Does anyone here study true alchemy?

[Semjaza]

Calling this the predecessor to chemisty is a misnomer. It's a combination of so many things that the comparison is meaningless. Chemistry has nothing to do with religion, astrology or mysticism. Surely it led into accepted chemistry of today, but it's practically before science as well. There's no reason to really claim you're able to utilize it because the goals of it are impossible. If you just want to study it for interest or enjoyment then be my guest.

If you want to do chemistry, then do chemisty... why would you try to rely on a "science" whose [b]main goals[/b] are transforming regular metals into gold or silver or inventing a panacea (basically a cure for everything that lets you live forever). I mean seriously, those are the two main goals of alchemists and anything decent and objective written about it would tell you that straight out. Where are these things? Oh right, no one has ever done either of them. Silly me.

The other goal of alchemy was to create human life. Something tells me that people trying to clone humans right now are not using alchemy.

The very idea of all of this requires a freaking [b]magic[/b] item in the first place. How anyone here would have or even know the location of a mythical thing like the Philisopher's Stone is beyond me.

Like I said, have fun with it all you want, but don't pretend you can actually do anything alchemists have been trying to do for countless centuries.

Modern alchemy is far different from what I've described above. If you want to buy into that stuff then whatever (the goals and requirements are thought of things within yourself in that case). I'm just speaking against the whole magical idea given by some in here lol.

[Lord Dante]

I bear the answer to all questions, no matter how deep, scientific or philosophical.

the answer to this question is simply: [B]WHO CARES??[/B]



There, I said it!! :D

[Roxie Faye]

[quote=Generic NPC #3]The very idea of all of this requires a freaking [b]magic[/b] item in the first place. How anyone here would have or even know the location of a mythical thing like the Philisopher's Stone is beyond me.

Like I said, have fun with it all you want, but don't pretend you can actually do anything alchemists have been trying to do for countless centuries.

Modern alchemy is far different from what I've described above. If you want to buy into that stuff then whatever (the goals and requirements are thought of things within yourself in that case). I'm just speaking against the whole magical idea given by some in here lol.[/quote]
[color=#9933ff]When you said magic item, I laughed. It just reminded me of talismans, because I was talking with someone about them yesterday. *grins* The Philosopher's stone, though, is purely a myth. The only person even rumored to find it was Nicolas Flamel, although the evidence against him is stacked pretty high.

Mmm.... I don't actually think that any alchemist thinks they can live forever; I do believe that everyone realizes that's quite rediculous. In chemistry, biology, and biochemistry/ bichemical engineering, we haven't even figured out how everything our body works. We decoded all of the letters in DNA are, but we don't even know what half the stuff is, and I don't think anyone is crazy enough to think that alchemy can change that. You have to know what you're doing. :/ As for lead into gold? *laughs* We've already done that. And it's stupid to try and make mass amounts of gold anyway; the value would depreciate.

Who was preaching magic? Am I missing something? The only people even [b]using[/b] the word "magic" are the ones condemning it; I have yet to see [i]one[/i] person who was truly interested in alchemy that clearly said "OH YES, TURNING LEAD INTO GOLD IS 100% POSSIBLE, AND SO IS LIVING FOREVER!" I think you're misreading things - not one person has said that.

Lord Dante: I grin at your post. Some people care. It's obvious that you do not, and that's fine with me. *shrugs and laughs* ^_^


One last thing because I thought it was amusing: Here's something comical my friend suggested (other than particle accelerators and nuclear fission): "Why don't we take radioactive Uranium, wait until it gets to it's half life, and stop it at gold, before it reaches carbon. There - we've done alchemy and made gold!" He was kidding of course, but I found it funny. (The joke is, that, radioactive Uranium looses protons like crazy when it reaches it's half-life, and eventually turns into carbon. If we could keep 79 there, we'd have gold. What - no one thinks that's amusing? Ah, well, you had to be there. ~_~)

P.S.: kenshi112: Thank you. ^^; I don't think anyone here is a dumbass; they are simply non-believers, and/or skeptics. Oh yes, because everything we can't see [i]must[/i] be false. Everything out of the ordinary [i]must[/i] be false. The wind is false because we can't see it, and so is haley's comet, because that's out of the ordinary!!! *rolls eyes* [/color]

[Sara]

[color=#6699ff]The element Phosphorus was discovered by an alchemist. He was hoping to find/create a "Philosopher's Stone," and believed he had done it.

Do you want to know what he was doing?

[spoiler]Boiling urine. Boiling over 60 gallons of urine until a few grams of... stuff... remained. Romantic.[/spoiler]

[i]Oh[/i] yeah, sounds like the job for me. :)[/color]

[Semjaza]

Roxie: I think you're misunderstanding some things I meant here. The idea that anyone can practice "true" alchemy quite simply relies on the ideas of magic in the first place. The idea that someone in here knows the "secrets" that he will only tell you through PM obviously relies on something of questionable descent in the first place. The idea of "things we can't see" relates to magic or religion or mysticism in some way as well. How can it not? I might as well say that about magic itself or random goddesses.

Obviously the Philosopher's Stone is a myth and I heavily implied that. The idea that anyone would even consider its existance at this point in time is ludicrous. The truth remains, however, that this was something Alchemists were heavily concerned with. So were the ideas of eternal life, universal cures and "playing god" in general. If modern "alchemists" don't believe in such things, why even call themselves alchemists? There's the term "archemy" for a reason.

If someone wants to have any sort of conversation about this stuff, you can't simply just be like "well, everyone knows that's not possible!!!" simply because that's what alchemy was meant to do to begin with. I don't know how the history of this stuff can just be completely dismissed like that. The methods in which alchemists wanted to create things like gold or mutate other elements is extremely different from the methods that can be used today with particle accelerators or whatever else. Considering that, I'm not even sure why people still even equate this stuff with anything scientific. The fact that someone like Seaborg transformed lead into gold doesn't make his methods fit into "alchemy". Same goal, different methods; there's a difference between accomplishing what alchemy originally set out to do and accomplishing it with alchemic processes... no one has yet to do the latter. I don't see why they should be directly associated.

[Roxie Faye]

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']Roxie: I think you're misunderstanding some things I meant here. The idea that anyone can practice "true" alchemy quite simply relies on the ideas of magic in the first place. The idea that someone in here knows the "secrets" that he will only tell you through PM obviously relies on something of questionable descent in the first place. The idea of "things we can't see" relates to magic or religion or mysticism in some way as well. How can it not? I might as well say that about magic itself or random goddesses.[/quote]
[color=#9933ff]*smacks forehead with hand* You know? This is entirely my fault. I antagonized someone else about this, and then it comes back right at me - I have only myself to blame. ~_~ *smacks self again*

"Alchemy is an early protoscientific practice combining elements of chemistry, physics, astrology, art, semiotics, metallurgy, medicine, mysticism, and religion" (en.wikipedia.org/wiki/alchemy). There. =D

Also, I know I'm not going to change anything you believe in by pointing this out, as you are someone who refuses to believe in anything you can't see (I wonder what would happen if you were blind...), but I'm just going to say it anyway. JUST BECAUSE YOU CAN'T SEE SOMETHING DOESN'T MEAN IT'S THERE. Like I said, you can't see the wind, but who says it's not there? You can't see much of the rest of the planets in the solar system, even with a telescope - maybe it's just something your eyes are tricking you with, and all those NASA photos are fake, too! =D But, like I said, it's unlikely I'm going to change your opinion on this because you don't believe in anything you can't see.

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']Obviously the Philosopher's Stone is a myth and I heavily implied that. The idea that anyone would even consider its existance at this point in time is ludicrous. The truth remains, however, that this was something Alchemists were heavily concerned with. So were the ideas of eternal life, universal cures and "playing god" in general. If modern "alchemists" don't believe in such things, why even call themselves alchemists? There's the term "archemy" for a reason.[/quote]
Alchemy's "goals" are gold, panacea, and eternal life, but that's not just it. Many alchemists state that the real goal is not something practical or directly usable, but is basically the study of everything as a form of meditation, like a method to discover himself; which is where the philosophical part of Alchemy comes in. [/color]

[Rick Hunter]

It's amazing how everyone in this topic is arguing over a simple question here. Does anyone here study alchemy shouldn't be turned into such a war. It's such a straight forward question some of you guys should be ashamed for making such a federal case out of this.

As for my take on the subject, I have had the pleasure of researching the history behind Alchemy. For the most part the reason why people read or study alchemy today is not for the quest of turning something like Urine into gold or on an never ending quest to gain enternal youth. (No one btw meantioned this so far) It's basically to study it to see how modern chemistry and physics derived from the Alchemist of the Late 1800's.

The history behind Alchemy is somewhat interesting, and in ways at times it did resemble an occult. People also failed to realize that Alchemy wasn't fully a science to some it was sort of like a religion because of their beliefs. So without going any futher off tagent I'm going to answer what the topic clearly asked.

Yes I have study "true" Alchemy should of been history of alchemy. Do I believe I can turn lead into gold no? Do I believe in most of the beliefs taught by Alchemist no? Do I find their theories interesting yes.

How hard was that people?

[Lord Dante]

[QUOTE]Lord Dante: I grin at your post. Some people care. It's obvious that you do not, and that's fine with me. *shrugs and laughs* ^_^[/QUOTE]

I never said that I didn't care. I merely stated the ultimate answer to any question, no matter how philosophical, deep, or difficult. That's all.

anyway, I have nothing more to add at this present time your honor.

[Shinichi Kudou]

I've looked into a few times, but never considered seriously studying it.

[Doukeshi]

[SIZE=1][QUOTE=Rick Hunter]It's amazing how everyone in this topic is arguing over a simple question here. Does anyone here study alchemy shouldn't be turned into such a war. It's such a straight forward question some of you guys should be ashamed for making such a federal case out of this.
[/QUOTE]

Ashamed? Why would we be ashamed. Arguments/debates like this are what make life interesting and it wouldn't be as fun if it were a simple yes/no sort of conversation ^_~.

Anyways, studying the history of alchemy and practicing "true" alchemy are completely different things. It would be like, say, researching into the practices of voodoo cultists over actually studying them and practicing them yourself.

Generic NPC #3 nailed it on the head.[/SIZE]

[Sapphire Flare]

Hey, alchemy would be fun and if someone really put their mind to it (like the reincarnation of albert einstien) then I'm sure they could find a way for it to work. Somehow. Although, they probably wouldn't use circles of paint or marker.

The philosopher's stone, A.K.A. the Panacea might exist... somewhere... I mean there are endless combinations and different undiscovered cures so... you can't really say that anything ISN'T real just yet. Hell maybe some big purple thing does live in a lake in ireland. (refering to Nessie the big purple dinosaur)

[Shadetaro]

I heard about a case where lead was actually turned into gold, but not my alchemy. There was a Russian nuclear reactor in a power plant that had a lead core. When they decomissioned it, they found a layer of gold inside. Obviously, the gold was radioactive and deteriorated back into lead, but hey, it's a start.

From everything I've read, heard, etc. Alchemy is much more than just getting gold. That's what all the real kooks went after.

[MangaFan007]

I do not even know why I wasted my time reading this thread.

Foolish humans: YOU have dabbled into the science of transforming one element into another one before. Mere examples of this are the atomic bombs that were launched in Hiroshima and Nagasaki, or that nuclar reactor that gives us power. It is called nuclear physics, humans, and radiation is your Phylosopher's Stone. If you wish to transform any element into another one you just need to change the number of protons in its nucleus. You do not need any magic, you just need a controlled nuclear reaction.

[kenshinsbabe]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]MangaFan007[/B]

Foolish humans: YOU have dabbled into the science of transforming one element into another one before.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]Foolish humans? And what are you, some god?

But that's not the point. All that nuclear bomb stuff was done in a lab. Knowing alchemy is like being a walking nuclear reaction. It's having the power of a nuclear reaction at your fingertips.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[MangaFan007]

[QUOTE=kenshinsbabe][SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]Foolish humans? And what are you, some god?

But that's not the point. All that nuclear bomb stuff was done in a lab. Knowing alchemy is like being a walking nuclear reaction. It's having the power of a nuclear reaction at your fingertips.[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

私　は　人間　です。
( わたし　は　にんげん 　です。 )
I am human, and as a human, I possess the foolishness of the specie. The power of a nuclear reaction is indeed in your fingertips (check the theory of relativity and quantum physics for this).

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE=kenshinsbabe][SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]Foolish humans? And what are you, some god?

But that's not the point. All that nuclear bomb stuff was done in a lab. Knowing alchemy is like being a walking nuclear reaction. It's having the power of a nuclear reaction at your fingertips.[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Well the degeneration of one radioisotope to another is fairly testable, predictable, and dangerous. I mean... how does Alchemy work mechanistically? What exactly do you do to "transmute" metals?? Obviously the power to have a nuclear reaction at your fingertips would be quite a painful power indeed, especially considering extensive work in nuclear chemistry could easily increase your chances of acquiring genetic deficiencies and cancer. Unless Alchemists just wear lead suits and I've been in the dark the whole time.

So tell me, how exactly would one perform alchemy?
[QUOTE=MangaFan007]私　は　人間　です。
( わたし　は　にんげん 　です。 )
I am human, and as a human, I possess the foolishness of the specie. The power of a nuclear reaction is indeed in your fingertips (check the theory of relativity and quantum physics for this).[/QUOTE]

I gotta love the effort, but someone here is trying to [i]sound[/i] intelligent. Unfortunately, anyone reasonably trained in even basic chemistry and physics have to smile at your parenthetical claim. The theory of relativity has almost [b]nothing[/b] to do with nuclear chemistry; or thermonuclear reactions for that matter. The theory of relativity, specifically "special relativity" (In reference to the published works of Einstein in 1905) deals with the postulate that the speed of light is constant in a vacuum to every observer. This also carries with it, the idea that the Laws of Physics are the same for all observers. Quantum physics also has pretty much nothing to do with the claim "The power of a nuclear reaction is indeed in your fingertips". Quantum physics refers to electrochemistry and the movement of electrons. It also has a great deal to do with energy diagrams and energy potential of various atoms. This information is usually quantitative based upon wave mechanics and photochemistry because of the nature of wavelengths and light. I?m being incredibly brief on both theories, and leaving out several key bits of information. However, I?m trying to generalize these in order to reveal how grossly MangaFan007 misunderstands actual science.

[MangaFan007]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
I gotta love the effort, but someone here is trying to [i]sound[/i] intelligent. Unfortunately, anyone reasonably trained in even basic chemistry and physics have to smile at your parenthetical claim. The theory of relativity has almost [b]nothing[/b] to do with nuclear chemistry; or thermonuclear reactions for that matter. The theory of relativity, specifically "special relativity" (In reference to the published works of Einstein in 1905) deals with the postulate that the speed of light is constant in a vacuum to every observer. This also carries with it, the idea that the Laws of Physics are the same for all observers. Quantum physics also has pretty much nothing to do with the claim "The power of a nuclear reaction is indeed in your fingertips". Quantum physics refers to electrochemistry and the movement of electrons. It also has a great deal to do with energy diagrams and energy potential of various atoms. This information is usually quantitative based upon wave mechanics and photochemistry because of the nature of wavelengths and light. I?m being incredibly brief on both theories, and leaving out several key bits of information. However, I?m trying to generalize these in order to reveal how grossly MangaFan007 misunderstands actual science.[/QUOTE]

I probably should not do this, however here goes my rebutal:

-The theory of relativity (specifically, special relativity) dictates the total amount of energy contained by matter. I am sure you are familiar with the formula E=mc^2. This is how much energy you can actually obtain from any mass.
-Radiation is nothing more than a beam of charged particles (except gamma radiation). Just like you said, quantum mechanics deals with the behavior of charged particles in a potential. If you are to control then a beam of particles, you must then need quantum mechanics to predict (or better yet, estimate) the effect of a magnetic/electric field in contolled radiation.
-The expression "is at your fingertips" is a metaphor meaning it can be done by any human who has enough knowledge of the subject. Misunderstanding is the reason I do not write much, every time I use my style to write something, nothing comes out of it but confusion.

If you want me to, I can keep on rambling about Schrödinger's Equation and the effects of gravitational fields in radiation (general releativity), but it will be a waste of both our time and it will also be unpleasant for the others. I will admit though, that my expression was very generic, and thus it might have caused confusion.

In any case, cheers,
MF007

[Guest Evil_Inuyasha05]

people back in the olden days studyed alchemy but just like witch craft it was shunned but if u want to try it go right ahead but there r not many people who try anymore. :demon:

[Al-araaf]

Belive me I have tried to study alchemy. And I would have continued if #1 I could get the ores I would need like mercury and things like that. #2 I would still be trying to do the kind in Full Metel Alchemist but that involves magic (I know better than to mess with magic not because of religous reasons but for my safety since im inexpirenced I fear if I mess up a single detail I could end up dead) but I do find it very interesting and feel if you want to study it or practice it go ahead no one has the right to stop you.

[Brasil]

This thread should have died after Generic NPC #3 posted on page two, because he summed up the precise reasons why Alchemy is completely absurd.

I mean, let's face it. The basic ideas behind the entire concept aren't related to science at all, nor are the methods. It's all pseudo-mysticism and B.S. "magick." The heavy emphasis on magical transmutations of metals should already tip people off that it's nothing but a lame joke.

So why study it? Oh, to be different (or rather, think you're different)? Because some lame anime features it?

It hurts my brain to imagine how gullible some people would have to be. lol

[MangaFan007]

[quote name='Al-araaf']Belive me I have tried to study alchemy. And I would have continued if #1 I could get the ores I would need like mercury and things like that. #2 I would still be trying to do the kind in Full Metel Alchemist but that involves magic (I know better than to mess with magic not because of religous reasons but for my safety since im inexpirenced I fear if I mess up a single detail I could end up dead) but I do find it very interesting and feel if you want to study it or practice it go ahead no one has the right to stop you.[/quote]

Then [somebody] do the following for me one day:

-Pick an element, sample it, and chemically test the properties it has.
-Alchemise one sample into another element
-Sample this new element and test its properties chemically to prove that it is indeed another element

Once you [somebody] have done that, videotaped it, and release over a public domain, I will believe that alchemy is doable, that Faustus was taken by the devil and that modern science is all a big hoax that people invest millions in investigating new materials to replace the rare/expensive ones when it all can be done using alchemy.

One more thing: I agree with Brazil: This thread should have died long ago.

[DarcOverlord]

just saying but its impossible to turn lead into gold because an element cant be changed into another element because atoms never change they just form different groups to make different compounds

[Delta]

[color=#656448][SIZE=1][QUOTE=MangaFan007]Then [somebody] do the following for me one day:

-Pick an element, sample it, and chemically test the properties it has.
-Alchemise one sample into another element
-Sample this new element and test its properties chemically to prove that it is indeed another element[/QUOTE]...Radioactive decay, amirite? 232U -> 228Th -> 224Ra -> 220Rn ->etc. happens naturally, that's why we have radioisotope dating. No need for alchemists! ^^

As for the thread title: nope, I haven't come across anyone who studies "true alchemy" yet (it's probably because they're all hush-hush about it, as Tyler Koregaten said) but give me a book on alchemy and I'll read it. Wouldn't hurt to study about these things, yeah?[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Tyler Koregaten]

[quote name='Delta][COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][size=1]As for the thread title: nope, I haven't come across anyone who studies "true alchemy" yet (it's probably because they're all hush-hush about it, as Tyler Koregaten said) but give me a book on alchemy and I'll read it. Wouldn't hurt to study about these things, yeah?[/SIZE'][/COLOR][/quote]

It is true that most alchemists, myself included, don't wish to reveal that fact to others, eother because their teacher forbade it or for personal reasons. I myself don't mind sharing it with others. Every time I speak of alchemy, I see my instructor,
Shaman Quusad. I hear his voice telling me what the transmutation requires and that nature must be respected to achieve anything. Then I see him perform that transmutation, the first I saw. It appeared impossible to me. But now, it's simple, a simple reconstruction. Taking ash and transmuting it to a small bowl. The circle was a mere circle with a square inside of it.

Anyways, I believe many alchemists feel we're a minority group, and we are. There
are only about 10,000 alchemists worldwide today. Others cannot speak of their practices, for those of us who do belong to a military have no records. We do not exist. It is so, because those who threaten them, or us, cannot find us. Can you imagine what it's like to have no true identity? To die and not have a grave? It sounds horrible, but it's our job. Yet, we are alive. You can't even be sure I'm really who say I am. For all you know, the name "Teiler Johannes Niels Jääfren Köregäten"
could very well be a name given to me as a temporary identity. But, there's hope.
I could very well be who I said. That's where trust comes in. You can choose to trust me, a military alchemist with no traceable background, or you can't trust me.
Either way, I belong here, in a way. You know, if you read the Hurricane Katrina thread, my brother died during the hurricane. But, they couldn't count him as a fatality because he was related to me. They couldn't add him to the list. It's sad.
Yet, we've chosen this lifestyle, just like you've all chose yours. And we have to live with our choices.



More sincerely than ever,
Teiler Johannes Niels Jääfren Köregäten

[Sandy]

Tyler Koregaten: please go away!

People aren't stupid, you know? Do you honestly think we buy your Full-Metal-Alchemist-come-true -lifestory? I'm just waiting the moment when you reveal that your late brother actually lives inside a metal armor now, and that you gave up your arm and your leg for it to happen!

Please, come back to reality, or seek help! (Or just stop trolling this forum.)

Sure, alchemy is an interesting science, if not anything else, but it's a thing of the past now. It has no basis in real life, it's superstitious! No government in the civilized western world hires "State Alchemists" (a term taken directly from Full Metal Alchemist, btw)!

Geez, what would the scriptwriters of FMA think if they heard there was a guy posing as their created character... XP