Debates

[Anti]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by \¤~NoodleZ~¤/ [/i]
[B][b][color=darkred] I am just scared that maybe one of our allies for example pakistan or saudi arabia might turn on us.[/b][/color] [/B][/QUOTE]

Well IMHO it really wouldn't surprise me if one of them did...esspecially with this whole religous holiday thing...at this rate i wouldn't be surprised if we insult one of them really badly and they turn against us...Let's just pray it's not Saudi Arabia....if it is count on a Jihad...because a Jihad won't come from a place like afganistan...it would come from Saudi Arabi...this is because the capital of their religon is in Saudi Arabi...and the other thing is that Saudi Arabi has Nukes...and that would be very very bad...

[Sui Generis]

Yes, I too am alittle worried. If they turn on us I think it will turn into WW3, yet I feel relatively safe. We have the main powers allied with us on strong relationships, main example is ENGLAND. And the rest of United Kingdom. I feel that we are relatively safe. But yes if Saudi Arabia betrays us, I feel there will be heavy American casualties, not just here, but everyone living in the MIddle East..

[Justin]

From certain angles the US got what was coming to it. I don't think the acts are by any means justified and I hold quite a grudge against terrorism because my baby cousin's life was claimed in the event. But, the irony in this is, when we killed Bin Laden's right-hand-man in a bombing we celebrated. And all that was heard about was his death. There is no telling how many others died in the bombing. How many innocents, I mean. The Taliban is purposely putting military establishments near civilian facilities to make the US look like terrorists themselves. We are bound to have killed quite a few civilians by now with the Taliban doing this. I also consider that an act of terrorism. Except, the act is commited against the Taliban's own people. This shows either stupidity on the Taliban's part or just that, they don't give a damn...

-Justin

[k9*]

i have the feeling that they won't turn on us, becuz if it happened in America, it can happen anywhere. Besides the pres was considering back off on the hostilities for ramadan(sorry bout sp), but the northern alliance uped the pace.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoGod of Death [/i]
[B]

I do respect your opinions, and agree with almost all of 'em. But I think it is not our fault that we are not as involved in the world than we used to be.. When we were involved in the world countries told us to butt out, and so now that we did what they said they are jealouse, and are trying to think of reasons to make us horrible! (that does not go for every nation, and this is ment in no offense!) I think people like Sudam Hussain and Osams bin Laden have just used HUGE propaganda and have made us look like slave drives. And yet in some reasons we are. In some countries we do still have "SWEAT HOUSES", and there are not as many as there used to be. Personally I think America as a nation has been cleaning up their act when it comes to foreign relations, and I think Osama attacked us, for two reasons. 1, hoping we would strike out without any knowledge making us worse to the Middle East, and 2 for the religiouse war he has called on. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson][size=1]Well, as a non-US citizen, I think that I am in a good position to comment on how a lot of people feel about America (at least, in the Asian region).

The actions taken against the USA are motivated by America's involvement in the Gulf War, whereby American troops were stationed in the Middle Easte -- in the "holy land". This was a direct insult to Osama bin Laden (who felt strongly that "infidels" shouldn't stand on that soil).

This is why he's attacking America. He will refer to the Israel/Palestine conflict and such...but that really has nothing to do with it. He is against the United States for religious/political reasons. Stupid reasons.

The USA has been a double edged sword in the past. In many cases, it has been perceived as butting in where it's not welcome...and in other cases, it hasn't taken responsibility for its actions (either direct or indirect actions).

Also, it's fair to say that for the most part...the USA doesn't act on an international situation unless it's interests are at stake.

One of the main reasons the US was involved in the Gulf War was to protect its precious Middle Eastern oil supplies -- but of course, the US Government won't tell you that.

When the Indonesian military supplied weapons to the militia in East Timor...to begin killing people by the hundred, Australia was the first country to do anything about it. The Australian Government informed the UN about the situation and stated its intention of moving into the area to protect the East Timor people.

Our Government had to literally drag the USA kicking and screaming to do anything about it...the US Government just wasn't intersted. It "wasn't their problem", but due to their treaty with us...they were obligated to do something.

We could easily have said the same about East Timor..."it's not our problem". But we recognized that if we didn't help...nobody would.

I have heard various American politicians saying that once the war against Al-Qaida and the Taliban is over...the US will have "no reason to stay in Afghanistan".

This is a terrible thing to say, because the US is quite prepared to change everyone's lives for its own gain...yet is not prepared to pick up the pieces afterwards.

You can't be a leader of the free world unless you stay true to your responsibility.

My point is, the US Government has to stay there once the Taliban are totally gone...and they have to make sure that they help the Afghan people to rebuild their country.

If they did this, it would give nobody a reason to be against them. Unfortunately, in the past...the US has provided ample reason to be opposed to them.

But having said all of that...I'm dealing with it very lightly. Being an Australian, my country has always been allied with the USA...and we have always assisted the USA in every major war (including the current war).

So I'm in no way justifying the terrorist actions (as they aren't justifiable)...I'm just saying that it's important to understand where the anti-Americanism comes from...so that it can be reversed.[/color][/size]

[Queen Asuka]

I think what happened on Sept 11th is CRAP. They ruined my best friend Anna's birthday, and that was not fair. (not like they was thinking about her anyway, but whatever!) And I'm scared about WW3, but maybe all will work out. The US kicks butt. And everyone is really united. So yeah! Wish we still had people like Patrick Henry around though, he'd know what to tell EVERYONE. He was my favorite orator.

[Anti]

James thank you for your comment.....I as an American have every right as a person of my "free" country to bash on it...But it is interesting to here people of other country's view on how the leader of this country control the nation...It makes me feel somewhat saddened to think that the U.S. is knowen only to keep it's interest...but then i remember how most the people are in the U.S...most of them truely don't give a flip about the rest of the world unless it interferes with their interest...All I ask is that you don't judge all of us as the majority acts...Some of us do care about how the world or parts of the world are...That is one reason i like boards like this because i get to talk with and express my opinion to other people from all over the world...

[9mm Avenger]

Sept 11th? it was sad. Mind u, it came as a brig suprise when i heard. i thought i had played to many counter-terrorist games! whatever, Bin Laden is gonna be dead soon.

[Sui Generis]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]

[color=crimson][size=1]Well, as a non-US citizen, I think that I am in a good position to comment on how a lot of people feel about America (at least, in the Asian region).

The actions taken against the USA are motivated by America's involvement in the Gulf War, whereby American troops were stationed in the Middle Easte -- in the "holy land". This was a direct insult to Osama bin Laden (who felt strongly that "infidels" shouldn't stand on that soil).

This is why he's attacking America. He will refer to the Israel/Palestine conflict and such...but that really has nothing to do with it. He is against the United States for religious/political reasons. Stupid reasons.

The USA has been a double edged sword in the past. In many cases, it has been perceived as butting in where it's not welcome...and in other cases, it hasn't taken responsibility for its actions (either direct or indirect actions).

Also, it's fair to say that for the most part...the USA doesn't act on an international situation unless it's interests are at stake.

One of the main reasons the US was involved in the Gulf War was to protect its precious Middle Eastern oil supplies -- but of course, the US Government won't tell you that.

When the Indonesian military supplied weapons to the militia in East Timor...to begin killing people by the hundred, Australia was the first country to do anything about it. The Australian Government informed the UN about the situation and stated its intention of moving into the area to protect the East Timor people.

Our Government had to literally drag the USA kicking and screaming to do anything about it...the US Government just wasn't intersted. It "wasn't their problem", but due to their treaty with us...they were obligated to do something.

We could easily have said the same about East Timor..."it's not our problem". But we recognized that if we didn't help...nobody would.

I have heard various American politicians saying that once the war against Al-Qaida and the Taliban is over...the US will have "no reason to stay in Afghanistan".

This is a terrible thing to say, because the US is quite prepared to change everyone's lives for its own gain...yet is not prepared to pick up the pieces afterwards.

You can't be a leader of the free world unless you stay true to your responsibility.

My point is, the US Government has to stay there once the Taliban are totally gone...and they have to make sure that they help the Afghan people to rebuild their country.

If they did this, it would give nobody a reason to be against them. Unfortunately, in the past...the US has provided ample reason to be opposed to them.

But having said all of that...I'm dealing with it very lightly. Being an Australian, my country has always been allied with the USA...and we have always assisted the USA in every major war (including the current war).

So I'm in no way justifying the terrorist actions (as they aren't justifiable)...I'm just saying that it's important to understand where the anti-Americanism comes from...so that it can be reversed.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]

I agree with you almost 100%. Even as an American citizen (well not really just a kid:rolleyes: ) I think that we should be more involved with the world. I mean we say we are the re-models of the future, yet we sit one our as*es and watch countries go to war, and say nothing about it. I have heard although that the US plans to help the Northern Alliance of whoever has control of Afghanistan to establish a government. However I thikn they will just try to force our style onto them thinking its the only way. I do not plan to bash my country very much, but in this aspect of our politics, it deserves (almost) every bash it gets. And a prime example of us just leaving a country by to hand out and dry is the Vietnam war, we just got up and left the south when they needed us the most. I am personally embarressed about the whole war. I think sometimes our polititcions are just to scared to face the public so they do what the public says. And sometimes, most times, the public doesn't know what they are talking about. Including me. But I hope and I have a feeling that George W. Bush will be alittle bit different with this whole thing. But if he doesn't I will honostly be amazed at how many true allies we will have. Personally I think (I may be wrong) that if we don't get our act together, we may lose allies. I mean at some point the UK or Australia will get tired of having to pull us into stuff, as though we were 7 year olds getting shots. Its ridiculouse, and being a resident in the USA I hope we get our act together, before it becomes to embarresing......

Thank you, that is my bashing my county for the day! :D

Oh and yes I agree with James, our country half the time only cares about itself...

[~Videl~]

Anti- I have to agree with you that there is a strong anit-amercian feeling here on the european side of the atlantic that was building here long before sept 11th. A lot of people do see Americans as greedy and self serving, but this is not my oppinion or that of all europeans, I have friends and family in the states and i know what warm and friendly people Americans are. This perception of americans is due I feel in most part to bad foreign policy decisions and complacency within a country too content to rest on the laurels of past military victories and percieved strength.

Duo- How can we (america and britain etc....) justify supporting the northern alliance when 20 years ago we drove them out of afghanistan to hand power to the taliban, although you are right that we should help to establish a new government here - after all we have done to these poor people it's the least we can do.
You are also right that te USA may soon loose allies. I know that britain and other countries would be very reluctant to support a military push into other countries such as Iraq. Appart from anything else, if Iraq does have nukes and bio weapons, you in america are too far away and would be safe, but here in europe we would be in reach of whatever they cared to throw at us. I wish our politicians would consider this before actingly so rashly to plunge us into another new war.

[Anti]

Videl there is one flaw about your statement.....we in America arn't to far away....IBM's make us just as vunerable to nukes....Although you are right in the part that those of you in Europe would catch a lot more then Americans because of the Atlantic...

[~Videl~]

I knew Iraq had IBM's but I though they were only mid range, reaching just about far enough to toast france....as far as i know they don't have trans-atlantic capabilities....but then I may be wrong.:)

[k9*]

hey ~videl~, if anyone set off a nuke to harm any country, all other countries would be affected, whether directly or indirectly. as for the war pushing into any other country, i don't believe that the american leaders would recieve support from the people, let alone any other country. i also agree that we need to set up a new gov., but isn't that the point of the talks in....um....Berlin.

on a side note, has any1 else seen the book [U]BECAUSE WE ARE AMERICANS[/U], i highly recommend it (tho i haven't finished it yet). it is a touching collection from the web of postings about 9/11. i keep having to stop bcuz i always end up :bawl: :bawl:

[Wild Freedom]

its a real nice subject,it really is, but if you really dont want to get shut down go to games and stories. Sorry but if I was a mod I would close it.

[Anna]

Why should it be moved? It's not a game or story.......??
Anyway, I guess I'll post my opinion.
America *is* like a double-edged sword; good right alongside the bad. I can see very clearly why a lot of countries would not like us. For the most part we are a collective bunch of spoiled children running around. Really, we have sooooo much when millions of others pale in comparison. Shoot, if I lived over in Afghanistan I'd hate America, too! All this said, it's still no excuse to friggin terrorize and kill people. I can't stand my neighbor, but does that give me ANY RIGHT to go over to their yard, encircle their house w/ gasoline and throw a match? No, it doesn't. (altough the thought is nice....:flaming: ) Still, though Osama probably thought really close to those same lines there, it's still not right, no matter how satisfying it might be, because there will ALWAYS be repercussions of your actions. This whole war thing just upsets me. I don't like war. Anyone who does 1) has never been in one, or 2) has mental issues in a non-joking matter. War=murder. One person's life isn't worth more than the next. Sadly, not enough people realize this. IF there is to be any 'justified' killing whatsoever, if would be the deaths of only those people who had a direct hand in the killing of the Americans. I'm very against bombing civilians, innocent people. *sigh* I can't really think of anything beyond this at the moment....

[k9*]

right on Anna. although, in this case, we tried to get the taliban to hand over osama and they refused, saying they needed proof. now osama has bragged about his involvement in 9/11, and they still refuse, saying that america should just forget the attacks on the twin towers.

i do not like the fact that there is a war going on that is claiming innocent lives, but i do not see any other action that is possible.

a little history: our flag is not the only design that was considered. there was one design that had a rattlesnake on it, the motto would be, don't tread on me. the flaw in this design was that a rattle would b added for each new state, soon the US would b seen as all warning and nothing to back it up.

the relevance: all the saber rattling done by different countries must b backed up with action. after we told the taliban that they must hand over osama or else, we must b prepared to back up the or else with action. otherwise we start to be seen as a pushover, and become an even better target for any other terrorists or tyrants that want to take potshots at us.

[Anti]

ok well i guess we have talked about and addressed most of the opinions on this topic....so I will change topics.....recently I saw somepost something about how.... "those stupid rebal flag hangers...and whats with Southern pride? someone should tell them that war is over..."...that post particularly got on my nerves for a couple of different reasons....first off I am from Texas....second off I would fall into the catagory of one of those "stupid rebal flag hangers"....I have my reasons for being like this because the confederacy stood for quite a few things...I also wore a shirt with the rebal flag on it a couple days ago and was appaled at how many people didn't seem to understand what the confederacy stood for...only the fact it was for slavery...So our next topic shall be... The Confederate States of America and the Rebal Flag....please post what you think about both and what you think it stood for....heh I esspecially interested to think what non-Americans think about this...

oh and before anyone acuses me of being so...I am not racist or for slavery... It is hard for me to be racist because of how I view the whole idea of "races"...but that is off topic and maybe bring it up later...and as far as slavery goes...I am completely against it...We are all human and thus have no right to "own" another human...in fact it is impossible to do so IMHO also because of the way I view things...of which I may bring up at a later date...I will say this about the confederacy... they supported the idea of slavery for a couple of reasons... First of all they saw darker colored people as infireior because they didn't have the same ideas or living conditions...to the europeans they seemend more like animals then men...and the South's whole econemy was built upon slavery... They believed that without a cheap workforce that the large plantations and manly agriculter based ecomnemy of the South would fail... I am merely explaining the facts of why the South supported slavery...not defending the idea...

[k9*]

goody, this is another tough one. i have ancestors from both sides of the mason-dixon line. i can see why some would feel pride in the flag of johnny reb, but i also see the pain caused by rememberances of what happened under it.
wasn't the civil war more about where the power of the government would reside, than about any one policy?
Abraham Lincoln was right to try to heal without placing blame. i'm getting a song stuck in my head "you fought all the way johnny reb, you fought all the way...."

don't say it k9, don't say it..........the dukes of hazard return :D
:blush: [color=red]sorry every1[/color]:blush:

[Anti]

yes their were a couple of reasons for the war....but the main one was the econemy of the South....and the goverment....The South stood for a goverment in which the states would have more right and their was a weaker Centeral goverment....while The North stood for a stronger centeral goverment and less states rights...

[Harry]

i am from texas, and personally do not care about the Confederation. It would never have worked imho.

also on a sidenote:
[quote]How can we (america and britain etc....) justify supporting the northern alliance when 20 years ago we drove them out of afghanistan to hand power to the taliban, although you are right[/quote]

taliban gained power 6 years ago

[Sui Generis]

Personally, I am from the south, related to Robert E. Lee actually, but I find that it is fine that they fly the flag. It is part of their culture. For some reason we are allowed to fly the old flag with the 13 stars, but you can't fly the red flag? That makes no sense. And besides people are blind, slavery wasn't even an issue for the first year or two. So in my opinion its perfectly find to fly it...

[Anti]

eheh yep...most people though.... They think slavery was the only issue....they are always going... Slavery is bad and anyone who has that flag supports it blah blah blah...... most people obviously didn't pay attention when they were taught about the war.... and Harry....the Confederation coulda worked out.... it would been something like what Canada is... The states would have had more power then the Centeral goverment.... meaning instead of the feds setting up the laws for stuff like education , tariffs... a large portions of laws... the States woulda set these laws...which brings me to another point of the war... Tariffs...that was a big old reason for the war... Increasing tariffs at the time was seriouslly damaging the Souths enconemy... because it's econemy was based largly on exporting Cotton then using the "credit" givin to the south by places like Britin they would buy stuff from that country...sure wasn't the best Idea for our own country's manufacturing... but that was how the cotton exporters got paid for their goods...

[Sui Generis]

Exactly! Lincoln just brought in the issue of slavery, to help the northeners fight. Their moral was really low at the beggining, they didn't understand why they were fighting...Another cause of the was was Lincoln....South Carolina said that if a Republican president ever was elected they would succede (spelling?), because they were afraid that he would ruin their economy. I think in some senses the south had every right to succede, but thats for another day.

[Harry]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anti [/i]
[B]eheh yep...most people though.... They think slavery was the only issue....they are always going... Slavery is bad and anyone who has that flag supports it blah blah blah...... most people obviously didn't pay attention when they were taught about the war.... and Harry....the Confederation coulda worked out.... it would been something like what Canada is... The states would have had more power then the Centeral goverment.... meaning instead of the feds setting up the laws for stuff like education , tariffs... a large portions of laws... the States woulda set these laws...which brings me to another point of the war... Tariffs...that was a big old reason for the war... Increasing tariffs at the time was seriouslly damaging the Souths enconemy... because it's econemy was based largly on exporting Cotton then using the "credit" givin to the south by places like Britin they would buy stuff from that country...sure wasn't the best Idea for our own country's manufacturing... but that was how the cotton exporters got paid for their goods... [/B][/QUOTE]

anything can work, the thing is, i don't think it would've worked.

[Sara]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Harry [/i]
[B]

anything can work, the thing is, i don't think it would've worked. [/B][/QUOTE][FONT=century gothic]Huh? That makes absolutely no sense to me. You're contradicting yourself.[/FONT]