Anti Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DuoGod of Death [/i] [B]I think in some senses the south had every right to succede, but thats for another day. [/B][/QUOTE] Actully Bryan that would be something perfect to talk about....go ahead and explain yourself....I agree with you that in some sense the Confederation had a right to secede....Their economy was getting screwed up, Their life and culture in some ways was being threatend.... So they did what they thought was best to save their way of life... sucede from the union and build a country that would protect their way of life.... Harry you sound like your contradicting your self....explain why you don't think it woulda worked.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Cera [/i] [B][FONT=century gothic]Huh? That makes absolutely no sense to me. You're contradicting yourself.[/FONT] [/B][/QUOTE] ok here. i said, anything [b]can[/b] happen, but there's a difference between it actually working, and hypothesizing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 [color=crimson]If my friend Anti does not mind i will start a debate... It's about [url=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/11/25/human.embryo.clone/index.html]The company that cloned a human embryo[/url] What are your veiws on this?[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Frankie5 Angels Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 Myself and Transtic had a debate on religion when I first came here.It didn?t end in hate.It ended with me having more respect for him and his beliefs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 *edit*Ken I find this question and topic...intriguing...but due to circumstanse I feel that I must post some guidelines to a topic that will involve anything dealing with religon...*/edit* 1.Be Mature 2.Don't Convert or go into "my religon is the only right way" mode 3. No threats 4. Don't take things personally 5. Be Mature 6.Don't "*anm people" ( I have had problems with this in r/l...) 7.No flame festing.... I know most of these should be unspoken guidelines to a conversation such as this....but unfortuantly what I have seenand heard from other posters is that people seem to have a problem following these....If you have a problem with any of these rules....simple solution.....DON'T POST....easy , effective, and the rest of us can have our conversation in peace... again I apologize for having to post these guidelines and even having to post guidelines...but from what I have heard not everyone is mature enough to know the guidelines without being told....I would like to reuest any God/Mod/Admin help in upholding these.... That may go unspoken or I may even be out of my place to propose such guidelines... I don't know as I am fairly new to Otaku Boards...but as I started the thread I have taken it upon myself to propose a set of guidelines that I would like followed and that should hopefully keep this discusion alive as long as possible...I also believe these guidelines do not contradict any rules for the boards... well anyway enough of my ranting.... ((I had another message but I felt it was to long and I ranted a tad bit to much....most people proubably wouldn't have read it...)) *edit*Ok one more edit...keep having to edit cause we arn't supposed to double post....Anyway another reason I find it nessecary to propose these guidelines...and this is coming as a warning... I will be going up against what most religous stand points are... I am just giving warning... alot of people might disagree with and or find my viewpoint threating... so this is as fair warning that once we start this topic up I may not be to frindly towards alot of religous viewpoints.... with that said and done...*/edit* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sui Generis Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anti [/i] [B] Actully Bryan that would be something perfect to talk about....go ahead and explain yourself....I agree with you that in some sense the Confederation had a right to secede....Their economy was getting screwed up, Their life and culture in some ways was being threatend.... So they did what they thought was best to save their way of life... sucede from the union and build a country that would protect their way of life.... Harry you sound like your contradicting your self....explain why you don't think it woulda worked.... [/B][/QUOTE][FONT=century gothic]You pretty much said what I was going to say.....There complete way of life was being being torn away from them. And for the exact same reason the United States of America was founded. If it was ok for us to leave England or whereever I think it was called for that they secede..The nothern had a decent economy, yet tried to capitalize on South's economy by putting outragouse tariffs that put people out of business and homes. Also the states were trying something, that the USA is proud to have...Equal share between states and capital....Also it was un-called for to do this, just because they didn't believe in slavery, doesn't mean they should screw the south's economy.[/FONT] [FONT=century gothic][COLOR=red]EDIT: Yeah I understand about the guidlines, I think it is a good idea to set guidlines, so it doesn't get out of hand....NICE JOB!!! :D [/COLOR] [/FONT] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Harry Posted November 27, 2001 Share Posted November 27, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anti [/i] [B] Harry you sound like your contradicting your self....explain why you don't think it woulda worked.... [/B][/QUOTE] i don't think it would've worked. I think the south would've squabbled too much over each and every issue, and they would constantly make sure that the central government doesn't get too much power. they would consentrate (my mind is fried, i don't remember how to spell it) so much on those things, that other things would just be blurred. and they would eventually fall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 27, 2001 Author Share Posted November 27, 2001 [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by DeathKnight [/i] [B][color=crimson]If my friend Anti does not mind i will start a debate... It's about [url=http://www.cnn.com/2001/TECH/science/11/25/human.embryo.clone/index.html]The company that cloned a human embryo[/url] What are your veiws on this?[/color] [/B][/QUOTE] ok well now that I have posted what I feel should be acceptal guidlines...I will go ahead and start on my opinion....I myself am not completely sure how I feel on this subject... Their are a lot of different things waying in IMO... a couple of my own philosphy's ... although I have heard an opinion from a very good friend of mine whom I happen to agree with very much... first I should explain a couple of things...science 2 biggest enemy's ... religon and conservatism(don't know if that is a word...means the act or mind set of being a conservative...) out of those...I believe the biggest argument against cloning and genitic engineering will be one question....do we have the right to play god...?......and personally I feel the answer to this is yes....we have every right.... my first argument in favor of this is a quote that I made up on my own(as far as I know)..."If man wern't ment to fly he wouldn't have invinted the airplane"...now how does this tie in...?...well if man wern't ment to genticly engineer things or clone them then man wouldn't have invinted the technology to do so... and now to touch on theology....and...how do we not know that we arn't ment to be gods....?....Is it at all impossible that we couldn't just be beings sent here merely for training and to learn....? ....no one can answer these questions...not unless you have died...which i doubt anyone here is dead..... I have more arguments but I want to hear what other people have to say before I post them... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DeathKnight Posted November 28, 2001 Share Posted November 28, 2001 [color=crimson]Here are my veiws... Cloning is a thing where we are messing with what god did... that to me is a bad thing... for if god wanted us to play god... we would be god... and not him... The creation of life just to recycle it for parts... is a digusting thing... That's like creating a nice piece of art... and chopping it up... to fiz another piece of art... it doesnt make sense and it ruins a already beutiful thing... Make a life... Take the life... Use it for some spare parts... do it again... Sounds like something out of hell... But then again who has the power to judge wheather other humans can play god.... we dont decide... We can only imagine what god would say... wheather he is happy... sad... or glad... The cloning of humans is opening a pandora's box...[/color] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 29, 2001 Author Share Posted November 29, 2001 ok but's here is a question to that whole idea..... can a clone be considered as "Life"?.....It is in some aspects....just a part of another person...so thus....wouldn't that person if it their wish...destroy the clone....? Basicly....because we create the clones....do we have the right to destroy them for our own use....? *edit*I know that they only plan to grow it to the embryo stage before they kill it....and this will have some advantages for medicine...which I understand...but when I think that...it makes my stomach do flips....I know that this will help many humans...and I am for that....and I am for us playing "god" to a degree...because from my view...it is our birthright...else we wcouldn't do it...but still...I...still....I just don't like the idea of it...just thinking about it makes my stomach do flips and brings up a number of questions in my mind....such as....are we taking the life of another being...?.....that is one of many...*/edit* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Videl~ Posted November 29, 2001 Share Posted November 29, 2001 I don't think that as an act, cloning a whole person is a wrong *ducks as lots of people throw stuff at her*. Ok, I think I'd better explain what I mean. I am not a religious person. I don't have the fear that some people do that cloning a human will prove we don't have souls (as if it works, how could we?) and as far as I'm concerned it's our DNA and we can do what we please with it. But after saying all of this I still don't think we should do it. I mean whats the point of doing something just to prove we can? Cloning a whole human would serve no medical purpose and just throw up a whole load of theological questions we are not yet ready for. And as for childless couples (sorry to sound heartless) but if you've tried everything that science has to offer today and still can't conceive then I think it's time to settle down and accept your lot. How could you love and accept a child that to all intents and purposes was you? Also any clone would most likely suffer horrible medical consequences (look at poor Dolly the sheep now) and who can imagine what sort of identitiy criis this poor person would go through knowing that they weren't an individual but just a copy of someone else *shudders* I can't even begin to imagine it. However I don't think all cloning research should be stopped. Theraputic cloning of cells whether for blood products or whole organs is a medical breakthrough that could significantly improve the quaility of life for a lot of people in the world. Imagine a time when you're dying of liver failure......."no problem" says the doc,"I'll just grow you a new one"- sounds far fetched but it's comming. Or perhaps growing bone marrow for a child with leukemia. The applications are endless and I really beleive we are standing on the brink of a new era of medicine, as long as closed mided politicians who only have the scantiest scientific knowledge don't ruin it for everone in the future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 29, 2001 Author Share Posted November 29, 2001 o.O I think cloning a whole human would be cool*ducks as large pointy objects get thrown at him*....it would help us in many ways understand more of the ways Humans tick...and just because we make a clone dosn't mean we don't got souls... just means we gotta share a bit...some people would not be ready for some of the aspects...true...but it is about time they caught up... IMO it would be grand if some of the religons got disproved...this is my opinion...not threating anyone... and I keep hearing about how everyone fears they would suffer from social disorders... well they can come be my friends...I would careless if they came from a test tube or "The natural way"...they still had to have the genitic material come from someone... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Videl~ Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Don't worry I'm not going to skewer you *hides kitchen knife quicly behind back and pulls bast angelic grin*:p :D But I think we should be finding out more about how humans tick before we start trying to clone them, not using them as guinnea pigs. I agree it would be interesting to see the effect of this on religion.........and as a friendly kind of gal I wouldn't care if someone was cloned, I like virtually everyone I meet. I just don't think it would be fair on the clone, to make anyone suffer physically and mentally needlessly is wrong, and like I said I personally don't see the point of doing something just to say you can. 'Sides that it'll never be as fun as doing it the old fashioned way ;) :D I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 lol...yeps....I agree on some of that stuff though...the needless suffering...and it will never be as fun as the old fashion way :naughty: ...as for the guinni pig thing...that would IMO have to be consentual...sure they were grown by that person...but if they cloned a human they would have to treat it like one...sure right now we might see cloning a whole human as something to do just to say we can...but we never know....having that ability later...like if we get someone really creative...could be useful... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Videl~ Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 Well I do agree with what you said there - this is a debate and we keep agreeing with each other, lol - but I was just wondering where you were going with........ [QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Anti [/i] [B]...but we never know....having that ability later...like if we get someone really creative...could be useful... [/B][/QUOTE] it's late here and my brains not working, could you explain? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 well....Lets put it this way...Later in the grnad scheme of things... the human race might find it useful to know how to succesfully clone a human...someone might come along and find a use for it...or we might find a need for it...so thus later on knowing how to clone a human fully and succesfully....could...become useful knowledge...and the only way that will happen is if we attempt to clone a human fully , learn from our mistakes then try again...I know that sounds cruel...but we have to have experience at it... we can't just sit here and theorize until we need it...then we would just screw up when it might depend on the survival of the human race... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
~Videl~ Posted November 30, 2001 Share Posted November 30, 2001 *sighs* I see your point on that one. Damn I hate ethical dilema's, it may need to be done at some point but it still doesn't seem right. Grrrrrr now my heads all messed up....and it's all your fault :mad: *brandishes kitchin knife again* maybe I should join GAA :D lol The thing that still gets me on the moral side, even though I agree with what you just said (but hope it never comes to that) stems from my not being religious. I believe that people only have one chance at life and who are we to use that one chance for our own ends (even though it's possible these people might chose to lay down their lives for the benefit of all people in the future) we have no right to make that choice for them. Oh the world is such a cruel place........... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anti Posted November 30, 2001 Author Share Posted November 30, 2001 *shrugs*....yeah it is....it is amusing we keep agreeing...or mayhap enough people just don't debate...oh wells....you don't have to be religous to believe that their is something after death....I think their is something after death...then again maybe not...who knows..?....See their are reasons behind my insanity.... *moves out of the way from her knife*...err...I will just stay over here.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
k9* Posted December 1, 2001 Share Posted December 1, 2001 sorry i haven't been on. i'm not really sure where i stand on the cloning issue. i do have some questions on whether the legal system is ready for it. think about it, what if a clone commited a crime where DNA was the only solid evidence? would both the original and the clone b sent to jail, knowing one of them was innocent, or would you take the 50/50 chance of getting the right one and sending them to jail? i don't like the idea of creating a clone for organ(or cell) harvesting, i know that the clone would have a conciousness and a soul all of its own. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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