Christian ... or Not?

[sakurasuka]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]I dissagree with nearly (NEARLY) every word of yours, Ilium. Let me explan.

Evolution is NOT a proven fact. It is a shaky theory at the very MOST. The ONLY reason it is taught as scientific law is that humans cannot STAND to hear that there is a power beyond them. They all wish to explain away things with scientific reasoning and laws, but even scientific law is not fully solid! It merely means it has been tested [I]to a point[/I]. That point is nothing in the entirety of the universe. The theory of spontanious generation was disspelled [I]only after[/I] a [I]correct[/I] test was done to prove it wrong. No law is perfect except the law of God.

Let's go back, shall we? To the time of a man (I believe his name was Darwin) who brought about the theory of Evolution, and the division of Micro and Macro-Evolutions. (Micro-Evolution=MiE, Macro-Evolution=MaE)

Darwin (I believe that's his name. If it's not, that's what we'll call him for the time being until someone corrects me) proposed a theory after one of his trips. He called it Evolution. He came up with this theory after many glances at particular speicies of finches he discovered on that trip. They all appeared similar, but differed in slight areas. Some had pointed beaks, obviously for probing flowers and such. Some were larger and had more blunt beaks, more designed for cracking nuts. Some had short beaks better for eating berries and small bugs.

Darwin noted that, other than these slight (Yet horribly noticable) differences, these finches appeared to be of the very same species. He wondered if, in fact, these creatures all used to be exactly the same. He produced theories in his head how these birds slowly changed to adapt. He then wondered what would happen if they kept changing... Might they become an eagle some day? Might they even, millions of years from now, give birth to a perfect human through his newly found theory of [B]Evolution[/B]?

He tested his theory day and night. Every scenario produced mixed results, finally forcing him to conclude that there was really no evidence of his theory.

Darwin's theory however, lived on. He wrote a book. If you were to read the book (I've glanced and skimmed parts on the internet a while back when I was studying Biology.) you would discover that he states on nearly EVERY page that there is far more evidence AGAINST his theory than FOR it. (I personally respect Darwin for seeing more sides than just his own, unlike SOME of those who've posted in this thread.)

This book caused an uproar. Never before has any scientific theory not included our heavenly Father. It was both an outrage and an amazing discovery. Many threw away thier faith, and many others became yet more faithful (And defensive of thier faith)

Darwin continued his studies, looking for something... ANYTHING to prove as evidence for his case. Nothing did. In a last ditch effort, his split his theory of evolution into two sepatare theories... MiE and MaE.

MiE is the proven beyond reasonable doubt theory that I believe. It states that minor changes can evolve within any species to adapt, but the species itself cannot change. This has been proven since the discovery of DNA. The number of alliels (sp?) differs from species to species, and the number of alliels CANNOT change. Therefore, species can morph slightly to adapt, but cannot evolve outside thier own genetic code. This is actually more of an argument for Creation, as it proves that God had given us ways to change WITHIN the world and code he created FOR US.

The other theory, MaE, is unproven and flawed. It is the theory of evolution at it's rawest and scientifically incorrect. If this theory was true, then wouldn't we find the 'missing links' all throughout the world? If we evolved from apes, wouldn't there be fossils of monkey-men found? Is it just horrible coincidence that NOTHING SIMILAR to missing links have been found? Darwin explained that might simply be the case, but it's been MANY years since that, and STILL nothing? I think your theory might be far beyond flawed, my friend.

The one thing you are correct about is that little less proof in favor of Creation has been found. This post was not to prove the theory of Creation right, for that simply cannot be done. I was just trying to show you how flawed any other theory is, and just because the theory of a God might sound ludicrus to you, it is no more crazy and immpossible than any OTHER theory man has coughed up.

By the way, I AM Christian, in case you wondered ;^)[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Who?]And I suppose you get this attitude from the idea that because something, anything, is simple, it must be wrong? Get off your pedastal, dude.

And don't accuse Christianity of simplicity, because I can assure you that when you start learning about it, it's a hundred times as complex as Atheism. God doesn't always intervene straighforwardly like that (barely ever, in fact), but it does happen.[/QUOTE]

I'm not standing in any pedestal, mind you. I just wish people would stop taking things for granted and began to think for themselves!

I believe that even the events at 9/11 could have been prevented if the hijackers had stop to think "is this really what our god wants us to do?". After all, they did it because they believed they had to in order to serve their god. Defeat the enemy of their god, and all that.

I'm not saying Christianity is simple, either. I think it's overly complicated, for example the Trinity stuff: "Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all one but they are also three, separated but not apart" etc. (sorry, I have to translate these things from Finnish in my mind, so they might not be accurate in English).

I was saying that blind belief is simple, no matter what religion we are talking about, and people who shut their eyes from all other options are very simple in my opinion as well.

And I have studied Christian religion in school, for twelve years! I've also studied many other religions as well, and I can't say I find any evidence that any one of them is the only true religion. Atheism isn't really a religion, so you can't accuse it for being simple. Atheism is the [I]opposite[/I] of religion, [I]not[/I] to believe in any higher force. It's very complicated to actually have to figure everything out by yourself in your own mind, not just look from some book for answers. ;P

It's great that you get comfort in believing something, but you don't have to be so agressive in defending your faith - it will only make you look like you're uncertain. ;)

[B]Sakurasuka:[/B] Don't you think that there might have actually been researches about evolution after Darwin? ;) You're speaking like he is the only one who has ever studied the subject! I'm no researcher so I have very little understandment over the micro- and macro-whatnots, but to me, [I]any[/I] theory with at least some effort to solve the Big Mysteries of the Universe with one's own brain exceeds the one where "God just made it all happen like that".

I'm not saying that the Theory of Evolution is the ultimate truth, but still you Christian people seem strangely offended and aggravated by it.

Makes you doubt, does it? Makes you use your [I]own thinking[/I], does it? Scary, huh? ;P

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Perhaps the Adam and Eve story is true, and as we currently are, we are but a poor reflection of super-intelligent ancestors with three legs and numerous eyes.

I feel so retarded and deformed...[/size]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]Perhaps the Adam and Eve story is true, and as we currently are, we are but a poor reflection of super-intelligent ancestors with three legs and numerous eyes.

I feel so retarded and deformed...[/size][/QUOTE]

That very same thought has crossed my mind few times too. ;D And if God created A&E to his own image, think about what kind of a God two billion people are worshipping! An [I]alien[/I] God!

[Kamuro]

[quote name='duStAnDteArS']why are we so scared to believe in God? you can't be totally self sufficeint , you can't show God humans can evolve wihtout him! the guy that made up the thoery of evolution also hated god and wanted to prove him wrong and his real father too! guess what? evolution is stil JUST a THEORY, its not proven its a THeory. if you don't believe in god it shows your ignorance, and you refuse to be open minded about it. you are only hurting your selves! what do we have to lose by believe in the father, jesus christ and every other frickin so called saint? NOTHING. God loves you and will give you evrythign you could ever want and need . don't be a hypocrit and close the eyes of your heart to unseen beauty of the world! did you ever think of death, what willhapen when you die? do you believe that we just die seep into the ground,? picture it in your mind the smallest child who dies at birth(and dont say god killed his own child1.) everythign bad in this world coems from the devil and it is up to us to face him and fight him 2.) the child is w/ god now anyhow) , somethign so small and innocent will just cease to exist? no. we have a soul that give us life and spirit to this dirty piece of flesh we call a body! i believe in god, i am a christian , i belong to no religion but my own.... you can contradict me all you want! say what you think is right, but your life will always be missing something till you find the creator! gods words are sharper then any two=edged sword so try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!! you can't.[/quote]
[SIZE=1]wow, lots to say about this

[I]"evolution is stil JUST a THEORY,"[/I] heres some news, God is still just a theory. Just as evolution can't be written down on paper and scientifically proven, neither can God. You can show no more evidence that God exists then I can that evolution does. All these fairy tale stories, the bible, which wasn't even written by God in the first place, none of it proves anything.

[I]"if you don't believe in god it shows your ignorance, and you refuse to be open minded about it,"[/I] that statement is as narrow-minded as they come. Just as others have decided not to believe in God and respect his beliefs, you do the same to their own. Your eyes are so focused on God you don't see the other happenings of the world and things going on around you. Whether you believe in God or not, you won't live a fulfilling life closing yourself off to other possibilities. The only way mankind makes strides in all fields of life is thinking outside the box, not simply accepting what we're given and settling for it.

[I]"what do we have to lose by believe in the father, jesus christ and every other frickin so called saint? NOTHING,"[/I] well what do you have to lose by believing in people, or even in yourself? Is it so scary to stray away from God and get to know other ways of life before simply judging them and condemning them as ignorant? Did it ever occur to you that maybe these people have a certain religion because it makes them happy? You preach about God and how he brings eternal happiness, but it's possible to find joy and fulfillment elsewhere. We don't rely solely on God for our own happiness, and that scares you.

[I]"gods words are sharper then any two=edged sword so try and defeat me1!!!!!!!!!!,"[/I] perhaps you meant double-edged sword? And you're right, this matter is a double-edged sword, you used the expression wrong, but the true meaning still holds some truth nonetheless. It's a double-edged sword because for every remark you made there is an equal and opposite one to take into consideration. As blind as you believe us to be, you exude the same characteristic and even more so in most cases. You have found happiness with God, and that's great, but that doesn't mean it's whats right for everyone. If someone is happy worhshipping another entity, or none at all, then who are you to question their happiness? You believe in God, but by no means do you have his power or his right to pass religious judgement upon others. God wishes to promote the religion freely, not opress those who share a conflicting belief.

And as I've said before, it is a sin to pass judgement upon those who aren't Christian like yourself. So you're time at church this Sunday will be well spent repenting for all your sins. Thanks

Kamuro
"the Heretic" lol[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Sakura, MiE on a large scale IS what we call evolution. Tiny little changes, bit by bit, eventually change a creature beyond recognition. That's what evolution, basically, is. Things don't just transform overnight, over millions (Yes, Millions. That in it self disproves Creation BTW) upon millions of years, small little defects in animals change and morph, little by little, and suddenly you have an entire new sub-species or an entirly different animal. Depending on the situtation, an animal can be completely different from another animal of the same species. Now these different animals of the same species both undergo changes that are completely different. Thus the species diverges, just like humans and Apes did. Each time these animals have babies, their genes pass on these small (Practically always to tiny to measure) changes and over millions of years the species changes.

I've already posted some examples of evolution in action. The Moths, though still moths, have EVOLVED into somthing thatn is completely different. The Amazon is full of these little sub-species. Recent expeditions in the artic, mostly around glaciers, have discovered a form of worm (Known, originally enough, as the Ice Worm) that, although still technecally a worm, is absolutly nothing like a normal worm. Even the insides of it are completely different. This is evolution not adaptation.

Just so you know, fossils of Monkey-Men have been found. Everywhere. Even pre-historic cities have been found, although the names are complicated and escape me at this point. There have been homo-habulus (SP?) which literally means Handy Man, many of them have been found. Ever hear of Lucy? It is, basically, the missing link. Even older forms of manking have been found since. The supposed Missing Link no longers exists. [/COLOR]

[Ganymede]

Hummm...very interesting. Notice that this thread was started to ask if anyone was a christian and their reasons for it, yet the majority of you who posted are against it.

Anyways. Here is what I have to say about this.

I am a CHRISTian. I have been a christian since I accepted Christ back when I was oh...5 or 6. I have faithfully gone to church for practically all my life . My dad was catholic growing up but no long attends any church. My mother was a christian growing up but she also no longer goes to church. I was brought to church by my aunt and now my grandma also. I choose to go to church of my own free will. I am not guilted or forced to go against my will.

I know I might sound a little forward in this post, so please forgive me if offend anyone.

First off, God is perfect. Just plain and simple. He has a plan that encompasses every living thing on this planet. Those of you who believe that there cannot be a God because no God would let bad things happen to the people He loves, are in my mind completely wrong. Bad things do happen, and they hurt like heck when they happen. But know that they happen for a reason. God lets bad things happen to us when we do wrong because we have to pay the consequences of our actions. Our relationship with God is one like a father and child. If the child does wrong, they need to be punished so that they will not continue to do that bad thing. Of course some of us children are hard headed and stubborn so He will continue to punish us until we understand what we do is wrong.

He also puts bad things in our path, so that we can overcome them to make us stronger. The strength that you get from overcoming these things make your character and your spirit grow. Have you ever met a person with a strong character and a strong spirit? Don't those things attract you to that person more? Don't you want to know how they can be so strong and positive? Don't you wish you could be like that? As in all things that are of great worth, you will have to suffer hardships and hurts. The harder they are the better the rewards are. Think of it like building muscle. The harder you work out, the more sore you'll be the next day. But eventually that soreness will go away and you'll be left with strong muscles.

Now those of you who scoff at the idea of a supernatural omnipotent being, think of this. Why are you here? What is the purpose of your living? Why do you continuely get up every morning to go to school or work. Why fo you go through all this crap life throws at you when in the end, you'll just die and you will be nothing. You have no purpose to live if you don't have God. Sure you can tell yourself that I live because I want to get this or I want to be dependent on myself, or acheive this or that goal. But what does it really matter? When your dead, nobody cares.

Another misconception that many people believe about christian people is that we think we are above everyone else, that we are hypocrites, and we are blinded by our religion of our faults. Guess what? NOT TRUE!!! We are as human and as fallible as anyone. ANY christian can make a mistake, they can say the wrong thing, do something really bad like murder or steal or do drugs. We make mistakes, but for those of us who truelly believe in God, we know that if we do something out of our christian character we can be forgiven by God, but we are going to have to face the consequences of our actions, and we are to not do those things again. And now you would say " but they do them again". Yes, we continually stuggle to do the things expected of us. Nobody ever said it was easy to resist bad things once you are a christian. If you fall, you need to pick yourself back up again and say to yourself "I fell, now I know that if I do that, I will fall, so I need to avoid what ever caused me to fall."

So now I have set right some misconceptions on your part. I believe God because I see the things He does for me. Every good day I thank him for and every bad thing I thank Him for because he has a reason for me to be in those situations. " If God brought you to it, He'll bring you through it"

Ps: for those of you who think that swearing is alright and it doesn't say anything in the bible about it. GUESS WHAT? YOU ARE WRONG!!! Take out your handy dandy bibles and flip to that wonderful New Testiment to Colossians chapter 3 verse 8.

" But now you yourselves are to putt off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, FILTHY LANGUAGE out of your mouth."

I believe my version is in the NIV, but I could be wrong, there might be different wording and other stuff in other bibles, so be careful.

Check and see if you don't belive me, if you don't have a bible go to your local library, they should have one! ^_^

Edit: oopsie I made a boo boo, see!! SEE!! I made a mistake. I misread the first post to this thread It say "which of you are christian and which are not :animeswea
Heh sorry!

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Sage]I'm not saying Christianity is simple, either. I think it's overly complicated, for example the Trinity stuff: "Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are all one but they are also three, separated but not apart" etc. (sorry, I have to translate these things from Finnish in my mind, so they might not be accurate in English).

I was saying that blind belief is simple, no matter what religion we are talking about, and people who shut their eyes from all other options are very simple in my opinion as well.

And I have studied Christian religion in school, for twelve years! I've also studied many other religions as well, and I can't say I find any evidence that any one of them is the only true religion. Atheism isn't really a religion, so you can't accuse it for being simple. Atheism is the [I]opposite[/I] of religion, [I]not[/I] to believe in any higher force. It's very complicated to actually have to figure everything out by yourself in your own mind, not just look from some book for answers. ;P[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]I really disagree with you here. Many of those with faith did alot of soul-searching and thinking to feel at peace with their religion. I think that Christianity is not blind -- it's actually a very courageous. Taking the 'leap of faith,' is never an easy thing to do. Yes, blind belief is simple, but your post before this one implied heavily that religion in general was a simple way of living life.

[QUOTE]It's great that you get comfort in believing something, but you don't have to be so agressive in defending your faith - it will only make you look like you're uncertain. ;)[/QUOTE]
Actually, I'm gonna agree with you there. I feel ashamed when people go vomiting gospel at people. It's extremely rude and reflects upon your faith very negatively.

[QUOTE]I'm not saying that the Theory of Evolution is the ultimate truth, but still you Christian people seem strangely offended and aggravated by it.[/QUOTE]
Who says science and faith cannot co-exist? Surely there are times when they contradict, but belief in science does not rule out the possibliity of having a faith. "Us Christian people" is offensive to me -- I'm for the Theory of Evolution, and I'm certainly not aggravated by it.

[QUOTE]Makes you doubt, does it? Makes you use your [I]own thinking[/I], does it? Scary, huh? ;P[/QUOTE]
Faith requires quite a bit of thought and doubt. I know I have had many rocky places in my journey where I doubted the existence of God. Last of all, God does not praise those who blindly swallow His word. Jesus preached attitude over action, meaning the purpose of your actions are more important than the actions themselves. For instance, helping a poor person to get 'bonus points' with God versus doing it out of the kindness of your own heart.[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
So now I have set right some misconceptions on your part. I believe God because I see the things He does for me. Every good day I thank him for and every bad thing I thank Him for because he has a reason for me to be in those situations. " If God brought you to it, He'll bring you through it"
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Care to expand on this? Maybe some example of divine intervention, directly or indirectly. Purely out of curiosity, I want to see somthing that is a clear example that it is in fact some devine being and not just some normal occurance (Better known as Life) [/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Ps: for those of you who think that swearing is alright and it doesn't say anything in the bible about it. GUESS WHAT? YOU ARE WRONG!!! Take out your handy dandy bibles and flip to that wonderful New Testiment to Colossians chapter 3 verse 8.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
You cannot take the bible literally. If you took the bible, word for word, literally, you yourself would be both Pagan (For the belif there is more than just God, see my post about the Egyptian Priests) and devout. The Bible is a giant paradox of hypocrisy and other such falseties.

BTW, not related to your post, I just want to post this to elemenate any lingering doubts about Evolution.

[URL=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evolution]Read the whole artical, not just the opening paragraph[/URL] [/COLOR]

[John]

[QUOTE=Ilium][color=darkred]
Give me one properly recorded shred of proof that God ever directly intervened with anything.[/color][/QUOTE] Obviously, I can't give any proof. You're missing the entire point of Christianity because you're basing everything off of logical thought and excluding faith and emotion. Those are as much a part of life as logic is, and should be looked at thusly. So no, you don't know Christianity as well as you think you do.

And for that matter, saying "the wizard did it" is logical, anyway. We're not talking about some other human here, or some element of nature. We're talking about the power that created everything in existence and can do literally whatever the hell He desires with it. Since I believe that He exists, saying that he can stop incest is every bit of a logical statement.

[quote name='Sage']I believe that even the events at 9/11 could have been prevented if the hijackers had stop to think "is this really what our god wants us to do?". After all, they did it because they believed they had to in order to serve their god. Defeat the enemy of their god, and all that.[/quote]That's very true, and from what I ken, most Muslims disagree sharply with those radicals. But as I just mentioned, believing in Divine Intervention is completely logical, so it doesn't compare to that situation.

[quote name='Sage']I was saying that blind belief is simple, no matter what religion we are talking about, and people who shut their eyes from all other options are very simple in my opinion as well.[/quote]Again, you're right. And I don't just shut my eyes from everything else, either. Everything I believe, I weigh balancedly against all other possiblilities. Just because I [i]do[/i] believe one of those possibilites and don't believe another doesn't mean I'm shielding myself from all other options.

[quote name='Sage']It's great that you get comfort in believing something, but you don't have to be so agressive in defending your faith - it will only make you look like you're uncertain. ;)[/quote]Sorry, but the only reason I defended my beliefs aggressively is because it by all means looked like you were attacking them aggressively.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
Obviously, I can't give any proof. You're missing the entire point of Christianity because you're basing everything off of logical thought and excluding faith and emotion. Those are as much a part of life as logic is, and should be looked at thusly. So no, you don't know Christianity as well as you think you do.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I think I understand Christianity just fine. You see, just saying "No, your mountians of actual evidence mean nothing to me! God soooooooooooooooooooooo did it. Even if I dont have a scrap of evidnce, he sooooooooooooooooooooo did it!" isn't enough. That's what we call blind faith, and that is one of the weaker aspects of the human mind. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
And for that matter, saying "the wizard did it" is logical, anyway. We're not talking about some other human here, or some element of nature. We're talking about the power that created everything in existence and can do literally whatever the hell He desires with it. Since I believe that He exists, saying that he can stop incest is every bit of a logical statement.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Yes I understand that it's all faith, but it's basically God (Who has, more or less, zero credible evidence) VS Things that prove that god is notihng but a figment of our imagination (Which, just so you know, has mountain ranges worth of imformation strangly laking from Christianity and religion in general)[/COLOR]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Ganymede]
Of course some of us children are hard headed and stubborn so He will continue to punish us until we understand what we do is wrong.
[/QUOTE]

Well isn't your god a jolly ol' fella? ;P Takes to the spanking scene, does he?

I'm sorry, I'm abhorrently offensive now, but I blame for the lateness and my lack of sleep. I'm currently in a hyperactive way-past-bedtime -mood. ;D

What you must realize, Ganymede, is that you simply [I]can't[/I] convert me, or Ilium, or Kamuro, or any of us who admits being an atheist, just as we can't convert you. You try to sound convincing, and I bet to your ear you do, but to me you sound just as "brainwashed" as dustandtears (meaning that you repeat words that are taught to you).

We don't share the same beliefs, although we both have strong trust in ours, and getting another person with strong beliefs to change them is quite impossible. So I'm not going to even try. The reason I keep replying to this thread is that I simply find it entertaining. ;) Debating[I] is [/I]fun, although it rarely gets you anywhere.

Yet, pointing to my first snarky comment, I must wonder your perspective of the world. You aren't even repeating the "God gave us free will"-mantra, you're going totally Old Testament! God punishes, God makes you pay until you learn, God causes bad things to happen so we'd respect Him! You are quite the gleamy-eyed zealot, aren't you?

Like we humans are mere toys to this one almighty presence, that does what he likes to us. Well, I think you're utterly, horribly mistaken. People [I]do[/I] have free will, but it wasn't "granted" to us. We are as free as the bird in the sky or the ant in the dust, because we are like them! A species of animals, highly developed and [I]on top of the evolution[/I], but still animals.

People who are all for the Creation seem to forget all the evidences that us humans haven't always been around. It's been proven that once this world was nothing but a ball of molten lava - that's the way the planet formed. It's been proven that once this world was covered under water - that's the way life began. It's been proven that once this world was ruled by enormous reptilians - the dinosaurs, do they ring a bell? With modern technology the fossils can be dated to be millions of years old. There has been no findings of human remains from that long ago. Wait, could that mean that us humans [I]haven't [/I]been around since the beginning of time?

Surely you can believe that the ancient fairy tales such as The Creation and Noah's Ark to be true to the word, but don't be surprised if you get amused smiles and snarky remarks in return.

And you can curse us non-believers with all the divine wrath you like, we will still live totally normal lives, lightning-bolt free. ;)

[John]

[QUOTE=Ilium][color=darkred]
I think I understand Christianity just fine. You see, just saying "No, your mountians of actual evidence mean nothing to me! God soooooooooooooooooooooo did it. Even if I dont have a scrap of evidnce, he sooooooooooooooooooooo did it!" isn't enough. That's what we call blind faith, and that is one of the weaker aspects of the human mind.

Yes I understand that it's all faith, but it's basically God (Who has, more or less, zero credible evidence) VS Things that prove that god is notihng but a figment of our imagination (Which, just so you know, has mountain ranges worth of imformation strangly laking from Christianity and religion in general)[color=#000000][/QUOTE] [/color][/color][color=black]You missed it again.[/color]

It isn't all about the evidence. Go back and read what I said about logic again, and slower this time.

And do you have evidence that God doesn't exist? Sure, I guess. I haven't heard of any myself, but I [i]will[/i] take your word on that. Wholeheartedly. However, there's also, I'm sure, real evidence that Atlantis exists. Lots of evidence, I'd venture to guess. Problem is, it doesn't. You get my drift?

[QUOTE=Ganymede]Ps: for those of you who think that swearing is alright and it doesn't say anything in the bible about it. GUESS WHAT? YOU ARE WRONG!!! Take out your handy dandy bibles and flip to that wonderful New Testiment to Colossians chapter 3 verse 8.

" But now you yourselves are to putt off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, FILTHY LANGUAGE out of your mouth."

I believe my version is in the NIV, but I could be wrong, there might be different wording and other stuff in other bibles, so be careful.

Check and see if you don't belive me, if you don't have a bible go to your local library, they should have one! ^_^[/QUOTE]Indeed I did. The Revised Standard uses the phrase "filthy talk", and the King James says "filthy communication". If you ask me, that seems to point more towards [i]what[/i] you're saying, not [i]how[/i] you're saying it. (i.e., it's actually talking about not gossiping, not telling perv jokes, etc.) And if cussing [i]is[/i] wrong, then what makes "darn" and "poop" any more virtuous or fit to speak?

I do, however, appreciate you backing up your beliefs with a verse. Nobody else that I've had this discussion with could, much less would.

[QUOTE=The Baronator][size=1]Perhaps the Adam and Eve story is true, and as we currently are, we are but a poor reflection of super-intelligent ancestors with three legs and numerous eyes.

I feel so retarded and deformed...[/QUOTE][/size][size=2]Now there's something to ponder.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]EDIT:[/size]
[size=2][quote name='Ganymede']Of course some of us children are hard headed and stubborn so He will continue to punish us until we understand what we do is wrong.[/quote] That's a bit of a skewed statement, but I'm too bored to go into why, lol.[/size]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]You missed it again.

It isn't all about the evidence. Go back and read what I said about logic again, and slower this time.

And do you have evidence that God doesn't exist? Sure, I guess. I haven't heard of any myself, but I will take your word on that. Wholeheartedly. However, there's also, I'm sure, real evidence that Atlantis exists. Lots of evidence, I'd venture to guess. Problem is, it doesn't. You get my drift?[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Aye, aye, I get it just fine. It's Faith vs Evidence, the age-old battle. You can't win againts faith, it's like bringing a nuclear bomb to fight an ant. [/COLOR]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
By the by, there is no evidence in Atlantis DIRECTLY. However, there is proof that the stories of Atlantis were based upon a city, which, if memory serves, was on the cost of Rome or Greece (I froget exactly) and it was swallowed whole when a tsunami struck it and, literally, sunk it below the sea. The Ruins were discovered a few years ago. The Illiad is another example of this. Illium (Which, if you didnt know, is the correct name for Troy, and was the inspiration for my name and for the name Homer used to describe the epic) did not really exist. However, a city (Most likely Pergamum, for Homer used that name on occasion) did exist exactly where Illium was said to stand and there are records of them betraying the Greek Cities (Of which Pergamum was until it turned coats and became an ally of the Hittites or somthing of that nature) and the Greeks attacked and conquered it. The Bible is, in my opinion, a much larger scale version of this same phenomenon. The Illiad, though based on real events, was blown out of preportion gloriously. The so-called Global Flood has recently been proven to be nothing but a massive flood around the Meditteranian (An earthquake took down a natural damn and created massive flooding) and that was blown out of preportion. I can go on and on and on, but my point is this; The Bible was a massive fairy-tale that ranks up there with the Illiad and Atlantis, the only difference is nooooooooooooooooooooobody got the joke.[/COLOR]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Who?]
Sorry, but the only reason I defended my beliefs aggressively is because it by all means looked like you were attacking them aggressively.[/QUOTE]


I'm not aggressive to the least, I'm actually quite amused at this moment. ;D

This thread is going way too fast for me to keep in the pace, btw. People are quoting each other criss-cross, and I'm not even sure whose points I'm arguing against... X/

But this thread will surely end like all religion-themed threads before it: some excessive offending, few flaming replies, and a lock/deletion from a mod. So much for the civilized debating... ;) I hope this doesn't go that far, though.

Bah, I'm all out of things to say! Well, not exactly, I'll say this more: no, I don't have evidence that a higher force doesn't exist, but I believe I have evidence that the Biblical God isn't the only true God - there are at least four billion people in the world who don't believe in Him (much more if you count the people who belong to a Christian Church just because they were born into it).

There were many religions before Christianity, and there will be many more after it. And guess what, they [I]all[/I] claim/claimed/will claim that their God/gods/deities/spirits are the authentic ones!

This leads back to the humane need to believe in something bigger and more powerful. Christianity is just one of the countless forms that this need appears in. I count myself one of those humans who don't feel the need, but I'm not saying I'm any better than the ones who do.

In real life I couldn't care less what people believe in, as long as they respect other people's beliefs and non-beliefs.

I know I haven't been too respectful in this thread, and I apologize, but the insults are things I wouldn't say to a true believer's face in the real world. This is internet, the Mecca of free speech, and here I tend to say aloud whatever comes to my mind. So I apologize again if I've offended anyone.

I'm off to bed now, as it's 4 AM in this corner of the world...

[John]

[quote name='Ilium][color=darkred']Aye, aye, I get it just fine. It's Faith vs Evidence, the age-old battle. You can't win againts faith, it's like bringing a nuclear bomb to fight an ant.[/quote][/color][color=black] You know, that's basically it. And instead of moping about how you can't debate faith, have you ever thought that maybe it's actually true?[/color]
[color=darkred]

[quote name='Illium']By the by, there is no evidence in Atlantis DIRECTLY.[/quote] [color=black]Ok, now give me some of your infallable evidence against God that [i]is[/i] direct.[/color]
[color=#000000][/color]
[/color][color=#000000][quote name='Sage']But this thread will surely end like all religion-themed threads before it: some excessive offending, few flaming replies, and a lock/deletion from a mod. So much for the civilized debating... ;)[/quote] Let the games begin! >=D (Actually, I may shuffle off pretty soon here, too.)[/color]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]Ok, now give me some of your infallable evidence against God that is direct.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Truthfully, there is no evidence DIRECTLY. There is, however, hurrendous amounts of evidence supporting that what he supposedly did WAS fake, plagerised, wholly made up, or hypocritical. Walking on water, thats damn impossible. And if it was supossedly Divine Intervention, why, exactly, has no such miracle occured during these times, where it could be properly recorded? There is evidence that no one, NO ONE, can be swallowed by a whale, much less survive the encounter. There is even evidence, using the Bible's own Fiary-Tail logic, that God himself is not the "One True God." As I've stated before, if the direct word of God is made up, than there is not even a shred of evidence that he does exist. If somone's standing on a bridge with no supports I don't need to throw boulders onto it to make it collapse. The Theory of God collapses in on itself. And if you say faith, well, ants cannot hold up bridges.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Sage']Bah, I'm all out of things to say! Well, not exactly, I'll say this more: no, I don't have evidence that a higher force doesn't exist, but I believe I have evidence that the Biblical God isn't the only true God - there are at least four billion people in the world who don't believe in Him (much more if you count the people who belong to a Christian Church just because they were born into it).[/quote]
[SIZE=1][B]Exactly.[/B] Problem solved. Let's lock this thread up and call it a night, ladies and gents.

But seriously, Sage speaks truth here, and I'm using this to make a [slightly] larger point. If 4 billion other people don't believe in Christ, but many have a faith, could it possibly mean we're all worshiping the same God? Of course, this 'God(s)' has been heavily affected by cultural differences, and as a result, He/She/They seem different from one another.

This is heavily apparent in Pagan religions, where people pray to Dieties of the land (Perhaps the Rain God if in an arid region, Sun God if in a cold one). The Egyptians are a good example as well -- they worship(ped) the Goddess of the Nile because that River provides everything for those people, so why not worship it? The Sun God, apparent in nearly all Pagan religions, is worshiped universally because of... it is something that keeps you warm, and shows up day after day -- why not worship it?

So, I think I've made my point, if not in a roundabout fashion. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1][B]Exactly.[/B] Problem solved. Let's lock this thread up and call it a night, ladies and gents.
.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Ahh comon, it's all in good fun. Debates on the net never get anywhere, but they are DAMN fun if your into them.[/COLOR]

[John]

[quote name='Ilium][color=darkred']Truthfully, there is no evidence DIRECTLY.[/quote] [color=black]Which (I feel repetetive saying this) is exactly the point I was trying to make. No matter how many "mountains of evidence" you have, you still can't disprove God. As for your supporting evidence...[/color][/color]

[color=darkred][quote name='Ilium']There is, however, hurrendous amounts of evidence supporting that what he supposedly did WAS fake, plagerised, wholly made up, or hypocritical. Walking on water, thats damn impossible. And if it was supossedly Divine Intervention, why, exactly, has no such miracle occured during these times, where it could be properly recorded? There is evidence that no one, NO ONE, can be swallowed by a whale, much less survive the encounter. There is even evidence, using the Bible's own Fiary-Tail logic, that God himself is not the "One True God." As I've stated before, if the direct word of God is made up, than there is not even a shred of evidence that he does exist. If somone's standing on a bridge with no supports I don't need to throw boulders onto it to make it collapse. The Theory of God collapses in on itself. And if you say faith, well, ants cannot hold up bridges.[/color][/quote] First off, I'm going to go ahead and give up on everything I've been saying about logic, evidence and its relation to God and Christianity. You haven't picked up on it yet, and I suppose you're not going to.

First off, it's obvious that I will defend those events as Divine Intervention, so if you want to talk about that you're going to have to give something better than "thats damn impossible". (And even so, there are records of people being swallowed by whales and living. But that's irrelevant now, anyway.)

As for why no miracles have happened in this day and age, it's mostly due to the fact that the world was in a lot worse shape back then than it is now. But it'll get worse again, so it's written, and the miracles will happen again.

And elaborate on this "not the One True God" thing for me.

EDIT:
[quote name='Ilium][color=#8b0000]Ahh comon, it's all in good fun. Debates on the net never get anywhere, but they are DAMN fun if your into them.[/color'][color=black][/quote] That's the first thing I've agreed with you on all night, lol.[/color]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
And elaborate on this "not the One True God" thing for me.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

In the Bible, it says that some obscure prophet or other (Maybe Abraham or somone of that creed) confronted the Pharoah og Egypt, and he tried to convince him of the existence and power of his god. The Pharaoh's two priests cast down their staves and, ta da, two snakes. Than the prophet cast down his stave and created a bigger snake which supposedly ate those two. Now, how do you explain those Priests being able to create those snakes unless by the aid of another diety(ies)? Which one is more powerful isnt the question right now, that is the Word of God himself saying that he is not the only god. That is, by the Biblical logic, infallable proof that there is more than one God. Therefore, if you take the Bible seriously, you also believe that there is more than one God. If God is hypocritical about that, that means his word is not infallable, and therefore we can deduce that God himself is in fact either lieing to us or false entirly. I choose to belive the more rational, which is the latter.[/COLOR]

[John]

[quote name='Ilium][color=darkred']In the Bible, it says that some obscure prophet or other (Maybe Abraham or somone of that creed) confronted the Pharoah og Egypt, and he tried to convince him of the existence and power of his god. The Pharaoh's two priests cast down their staves and, ta da, two snakes. Than the prophet cast down his stave and created a bigger snake which supposedly ate those two. Now, how do you explain those Priests being able to create those snakes unless by the aid of another diety(ies)? Which one is more powerful isnt the question right now, that is the Word of God himself saying that he is not the only god. That is, by the Biblical logic, infallable proof that there is more than one God. Therefore, if you take the Bible seriously, you also believe that there is more than one God. If God is hypocritical about that, that means his word is not infallable, and therefore we can deduce that God himself is in fact either lieing to us or false entirly. I choose to belive the more rational, which is the latter.[/color][/quote] You're going to scoff at this one, of course, but it was Satan. Sure, he doesn't hold a candle to God's power, but often God will let Satan intervene and affect situations anywhere from this extent to simply tempting people. He (God) does this often as a test of faith, or - less often - as punishment. (Ganymede's take on punishment, mind you, was a little over-the-edge.)

I'm just going to leave this debate at that for tonight. I'll see if I can get back on tomorrow, assuming this thing isn't dead by then.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Who?]You're going to scoff at this one, of course, but it was Satan. Sure, he doesn't hold a candle to God's power, but often God will let Satan intervene and affect situations anywhere from this extent to simply tempting people. He (God) does this often as a test of faith, or - less often - as punishment. (Ganymede's take on punishment, mind you, was a little over-the-edge.)

I'm just going to leave this debate at that for tonight. I'll see if I can get back on tomorrow, assuming this thing isn't dead by then.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Still, this means that there is another god, even if it's an evil one. If there's another god why can't there be a third one? Or even a fourth? It has to be mono-theistic or poly-theistic. If it is in fact polytheistic, which this seems to suggest, than the whole "One True God" thing is also fake and that still means that Christianity is in fact Polytheistic. If God was lieing about that than he is far from imfallable, and in fact, as I stated before, a hyporite.[/COLOR]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='duStAnDteArS']. God loves you and will give you evrythign you could ever want and need .[/quote]

[color=darkviolet]Need? Well, maybe except that I [i]need[/i] a job that gets the bills paid and while doing magick to help me find a job will get the ball rolling, I won't get a job unless I get off my butt and look. That's why the saying 'God helps those who help themselves' is so true.

As for want, well, I want this one guy at work.... Okay bad example, and I [i]could[/i] do magick to get him, but it would be wrong since I'd be messing with free will. And then I'd get some really bad kharmic retribution which would suck.

Oh and while I brought up work I got into an infamous religion discussion today because this one guy who was starting with me said he was going to Hell. I made the mistake (?) of saying I didn't believe in Hell, I believe in kharmic retribution because I'm not Christian I'm Wiccan This one lady said (and I quote) 'Well, that religion doesn't exist. I teach social studies (big *u**i** deal, you have a teaching degree) and we talk about all religions but that one. So it's not real.'

:rolleyes: I said, Jamie Paganism is one of the oldest known religions, it [i] is [/i] real and I practice it. She kept insisting it wasn't real and looking at me like I'm stupid (because trust me most people there think I'm an idiot) then this other guy (I mentioned him in the second paragraph hint) said that I can believe whatever I want, it doesn't matter what someone else is saying and then he handed me a broom. I told him that i wished that myth was real.

I plan on bringing one of my books on paganism to work on Monday. If Jamie wants to start on religion again I'll just tell her to read. Because she's the idiot with the teaching certificate, not me.[/color]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]

Oh and while I brought up work I got into an infamous religion discussion today because this one guy who was starting with me said he was going to Hell. I made the mistake (?) of saying I didn't believe in Hell, I believe in kharmic retribution because I'm not Christian I'm Wiccan This one lady said (and I quote) 'Well, that religion doesn't exist. I teach social studies (big *u**i** deal, you have a teaching degree) and we talk about all religions but that one. So it's not real.'

:rolleyes: I said, Jamie Paganism is one of the oldest known religions, it [i] is [/i] real and I practice it. She kept insisting it wasn't real and looking at me like I'm stupid (because trust me most people there think I'm an idiot) then this other guy (I mentioned him in the second paragraph hint) said that I can believe whatever I want, it doesn't matter what someone else is saying and then he handed me a broom. I told him that i wished that myth was real.

I plan on bringing one of my books on paganism to work on Monday. If Jamie wants to start on religion again I'll just tell her to read. Because she's the idiot with the teaching certificate, not me.[/color][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Wow, she didn't believe Wiccan was a real religion just because she taught Religious Studies etc? How far up your *** do you have to be...

Correct me if I'm wrong (I don't claim to be an expert on Wiccan, though other 'Paganisms' are very ineresting to me) but don't Wiccan believe more in a supernatural energy in all things? Not so much the worship of a god as in the belif of the supernatural, correct? I think that the woman may have had a bit of a point, though. It's not really 'Religion' so much as it's spirituality, as odd and inconsequential that may seem.[/COLOR]