Elegant Gothic Lolita

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I don't find that obviously Western females are quite as cute in the lolita outfits as obviously asian ones. Call me Retard McSpackypants, but the look was started by asians, and it's only fitting that it makes more sense on asians. Of course I also think wigs are a detestable fashion trend from the 1600s that should be abolished. You know, like slavery and opium were. And then there's the propensity of such gothic lolitas to cater to pedophiles with things for cute frilly tea party going chicks. I think trying to look obscenely younger than you are is a vague invitation for trouble. Unless you're doing it at a con. Where it makes sense.

Oh yes, and the fear of gothicism being equal to Devil Worship is rather moronic, if only because the word gothic springs from a form of architecture most commonly found in ...ah...oh...erum...churches? Just remind people when they start mouthing off about how you're one of them Deeeeeevil worshipers.

But I digress.

Either way, it's not like I've never done the fluffy skirt thing with the fishnets and high heels, but then again, I have slightly exotic features being half Chinese. On the other hand, I have to say, the miniature hat thing isn't so cool. I find the little top hats rather ridiculous, when there are so many other cute and adorable head coverings available. I think that while it's fun to play dress up in a manner that most people would find completely insane [see Cosplayers], the lolita part of the situation is vaguely iffy.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Odin M Yggdrasi]

I've been trying to figure something out actually.

There's an image I was given a while ago that is supposed to be Gothic Lolita, however no matter where I look I haven't been able to find any references to this subtype or where to find materials for it- someone I know wants to try wearing a similar outfit just for kicks.

Basically, the type of outfit you see Misa wearing most of the time, that is the kind of Goth Lolita I like.

[url=http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/7609/1127692142sdarkangelnc6.jpg]Here's an example, the image I was given a while ago. Anyone know what branch of goth/goth Lolita this would fall into> [/url]

But yes, I do like the darker-styles of goth and goth Lolita on girls, because if done properly it is quite appealing to me.

[Panache]

When I saw the title of this thread I immediately thought of porn...which is where I think this kind of attire belongs...not in y'know college classes. But hey if you wanna look kinky around school knock yourself out.

[Odin M Yggdrasi]

[quote name='Panache']When I saw the title of this thread I immediately thought of porn...which is where I think this kind of attire belongs...not in y'know college classes. But hey if you wanna look kinky around school knock yourself out.[/QUOTE]


LMAO.

Gothic Lolita isn't porn at all though. It's just a reasonably classic and often misunderstood style of clothing.

Plus stuff like the image I posted earlier isn't even close to porn, it's just showy.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"]The only thing I like this look for is for dress costume parties. Especially Halloween. It just doesn't seem to fit everyday wear. But that's because I never see it around here. It is fun to wear though and when I'm not foolishly allowing my friends to lighten my hair to brown... my black hair goes really well with it. [/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]Personally, I doubt that "elegant" is quite the right word to use for this style. In fact, [I]elegant[/I] to me means something more like [I]mature[/I] and [I]demure[/I] beauty, with graceful bearing. Not [I]childish[/I] and [I]provocative[/I].

Excuse the italics abuse.[/FONT]

[Raiha]

[quote name='Odin M Yggdrasi']Gothic Lolita isn't porn at all though. It's just a reasonably classic and often misunderstood style of clothing.
[/QUOTE]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Are you KIDDING me?ARE YOU INSANE?!

Just any lowly google search for 'gothic lolita porn' with the SafeSearch off reveals a whole host of deliciously ridiculously Nabokovian results.

[URL="http://asianpantypeeks.com/p/moe_outside_blue_dress3.jpg"]http://asianpantypeeks.com/p/moe_outside_blue_dress3.jpg[/URL][/FONT][/COLOR]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Odin M Yggdrasi;']Gothic Lolita isn't porn at all though. It's just a reasonably classic and often misunderstood style of clothing.[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]No, but then again, it makes the fetish that much more accessible. I mean, the point of GL is to put really short skirts on women, so they both look younger and show more.

Plus, [URL="http://www.fantasm-agoria.com/photos/kyuzbc1bhden6vgtcij3.jpg"][COLOR="Blue"]GL[/COLOR][/URL] is just [I]that[/I] far shy of [URL="http://halloween-costume-ideas.org/wp-content/uploads/2006/07/Sexy%20French%20Maid.jpg"][COLOR="Blue"]French Maid[/COLOR][/URL], neh?

Besides, [URL="http://asianpantypeeks.com/p/moe_outside_blue_dress3.jpg"][FONT="Times New Roman"][COLOR="Darkorchid"]Raiha's image[/COLOR][/FONT][/URL] was only [I]not[/I] porn because the chick was wearing clothes in the right places.[/FONT]

[Rachmaninoff]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Personally, I doubt that "elegant" is quite the right word to use for this style. In fact, [I]elegant[/I] to me means something more like [I]mature[/I] and [I]demure[/I] beauty, with graceful bearing. Not [I]childish[/I] and [I]provocative[/I].[/FONT][/QUOTE]That's what I was thinking. It's too childish looking instead of more elegant like some of the Victorian style of dress it's modeled after. The phrase "Elegant Gothic Lolita" is nothing more than a "coined" term to make it more appealing to a wider audience who most likely don't grasp it's intended purpose.

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Childish, yes, provocative, no. Please go have a look at the Gothic Lolita article on Wikipedia. K thanks. =)

I also don't care what your google image search brings up, Raiha. The concept of Gothic Lolita is to imitate the clothing style of a young victorian child or woman (depending on the particular substyle). I am sorry you received such results from google, but as a casual follower of the style, I can assure you the results you are finding are certainly *not* what the message of Gothic Lolita style is about. It is, perhaps, frustrating and sad that you would find such search results, especially when the Gothic Lolita community at large endeavors to truly elimate such pornographic associations with the Gothic Lolita style, but google (image) search is not the be all and end all answer to every question.

I'm not going to delve into the actual details and substyles of the fashion, but should there be anyone interested in pursuing the style, please feel free to PM with questions. Additionally, the EGL lj comm: [url]www.community.livejournal.com/egl/[/url] and related links may be of assistance to anyone interested in reading about what the hell it actually is.

Edit: I also fail to see the merits of the "gothic lolita porn" image results in the context of connecting it with lolita for two reasons: 1) the safe search is off. Searching these words with the safe search on gives no such results and 2) when you search using the word "porn" of course you're going to get provocative images. You can search for "anime porn" and get some pretty racy things, but that doesn't mean that all anime in the entire history of anime was porn, so why should the same generalization have merit for Gothic Lolita? [/color]

[Mihoruru]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]I don't find that obviously Western females are quite as cute in the lolita outfits as obviously asian ones...... Of course I also think wigs are a detestable fashion trend from the 1600s that should be abolished.[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="seagreen"]^^+ i must say that i rather agree with the previous statement. It's just different elements that different people bring into GL and stufz.
However i think i was misunderstood by my mention of wigs. [/COLOR][SIZE="3"][COLOR="SeaGreen"]I was talking about a doll wig...cuz doll's can't grow hair...=.=""[/COLOR][/SIZE]
[COLOR="seagreen"]nobody wears wigs nemore!! (except in the unfortunate case of chemotherapy patients, which i think is very understandable)[/COLOR]
btw, GL is mostly suitable for cosplay nn anime cons and stufz...maybe for halloweenn??...but that's usually as far as it goes. Some simpler versions of elegant lolita can be used for party dresses, but...that's for specific cases only.:animesmil

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]You're cute when you're mad Roxie.

But if you can't grasp tongue in cheek humor then I really wonder why I even- The sake of the image search was just to say that there ARE girls who do the style AND are provocative and hyper sexualized.

Directing someone to a wikipedia page doesn't exactly scream academic accuracy by the way. And your claim that gothic lolita isn't provocative is patently hilarious just linguistically. The term 'lolita' denotes a female who is pubescent or adolescent, pre adolescent, who are seductive or sexually attractive. Read the actual book [u]Lolita[/u] to see what I mean. Perhaps another term in your life style's title might be more beneficial and no longer call to mind the obvious 'I AM A YOUNG GIRL THAT'S TRYING TO BE SEXY SO PLEASE SCREW ME' response.
[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"]Some education if you will:

Lolita (1955) is a novel by Vladimir Nabokov. The novel was first written in English and published in 1955 in Paris, later translated by the author into Russian and published in 1967 in New York. The novel is both internationally famous for its innovative style and infamous for its controversial subject: the book's narrator and protagonist Humbert Humbert becoming sexually obsessed with a twelve-year-old girl named Dolores Haze.

After its publication, the novel attained a classic status, becoming one of the best known and most controversial examples of 20th century literature. The name "Lolita" has entered pop culture to describe a sexually precocious young girl.

Further plot info can be found here: [URL="http://www.reference.com/search?q=Lolita"][U]Lolita[/U][/URL]

Thus ends the lesson.[/COLOR]

[Desbreko]

[color=#4B0082]I just have one question: If there's an Elegant Gothic Lolita style, does that mean there's also an [i]Un[/i]elegant Gothic Lolita style? And what would it look like?[/color]

[Panache]

Wait isn't porn where the term Lolita emerged? That's what I was always told.

Oh and if you wanna dress up in costumes in your every day life feel free...your adults you can wear what you want. But if your gonna wear something like that you should expect people to go up to you on occasion and say "what the **** are you wearing." Why? Because that is really flashy and far from the norm.

[Allamorph]

[quote name='Panache']Wait isn't porn where the term Lolita emerged? That's what I was always told.[/quote]
[FONT=Arial]Well, now. Good for you Indi showed up when she did.
[quote name='indifference'][COLOR="Indigo"]Some education if you will:[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Time to use the "View Post" button. :)[/FONT]

[Panache]

[quote name='Allamorph'][FONT=Arial]Well, now. Good for you Indi showed up when she did.

Time to use the "View Post" button. :)[/FONT][/QUOTE]
I guess I missed that post. My bad.

Oh and very educational.

[Roxie Faye]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]You're cute when you're mad Roxie.[/font][/color][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]Please do not attempt to assume my emotions. I was annoyed, yes, but far, far from mad, and it is annoying and slightly upsetting that you first attribute false emotions to my post, and then mock me for it.[/color]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]But if you can't grasp tongue in cheek humor then I really wonder why I even- The sake of the image search was just to say that there ARE girls who do the style AND are provocative and hyper sexualized.[/font][/color][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]I think you're misunderstanding my position. I understand what you are saying, and I agree: I'm not denying the existence of pictures like you showed me, lol. What I am saying is that pornography and/or provocative images are not the purpose of the Gothic Lolita style. As an analogy, like I said, pornography, fan service, and provocative images exist in anime, but that adult content is not the defining characteristic [i]of[/i] anime.[/color]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Directing someone to a wikipedia page doesn't exactly scream academic accuracy by the way. And your claim that gothic lolita isn't provocative is patently hilarious just linguistically. The term 'lolita' denotes a female who is pubescent or adolescent, pre adolescent, who are seductive or sexually attractive. Read the actual book [u]Lolita[/u] to see what I mean. Perhaps another term in your life style's title might be more beneficial and no longer call to mind the obvious 'I AM A YOUNG GIRL THAT'S TRYING TO BE SEXY SO PLEASE SCREW ME' response.
[/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[color=#9933ff]Pulling out the statement that Wikipedia is unreliable because it is a free source is always a good excuse to invalidate an entire argument. Unfortunately, I also encouraged others to use the EGL comm on lj, and related links on lj, as reliable sources of information on the gothic lolita clothing style. The ladies (and lads) on EGL live and breathe gothic lolita style, so it would stand to reason that they can provide information on the style.

Also, it is not only [i]my[/i] statement that "lolita is NOT a provocative fashion," but the community's statement as a whole. We are forever trying to correct people of the assumption that the Gothic Lolita style has anything to do with the original, Nobokovian (is that a word?) definition of the term "lolita." I have not read the book, but have seen the Adrian Lyne version of the movie, and have also heard my sister talk about it quite a bit at the time she liked it, so I do know the "original" erm... origin of the term.

If you want to complain about the terminology, go right ahead. Hell, at egl we talk about it frequently enough, suggesting alternatives like "victorian fashion" and "frilly-chan" in place of the obviously pejorative "lolita" in the west. But we didn't name the fashion style, we just follow it. Please yell at some obscure group of "scene" people in the 1970s-1980s for naming Gothic Lolita fashion the way it is when they created it.

However, in light of all that, Gothic Lolita fashion is not about dressing provocatively. As I've said, it's about returning to a state of childish innocence and/or Victorian elegance. Think "Alice in Wonderland." in the sense of a young girl going on a silly adventure.

From what I gather from your posts, you're trying to say that Gothic Lolita fashion is all about being provocative and sexy and whoring yourself. Meanwhile, the absolute fact of the matter, steeped in practice and definition, is that it is about childlike innocence, frilly clothes, and very loosely based on Victorian fashion.


Indifference: As I said to Raiha, I have seen the movie, and I was well aware of the Nobokovian definition of "lolita" long before I knew about the Japanese fashion. Please see above paragraphs, etc., etc. Sometimes a word can mean two different things, and in that case it's generally confusing to which one is which. This is one of those times, lol.[/color]


[quote name='Desbreko'][color=#4B0082]I just have one question: If there's an Elegant Gothic Lolita style, does that mean there's also an [i]Un[/i]elegant Gothic Lolita style? And what would it look like?[/color][/QUOTE]
[color=#9933ff]Actually, that's a funny story. The term "ELEGANT Gothic Lolita" is sort of a misnomer. The term for the fashion is actually "Gothic Lolita" or even sometimes just "Lolita" (which gets confusing because there was a style in the 1980s/1990s popularizing a Nabokovian lolita style of fashion. Or something like that? O_o) I've never actually gotten around to asking the official name of the style, and there may not be one. Hell, the west and east can't even agree on terminology in general: Ouji-sama is "Kodona" in the west, and "amaloli" is "sweet lolita" in the west.

But I digress (sorry for the tangent!). "Elegant Gothic Lolita" is a Mana (as in Mana of Malice Mizer and Mois dix mois) terminology for one of his lines of clothes under his Gothic Lolita label "Moi-même-Moitié." In this line of clothing, the Gothic Lolita style is represented, as opposed to his other line "EGA" or "Elegant Gothic Aristocrat," which is a more mature version of the Gothic Lolita style and generally androgynous.

It's all very confusing terminology semantics that makes it confusing in the beginning. The more time you spend looking into the fashion, the easier it gets. That's all I can say. Lol. *shrug*

Edit: If I sound sarcastic, I really don't mean to! I'm actually going more for a "boring teacher in front of the classroom" tone. ;_; I wasn't mad the last time I posted, and I'm not mad now. Just clarifying my emotions for future reference. Kthxbai! :D[/color]

[Allamorph]

[quote name='MistressRoxie'][color=#9933ff]Also, it is not only my statement that "lolita is NOT a provocative fashion," but the community's statement as a whole. We are forever trying to correct people of the assumption that the Gothic Lolita style has anything to do with the original, Nobokovian (is that a word?) definition of the term "lolita."[/color][/QUOTE]
[QUOTE]Wikipedia article: [B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita_fashion"]Lolita Fashion[/URL][/B]; subheading [B][URL="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lolita_fashion#Lolita"]Lolita[/URL][/B]; [FONT=Arial](links)[/FONT]

[I][FONT="Arial"]Although "Lolita" is a reference to Vladimir Nabokov's famous novel, and GothLoli is often worn by teens, most followers of the style do not consider it overtly sexual. Adherents present themselves as Victorian children or baby dolls and prefer to look "cute" rather than "sexy". Many Lolitas claim that the term 'Lolita' doesn't necessarily have anything to do with sex at all.[/FONT][/I][/QUOTE]
[FONT=Arial]So this is not news to me.

However, if you read the book, you'll notice that the subject of the main character's desires, and the one he calls "Lolita", was not intending to come off as "sexy" either.

I just want to make sure you realize, my lady Roxie, that provocation is in the eye of the beholder.

(^_^)[/FONT]

[Raiha]

[COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]So what that all essentially boils down to, and believe me it takes SOME boiling...

...is that you're completely wrong about lolita being provocative but it'd be terribly sad and embarrassing for you to admit it. Got it. And by the way sarcasm apparently runs right over you like oil over a fat woman because the only one doing any assuming here is apparently you. By drowning us in text so we can overlook the part where you have to talk yourself into a position of not feeling like you're wrong.

Because a live journal community is so much more reliable than wikipedia. And the ridiculously short skirts that you would've been caned for wearing in Victorian England are completely innocent. [/FONT][/COLOR]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Allamorph: Duly noted. I understand what you're saying. Of course, as you said, it doesn't change the definition of the Gothic Lolita fashion style, or the way in which we intend to portray ourselves.

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]So what that all essentially boils down to, and believe me it takes SOME boiling...

...is that you're completely wrong about lolita being provocative but it'd be terribly sad and embarrassing for you to admit it. Got it. And by the way sarcasm apparently runs right over you like oil over a fat woman because the only one doing any assuming here is apparently you. By drowning us in text so we can overlook the part where you have to talk yourself into a position of not feeling like you're wrong.[/font][/color][/quote]
[color=#9933ff]It's really starting to bother me that you're assuming things about how I'm posting and my "real" intention behind what I'm saying. I don't play games like that and I never have. What you see is what I mean.

The point is, the definition of Gothic Lolita fashion as a conscious attempt at provocative (as in "sexy/erotic") fashion is incorrect. What I am trying to do is correct the erroneous assumption of such. Here, I don't care about who, personally, is right or wrong, or who "wins" or "loses" in this thread. I do care about helping people understand the fashion in the way it was meant to be viewed.

I'm sorry my post was "tl;dr"-ish for your taste, but I usually write that way (see other posts on OB for evidence). Hell, I usually talk that way. I'm not trying to BS anything. @_@;;;[/color]

[quote name='Raiha'][COLOR="DarkOrchid"][FONT="Times New Roman"]Because a live journal community is so much more reliable than wikipedia. And the ridiculously short skirts that you would've been caned for wearing in Victorian England are completely innocent. [/FONT][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff]?? That's kind of the point, isn't it? When you're talking to people who adhere to the Gothic Lolita fashion, and who discuss it as a community, aren't you going to get more correct and more informative answers? I mean, it's not like Gothic Lolita is a scholarly topic that you can look in a published encyclopedia about, so of course internet resources are a "must" if you want to learn about it. Just because it's the internet doesn't make it invalid. lol.

Fact: most lolita skirts are knee-length. Opinion: You think this is ridiculously short. I happen to think it's modest. Difference of opinion, s'all.

Gothic Lolita is also, as I said, LOOSELY based on Victorian fashion. Very loosely. If we were following it to a T, we'd call it "Historical dress reconstruction" not "Gothic Lolita." It happens. *shrug*

(I'm also out for the night so I'll have to respond later today or Monday. Peace.)[/color]

[Allamorph]

[FONT=Arial]True, but then again, intent and reality are often two different items.

All I'm sayin' is that if your wardrobe is causing arousal, whether or not that's what you were intending is quite irrelevant. And if a large percentage of people are so moved by the style, I think it's safe to say that it's provocative, no?

In wardrobe stuff like this, you have to be able to think from both your angle and the mind of anyone who might see it, so you don't accidentally draw . . . unwanted attentions.[/FONT]

[Shy]

[size=1]When I read the name 'Lolita' I think of the objectification of young women, and a loss of innocence... but when Japanese people see the name they probably think it sounds 'kawaii' and put it on their backpacks. That's the Japanese for you.

The Gothic Lolita thing seems to be a fashion movement that has (to say the least) some strong hints of fetish in it. I'm not saying that the clothes themselves are innapropriate, but all fashion needs to be viewed in a cultural context, as opposed to a vacuum. One of my best friends used to pin a 'cat tail' to her pants to be playful, but when she posted pics of herself with the tail online she suddenly received a lot of unwanted advances from 'furries.'

Needless to say, she still loves cats, but was quick to take those photos down.

-Shy[/size]

[James]

[quote]When I read the name 'Lolita' I think of the objectification of young women, and a loss of innocence... but when Japanese people see the name they probably think it sounds 'kawaii' and put it on their backpacks. That's the Japanese for you.[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Maybe young girls do, but I think you'll find that the Japanese spin is generally decidedly sexual.

This is true even if you look generally at anime and anime-based character design. Just look at the cosplay events in Japan, where photographers often want to see high skirt lines and provocative poses.

Although I don't know much about "Elegant Gothic Lolita" fashion, I would definitely say that there's an underlying sexual element to it. This is no doubt not true for 99% of the actual girls who particpate in the fashion - I do think, however, that the whole genesis of it (particularly in Japan) bears some relationship with Japanese sexualization of almost everything - especially fashion and entertainment.

In all honesty, even the most benign female character designs in anime regularly have sexual undertones. It might be skin-tight clothing or ridiculously high skirts...but I think it's pretty clear that the Japanese incorporate sex and sexual overtones in even the most innocent of entertainment mediums.

So yes, Shy, you are right I think.

As I said, this doesn't mean that the average American who is involved in this type of fashion views it as sexual for themselves - viewing it as overtly sexual is missing the point. The point is that there's an obvious sexual undertone, which, as Shy pointed out, should be seen in a cultural context.

When you view it in a Japanese cultural context, that makes even more sense.[/font]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR="Indigo"][quote name='MistressRoxie'][color=#9933ff]Indifference: As I said to Raiha, I have seen the movie, and I was well aware of the Nobokovian definition of "lolita" long before I knew about the Japanese fashion. Please see above paragraphs, etc., etc. Sometimes a word can mean two different things, and in that case it's generally confusing to which one is which. This is one of those times, lol.[/color][/QUOTE]You've missed my point it seems. You can't go and have a style of fashion as it were and expect people to not associate it with the fact that the name "Lolita" has entered pop culture to describe a sexually precocious young girl. For half a century that term has come to mean just that. So anyone who thinks they can just say[I] oh it's not about that at all...[/I] is forgetting that no matter what they say, others will see it in that light. Especially since there are just as many sites where one can buy clothing in that style that[I] is [/I]for pornographic usage. Something that naturally I will not link to here on account of the content.

The point is that the meaning for Lolita came about [I]before[/I] the attempt to turn it into a more legitimate style of fashion. And that's an association that isn't going to just go away by hearing others claims or reading sites like wiki on it. Almost everyone I know hears the word Lolita and they don't think [I]oh its that newer fashion[/I], they think, oh... [I] porn[/I]. It's going to take more than a few decades for that association to change if it does at all.

After all... choice of words and associations to said words is important, so you have to wonder what the person who started it was thinking when they chose to use the name Lolita. I see the association as a self inflicted problem really.[/COLOR]