Christian ... or Not?

[Hells Angel]

[B]You should do this for a living..very good explanation..=)[/B]

[Syk3]

Well, if I'm not mistaken, this is the first religious thread I have ever posted in, so.. I think I should get some type of award, or something. :)

I was baptized as a Christian at a very young age. United Methodist Christian, to be exact. When I lived in my old house, we lived about two minutes from a large and very friendly church, and we would walk to it every Sunday. I would go to Sunday School and automatically assume that everything they were telling us were true; I'm not sure if I was even vaguely aware that there were other, and even contradicting, views on religion. But of course, the best part about church was afterwards with free food, sweets, and hot chocolate. The whole thing was sort of implanted into my head and part of my life, though at such an age, I didn't really use what I learned in church as any sort of revelation. It was just.. there, you know?

But then we moved. We tried starting up again in other churches that were closer to our new house, but for me at least, it wasn't the same. My parents finally decided on a Methodist church about 7 minutes away, but at this point, I decided against going to their Sunday School program and just went with my parents to the normal service. It was boring. There was nothing to do, and still, I was going because I was supposed to. After a while, I began to sleep past the time it was held, and eventually stopped going altogether. That's when I started to really wonder what religion meant to [i]me[/i].

At this point in time, I'm on a brief hiatus in terms of religion. I don't think that I would really consider myself a Christian, but I haven't drifted to anything else either. That doesn't mean I haven't thought about it, though. I've generally come to the conclusion that religion is the peace of mind that we seek to answer the unanswerable, such as death, so that we can have something to follow rather than nothing at all, which is part of human nature in that we seek an explanation to that which is impossible to find otherwise. I have also realized that I may never find the religion that's right for me, because in something like organized religion, there are many common beliefs that, while you may agree with some personally, it encourages you to depend entirely on their teachings without question. In other words, you should base your religion after your beliefs, and not the other way around; this is where so many people go wrong. As such, you should explore the things you believe in before finalizing on a particular religion. If you do't fit into any of the mainstream religions, then you can still hold your beliefs in a self-religion, if you will.

I do believe in God, or at least a higher being of some sort. I think it wants us to live out our lives to the full extent without restraint for what may come afterwards, because you have this time and this time alone to enjoy Earth. If we put too much emphasis on an afterlife, we lose sight of what is important now. Let us work with this, and then if something should come afterwards we'll work with it when we get there. The meaning of life is to give meaning to it, and without devotion to a completion of something, we'll wonder what the point is. The meaning we give [i]is[/i] the point. For me personally, the highest thing I can achieve in this life is inner peace within myself, but the goal may be different for someone else. If that goal may be faith in a particular belief, go for it, I respect your decision all the way.

Recently, my friend was telling me a little about Buddhism, and I found that a lot of their beliefs are things that I have already come to the conclusion of and agree with. I'm obviously a little hesitant to delve further into it, since it seems to be "the cool religion to have" for some people (not saying everyone), and being an organized religion, there may be things I don't personally agree with making me unwilling to devote myself entirely to it. Of course, I may take some things from it, and mesh it with others to come up with my own religious beliefs, which I believe is the best way to embrace religion on the whole. I'm very facinated with philosophy, especially the idea of philosophy of religion, and though I haven't studied much with it yet, I do plan to take classes on such during my college career. I also eventually plan to read the bible.

But.. yeah. I think I probably went off topic a bit, but I'm glad to have gotten the chance to share it with other people.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I was baptised a Roman Catholic a few weeks after being born, most of my family are practicing Roman Catholics and we go to Mass every Sunday morning/Saturday evening in the local parish church. I've always been a Roman Catholic and my faith has always meant a huge amount to me, as anyone who knows me well is aware. Having faith is something that at least to me, transcends meaning, it's something that only those who have faith can understand, which is why those who don't often have trouble understanding where the value in it lies. I respect all religions and those who practice them, as well as those who practice none at all, it is their right to believe in what they believe just as I believe in what I believe, having faith is a personal thing, you can pray for other people but it's your faith that gives you a connection to something greater, in my case God. I may not have made that very clear because it's not something I find easy to explain. [/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Killer7]OKay this might get a little controversial:

Personally I used to be a Christian. I quit recently when I realized what God really was. God is just an excuse for somebody to have meaning in thier life, when in reality thier is no meaning in thier life. He is their to make people feel special about thier religion, and feel like they are better then Muslims, Jews, or whatever other religion you are. I was never really a big, Christian, I only went to Church on holidays, and an occasional Sunday..[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Killer7 you are aware that the God Muslims, Jews and Christians pray to is in fact the same God. So the fact that I'm Roman Catholic doesn't mean I go off to Muslims or Jews and say that my religion is better than theirs because I believe in God. Nor Killer7 is faith a way for people to have meaning in their lives, but as said before faith is something you have to experience before you can understand, but suffice to say while God does give meaning to my life he is not the be-all and end-all to it.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Killer7]THe Bible:

Come on, how can you listen to this? First off, their is a good chance everything was taken out of proportion. Also alot of Christians say that alot of the Old Testament is supposed be taken figuretively. Couldn't the same be true for the rest of the bible? For people who actually believed Genesis happened, I have one word: dinosaur, or did they not happen, just like Galileo's theries.

So if you are still Christian, think about it. DOes a simple 2000 year old book mean a entire religion is true? NO, just like Aesop's fables don'tmean the Grim Reaper exists.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Genesis is to be taken figuratively because it is something to allow people to comprehend it back then, just as we know understand how the planet and solar system was formed scientists are still arguing over why the most logical explanation of how the Universe was created "The Big Bang" actually happened, they think they can prove it happened but not why. As for the rest of the Old Testament it is pretty much historical documentation as Retri pointed out, the difference between the New and Old Testaments is that the New Testament was written in the last two thousand years and whether or not you believe it's true only matters in your own mind. I do believe it's true, where as fables are just fables.[/SIZE]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]As for the adversity in your life -- evil inflicted upon humans has nothing to do with God's actions. He gave us free will (or so I believe), and so things like the Holocaust, the dropping of the atom bombs, etc were all deeds done by humans alone. God's not being a ***** -- and I kind of resent that you said that -- he's giving us humans free will, and you're seeing the evil come out in us.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. See, this is one of the points that always manage to confuse me. You Christians claim that God's work can be seen in every day life, yet when one sees bad things happen, you Christians somehow take God out of the equation, saying that God gave people free will and they use it for evil.

So your God is only around when good things happen, and he turns his back on bad things?

I'm not an agnostic to the least, so there's no point in trying to convert me, but I find it interesting how people with faith in unseeable things explain their beliefs.

Too often I just see people desperately clinging to something they were taught, word to word. As if the whole truth about the universe and its infinite mysteries is contained within one book written 2000 years ago by numerous unknown sources and compiled a little later by a quarreling group of old men, and afterwards translated to countless languages by countless translators. And yet people want to believe that every word in "the Book" is from a supreme being, thus the ultimate truth.

I realize many people (the non-fundamentalistic Christians) have figured out that not everything said in the Bible fits our modern way of living, but still there are few favorite parts that tend to come up that are abused for an excuse to discrimination (mainly meaning the parts about women and homosexuals).

Surely there's many good and honorable morals in the Bible, but do you honestly think that they wouldn't exist without the Bible? That without the Book, people would feel free to kill each other freely, steal stuff and rape rampantly? Do you honestly believe humans are evil in nature, even in birth, and only godly blessing can "cure" us?

If that's so, your view of the world is way more depressing than mine.


PS. Now I wish I wouldn't've written to this thread in the first place, but now it's too late to back away - I feel compelled to debate! I just hope this isn't going to turn into a flame-war like so many other religious threads before this. I personally am trying my best to keep it polite and reasonable...

[Retribution]

[SIZE=1]Before I kick off this post, I?d like to say that part of my explanation is faith-based, so I don?t expect you to really understand all of it. Don?t say ?OMG Retri?s uber-evangelical1!? It?s my way of expressing my faith.

[quote name='Sage']I'm sorry, but I'm not convinced. See, this is one of the points that always manage to confuse me. You Christians claim that God's work can be seen in every day life, yet when one sees bad things happen, you Christians somehow take God out of the equation, saying that God gave people free will and they use it for evil.[/quote]
Actually, yes. God is perfect, and therefore His actions are only good. So yeah, if something good happens, it?s not always because of God, but it could be. Whereas the bad, he has almost nothing to do with. Some people argue that bad things happening is because of ?God?s plan,? which may possibly be true. He may be doing things for reasons that transcend our knowledge. Yes, I claim you can see God?s work daily ? God dwells within us and so when you see someone give money to the homeless, helping out a friend, you are seeing God?s will.

[QUOTE]So your God is only around when good things happen, and he turns his back on bad things?[/QUOTE]
No. God is omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient. God isn?t ?only around? when good things happen. God dwells within all of us, so when good things happen, it is in part because of Him. He never turns away from anything ? the wicked and evil turn their backs on Him. Like I said, some people say it?s because of ?His plan? that He allows evil to happen. Others, such as myself, argue that He gave us free-will, and sh t happens.

[QUOTE]Too often I just see people desperately clinging to something they were taught, word to word. As if the whole truth about the universe and its infinite mysteries is contained within one book written 2000 years ago by numerous unknown sources and compiled a little later by a quarreling group of old men, and afterwards translated to countless languages by countless translators. And yet people want to believe that every word in "the Book" is from a supreme being, thus the ultimate truth.[/QUOTE]
Hm? you might be seeing people ?desperately clinging? to faith because it?s something they need. Some people need to have a relationship with God to fill in an empty space they may have. Some will even argue that everyone, on some level or another, needs God. That?s not me, but I?m willing to toss that out into the discussion. No, the entire truth about the universe is not contained within the Bible. If it were, Christianity wouldn?t be being debated. If everything was plotted out for us, it wouldn?t be a faith ? it would be just like science, with no room for debate. I believe (as many other Christians do) that the Bible is written by humans, but the divine inspired the author. Not every word is from a supreme being ? again, most of the Bible is just documentation.

[QUOTE]I realize many people (the non-fundamentalistic Christians) have figured out that not everything said in the Bible fits our modern way of living, but still there are few favorite parts that tend to come up that are abused for an excuse to discrimination (mainly meaning the parts about women and homosexuals).[/QUOTE]
I?m frowning at your choice in wording. I think the word ?abuse? strikes me the most. Now, I?m definitely pro-gay rights and pro-feminist rights and all, but that?s what the Bible says. You?re right ? it doesn?t fit our modern way of living. Isn?t that all the more reason to believe that it was written by men? I believe (once more) that God is just, and that he has the final say in all these matters. I don?t like viewing the Bible as infallible, but more as a guide.

[QUOTE]Surely there's many good and honorable morals in the Bible, but do you honestly think that they wouldn't exist without the Bible? That without the Book, people would feel free to kill each other freely, steal stuff and rape rampantly? Do you honestly believe humans are evil in nature, even in birth, and only godly blessing can "cure" us?[/QUOTE]
No, I think you?re right that these values exist outside of the Bible. However, I believe that more people will follow them if they were imbued from our Creator, rather than laid down by the state. The world needs the message of faith, whichever that may be. Look at how torn certain areas are, and tell me that the state?s morals are enough. I think that reaching out with faith could touch people on a deeper level than state-encouragement. Again, decree from the police to follow, or an order from God. I?d say the latter is more powerful. At the risk of going on a tangent, I would also like to point out that not all the morals in the Bible are covered in state law. For instance, ?love thy neighbor? isn?t really required by the state. We?re required not to kill. Christians are encouraged not only to follow laws, but to go the extra mile, and to help those in need out. Jesus preached to the Pharisees, to-the-letter law abiders, that healing on the Sabbath (while breaking a Mosaic law), was done for a good much higher than following a law.

True, some areas (Middle East, for example) are torn, and have a strong faith, but that faith I believe, is heavily tainted and disregarded. The radicals who kill Americans and one another are blatantly missing the point of Islam.

My thoughts are kind of scrambled around, so forgive the faulty structure ? I was kind of writing things as they came.[/SIZE]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Sapphire Flare]
God doesn't believe in you, so you're not real. ;)[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Funny quote Sapphire Flare. I love it!

Okay the infamous religion thread! Yahoo!

*Ahem* I was Baptised Roman Catholic (Christian) when I was a month old. I went to religion class and Sunday school until second grade when I began to attend a Catholic school complete with nuns and religion class. I was in Catholic school until the middle of sixth grade then I went to public school. Seventh grade brought religion class again. I made my confirmation in ninth grade volunteered at the church's nursery and was in choir until 2002. Then I moved to Texas, went to church there about 3 times mayber four. Then in 2003 I found a book by Buchland that changed everything.

I'm a semi practising Wiccan/Pagan right now. I haven't been very good at keeping up with most of the stuff except the whole harm none and minor spells. I do healing and protection I suck at binding people. I'm also making sure I don't harm anyone.... that's a bit tricky at times. I believe in Kharmic retribution and that in order to have good things happen to you you have to do good things in turn.

I also don't believe in Satan. He's a Christian idea and not part of my religion. I got into an arguement about that with my mom and with a guy at work. I think that peopel aren't just soley evil. There is duality in everything.

My whole family is [i]very[/i] Catholic and some are better at being Christian than others. Some of them are also not happy about me and Lincoln not having Abby baptized right now. But even with the divorce we both agree that the religion she practises will be her own choosing. But we will take turns taking her to open rituals and allow my parents to take her to church if they want. I believe that eleven or so is the right time to choose a religion to follow.


And as for the Satanism topic let me tell you what I know about this religion. It's more of an embracing of the flesh and a complete opposite of what Christianity is. You're allowed to do harm to people when you practice magick in Satanism without fear of retriution (you're also allowed to do that when you practice VooDoo, but I don't know anything else about that) There are three basic types of magick in Satanism-Lust, revenge and I forgot the third one. However true Satanists don't do things like sacrificing animals or vigins or anything else for that matter. Actually while we're on the subject, no one who is pagan or Wiccan does any sacrifies either.

Okay I have to go now. I hope I cleared something up instead of confusing people more.[/color]

[Charles]

Here's how I feel about religion: I believe that each individual should define their own faith based on their experience with life. It's a much more satisfying feeling to derive greater meaning from the people and places around them instead of adopting a pre-existing theology. It's so easy to preach to others and tell them that your religion is what everyone should believe. It's so easy to complacently sit back and accept what others tell you to believe as truth. But, to make your own observations, to be insightful enough to make your own theories based on those observations and be content with holding them valuable to yourself--that's fulfilling.

We all have different people and things that are important to us. I personally think it's worth investing our faith and happiness in those things as compared to blindly following some dusty book.

[IceRose]

I used to be Catholic but then turned Buddhist and now I'm turning back to catholic. Is crazy because I changed religions more than 9 years ago and the fact that my mother is Buddist helped but there are not so many people that believe in the same principles and well not so many guys that will like a Buddhist girl.

[Annie]

[quote name='IceRose']I used to be Catholic but then turned Buddhist and now I'm turning back to catholic. Is crazy because I changed religions more than 9 years ago and the fact that my mother is Buddist helped but there are not so many people that believe in the same principles and well not so many guys that will like a Buddhist girl.[/quote]

[size=1]It's not crazy to change your religion. It's just saying that you're still not very sure of where you want to be. I went from Baptist, to Catholic, to agnostic, to Satanist, and to whatever I am right now. I really don't know for sure where I'm at in religion.

However, your last remark kind of set me to think. Is that really why you changed your religion? Because you wanted guys to like you? If so, please don't feel that religion has to do with everyone. And if a guy doesn't like you because you choose to be Buddist (which from my understanding seems to be the most peaceful and caring), then that guy's got issues of his own to deal with.

But, we're not talking about relationships ^_^;; So yeah, I don't think you're crazy or whatever for changing your religion. It's not a cake walk, and it's something no one can fully understand in their lifetime.[/size]

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]I'm not a Christain, Jewish, Buddhist, Muslim, or even Hindu (Gasp!) In my humble opinion, Religion has served its purpose. Religion came into being as a means of either the rich (Or the not-so-rich, depending on the situtation) looking for a means to rise to power, or as a glue to bind tribes together (The Jews are a good example of this) Either way, it was mostly just a crock. Christianity especially was guilyt of stealing, yes, plagerising, it's stories from Mesopotamian cultures (See Noah's Ark) aswell as several other cultures. After the fall of the Roman Empire (Western) and the rise of the Byzantine Empire (Holy Roman Empire, which was entirly false. It was in no way holy, not even close to Roman, and it was certainly not an empire) Catholisism became dominate in Europe and that was when Religion outlived itself in the Wester world. Catholisism, especially before the reforms, was designed, yes I mean it was purposful, to keep the people dumb, and no one can deny this.

I'm fiercly Athiest, but I have no problem with people believing what they want, even if I think their crazy. What would you think if I told you that The Great Whizzbang created the earth by blowing his nose in the Kerchief of the Universe? That's what I think about Christians (No offense, it's just my opinion on religion :D)
[/COLOR]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed] What would you think if I told you that The Great Whizzbang created the earth by blowing his nose in the Kerchief of the Universe?
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

You'd surely gain devoted followers, and after two thousand years people everywhere would worship the Almighty Whizzbang and his son Ilium who descended from the heavens in a roll of toilet paper (which would be a sacred object that shan't be touched). Few would dare to question this "truth", and that's the way religion works.

I agree with you that the people who really believe in the symbolic, mostly naïve stories in the Bible are true to the word have to be a bit crazy. On the other hand tough, aren't we all? ;D

You say that religiousness is outdated, and I think you're partly right, Ilium, but religion has always been around, in one form or another, so I believe people will always have some sort of faith in something. Because I do not believe that Christianity is the true thing, I think the people of year 3000 will surely worship something completely different, but still, they'll worship something.

And asides those who "have faith", there will always be those who don't, and those who just don't know or don't care. ;)

[Docbatman]

you know? i'm not sure what i am anymore. I don't go to church anymore, but my parents try to make me. It's a question that i constantly ask myself seeing how i love science but everything scientific contradicts the bible. I wish i knew.

[duStAnDteArS]

why are we so scared to believe in God? you can't be totally self sufficeint , you can't show God humans can evolve wihtout him! the guy that made up the thoery of evolution also hated god and wanted to prove him wrong and his real father too! guess what? evolution is stil JUST a THEORY, its not proven its a THeory. if you don't believe in god it shows your ignorance, and you refuse to be open minded about it. you are only hurting your selves! what do we have to lose by believe in the father, jesus christ and every other frickin so called saint? NOTHING. God loves you and will give you evrythign you could ever want and need . don't be a hypocrit and close the eyes of your heart to unseen beauty of the world! did you ever think of death, what willhapen when you die? do you believe that we just die seep into the ground,? picture it in your mind the smallest child who dies at birth(and dont say god killed his own child1.) everythign bad in this world coems from the devil and it is up to us to face him and fight him 2.) the child is w/ god now anyhow) , somethign so small and innocent will just cease to exist? no. we have a soul that give us life and spirit to this dirty piece of flesh we call a body! i believe in god, i am a christian , i belong to no religion but my own.... you can contradict me all you want! say what you think is right, but your life will always be missing something till you find the creator! gods words are sharper then any two=edged sword so try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!! you can't.

[Lafleur]

[quote name='duStAnDteArS']why are we so scared to believe in God? you can't be totally self sufficeint , you can't show God humans can evolve wihtout him! the guy that made up the thoery of evolution also hated god and wanted to prove him wrong and his real father too! guess what? evolution is stil JUST a THEORY, its not proven its a THeory. if you don't believe in god it shows your ignorance, and you refuse to be open minded about it. you are only hurting your selves! what do we have to lose by believe in the father, jesus christ and every other frickin so called saint? NOTHING. God loves you and will give you evrythign you could ever want and need . don't be a hypocrit and close the eyes of your heart to unseen beauty of the world! did you ever think of death, what willhapen when you die? do you believe that we just die seep into the ground,? picture it in your mind the smallest child who dies at birth(and dont say god killed his own child1.) everythign bad in this world coems from the devil and it is up to us to face him and fight him 2.) the child is w/ god now anyhow) , somethign so small and innocent will just cease to exist? no. we have a soul that give us life and spirit to this dirty piece of flesh we call a body! i believe in god, i am a christian , i belong to no religion but my own.... you can contradict me all you want! say what you think is right, but your life will always be missing something till you find the creator! gods words are sharper then any two=edged sword so try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!! you can't.[/quote]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I'm fairly certain I can...

Evolution is in no way a theory. Evolution is PROVEN, it is happening all around us, it is happening AS WE SPEAK. If you wan't to believe in God it shows your ignorance. Science has proven that it is impossible to walk on water, that it is impossible to be swallowed by a whale, that it is impossible for waters to part (Although a fissure from a volcanic eruption can emulate this) and Noah's Ark was not buildable (Considering that the tech for a craft that large didn't exist until MUCH later ((Roman-era was the dawn of real ship building))) not to mention that the so-called global flood was nothing but a massive flood around the Medditteranian.

You used hypocrite incorrectly. You didn't even use proper grammar (Couldn't hold down that shift key long enough to finish your usless !!!!!! strings, eh?) and a lot of what you said makes no sense (Your a Christian but you belong to no religion?)

Lastly, the human body is a limitlessly complex organism that, basically, is a group of cells all doing their jobs. The only thing we are yet to understand is how the human mind works, for it is by far the most complex organism on the entire planet. We are hardly pitiful pieces of flesh.

If god loves us, if he's a devine being, if he's all powerful, why did he not help the Christians win the Crusades? Why did he not stop the Ottoman Muslims from taking Jeruselum and Constantinople/Istanbul? Why did he not appear to the Native Americans or the Inuit or the Aztec or the Inca or the Maya or the Aborigini or even the Greeks! God is a make-believe figment of the human imagination. Grow up. Humans are not so much God's creation as God is the creation man.

I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.

It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-Albert Einstien [/COLOR]

[Zhara]

[quote name='duStAnDteArS']God loves you and will give you evrythign you could ever want and need .[/quote]

[COLOR=Purple][FONT=Garamond]God can't give me that Dodge Viper I've always wanted... :( [/FONT] [/COLOR]

[John]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]Well considering that to be a good Christian one should try to honor God through his/her actions, including speech? If so, is a loose tounge really honoring God? In fairness, cursing is usually subject to the vernacular of the culture... so I think that "cursing" sinfully falls under one's intentions. Cursing someone is a sin, but is saying "I bite my thumb at thee" at your friend a sin? Probably not...

I'm speaking from a Christian perspective...[/QUOTE]Well yeah, that's the same way I feel about it, and that's why I opt to say "cussing" instead of "cursing" or "swearing", because when you hit your head on a tree branch and say "dammit!" you're not cursing the tree. (Unless you actually are, for some reason.)

How you use the words (just as how you use any word) can obviously be sinful, but the words themselves aren't.

[quote name='Retribution][size=1'](imagine teaching peasants more complex things...)[/quote]"Rain!" "Gravy!" "Very small rocks!"[/size]

[Onix]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Okay, I'm not a Christian, but I know a little about the faith, and I'm willing to stand up for it. Besides, I love arguing. Heh.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
Evolution is in no way a theory. Evolution is PROVEN, it is happening all around us, it is happening AS WE SPEAK.[/quote][/color]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Well, it's arguable that anything's still evolving. Humans are, at the least, impeding our own evolution with the advents of technology. But that's another story for another time.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']If you wan't to believe in God it shows your ignorance. Science has proven that it is impossible to walk on water, that it is impossible to be swallowed by a whale, that it is impossible for waters to part (Although a fissure from a volcanic eruption can emulate this) and Noah's Ark was not buildable (Considering that the tech for a craft that large didn't exist until MUCH later ((Roman-era was the dawn of real ship building))) not to mention that the so-called global flood was nothing but a massive flood around the Medditteranian.[/quote][/color]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Note: there is a [I]reason[/I] they are called "miracles." These events occured because of God's will and God's blessing. That's how it could defy physics - it's a faith thing. I'm not saying it necessarily DID happen, I'm just saying there is the explanation.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']You used hypocrite incorrectly. You didn't even use proper grammar (Couldn't hold down that shift key long enough to finish your usless !!!!!! strings, eh?) and a lot of what you said makes no sense (Your a Christian but you belong to no religion?)[/quote][/color]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]And you used the wrong form of "you're," genius boy. Though...you are correct, in essence.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Lastly, the human body is a limitlessly complex organism that, basically, is a group of cells all doing their jobs. The only thing we are yet to understand is how the human mind works, for it is by far the most complex organism on the entire planet. We are hardly pitiful pieces of flesh.[/quote][/color]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]Still you've got to wonder how our minds grew so advanced. Or how, even, we developed those necessary sensory organs. Evolution, I know...but still, it's a bit odd that we've developed so successfully, don't you think?[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']If god loves us, if he's a devine being, if he's all powerful, why did he not help the Christians win the Crusades? Why did he not stop the Ottoman Muslims from taking Jeruselum and Constantinople/Istanbul? Why did he not appear to the Native Americans or the Inuit or the Aztec or the Inca or the Maya or the Aborigini or even the Greeks! God is a make-believe figment of the human imagination. Grow up. Humans are not so much God's creation as God is the creation man.[/quote][/color]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]He doesn't help people win because he loves all mankind impartially. At least, that is my understanding. Besides...ever heard of free will?

And, arguably, he did appear to those other cultures, just in different guises. Ever notice how much Zeus looks like the traditional interpretation of God? Every culture has had some kind of supreme being/beings, which could be facets of the same being, or a pantheon of angels, saints, and spirits.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']I cannot imagine a God who rewards and punishes the objects of his creation, whose purposes are modeled after our own -- a God, in short, who is but a reflection of human frailty. Neither can I believe that the individual survives the death of his body, although feeble souls harbor such thoughts through fear or ridiculous egotisms.[/quote][/color]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]In some cases, it is fear, or even ego, but mostly, it's simple faith that a good and loving God wouldn't just let you fade into obscurity. It's hope for a just life, belief in a greater purpose, and a sense of something bigger. The faith in the after-life has been present in almost every religion, which is pretty good odds anyway, ne?[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]It seems to me that the idea of a personal God is an anthropological concept which I cannot take seriously. I also cannot imagine some will or goal outside the human sphere.... Science has been charged with undermining morality, but the charge is unjust. A man's ethical behavior should be based effectually on sympathy, education, and social ties and needs; no religious basis is necessary. Man would indeed be in a poor way if he had to be restrained by fear of punishment and hope of reward after death.
-Albert Einstien [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=SlateGray][SIZE=1]It isn't, necessarily, a fear of punishment. It's a want to do something good. The belief that there is a Hell and Heaven may just be a tool to inforce that good should be done, not bad. God is ineffable, and thus, incomprehesible in His divine will, so how are we to know that we don't all just end up in the same place?

In the end, everyone needs something to hold on to. Some belief system that gets them through the constant trials of life, whether it's the faith that your God will, in the end, grace you with a peaceful afterlife, or the cynical knowledge that you're smarter than all the suckers out there who believe in all that religious crap. You believe by not believing, and I believe by having faith in the possibility that there is more to life than facts and figures, brief life and an eternal oblivion.

I may not agree with you, but I wish you well on your path. You, atheist to the core, I, a seeker of wisdom in all its guises (which sounds a little better than Integrated Polytheist...and a lot less syllabic). And that's just about all I have to say on that.

-ULX[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Oh yay, looks like I've got an argument on my hands... [/COLOR]
[COLOR=SlateGray]

[QUOTE]Well, it's arguable that anything's still evolving. Humans are, at the least, impeding our own evolution with the advents of technology. But that's another story for another time.[/QUOTE]
[/COLOR][COLOR=DarkRed]
Actualy, there is evidence that much of the world is still evolving. Especially in the Amazon Rain Forest, were new species and sub-species are constantly being discovered. One of the more graphic examples of Evolution (Or maybe Mutation would be a better term) occured in a coal mine in England. A sub-species of moths, which had begun to inhabit the mines, was discovered to have evolved into a completely different organism, it's lungs had changed completely so that it could breath the Coal Dust (It's true; the moths die in open oxygen) and it's entier outer body had turned coal-dust-black. Evolution at work.

[/COLOR]
[COLOR=SlateGray]
[QUOTE]
Note: there is a reason they are called "miracles." These events occured because of God's will and God's blessing. That's how it could defy physics - it's a faith thing. I'm not saying it necessarily DID happen, I'm just saying there is the explanation.[/QUOTE][/COLOR][COLOR=DarkRed]
I know this; it's why argueing againts religion is so difficult, but also why I love it. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=SlateGray]
[QUOTE]
And you used the wrong form of "you're," genius boy. Though...you are correct, in essence.[/QUOTE][/COLOR]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Mind Fart :animeswea [/COLOR]
[COLOR=SlateGray]
[QUOTE]
Still you've got to wonder how our minds grew so advanced. Or how, even, we developed those necessary sensory organs. Evolution, I know...but still, it's a bit odd that we've developed so successfully, don't you think?[/QUOTE][/COLOR]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Yes, it may be a bit odd. But, when you think of the odds, it was inevitable. Out of the trillions of trillions of some unimaginably high number of starsystems/solar systems/Galaxies out there, it would seem inevitable that at least one (Which just happened to be one small blue-green planet populated with carbon-based life forms) would develope some kind of conciousness. No one understands the complexities of the brain, but there are some theories as to how it evolved. Primative (And I mean pre-Cro-Magnum-man Primative) humans (Again, little more than apes) that lived in the open planes began to rely more on meat (Aswell as Bone Marrow and several other protien sources) than their tree-dwelling cousins. That extra protien (And protien has shone to increase intellegence and brain functions) gave them primative thought and, add 3 million or so years to develope, you have yourself the modern human being. [/COLOR][COLOR=SlateGray][COLOR=SlateGray]

[QUOTE] You believe by not believing, and I believe by having faith in the possibility that there is more to life than facts and figures, brief life and an eternal oblivion.[/QUOTE][/COLOR][/COLOR][COLOR=DarkRed]

And I respect your belif as you've shown respect for my belifs, or lack thereof. I only went on that little *caugh* rant because dustandtears challanged somone to, quote, "try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!! you can't." and I sort of couldn't resist. I live for debating, if it's about religion... All the better. [/COLOR]

[Ezekiel]

[COLOR=#F84E20][SIZE=1]I enjoy religious debates, but only when I'm able to voice my opinion and see my "opponent" (usually my RE teacher) get that perplexed and annoyed look...

I have one question that I'll leave to all of those who distinctly believe that what the Bible says is true when it comes to how the world became populated:

If we all came from Adam and Eve who, to my knowledge, only bore sons...how in the heck are we all different colours and, well, don't have 12 toes?

I always ask my RE teacher and they constantly ignore me.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Ask your RE teacher how the two Egyptian priests managed to turn their staves into snakes, even if they were supposedly eaten by the bigger one. The only explanation, by the bibles on logic, is that there are more G(g)od(s) than just the supposedly almighty one. That's my personal favourite, because, if you believe the bible, that means that you believe in more than one god, therefore making you both a pagan and a devout which is a bit of a paradox. I usually get a kick out of it.[/COLOR]

[Stuart]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][FONT=Trebuchet MS]I'd like to say that I am currently an athiest. My reasons are my own, so I won't be going into much discussion along the topic of "Christian... or Not?".
[/FONT][/COLOR]
[QUOTE=Imi][COLOR=#F84E20][SIZE=1]I enjoy religious debates, but only when I'm able to voice my opinion and see my "opponent" (usually my RE teacher) get that perplexed and annoyed look...

]I have one question that I'll leave to all of those who distinctly believe that what the Bible says is true when it comes to how the world became populated:

If we all came from Adam and Eve who, to my knowledge, only bore sons...how in the heck are well all different colours and, well, don't have 12 toes?

I always ask my RE teacher and they constantly ignore me.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=RoyalBlue]This made me laugh a little after reading it, and got me to thinking. So I did some research...

After Adam and Eve had children, how did they proceed onto the third generation? The children must have slept with each other, or their own parents. How do you explain this to an inquisitive child without condoning incest? Incest was the order of the day, and would have been required for two or three generations. The same applies to the story of Noah's Ark. The children of Noah's family and his wife's family must have slept with members of their parent's family, or each other. Any further generations would again be faced with the same choice.

The main problem is not morals, it can be argued that just because it is immoral does not mean that it didn't happen. The main problem is biological. Interbreeding two families causes severe retardation, mutation and infertility. This happens to isolated Human population even when there are more then two families. The problem increases with severity the more the inbreeding occurs.

"...full-sibling or parent-child incest results in about 17% child mortality and 25% child disability, for a combined result of about 42% nonviable offspring" - Donald Brown

The phenomenon of nonviable offspring from breeding between closely related family members is not limited to Humans, but to most life, especially amongst mammals and multicellular organisms:

"A study of 38 captive mammalian species found a cross-species average of around 33% offspring mortality resulting from closely incestuous matings" - Donald Brown

Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. When a Christian next time relies on the urban myth of "Christian Family Values" then wander how they would explain to someone the big question of "What happened after the Flood?" The only moral escape route is to admit that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor. The only biologically correct explanation known is that we evolved slowly from lower animals so that incest was never a problem.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[John]

[quote name='Hack Helba][font=Trebuchet MS][color=royalblue]Due to the non viable offspring that result from incest, which gets worse with each generation, the Adam and Eve story cannot be the literal whole truth. When a Christian next time relies on the urban myth of "Christian Family Values" then wander how they would explain to someone the big question of "What happened after the Flood?" The only moral escape route is to admit that the Adam and Eve story is a metaphor. The only biologically correct explanation known is that we evolved slowly from lower animals so that incest was never a problem.[/color'][/font][/quote]Well, the whole reason incest was ok in those times was because God was trying to populate the Earth, and I can only assume that birth defects didn't occur because, simply enough, he made them not. That's why he's God, lol.

[Sandy]

[quote name='Who?']Well, the whole reason incest was ok in those times was because God was trying to populate the Earth, and I can only assume that birth defects didn't occur because, simply enough, he made them not. That's why he's God, lol.[/quote]

Sure, you can explain everything by that... ;P It's the same as "the wizard did it!"

Your faith is a practical little thing, isn't it? It takes away all needs to think for yourself, or actually wonder about anything ever. Simple solution to simple people, I say...

[John]

[QUOTE=Sage]Sure, you can explain everything by that... ;P It's the same as "the wizard did it!"

Your faith is a practical little thing, isn't it? It takes away all needs to think for yourself, or actually wonder about anything ever. Simple solution to simple people, I say...[/QUOTE]And I suppose you get this attitude from the idea that because something, anything, is simple, it must be wrong? Get off your pedastal, dude.

And don't accuse Christianity of simplicity, because I can assure you that when you start learning about it, it's a hundred times as complex as Atheism. God doesn't always intervene straighforwardly like that (barely ever, in fact), but it does happen.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Who?]And I suppose you get this attitude from the idea that because something, anything, is simple, it must be wrong? Get off your pedastal, dude.

And don't accuse Christianity of simplicity, because I can assure you that when you start learning about it, it's a hundred times as complex as Atheism. God doesn't always intervene straighforwardly like that (barely ever, in fact), but it does happen.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Give me one properly recorded shred of proof that God ever directly intervened with anything. And don't even try to use the crash at Toronto as an example. As John Stewert put it, the only mirical there was the lightninbolt that struck the plane.


Oh, and by the by, I have studied Christianty in depth. I've had several 100-page arguments with people over it. I know more about it than you, most likely. And I know it's a complete crock. What Sage said was correct; Saying it was 'Devine Intervention' is exactly the same as saying 'The Wizard Did It' or somthing along those lines. [/COLOR]