the monsters attacking the healers. In PVP, however, there are better ways of stopping the warriors who are after your own monks and mesmers. A simple "cripple and move on" is sufficient, as welll as Ward vs. Foes, or Enfeebling Blood, or Ethereal Burden, etc. Weakness by warrirors is, well, sub-par compared to other methods of protecting your vulnerable teammates. Not to mention that it's quite slow.

A warrior can't even come close to "damn near negating" another warrior's DPS. Weakness might hurt your regular swings, but they do nothing agaist the bonus damage of special attacks, so if they are running well-put-together adrenaline build or, god forbid, a Flourish-based energy attack build, Weakness will barely affect them. If you want to stop another warriors with your own, I suggest "cripple and run," I really do.

Deep Wound is not a defensive skill, it's an aggressive skill ^_^ Why would you even bring it up in the situation you are describing and then try to analyze its effectiveness in defense?

Actually, I hate it when a sword warrior hamstrings me in order to let his monk and mesmer run away and have the mesmer hex me into submission.

Also, as a warrior myself I use cripple as an offensive tactic. I run in, cripple the monk, and then watch him stumble his way nowhere as I chop him up.

KD *is* disruption. We're not talking about distanced disruption like what Mesmers and Rangers are capable of. KD warriros aren't for "shutdown," they're for just generally being a huge nuisance to a monk as well as a damage machine. KD is good because it keeps them from running, and it may occasionally stop a skill (especially if you time it right and watch their skill use bar). More importantly, perhaps, KD increases the output of Aftershock, which is why the KD/AS build is so popular (and bloody effective) in PVP.

Indeed, I use Backbreaker myself in my Hammer War build ^_^

You're talking about specifically using it against Warriors. But this whole time I have been telling you, leave the anti-warrior fighting to other professions. They're better at it. I can't believe you'd even consider to waste an Elite slot on inflicting weakness on a warrior when a Necro's Enfeeble costs 5 energy and is nearly spammable.

Hammer Wars aren't for shutdown. What they "disrupt" is the attempted escape of their targets ^_^ by timing knockdowns well.

Belly Smash is seriously one of the worst hammer skills ever, unless you're playing PVE and farming Griffons or something ^_^ Warriors never surround my hammer war in PVP.

Try a condition-stacking Ranger, Sword Warrior, or Axe Warrior build, and you'll never go back to Hammer ^_^. Hammers DO get the short end of the stick when it comes to condition stacking. The adrenaline charges for their moves are just way too high for that sort of strategy in comparison to how efficient other ones are.

Well, you *can* play your Warrior in that role, but then I think you are not utilizing him to the best of his abilities. Other professions can use far fewer resources to get the "temporary reprieve" than what a Warrior would spend. At least in PVP.

^_^ All of the Hammer elites are high-adrenaline. A 10% Furious mod will save me a turn almost ever time. Oh, and of course Berserker Stance is a must.

Hmmm... a Victory is Mine Hammer Warrior... I don't think I like it very much. May I offer some suggestions?
First of all, ViM is primarily for gaining back energy (the life is nice though), and Hammers are best when you have lots of adrenaline, not energy. You can use energy-based attacks such as Power Attack, but those attacks help Swords and Axes more, actually (Ensign figured it out one day). ViM can be used like an instant Flourish to maintain DPS and keep you alive as well ^_^. To that end, a far more efficient build (and one that is much better at staying alive on top of that) is a W/E Earth tank that uses a Sword, (or a W/N condition stacker... though W/Ns are way worse at tanking if they focus on that stuff).
Go 10 Earth, 14-15 Tactics, and the rest Swordsmanship. Then take Balanced Stance, Desperation Blow, and Sever. Those first 2 take 5 energy each, and ViM covers for that quite nicely (especially since Desperation Blow inflicts a condition every time and very efficiently for a warrior). Balanced Stance will keep you from falling when you use it, and it's a very high-damage attack on top of inflicting conditions.
The rest of the skills, I'll leave for you to figure out ^_^.

A level 16 in Sanctum Cay... well, I've been using a Warrior for over 500 hours at this point, and won 2 GvGs yesterday with my Hammer War. I don't want to say that experience means everything, but please consider my friendly suggestions, as I only use what's been working best for me ^_^.[/QUOTE] Warmaster, I wanted to go point-by-point here, because there's a lot of good stuff going on in your post, but I wanted to sum up and then reply.

Basically, your point is that a Hammer War focusing on KD/disruption shouldn't be targeting other Wars because other classes' (Nec and Mes) are much more able to handle playing Anti-Warrior.

Further, a Hammer War is concerned with damage output, and targeting another War is going to have a drastic effect on that damage output, due to the War's "armor vs physical."

Further, because a Hammer War's condition infliction is sub-par when compared to other characters, the Hammer War's main concern should be acting as it's designed to: KD/disruption, as you said, "the attempted escape of their targets by timing knockdowns well."

So far this is an appropriate summation, I trust?

A Hammer War acts as a nuisance to casters, because it's foolish of the Hammer War to act as a nuisance to anyone else, due to the above-stated reasons.

So, basically, a Hammer War should target squishies because other classes completely overshadow the Hammer War in targeting other Wars.

A Hammer War needs to get up close and personal to be a threat to those squishy targets.

He needs to be able to swing to be a threat.

As he approaches the squishies, he enters the "danger zone," where he becomes fresh meat for any Mesmer or Necro or Prot Monk carrying Pacifism.

All it takes is Cripple, or Pacifism, or Shadow of Fear, or Sympathetic Visage (on the HamWar's target), or Price of Failure, or Empathy, or Enfeeble, or Spiteful Spirit, or Spirit Shackles, or Ineptitude, or Clumsiness, or Enervating Charge, or Lightning Javelin, or Glimmering Mark, or Blind (from either Blinding Flash, Throw Dirt, Ineptitude, Glimmering Mark...that list goes on and on)...and then all that careful planning that HamWar and his team just did goes right out the window.

Five of the above skills are from Mes. And we all know just how many Mes Hexes there are.

Five there are Nec.

A few there are Ele.

Those are just off the top of my head, and you could probably find them in any good Mes/Nec/Ele skill set that would anticipate the War running up like that. There are at least 7 Hexes there, a handful of conditions, a KD, and an Interrupt or two. Keep in mind that's just scraping the surface of those three profs, and not even touching Ranger.

Explain to me why it's a good idea for a Hammer War to put himself in that kind of position, even with a 3-Monk support team behind him? In a matter of seconds, it seems highly likely that War is going to be Hexed fifteen different ways, inflicted with 3 or 4 conditions at once and 8 Hex/Condition removal skills are going to be adequate...am I missing something here?

On top of all of that, compare a HamWar's disrupt abilities to those shutdowns of a Nec, Mes, or Ranger...and that HamWar's disruptions are just as ineffective as if you compared the HamWar to a Nec, Mes, or Ranger in the context of disrupting a War.

So why target Monk (or any squishies)? Mes, Nec, and Rangers can shutdown casters long before the HamWar will get there, and I think the HamWar's goal is ultimately irrelevant because of that. Disruption or not, the HamWar just gets shown-up when it comes to caster-hate. And you're absolutely right, too: he's just a nuisance.

Just like he'd be a nuisance to Warriors if he went after them. You're a HamWar concentrating on KD/disruption. How is that going to be any less effective when played against a War?

Let's not forget that since you're concentrating on KD/disruption, you don't care about status conditions, so the Weakness condition of D.Hammer is merely an undesired perk for using that skill. That's "undesired" in the sense that Weakness isn't why you're using the skill, by the way.

Oh, at equal levels in Hammer and Curses, D.Hammer and Enfeeble inflict the same duration of Weakness. Something to think about, especially when playing the HamWar.

You're in HamWar for the KD/disruption, right? The KD/disruption happens with anyone you go up against. D.Hammer is a KD and it also causes Weakness. Using it against a War is not useless at all, especially considering you can get the same duration as you'd get with Enfeeble. You're knocking someone down anyway. Why not make that someone a character that will actually suffer?

My reply here is exceedingly rambly, because I'm pretty exhausted, but I'm not seeing any real, convincing argument why HamWars should only target casters, because the reasons given for the caster-hate can be utilized in a case against using HamWars for caster-hate.

Do you get what I'm saying here? HamWars target casters because Necs and Mes are better for anti-warrior...but Necs and Mes are also exponentially better for anti-caster, as well, so the same logic used for the HamWar Caster-hate can be used against the HamWar Caster-hate.

The entire case for HamWar Caster-hate does not support using a HamWar for Caster-hate.

And plus, isn't there Dwarven Battle Stance for HamWars handling disruption? One stance has the potential to make an entire skill set useless. 30 second recharge, but still.

October 21, 2005

Well, while you do have logical reasoning behind what you say, it really doesn't sound to me like you are speaking from experience... The truth of the matter is, in Guild Wars there are so many hypothetical scenarios possible that you can really go back-and-forth endlessly about what will and will not work. To say that warriors are worse at taking down less-armored targets than other characters are, is just strange to me, because of how many kills I score against such characters as a Warrior. Try a good, level 20 Warrior build that's been field-tested already, and put it to work. You'll find that the Warrior is *exceptional* at killing other casters, provided that he has backup.

You might say that well, backup isn't always there. But, if there isn't any backup for whoever the Warrior is going after, more than likely they're going to be in a pretty tight spot too.

Also, to throw something of a wrench into your arguments, you say that warriors are not as good at being anti-caster as some other professions. Wouldn't you think, then, that those other professions are going to be higher priority targets on your team? Well, indeed they are! And, as a result, you'll find in 8v8 PVP that the Warrior is almost an afterthought for the opposition. This lets the Warrior do as he pleases, damn-near uninhibited, for a very long time.

Keep in mind that I'm talking in generalities here. There are exceptions to every situation. Sometimes I'm targeted first, which the monks don't expect, and I die. But, sometimes I am targeted first, and due to high armor, and my monk's *attentiveness,* it ends up being a tactical error for the opposing team. There are so many scenarios...

I guess the point is, it's one thing to talk "hypothetically," which it appears to me you are doing, and another to talk from experience. Hypothetically, you can face so many different kinds of teams and opponents that really every build starts to look pretty abysmal as far as versatitlity and threat level ^_^ However, speaking from experience, you end up with a different impresssion.

I have flawlessed Korean teams with nothing but KD/AS warriors and highly competent Monks in the team. I have in general done quite a bit of arse kicking as a warrior, and really ask you to just consider testing out what I tell you rather than just dismissing it on speculation. If you really think that your job as a hammer war is to go vs. other warriors and inflict weakness on them, then go for it, but you'll be doing the rest of your team quite a disservice by ignoring so much of your potential.

Explore the warrior a bit more, Brasil. A level 16 W/R shouldn't be enough to create a proper impression of what you are capable of ^_^

To sum up the whole "Necros and Mesmers being better at anti-caster," I'd like to point out that shutdown is all well and good, but your own mesmers and necros are targets of shutdown as well. Something needs to actually *kill* the opposing players. That's the Warrior's job ^_^

Brasil · October 21, 2005

[quote name='Warmaster']If you really think that your job as a hammer war is to go vs. other warriors and inflict weakness on them, then go for it, but you'll be doing the rest of your team quite a disservice by ignoring so much of your potential.[/quote] That's not what I'm saying at all. What I am saying is that if you're going for disruption, why not disrupt those who will actually care about the side effects? Disruption is disruption either way. You either disrupt casters or you disrupt physical attackers. Using KDs, it doesn't matter whom you're going up against.

With competent Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers...the HamWar doesn't need to give two shits about the opposing Monk. I've played Mesmer and Necro extensively since August Beta of 04, and I'm more than able to guarantee that a Monk isn't going to be doing anything for most of the match when I can have fun--especially when my own Wars keep the opposition off of me and my fellow spellcasters, the opposition being other Wars.

What I'm saying is that a HamWar Caster-hate is totally irrelevant and useless when the Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers--the anti-Casters of the game--know what they're doing.

It goes like this:

My fellow Mesmers, Necros, Rangers and I have made the opposing casters' lives miserable. They can't do anything. They've been Power Blocked, Interrupted, Dazed; they've learned how cruel Mark of Subversion, Guilt, and Shame are. Concussion Shot has become the bane of their existence, as has Epidemic.

What could a HamWar possibly do there to further debilitate the opposition casters that those Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers couldn't do 10x better?

I'm not talking about killing casters here. I'm talking about shutting them down in such a way they might as well be dead.

This isn't speaking in hypotheticals. This is speaking from a guy who's been playing the "f-ck-you-up" classes for a long time now. ^_^

[quote]To sum up the whole "Necros and Mesmers being better at anti-caster," I'd like to point out that shutdown is all well and good, but your own mesmers and necros are targets of shutdown as well. Something needs to actually *kill* the opposing players. That's the Warrior's job ^_^[/QUOTE] Exactly why I said earlier that the only real threats to Mesmers and Necros are other Mesmers and Necros. And that's why I see the target priority currently as kind of silly. Monks aren't the top priority. Mesmers and Necros are, because if your offense is getting shut down (and we've both seen the horrors of coordinated duos of Mesmers/Necros), that Monk isn't going to fall.

It's why Mesmer is listed as the more advanced class of the game: it requires a level of attention and a metagame that transcends most other professions--except Necros, because those two classes function on similar wavelengths.

Teams I've been on have wrecked Korean teams in Tombs because I know how to use Mesmer and Necro. Don't get me wrong: I'm not saying I was the sole reason the Korean team fell within 30 seconds. That's not what I'm implying at all. I'm saying that when played well, Mesmers and Necros rule the battlefield. There's simply no contest.

What was the quote from The Matrix? It applies here. lol

"Tell me, Mr. Anderson, what good is a phone call when you are unable to speak?"

Same principle applies here. Mesmers and Necros can take away any phone you may have, because they can take away your ability to speak.

October 21, 2005

I think you are missing the point of the Hammer warrior entirely. His role is not shutdown, it's not pure disruption, no. The job of the warrior is to inflict major DPS. I assume you've heard of War Machine and their 4-warrior GvG build, yes? When warriors are well protected, they can take down low-armor targets in moments. Hammer wars deal 50+ damage a hit to monks. Run in with Berserker Stance and build up a KD/AS combo, and that Mesmer or Monk better know what he's doing (and better hope that the Hammer War sucks at calling and therefore has no backup ^_^) because otherwise he's toast.

I've played my share of the other professions as well; don't think I've been a mindless kd/as hammer warrior for the last several months. I just know that high DPS warriors fill a very important role in a well-balanced team, and that role is not to take down other warriors. Did you forget that other professions do that better? Or have you seriously only played against really crappy warriors ^_^

I think that saying Mesmer is "the most advanced" is a bit like saying that "Zerg are the most advanced Starcraft race." It's really only half-true and even then only when you're talking about trying to learn the game. Once you get into the upper tiers of playing, it's just as hard to be *good enough* with any combination of professions. Because as many E/Mo smiters as there are, there's as much anti-E/Mo strategy. So you can't play predictably and by-the-book and expect to always win.

Brasil, it truly does seem to me like you are speaking from very limited experience. You have played mesmer and necro, and think that they rule the day against casters. Do you actually kill those casters? Probably not, and as long as they stay alive, they are using up your character on them. Think about that. It's not like you can seriously shut down two players at once, not really. Those players need to die so that your team can move on to the next guy. The warrior's job is to put those players out of their misery.

I get the impression that you keep considering 1v1's in PVP or something. When you play PVP, don't you call a target and cooperatively bring him down? The mesmer blocks spells and perhaps snares, the elementalist provides ranged damage, and the warrior closes in for the kill. KD/AS hammer wars are damage machines, and do a great job at the *killing*.

Brasil · October 21, 2005

Warmaster, there was never any disagreement on a War functioning for high DPS. Apart from particular highly-specialized Ele or Ranger builds (or Mesmer), there's little else that can match the DPS of a War. DPS was never an issue here. It was never a basis for anything I've been saying, because here's how the discussion went:

You initially said that HamWars are good at disruption and thus that's why they target squishies and casters.

I countered that with they're completely overshadowed at all forms of disruption by Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers.

You followed by making a distinction between being a HamWar "nuisance" and the total shutdown possible from Mes, Nec, Rang, as if the HamWar disruption goal is justified because it's nothing more than looking to disrupt.

But the problem there--and a point I did raise earlier--is that if the so-called "support" classes are going to out-perform the HamWar in the general idea of "disruption," why should the HamWar even try to disrupt in the first place? At that point, he's doing nothing more than pretending to be anti-Caster.

Now that's pretty much indisputable right there. A HamWar running up to a caster because that HamWar is going to do some disrupting is mind-bogglingly misguided, particularly when there are Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers on that HamWar's team. Objectively, the HamWar is useless in that context.

But when I point that out, the HamWar's goal is suddenly major DPS? Come on, dude. lol

More and more, the more you describe this entire tactic--regardless of how much experience, how many wins, etc--it's had...the only two ways it's going to be effective are as follows:

1) There are no Mesmers, Necros, or Rangers at all in the entire battle.

2) There are, and they don't know what they're doing.

If you're running on a build that is similar to the highly situational 3-Monk, Ele, War build you've been describing here...the only reason it's working is because the teams you've faced didn't have properly-operating Mesmers, Necros, and Rangers.

I guarantee that if I had my own personal group of 2-3 Mes/Nec/Rangers...the 3-monk system will get destroyed. All it'll take are two Power Blocks (and honestly, speaking from personal experience playing Mes, no self-respecting Interrupt Domination Mesmer will not bring Power Block) and a handful of Interrupts and then that opposing build will have no healing, no prot, and very, very limited Hex/Cond removal.

If you've got a HamWar going after casters to do minimalist disruption at best, then that proves to me that your team just simply does not have true anti-Caster capabilities. Your HamWar doing disruption of casters is a War pretending that he's a Mesmer. He's pretending that he's a Necro. He's pretending that he's a Ranger with a short bow and Interrupts out the wazoo.

If you're forgoing the disruption after I've explicitly stated why HamWars suck at it when there are anti-Caster classes working, and instead of disruption, you want the major DPS a War is good for, here's where Weakness (no matter what skill it's coming from, mind), Pacifism, Shadow of Fear, Sympathetic Visage, Spirit Shackles--certainly, the entire list I posted earlier--comes back into this discussion.

What good is a HamWar who's only doing 33% of his total damage output, who's now attacking at 50% of his total attack speed, who's missing at least 25% of the time, and losing energy each time he misses, who's losing all of his Adre and 3 energy each time he connects with a hit...you get the idea by now, and I think you got the idea a long time ago, which would explain the recent meandering about, hopping from topic to topic.

What I'm talking about here isn't 1v1. What I'm talking about here is the fact that you're depending on Monks to keep you alive and not considering just what the opposition can really do to you if they know what they're doing--not to mention what the opposition is going to be doing to your Monks, as well.

To put it bluntly as possible, I'm not the one focused on 1v1. I'm not the one saying how the War can Control-Click to announce those Hexes and Conditions so he can keep swinging away and remain [i]solely[/i] focused on that [i]one[/i] squishy caster he has in his sights.

The fact that I'm considering what other classes are going to be doing--and what I would do if you ran up to one of my casters--is proof enough that a 1v1 is not my focus here at all.

Fact of the matter is, while the HamWar may be the king in War DPS...he's also the most vulnerable to just about everything.

He has minimalist and average disruption and if played in a Mesmer/Necro-free environment, he's going to be the best disruptor you'll see. But once a Mesmer, Necro, or even a Ranger steps in...that HamWar just became a burly lump of meat swinging a Hammer.

And he's only effective when he's able to swing that Hammer. His DPS depends on being able to swing that Hammer, just like all Wars. But, drawing upon The Matrix phone analogy, other classes can take away that War's DPS if they're so inclined...and they will be so inclined. A Hex/Cond removal Monk can only do so much. And they can only do very little when you've got a team (even just two) of Mesmers, Necros, or Rangers working together.

The War makes himself a target by going after a Monk? He shouldn't enjoy what happens after that.

I can see an AxeWar or even a SwordWar going after a Monk. Their abilities are more tailored to fast damage infliction while simultaneously having melee attacks that will disrupt spells. Savage Slash, for example.

But a HamWar? Whose KD/disruption skills border on irrelevant to a spellcaster to begin with? If they want to kill things, fine.

But if you've got a character who can disrupt and KD...and cause true anti-Warrior conditions (Weakness, for example) while they're at it...they should consider targeting the Wars, because that's where the KDs will be most effective, and that's where the side effects will be most effective.

This isn't about "OMG your purpose is to inflict Weakness on that Warrior," a point which I explicitly clarified previously. This is about using the HamWar for what he's good at: KDs. His DPS is an incidental, as far as I'm concerned, because a solid Mesmer or Necro can make him a lame duck in terms of DPS.

Given the HamWar's slower attack speed and dependence on a type of "pause*HIT*pause*HIT*pause*HIT*" rhythm...leave the massive DPS to an AxeWar, because he won't suffer like the HamWar will from so many of those delicious anti-War Hexes, Enchants, and Conditions.

To sum up...I'm not missing anything here. I'm not missing the point of Wars at all, and I'm not speaking from limited experience, either, Warmaster. I'm speaking from extensive experience playing the *true* anti-Caster/anti-Warrior/"gonna f-ck you up real bad" classes.

The more and more we discuss this, the more and more I'm convinced that entire 3-Monk/Ele/War build is completely one-dimensional. It has one or two particular strengths, but it has two flaws and vulnerabilities for every strength.

And I'm more and more convinced now that those flaws and weaknesses have not been considered by the designers; had there been consideration given to the dangers of a Monk triplet with individual specializations...there would be no Monk triplet with individual specializations. "Don't put all your eggs in one basket" is pretty relevant here.

October 21, 2005

Well, it seems you are much more stubborn than I realised. So, I am dropping the issue. I don't really care enough to discuss it, because you are obviously much more willing to write 2 screen-lengths about something you know next-to-nothing about than go ahead and actually try it. I rather just run into your oh-so-powerful Mesmer in PVP sometime and pound you into the ground than try to convince you here and now that you don't know what you're talking about. Honestly, if you think you can just sit on your arse and hypothesize how to defeat guild builds of top-ranked guilds, then I wonder why you're not at the top of the GvG ladder yourself, haha.

Anyway, I'm through with this discussion. If this thread turns to something interesting, I'll return to it. For the time being, I'd rather just play the game.

Brasil · October 22, 2005

[QUOTE=Warmaster]Well, it seems you are much more stubborn than I realised. So, I am dropping the issue. I don't really care enough to discuss it, because you are obviously much more willing to write 2 screen-lengths about something you know next-to-nothing about than go ahead and actually try it. I rather just run into your oh-so-powerful Mesmer in PVP sometime and pound you into the ground than try to convince you here and now that you don't know what you're talking about. Honestly, if you think you can just sit on your arse and hypothesize how to defeat guild builds of top-ranked guilds, then I wonder why you're not at the top of the GvG ladder yourself, haha.

Anyway, I'm through with this discussion. If this thread turns to something interesting, I'll return to it. For the time being, I'd rather just play the game.[/QUOTE] Warmaster, if you were willing to provide a cogent, specific argument and an analysis of what skills are going to work for and against that strategy, I'd be more inclined to agree. But as it stands, your entire rebuttals were little more than self-contradictory rubbish.

If you want me to see your side at all there...you needed to explain why your team build wasn't using Mesmers, Necros, or Rangers to act as the anti-Casters. You needed to explain why using a HamWar as caster disruption was somehow better than letting the true anti-Caster classes do their jobs.

And you never, ever did any of that.

You needed to explain why a HamWar shouldn't look to disrupt Wars, even if it's just the KD and Weakness side effect.

Instead of doing that, all you did was flip-flop between HamWars being used for disruption or major DPS. You gave absolutely no specifics regarding the team build you were using, apart from an occasional reference to another guild's team build.

Come on. I don't know what I'm talking about? I know next-to-nothing? You were posting meaningless and vague arguments and trying to pass them off as worthwhile.

When you're talking about a Monk triplet, for example, and not even realize that two Power Blocks are going to completely ruin that entire set-up?

Come on, man. Even I know not to overfocus like that. Some builds require overspecialization. That Monk triplet is not overspecialization. It's nothing more than opening up an entire strategy to Power Block, and you can see it just as well as I can.

You make it pretty obvious you hang around GWGuru forums, by the way.

[quote name='Sciros']Gentlemen, seems we have a natural Sherlock Holmes on these forums -_-[/quote]
No, Dmitry. You dropping the name of one GWG member is hardly making it obvious. What makes it obvious is the downright lousy debate methods in your posts here and 95% of the posts over there. Let's be honest here. The only way most of those people over there can reply is if they are able to misrepresent the point of the post they're replying to. You were trying to pull that same kind of garbage here.

So until you're prepared to actually have a discussion with sound, reasonable, and valid arguments and not merely relying on vagaries and misrepresentations, don't waste my time, or anyone else's time. Simple as that.

October 22, 2005

[quote name='Brasil'] You make it pretty obvious you hang around GWGuru forums, by the way.[/quote]
[quote name='Warmaster'](Ensign figured it out one day)[/quote]

Gentlemen, seems we have a natural Sherlock Holmes on these forums -_-

Annie · October 22, 2005

[size=1]Hmph, interesting.

Well, I came up with a new class (whoo, what a surprise), and decided I should let you all see..who haven't seen her already. She's an Elementalist/Mesmer, and her name is Vernita Greene. You may recognize the name if you are a Kill Bill fan ^_~ Of course, the exact way it's spelt had been taken, so I improvised. *click images to enlarge*[/size]

[URL=http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/anne-mae/verncata.jpg][IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/anne-mae/th_verncata.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/anne-mae/verncata2.jpg][IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/anne-mae/th_verncata2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

[URL=http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/anne-mae/vern2.jpg][IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b7/anne-mae/th_vern2.jpg[/IMG][/URL]

Pumpkin · October 23, 2005

[SIZE=1]I have a few things that I don't need and would be willing to give to those who need them....

[u]Crafting Materials[/u]
[b]# Item[/b]
157 Shells
104 Iron Ingots
7 Leather Squares
6 Bolts of Silk
108 Wooden Planks
169 Tanned Hide
29 Scales
5 Fur Squares
110 Bones
6 feathers
108 Glittering Dust

[u]Dyes[/u]
1 Blue
2 Yellow

[u]Other Items[/u]
[COLOR=#663366][b]Archanist Wrappings of Major Protection Prayers[/b][/COLOR]
Salvage Item
Armor : 39
[COLOR=#663366]Improves Protection Prayers
Health -50[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#CC9933][b]Seared Armguard of Major Protection Prayers[/b][/COLOR]
Salvage Item
Armor : 40
[COLOR=#CC9933]Improves Protection Prayers
Health -50[/COLOR]

[COLOR=#663366][b]Seared Armguard of Major Water Magic[/b][/COLOR]
Salvage Item
Armor : 40
[COLOR=#663366]Improves Water magic
Health -50[/COLOR]

I have no idea what those last items do lol. But I was scared to salvage them, not sure if thats what I'm suppose to do. I've been having trouble ascending since I keep getting beat so easily. Does anyone have any tips on how I might pass the test? It's extremely hard and I know it shouldn't be since my skills are not TOO bad. Advice is appreciated. Oh and by the way if you didn't know, if you want any of these items please send a /whisper to Yazela Dubrin. Thanks. [/SIZE]

October 23, 2005

Pumpkin, next time you find a Gold or Purple armor, SALVAGE it *before* you identify it!!!

First off, you'll *always* get a Rune from it. The reason to salvage before identifying, is you'll know that you have a "Major Warrior Rune" just you won't know which one it is. If you don't need it, sell it to someone and they'll be able to ID it and unlock it for use in PVP. Otherwise, ID it for yourself, unlocking it for PVP.

If that doesn't make sense to you, ask someone else in-game or something and they'll explain it better than me.

Gaming Guild Wars

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