Christian ... or Not?

[Sara]

[color=#6699cc]Please remember to [b]keep things civil[/b]. Thank you.

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Ask your RE teacher how the two Egyptian priests managed to turn their staves into snakes, even if they were supposedly eaten by the bigger one. The only explanation, by the bibles on logic, is that there are more G(g)od(s) than just the supposedly almighty one. That's my personal favourite, because, if you believe the bible, that means that you believe in more than one god, therefore making you both a pagan and a devout which is a bit of a paradox. I usually get a kick out of it.[/COLOR][/quote]Ah, Who? got to this just before I did.

In Exodus, Aaron (brother of Moses) goes before Pharoah, and his staff turns into a snake. My Bible says that "the Egyptian magicians did the same thing by their secret arts."

I suppose you can look at this any way you'd like. And there are plenty of places in the Bible where you can point and say, "Surely [i]this[/i] contradicts itself!" But rest assured that in the thousands of years that there have been followers of the Hebrew and Christian scriptures, someone has come up with an explanation for it.

In this case, Christians do not deny that there are other supernatural beings. Angels and Demons (Dan Brown, eat your heart out), anyone? The other gods, on the occasions that they do anything, are accepted as being outlets of the devil or other demons. One all-powerful God, many lesser beings/servants. God and the devil are not equals, God is always greater.

-----

[QUOTE=Sage]Sure, you can explain everything by that... ;P It's the same as "the wizard did it!"

Your faith is a practical little thing, isn't it? It takes away all needs to think for yourself, or actually wonder about anything ever. Simple solution to simple people, I say...[/QUOTE]

It's true that many people who are raised Christian (such as myself) are not encouraged to think for themselves in the way that you are saying. Believe me, though, when I say that, Christian or not, little kids ask questions. :) It is a matter of what they given as answers that influences how they look at the world.

I do find it rather offensive that you would imply that faith is a simple answer to life's problems and questions. I can tell you--it's a downright [i]sucky[/i] answer. The questions you may ask a Christian about his faith--"Why do you believe this? How can you believe that this happened? Science has proved, is proving, and [i]will prove again[/i] that this cannot have happened!"--These are questions we ask ourselves, as well. And if you find the answer hard to swallow, don't you think that someone [i]who is staking their eternal fate on it[/i] would find it moreso?

The questions are there. The disbelief is there. The easy answer is [i]not[/i] "because he's [i]God[/i]." It is [i]incredibly[/i] hard for an intelligent, thinking person, to answer a question with, "I don't know. But he's God, and he can do it."

But that, really, is what I see faith as. Do I have that "strong" a faith? No. Right now, I do not. I want answers, I want proof. And I don't have it. And it troubles me.

Do I respect people who can believe the impossible? Yeah. I don't always admire them. But I do respect their decision and their choice, and I envy their certainty in life. [/color]

[Ganymede]

OMG!!! I LOVE THIS!!!! THIS IS SOOOOOO MUCH FUN!!! TO BE CHALLENGED!!!

Well to start off I will quote an amazingly accurate quote!

[QUOTE]What you must realize, Ganymede, is that you simply can't convert me, or Ilium, or Kamuro, or any of us who admits being an atheist, just as we can't convert you. You try to sound convincing, and I bet to your ear you do, but to me you sound just as "brainwashed" as dustandtears (meaning that you repeat words that are taught to you).[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]We don't share the same beliefs, although we both have strong trust in ours, and getting another person with strong beliefs to change them is quite impossible. So I'm not going to even try. The reason I keep replying to this thread is that I simply find it entertaining. Debating is fun, although it rarely gets you anywhere.[/QUOTE]

Okay!!! Now!! I totally and completely agree with you here, on how us who have complete faith in what we believe will probably NEVER convert each other. I'm so glad that you pointed this out, I should have done it myself. I didn't mean to sound like I was converting you, I was just mearly started writing freakishly fast to join in on this great topic!

As for me sounding like dustandtears ((?? never heard this one....well learn something new everyday)) Think about what schools do. If you say that we christians are all spouting stuff that has been pounded into our tiny brains, you can say the same about any learning institution and or teaching facility. Sigh...you are truely right in saying this will get us absolutely no where, ahhh well it sure beats sleeping.

Hummm another little quote I found interesting would be....

[QUOTE]Yet, pointing to my first snarky comment, I must wonder your perspective of the world. You aren't even repeating the "God gave us free will"-mantra, you're going totally Old Testament! God punishes, God makes you pay until you learn, God causes bad things to happen so we'd respect Him! You are quite the gleamy-eyed zealot, aren't you?[/QUOTE]

[QUOTE]Like we humans are mere toys to this one almighty presence, that does what he likes to us. Well, I think you're utterly, horribly mistaken. People do have free will, but it wasn't "granted" to us. We are as free as the bird in the sky or the ant in the dust, because we are like them! A species of animals, highly developed and on top of the evolution, but still animals.[/QUOTE]

Now for this...Who ever said that I didn't believe God gave us free will? Its stated it clearly in the bible.....can't think of the verse but yeah. He did give us free will to choose. That to us christians is one of the great miracles. He let us choose him, he let us make our own choice. What good would it do our spirit if he MADE us accept Him. We choose to go through the hardships because we love Him. Thats really the least we can do for all he's done for us.

As for us being like animals....we are very similar to animals yes....but we are the only living beings who can reason. Sure a monkey or a dog can communicate to you in some way or form, But can they tell you whats right and wrong? Can they explain to you what God is?.......this little thing doesn't really much sense the way I put it....Oh well next topic...

For that Old testament comment....its not just in the old testament that God punishes. And God doesn't punish us just so that we respect Him, he does it so that we love Him, and fear Him. ANd thats not fear in the normal sense of fear.

Lets see there was another quote here somewhere....ahh yes...

[QUOTE]You cannot take the bible literally. If you took the bible, word for word, literally, you yourself would be both Pagan (For the belif there is more than just God, see my post about the Egyptian Priests) and devout. The Bible is a giant paradox of hypocrisy and other such falseties.[/QUOTE]

Yes you are right in some aspect. No you can't really take the bible litterally on everything in it....I never said you should. Like for instance: Mark 12 : 41-43

"41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. 42 And many who were rich put in much.Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His deciples to Himself and said to them, "[I]Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;"[/I]

Of course the widow didn't litterally give more than all the people who gave, it was the symbol that she faithfully gave God all she had, trusting in Him to take care of her. AKA faith.

But God doesn't give only these kinds of statements, like in verse I posted about Swearing

" But now you yourselves are to putt off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, FILTHY LANGUAGE out of your mouth."

It is a direct commandment. These things are NOT of ME therefore you shall cast them away from you. Thats what He is saying.

Okay and one last quote to debate would be...

[QUOTE]Care to expand on this? Maybe some example of divine intervention, directly or indirectly. Purely out of curiosity, I want to see somthing that is a clear example that it is in fact some devine being and not just some normal occurance (Better known as Life) [/QUOTE]

My experiences aren't all OMG!! THATS A MIRACLE!! Kind of thing, Its more like and answering of prayers. I'm sure you would find something at fault in my telling you some of the things that happened to me, but tell you I will.

There was this company called The Glory and the Fire that was coming to our church. They are sort of acting missionaries that go to churches around the world doing a play about the realities of Heaven and Hell. They have about four crew members they send, and they recruit people form the churches they stay at.

Well I think it was a week before they were supposed to come, when I went to Sunday night church. They happened to have communion that night, So I go up with My grandma and her husband, and they asked me If I wanted them to pray for any special needs. I decided that I was going to ask for them to pray about my Timid nature, to ask for boldness and certainty in God's will for me, I also asked as I always do for my family to be saved. Everything went as it usually did, little shaking and overwhelming emotions. So I sat down in my usual pew and thought over what I had asked for, and I suddenly realized that God had always given me boldness, and I only needed to act on it. Soooooooo, I decided to do something I had never ever done in the history of my going to church. I decided to sign up for the play that was coming.

As usual everybody who knew me was estatic and I quickly retreat away from them before the squeezed me to death. Now a week later, I'm in the sunday morning sevice, its time for tithe and offerings, so I rummage around in my purse looking for a couple of dollars ( Note: I don't have a job and the only money I get is from my mom for the chores I do, which comes out to about $20 a month. Tithes is 10% of your income for those who don't know). Unfortunately all I have in a twenty....so I'm debating should I give what I have now or wait till next Sunday, which proabably by the time iut comes the money will be spent and gone. So I decide to do the impulsive thing and I gave it all.

So now its Sunday night of the next Sunday, our first performance of the play. I had kind of tricked my family into coming by being in the play in the first place, because they wouldn't have come if I didn't. Not that it affected my decision in the beginning. Anyways, I was an angel, I had to stand on stage ALL hour and a half of the play, and we finally get to leave when our pastor comes up on stage and does the altar call ( where they call for those who want to be saved). The angel have to go off stage ang get their costumes off then come back into the sanctuary to help. Well them moment I opened the door to the sanctuary guess what I saw? Yep you're right, my parents and my sister are all up front by the stage having the paster do the sinners prayer with them. Now I'm estatic!!! I mean giggly, bouncy, the works. After they get done.....they mysteriously say they have a surprise for me.....( you might not really find this relavent but it means a lot to me, on how God rewards the faithful) So they take me outside and present to me......a car. My very first car. ANd that is the end of my story.

Now I know that I'm gonna get some "oh thats totally stupid" or "oh that can be explained away by it being a coincedence." But if you truely think about it ( with your spirit NOT your logic) Its very insterestin that all this great stuff happened to me all at once. Never in my life had it happened to me before. To me it was my faith in God, rewarding me for being faithful in my tithes: taking that step into an environment that was uncomfortable, but was something that God wanted me to do; and also my faith in God answering my prayers.

Anyways now that I've told you all WAY to much about my self, let the debates begin!!!

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Just before I start a chew into this one... I'm going to come off as an asshole. I don't mean to convert you, I just live for debating, so please; don't be offened, just enjoy the spirit of the debat, eh?[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
Yes you are right in some aspect. No you can't really take the bible litterally on everything in it....I never said you should. Like for instance: Mark 12 : 41-43

"41 Now Jesus sat opposite the treasury and saw how the people put money into the treasury. 42 And many who were rich put in much.Then one poor widow came and threw in two mites, which make a quadrans. 43 So He called His deciples to Himself and said to them, "Assuredly, I say to you that this poor widow has put in more than all those who have given to the treasury;"

Of course the widow didn't litterally give more than all the people who gave, it was the symbol that she faithfully gave God all she had, trusting in Him to take care of her. AKA faith.

But God doesn't give only these kinds of statements, like in verse I posted about Swearing

" But now you yourselves are to putt off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, FILTHY LANGUAGE out of your mouth."

It is a direct commandment. These things are NOT of ME therefore you shall cast them away from you. Thats what He is saying.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Aye, I'm aware of this that not everything can be taken literally (Maybe I phrased it wrong; what I meant is that just because the bible says it does not make it the law) and in a way the passage you qouted makes literal sense; The Rich people gave gold, maybe 1% or somthing of what they owned, whereas the poor woman gave her mits, which were somthing like 50% of her ownings. Taken this way, she did in fact contribute more than all the rich people in a quasi-literal sense...[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
Well I think it was a week before they were supposed to come, when I went to Sunday night church. They happened to have communion that night, So I go up with My grandma and her husband, and they asked me If I wanted them to pray for any special needs. I decided that I was going to ask for them to pray about my Timid nature, to ask for boldness and certainty in God's will for me, I also asked as I always do for my family to be saved. Everything went as it usually did, little shaking and overwhelming emotions. So I sat down in my usual pew and thought over what I had asked for, and I suddenly realized that God had always given me boldness, and I only needed to act on it. Soooooooo, I decided to do something I had never ever done in the history of my going to church. I decided to sign up for the play that was coming.

As usual everybody who knew me was estatic and I quickly retreat away from them before the squeezed me to death. Now a week later, I'm in the sunday morning sevice, its time for tithe and offerings, so I rummage around in my purse looking for a couple of dollars ( Note: I don't have a job and the only money I get is from my mom for the chores I do, which comes out to about $20 a month. Tithes is 10% of your income for those who don't know). Unfortunately all I have in a twenty....so I'm debating should I give what I have now or wait till next Sunday, which proabably by the time iut comes the money will be spent and gone. So I decide to do the impulsive thing and I gave it all.

As usual everybody who knew me was estatic and I quickly retreat away from them before the squeezed me to death. Now a week later, I'm in the sunday morning sevice, its time for tithe and offerings, so I rummage around in my purse looking for a couple of dollars ( Note: I don't have a job and the only money I get is from my mom for the chores I do, which comes out to about $20 a month. Tithes is 10% of your income for those who don't know). Unfortunately all I have in a twenty....so I'm debating should I give what I have now or wait till next Sunday, which proabably by the time iut comes the money will be spent and gone. So I decide to do the impulsive thing and I gave it all.

So now its Sunday night of the next Sunday, our first performance of the play. I had kind of tricked my family into coming by being in the play in the first place, because they wouldn't have come if I didn't. Not that it affected my decision in the beginning. Anyways, I was an angel, I had to stand on stage ALL hour and a half of the play, and we finally get to leave when our pastor comes up on stage and does the altar call ( where they call for those who want to be saved). The angel have to go off stage ang get their costumes off then come back into the sanctuary to help. Well them moment I opened the door to the sanctuary guess what I saw? Yep you're right, my parents and my sister are all up front by the stage having the paster do the sinners prayer with them. Now I'm estatic!!! I mean giggly, bouncy, the works. After they get done.....they mysteriously say they have a surprise for me.....( you might not really find this relavent but it means a lot to me, on how God rewards the faithful) So they take me outside and present to me......a car. My very first car. ANd that is the end of my story.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Do you ever wonder if it was not in fact God who gave you this courage? That, perhaps, because you prayed to him you (Possibly on a subconcious level) wanted to believe so much that you... well, Grew Up? I know how corny it sounds, but part of growing up is learning to give and learning to take risks and learning to be a better person, and your parents (In all their wisdom) noticed this and realized that you were no longer a timid little girl; that you were ready for things, like your first car. That's just a theory, and it seems just as possible as an answered prayer.

But, hey, again I'm not here to convert you; merely to raise questions in the spirit of debate. So let's duke it out, loser picks up the 2-4. Sound fun? Good.[/COLOR]

[Ganymede]

LOL Indeed ...beers...

Anyways. First things first. Believe me when I say I have acted pretty much the same, moral wise, for all my life. You can consider me a goddie two-shoes and all that good stuff, and don't worry I won't be offended because thats what I am, and thats what I like to be.

Okay lets see...first quote of the day....

[QUOTE]Aye, I'm aware of this that not everything can be taken literally (Maybe I phrased it wrong; what I meant is that just because the bible says it does not make it the law) and in a way the passage you qouted makes literal sense; The Rich people gave gold, maybe 1% or somthing of what they owned, whereas the poor woman gave her mits, which were somthing like 50% of her ownings. Taken this way, she did in fact contribute more than all the rich people in a quasi-literal sense...[/QUOTE]

Now to point out a certain sentance. "....just becasue the bible says it does not make it the law..." LOL to qoute you Ilium...Aye, you are right in a sense there. But the laws you speak of would be the worldly laws. Not all people see the sense in the laws God gives, they are too "worldy" as we say to be held accountable to them. You would have to believe that God is the father and creater of all things, and He loves us and takes care of us. And as you so clearly stated before you don't so I don't expect you to understand the guilt invoved when you breach the laws of God.

But I would like to ask you, morally speaking, what would it hurt to be a good person, who doesn't talk bad and offends people, who doesn't hate their enemies, becasue they are just like you, they hurt, they have problems? why is it so hard for people to treat people with kindness, helping them like they are your brother, be loving and helpfull? Why is it so hard to treat people fairly, and justly? WHy is it thought that being generous and merciful is being weak? WHy is it thought that it is okay that people should immitate people that do some of the worst atrocities in this world? Why is it thought that its okay to cheat lie and steal from a neighbor because you have nothing and they have too much?WHy is it thought a weakness to rely on someone who loves you so much that He gives up His life for you?

I have as many questions as you do when it comes down to it. I don't understand everything, I don't have an answer to every debate. But what I understand is this, God tells me to do good things. He is really like a father. Christianity is not all about fear and rules and regulations. But about goodness and kindness and self control, gentleness, generosity and all those good things. But its foundation is love. Thats it love. You may not know why things happen, you may not know why God doesn't take the pain away right now, you don't know why he doesn't answer your prayers right away. But all that you really have to know is God is there and He loves you enough to save you from your bad fate. Christianit is not logical, its not practical, its not anything that this world will ever understand. I can explain and explain away my experiences to people, but they won't truely understand until they have felt their burdens lifted from them when they prayed that they couldn't stand them anymore, or when their all their worries are lifted and you're left with peace and tranquility. You have to experience God and not be doubtful of what He tells you. The christianity that God talks about in the bible is not a religion, because religions can become sin. It is a relationship with God.

Arg...my head... too much heavy thinking...well anyways next quote.....

[QUOTE]Do you ever wonder if it was not in fact God who gave you this courage? That, perhaps, because you prayed to him you (Possibly on a subconcious level) wanted to believe so much that you... well, Grew Up? I know how corny it sounds, but part of growing up is learning to give and learning to take risks and learning to be a better person, and your parents (In all their wisdom) noticed this and realized that you were no longer a timid little girl; that you were ready for things, like your first car. That's just a theory, and it seems just as possible as an answered prayer. [/QUOTE]

Okay....its kind of funny that you would mention the sub-conscious mind, because that is what we are learning about in my Sunday school class. Now...lets see.....according to God the sub-conscious mind in part of the world, it is the dead person that you used to be, before you were born again. It is your baser instincts. Now since things of God cannot be things of the world, because Satan is the god of the world. (I know I suck at explaining things so bear with me) SO things of Satan cannot be things of God. So no I do not think my "subconscious mind" did this, but I do believe it was my conscience, also known as the Holy Spirit who showed me what to do. Then I had to CHOOSE to act on it, which I did. :animeswea ( sorry just had to get that in there)

ANd another thing...I seriously do love my parents to death, but they wouldn't notice something like that if it hit them in the face. They really don't care about my "religious ways". The only thing they really ask is why didn't I go to church if I missed a Sunday, and thats only because that it is out of character for me not to go......sigh....gah....my explinations are so totally wacked sometimes...if I make no sense...believe me...its normal.

Well by all means chew away!!!

Ps: A very humble sorry if I'm too long winded.... :animeswea ...just can't stop once I'm started!

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
I have as many questions as you do when it comes down to it. I don't understand everything, I don't have an answer to every debate. But what I understand is this, God tells me to do good things. He is really like a father. Christianity is not all about fear and rules and regulations. But about goodness and kindness and self control, gentleness, generosity and all those good things. But its foundation is love. Thats it love. You may not know why things happen, you may not know why God doesn't take the pain away right now, you don't know why he doesn't answer your prayers right away. But all that you really have to know is God is there and He loves you enough to save you from your bad fate. Christianit is not logical, its not practical, its not anything that this world will ever understand. I can explain and explain away my experiences to people, but they won't truely understand until they have felt their burdens lifted from them when they prayed that they couldn't stand them anymore, or when their all their worries are lifted and you're left with peace and tranquility. You have to experience God and not be doubtful of what He tells you. The christianity that God talks about in the bible is not a religion, because religions can become sin. It is a relationship with God.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Based on love? Peace? Know, I think that the hundreds of thousands that died in the Crusades, Muslim and Christian both, they weren't exactly acting out a peaceful God's will. What about the victims of the Spanish Inquisition? The most neferious torturmen of the age, and they did everything in the name of God. Or how about the Salem Witch Trials? The burnings all through Europe? The Zulu (and other African tribes, aswell) weren'tt exactly thinking "Wow these are some real peaceful fellows" as the British cut them down because they were pagans. The Jews (Who suffered constantly all over Christendom) sure wouldn't call it a religion of peace.

What's my point? My point is that for every life helped by Christianity, another was ended. For every civilization Christianity helped to bring into this world, another was snuffed out. I've seen enough Acts of God to formulate my own opinions.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
Okay....its kind of funny that you would mention the sub-conscious mind, because that is what we are learning about in my Sunday school class. Now...lets see.....according to God the sub-conscious mind in part of the world, it is the dead person that you used to be, before you were born again. It is your baser instincts. Now since things of God cannot be things of the world, because Satan is the god of the world. (I know I suck at explaining things so bear with me) SO things of Satan cannot be things of God. So no I do not think my "subconscious mind" did this, but I do believe it was my conscience, also known as the Holy Spirit who showed me what to do. Then I had to CHOOSE to act on it, which I did. ( sorry just had to get that in there) [/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Did you know that the Conscience literally IS your subcontious mind? They are one in the same. Oh, and I wasn't aware people were born again in Christianity... I thought that it was all Sherry and Giggles until the Rapture or somesuch. What kind of God would take people from paradise and thrust them back into this piece of crap.
[/COLOR]

And finally...
[QUOTE]
But I would like to ask you, morally speaking, what would it hurt to be a good person, who doesn't talk bad and offends people, who doesn't hate their enemies, becasue they are just like you, they hurt, they have problems? why is it so hard for people to treat people with kindness, helping them like they are your brother, be loving and helpfull? Why is it so hard to treat people fairly, and justly? WHy is it thought that being generous and merciful is being weak? WHy is it thought that it is okay that people should immitate people that do some of the worst atrocities in this world? Why is it thought that its okay to cheat lie and steal from a neighbor because you have nothing and they have too much?WHy is it thought a weakness to rely on someone who loves you so much that He gives up His life for you?[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

What does that have to do with Religion? I've met Protestents and Catholics, Muslims and Sikh, Pagans and (Believe or not) devout followers of the Force (Ya, as in Star Wars) I've met Scientologists and I've met Odinists. I've met a lot of athiests. Believe it or not, some people were complete ********. Some people were incredibly nice. This has nothing to do with religion. It's human nature to vary from person to person and Religion doesn't have a big impact. By the by, if you ever meet a Scientologist, try not to engage in conversation. They are, literally, the most insane-sounding human beings to walk the earth with the possible exception of Neo-Conservatives.[/COLOR]

[Minako]

My parents are aetheist (sp?). My father is OK with it, but my mom verbally [I]dislikes[/I] Christianity. My parents stuck me in a Lutheran school when I was in 4th grade because my public school 3rd grade teacher said that girls don't need to know math. :animeangr My parents' reasoning was that they had gone to a Lutheran school when they were kids. Now this is in Finland where the schools teach the Lutheran religion (it is the religion of Finland). During my time at my grade school, I thought that just saying you believed was enough, so I never really acted on it. I was "religious" until I was a Junior in High School. (I go to a Lutheran High school too..). When I was a Junior, I was angry at my parents, angry at the world, and angry at God that He deserted me. I then was lent a book about martyrs. I read it and I wondered [I]"HOW could they be actually OK with dying? They were almost... [B]happy[/B].[/I] I then started asking questions. I read the Bible, I read a certain devotion book, and my questions were answered. I then made a deal with God. (since I was a foreign exchange student) I told Him, if you REALLY want me to believe, now I meant all or nothing, bring my dad here *insert country here* . Guess what? [B]He did.[/B] I then realized that it was real. I had [B]physical proof[/B] that God was there, and He cared for me. I then became a [I]real[/I] Christian. Yes, I haven't been a very GOOD christian lately (I have such a potty-mouth! :animeswea ), but I'm trying to keep up my end of the deal.

There also where some other out-of-body experiences, but I won't bore you with my stories. ;)

[Orcus]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1][B]Exactly.[/B] Problem solved. Let's lock this thread up and call it a night, ladies and gents.

But seriously, Sage speaks truth here, and I'm using this to make a [slightly] larger point. If 4 billion other people don't believe in Christ, but many have a faith, could it possibly mean we're all worshiping the same God? Of course, this 'God(s)' has been heavily affected by cultural differences, and as a result, He/She/They seem different from one another.

This is heavily apparent in Pagan religions, where people pray to Dieties of the land (Perhaps the Rain God if in an arid region, Sun God if in a cold one). The Egyptians are a good example as well -- they worship(ped) the Goddess of the Nile because that River provides everything for those people, so why not worship it? The Sun God, apparent in nearly all Pagan religions, is worshiped universally because of... it is something that keeps you warm, and shows up day after day -- why not worship it?

So, I think I've made my point, if not in a roundabout fashion. I hope you understand where I'm coming from.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[color=#993300][SIZE=1]I quite liked what Retri said. It's nice to know there are others who see things in a similair fashion as I do. Now for me to jump into this conversation from my view. I love having these types of conversations. *cracks neck* I think I'll try and further strengthen his point.[/SIZE][/color]

[quote name='Retribution][SIZE=1]But seriously, Sage speaks truth here, and I'm using this to make a [slightly'] larger point. If 4 billion other people don't believe in Christ, but many have a faith, could it possibly mean we're all worshiping the same God? Of course, this 'God(s)' has been heavily affected by cultural differences, and as a result, He/She/They seem different from one another.[/size][/quote]

[color=#993300][SIZE=1]Perfectly worded, Retri. I would, however, like to elaborate as I see it. There are, indeed, over 4 billion people in the world who belong to different religions, hold different views and worship different gods. Each religion believes, in one way or another, in a "God" or otherworldy force or deity that leads us through our lives. Now, even though we belong to different religions, those of the same religion do not eactly believe in the same God. Let me explain.

We all think of God/Otherworldy forces/deities differently. Every one of us has a different perception from the man/woman next to us, even if we are being told the same thing. Christians, I believe, are taught that [I]he[/I] is a ever-present force in our lives that guides us through each day. That [I]he[/I] is a loving deity that watches over us and cares for us all. Now, one person may imagine in their minds a smiling man with outstretched arms in a white robe, but others see God as being of energy, with no shape, or even as every living creature combined into deity. God is often portrayed as a male figure, though some would argue that God is more of a feminine being. Creation being a feminine trait and what not. It all depends on who's mind you're looking at it from.

Cuture and condition as well influence are beliefs in otherworldy forces.[/SIZE][/color]

[quote name='Retribution][SIZE=1']This is heavily apparent in Pagan religions, where people pray to Dieties of the land (Perhaps the Rain God if in an arid region, Sun God if in a cold one). The Egyptians are a good example as well -- they worship(ped) the Goddess of the Nile because that River provides everything for those people, so why not worship it? The Sun God, apparent in nearly all Pagan religions, is worshiped universally because of... it is something that keeps you warm, and shows up day after day -- why not worship it?[/quote][/size]

[color=#993300][SIZE=1]I, presonally, am a mythology buff, and love to study the gods of the Romans, Greeks, Egyptians, and Norsemen. I've many a times heard a theory about mythology, and I quite agree with it. The race of man creates stories, Gods, to explain the reasons that things occur. It helps us to understand everything. And if we can attribute a figure to our surrondings, it is easier to show appreciation to and for what we are provided.

The Bible, itself, could be considered mythology. Such stories, like those of Daniel and the lions and David VS Goliath, are very similair to stories in mythology. Great heroes who go against great odds with the help of an otherworldy force that protects and guides them. And how are we to know that the Gods that guided Perseus weren't the same as the God who led David against Goliath? Now I know that the bible has historical referencing and mythology are mere stories...but the Bible was written by [I]men[/I]. We are known to manipulate things to our liking, to better suit us.

Religion is a contradiction in itself, anyway. Those who are taught to be tolerant of thers and to respect and love each other fight wars because, seeing as their enemies believe in something different, they are marked as [B]hethens[/B]. Pagans faced such torment. There symbols were warped an lost their meaning. The pentagram, which stood for the unity of nature, the balance of the five elements, was turned into the devils symbol. Poesidens tident was turned into the devils staff. One of their gods took form of a goat, and thus they portrayed the devil as having hooves. Which is completely ridiculous, because many christian symbols originated as Pagan symbols.

Oh, please chew away. ^.^[/SIZE][/color]

[Ganymede]

Humm..interesting interesting....it seems as if this isn't playful banter any more. Or is that just me and my usual ditsy blondness?

Well lets see...quotes quotes and more quotes....

[QUOTE]Based on love? Peace? Know, I think that the hundreds of thousands that died in the Crusades, Muslim and Christian both, they weren't exactly acting out a peaceful God's will. What about the victims of the Spanish Inquisition? The most neferious torturmen of the age, and they did everything in the name of God. Or how about the Salem Witch Trials? The burnings all through Europe? The Zulu (and other African tribes, aswell) weren'tt exactly thinking "Wow these are some real peaceful fellows" as the British cut them down because they were pagans. The Jews (Who suffered constantly all over Christendom) sure wouldn't call it a religion of peace.[/QUOTE]

Okay part of those were indeed...bad but some were good. If you ever read the bible you would know that there where indeed wars, and God had orchestrated them himself, I unfortunately cannot say if any of these were orchestrated by God or man, because I truelly do not have an indepth knowledge of them, and I would not want to say something that is not true. But I know a little about the Spanish Inquisition....well not much really....I know that they tortured and killed people that didn't believe in their religion. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that these people were wrong in doing that, that is NOT something of God. It is wrong to force relgion on an unbeliever, so the bible says. The witch trials are another of those. It was wrong of those people to kill the suspected witches, it was wrong of them to kill them at all, even if they were witches, but their superstitious ways got the best of them and led them into sin. ( superstition is not of God). To kill innocent people who cannot defend themselves is always a wrong thing....UNLESS God instructed you to. Like with Abraham and Isacc. God told Abraham ( at least I think its Abraham....I might be wrong about that name so don't hold it against me) to sacrifice Isacc instead of a lamb. ANd since Abraham was going to obey God's command HE spared Isacc's life. It was sort of a test of Abraham's faith in God.

According to God's word you are to immitate Jesus's life. Since he NEVER sinned you are to do your best to not sin either. As for Christianity being the cause of death, you are right that people did do those things in God's name, but you should know by now, living in this day and age as we do, that what people may claim themselves to be isn't always the truth. But there are those people who truely believe they are doing God's will when they are not. As I said waaaaay before, people make mistakes, they are fooled into thinking things that aren't true. Its part of being human to make mistakes, but the beauty of God is, if you realize your mistakes and ask for forgiveness, they are gone to Him. The consequences of those actions aren't gone but the guilt that comes from God is gone.

As for my conscience being my sub-conscious mind....its yet another thing that we disagree on. According to the world you explination may be true, but the ways of the world are not the ways of God.


yet another quotes comes .....

[QUOTE]Did you know that the Conscience literally IS your subcontious mind? They are one in the same. Oh, and I wasn't aware people were born again in Christianity... I thought that it was all Sherry and Giggles until the Rapture or somesuch. What kind of God would take people from paradise and thrust them back into this piece of crap. [/QUOTE]

Umm... on this one...I believe you misunderstood what I said, or I just am very incoherent. ANyways, born again is another term that we use to mean "to be saved". It means our former selves, aka the worldly or sinful selves, die and our soul is cleansed and we are a new person. Its sort of like starting from scratch. It doesn't mean that we actually literally die and then rise from the dead. Sorry if I was unclear.

[QUOTE]What does that have to do with Religion? I've met Protestents and Catholics, Muslims and Sikh, Pagans and (Believe or not) devout followers of the Force (Ya, as in Star Wars) I've met Scientologists and I've met Odinists. I've met a lot of athiests. Believe it or not, some people were complete ********. Some people were incredibly nice. This has nothing to do with religion. It's human nature to vary from person to person and Religion doesn't have a big impact. By the by, if you ever meet a Scientologist, try not to engage in conversation. They are, literally, the most insane-sounding human beings to walk the earth with the possible exception of Neo-Conservatives[/QUOTE]

As for that one....if I understand it correctly that is....people who actually believe in "the force" like in the literal since are not true christians. As for "people" in general being nice. How do you know that they are truely nice because they like being nice people? How do you know that it isn't just a selfish front so that people will like them? I don't really good people as in what they do or how they are to people around them, but are they truely good to the deepest most inner part of their being. Are they truely a person of God.

And those other people....the Odinist ( I assume meaning the Norse whatever he is......wait is it norse....Agh...nother brain fart.... :animeswea ) and the scientologists...I really have no idea in Heaven what or who they are.....but you actually met some? Interesting.....you get around a lot don't you...and you're what 14 this year......if this is really your account......don't believe it, but ya never know :D

And yet another novel is done! Enjoy chok..I mean reading it :p

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='Ganymede']As for "people" in general being nice. How do you know that they are truely nice because they like being nice people? How do you know that it isn't just a selfish front so that people will like them? I don't really good people as in what they do or how they are to people around them, but are they truely good to the deepest most inner part of their being. Are they truely a person of God.[/quote]
If being a person of God automatically makes you a good person [i]deep down to the deepest most inner part of their being[/i], care to explain the case of that whackjob back in the 1930s and 40s, umm... I think his name was... damn, it escapes me. No wait, I remember now. [b]Hitler[/b].

There's good people and there's bad people, and belief in God isn't what makes them good or bad. The worst people in history have been Christian. Similarly, the most inspirational people in history haven't been Christian. Ever here of Ghandi? Great bloke, pretty much defined the concept of the non-violent protest and freed India by using it. He's generally considered one of the greatest the world has ever known. Wasn't a Christian.

God doesn't make people automatically good, and similarly lack of God doesn't make people automatically two-faced and horrible [i]deep down to the deepest most inner part of their being[/i]. People define whether they are good or not, not their religion. I mean, that 'inherent goodness' Hitler had never stopped him killing two thirds of the Jewish population, did it?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Ezekiel]

[color=#F84E20][SIZE=1]Yeah, Aiyisha, you've just reminded me...

Stalin made his people believe that God was speaking through him, that he was pure and was almost of God level himself.

He killed more people than Hitler. They were his own people. Who supported him.

Good guy, ne?[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Zeekan]

Well, whackjobs like Hitler and Stalin use religion to justify their evil intentions, could Hitler be truly Christian? he gassed 6 billion Jews, the "chosen people of God". It's not very Christianite to do that, is it?

Christian or not? Well, I'm not really into that much religion, but I am starting to question my atheism. The Bible does make some solid readin.

[Sandy]

[quote name='Zeekan']The Bible does make some solid readin.[/quote]

Like the parts where it tells you to stone your wife if she cheats, while in the other parts it tells you not to kill? Very solid, indeed...

[sakurasuka]

[QUOTE=Sage]
[B]Sakurasuka:[/B] Don't you think that there might have actually been researches about evolution after Darwin? ;) You're speaking like he is the only one who has ever studied the subject! I'm no researcher so I have very little understandment over the micro- and macro-whatnots, but to me, [I]any[/I] theory with at least some effort to solve the Big Mysteries of the Universe with one's own brain exceeds the one where "God just made it all happen like that".

I'm not saying that the Theory of Evolution is the ultimate truth, but still you Christian people seem strangely offended and aggravated by it.

Makes you doubt, does it? Makes you use your [I]own thinking[/I], does it? Scary, huh? ;P[/QUOTE]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]I wasn't stating that he was the only one. He was just the one that created the entire theory. I didn't feel the need to go on any further with the lives of other evolutionist merely out of lack of time, not out of lack of interest.

I have studied many theories that stray very slightly from the original 'Creation or Evolution?' and all are apparent codswallap. I think those two hypothesysis are the ones that are (arguably) the closest to the truth, but there is obvious scientific evidence [I]against[/I] both! The only reason I was bringing up Darwin so much was that he was the ONLY Evolutionist to find ANY proof. Since then, there hasn't been a shread of evidence.

Yes, I believe 'God just made it all happen like that" because it is my religion and faith. Just because that is the situation doesn't mean that I frown upon any other poeple or religions, I have no reason to. The Bible tells me to love unconditionally, therefore I do.

Sage, before you say 'You Christains people tend to...' please remember that we are all individuals not to be bunched into a group. I have not made any generalizations about you, I'd like to ask you to refrain from generalizing me. Thank you.

I have absolutely no problems with the theory of Evolution (And I'm not any more agravated than you seem, Sage) except that it is not nessecarily the theory in which I put my faith. I think Darwin was a brilliant scientist, and was the first to try and explain things without involving a God. He was unique and quick-thinking. So are many other Evolutionists! But try asking any of them to give you any evidence that would stand. AT ALL. They can provide none. Except the one skeleton they found that [I]might[/I] have been the missing link betweek man and ape... Or it might have been merely a skinny gorilla.

Creationists have even less proof, but they also have little-to-no proof [I]against[/I] thier 'theory' (Out of lack of a better word). Therefore, Creation is more scientifically correct than Evolution! But I digress.

In a perfect world, everone would likely have different beliefs and such. The only difference between this world and a perfect world? People would stop bashing the beliefs of others. I'm not gonna change my mind about religion, Sage, and I doubt I could convince you to change yours (Nor would I want to). I just would rather not argue, because it wastes time that neither of us should really waste. (Also, you run the risk of being outsmarted by a 14-year-old ;P Just kidding, Sage! Lol.)[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[Sandy]

[quote name='sakurasuka][CENTER][SIZE=1] I just would rather not argue, because it wastes time that neither of us should really waste. (Also, you run the risk of being outsmarted by a 14-year-old ;P Just kidding, Sage! Lol.)[/SIZE'][/CENTER][/quote]

But we aren't arguing, we're debating! There's a clear line between those two! ;) I'm not judging anybody according to their beliefs, I just like to think that people should at least give their believings and disbelievings a thought, like you obviously have. ;D

To be outsmarted by a 14-year old? Meh, that has happened before... ;P I'm really not the smartest person out there, and I tend to say things I regret later, but I think I've figured this religion-issue out pretty well to myself.

I don't see any divinity or "God's work" in my every-day-life, all I see is people, their actions and the consequences that follow. The natural cycle of life, and all that...

You might say that the cycle in itself is God's big plan, but why do you insist on bringing up all these miracles and divine interventions then?

I have a very pantheistic approach to my atheism; I don't believe that there is any higher forces out there, I believe that life in itself is the "highest power", in all of its forms. This whole globe we live in... it's a pretty darn miraculous thing, but it has nothing to do with mythical feats or prophets or angels. It's just a big ball of pure life. ;)

PS. I wasn't trying to generalize Christians, I just didn't want to type "some of you Christians" over and over again. I thought it was self-explanatory that I wasn't talking about the whole bunch...

[Dagger]

[quote name='Sage']Like the parts where it tells you to stone your wife if she cheats, while in the other parts it tells you not to kill? Very solid, indeed...[/quote]
Not to butt in, but that's a cheap shot. It would be a fair point to raise in the context of other debates (i.e. whether or not homosexuality can ever be compatible with Christianity). However, it doesn't strike me as being a valid response to what Zeekan said; even from the standpoint of a non-believer, the Bible is a literary work whose historical & philosophical importance cannot be over-emphasized. And people aren't talking about Leviticus when they say things like that, either.

In other words, there's more to the Bible than stoning and the usual stories kids learn in Sunday school. Speaking generally, one may disagree with some, most or even all of it (which would startle me--I don't see how a person could be totally opposed to the description of love found in 1 Corinthians), but trying to [i]understand[/i] it--either for the purpose of arguing against it or for figuring out what the big deal is--can nevertheless be beneficial.

~Dagger~

[Sandy]

Um, I wasn't being dead serious, Dagger. I'm sorry, but it's my bad habit to throw snarky retorts like that one...

Of course I'm not saying that Bible is full of bs, there are many interesting historical documents and beautiful poetry contained within it, but that's exactly why I was trying to point out that it's wrong to call it "solid". Btw, I understood the word as a synonym to "consistent", I'm sorry if I translated it wrong...

Boy, it's really hard to keep up a light-hearted debate with such a topic... :/ I wish people wouldn't take everything I say so seriously, because to me religion is not that grave issue.

[Dagger]

[quote name='Sage']Btw, I understood the word as a synonym to "consistent", I'm sorry if I translated it wrong...[/quote]
Mm... it can be used like that, but in Zeekan's post I read it as meaning something like "heavy" (in a metaphorical sense) or "really interesting" (a sort of slang-ish usage). So to me it seemed as if you were chucking out the entire Bible based on that one tiny thing (or any number of similar examples). I hope that helps explain why I responded the way I did. :animeswea

Anyway, thanks for your post. It's fine that religion isn't a super-somber issue for you, but the tone of this thread is such that "snarky retorts" risk being misinterpreted and/or sparking some real vitriol if they aren't easily identifiable as being non-serious.

~Dagger~

[Semjaza]

Evolution is so obvious I don't even know why people question it. It may be a theory, but it works in real world situations on a regular basis. I'm continuing with my idea of "Why couldn't god be responsible for evolution?", personally. I don't see why a religous person cannot accept both, unless they honestly think the world is only a few thousand years old. If I was really religious, I would be able to comprehend the idea that "hey, maybe something like evolution was god's plan!" It's not like we have any idea how long his creation days were, if we go by Genesis.

As it is, half the argument in here seems to be "The bible doesn't talk about it that way, so it must not exist!" If people want to believe that, then fine... I'm all for personal faith. But denouncing what others thing and calling evolution "shaky" by comparison is rather bizarre. It's not like the Bible mentions 95% of the things that go on today either.

A lot of people who have some sort of issue with evolution seem to have the idea that a monkey gave birth to a human almost out of nowhere. The same concept of "What came first, the chicken or the egg?" Things don't just plop out and that's the end of it.

The evolution was so ridiculously gradual from each organism on this planet. A lot of people would be like "what proof is there?" However, the general idea of evolution simply states that the best suited traits would be passed on to offspring. In some cases this results in different animals, in many cases not. Why this is so hard to comprehend for people, I have no idea.

There's actual documented cases of evolution. For example, there was one thing I was reading where a group of birds survived some sort of local environmental disaster (I believe a hurricane), but their traditional food source was wiped away. They had to rely on a different type of nut with a much harder shell encasing it. As such, birds with weaker beaks didn't survive very long. The ones with harder beaks did, and as such, the gene for that hard beak was passed down. So much so that these birds have almost entirely different beaks and eating habits. And even enough that many scientists consider these new ones an entirely different species. This all took place in an insanely short time frame considering their lifespans.

Then you have elephants basically evolving to the point where they don't have tusks anymore. Obviously large portions of tusked elephants are poached. If tuskless ones survive, they pass this on to their offspring.

Bugs evolve resistance to pesticides and other issues that affect their lives.

So what exactly are we going to consider things like that? Nothing? It's documented proof of evolution. I think people who are against it really, really exaggerate it considering how damn simple the concept is.

Bush wants to institute the idea that schools should also teach that other method that basically says the earth must have been created under some other higher being (i.e., god), so maybe people will get their way in this lol.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]Okay part of those were indeed...bad but some were good. If you ever read the bible you would know that there where indeed wars, and God had orchestrated them himself, I unfortunately cannot say if any of these were orchestrated by God or man, because I truelly do not have an indepth knowledge of them, and I would not want to say something that is not true. But I know a little about the Spanish Inquisition....well not much really....I know that they tortured and killed people that didn't believe in their religion. I'm sure I don't have to tell you that these people were wrong in doing that, that is NOT something of God. It is wrong to force relgion on an unbeliever, so the bible says. The witch trials are another of those. It was wrong of those people to kill the suspected witches, it was wrong of them to kill them at all, even if they were witches, but their superstitious ways got the best of them and led them into sin. ( superstition is not of God). To kill innocent people who cannot defend themselves is always a wrong thing....UNLESS God instructed you to. Like with Abraham and Isacc. God told Abraham ( at least I think its Abraham....I might be wrong about that name so don't hold it against me) to sacrifice Isacc instead of a lamb. ANd since Abraham was going to obey God's command HE spared Isacc's life. It was sort of a test of Abraham's faith in God.

According to God's word you are to immitate Jesus's life. Since he NEVER sinned you are to do your best to not sin either. As for Christianity being the cause of death, you are right that people did do those things in God's name, but you should know by now, living in this day and age as we do, that what people may claim themselves to be isn't always the truth. But there are those people who truely believe they are doing God's will when they are not. As I said waaaaay before, people make mistakes, they are fooled into thinking things that aren't true. Its part of being human to make mistakes, but the beauty of God is, if you realize your mistakes and ask for forgiveness, they are gone to Him. The consequences of those actions aren't gone but the guilt that comes from God is gone.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Now this is my favourite part. Who are you to say who was doing the word of God and who was not? The way the Inquisitioners (And trust me, I've done studies, they were 100% Christian) interpreted Christianity, torturing unbelievers was the correct method to follow the word of God. Just like with Hitler. Was he a good guy? No. Did he believe in what is the main-stream typical belif known as Christianity? No. But he was most certainly a Christian. For all we know, God could have been waiting with open arms when Hitler died. [/COLOR]
[QUOTE]
As for that one....if I understand it correctly that is....people who actually believe in "the force" like in the literal since are not true christians. As for "people" in general being nice. How do you know that they are truely nice because they like being nice people? How do you know that it isn't just a selfish front so that people will like them? I don't really good people as in what they do or how they are to people around them, but are they truely good to the deepest most inner part of their being. Are they truely a person of God.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

I never said that the Padawan Church of the Jedi Knight Faith (Correctly named) were Christians. I said that they were nice people (Although being a nerd is like a prerequisit) and a few were ********. I judge people on not their religion, I judge them on how I meet them. I've met some Christian fundie asswipes, and I've met some very nice Christians. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
And those other people....the Odinist ( I assume meaning the Norse whatever he is......wait is it norse....Agh...nother brain fart.... ) and the scientologists...I really have no idea in Heaven what or who they are.....but you actually met some? Interesting.....you get around a lot don't you...and you're what 14 this year......if this is really your account......don't believe it, but ya never know [/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Ya, Odinists are worshipers of Odin and the Asgard. I know some because, for a time, I was one. As for scientologists, well... Your not going to believe this but here goes.... The way I understand it, there was this Alien Overlord (Name escapes me) and he once ruled over the earth. Than these Gigantic Aliens (Again, name) came and tried to invade and kill all the primative humans. So the Alien Overlord chained these Gigantic Aliens to volcanoes and destroyed them with Atomic Bombs. These dead aliens released 'Thetans' and these Thetans intered the Human Body and that's what causes bad things to happen to human beings, and the only way to remove this Thetans is to become a Scientologists. It's really caught on in Hollywood.
[/COLOR]

[Mitch]

On a good day I capitalize God and I consider myself Agnostic. For those who don't know what that is, well, it means I don't care if there's a God and I believe there's no way to know for sure if there is one, so why worry about it?

I also don't really believe in peoples' usual monotheistic beliefs. I don't think there's this one ultimate, omniscient, omnipotent being that made everything and is everything.

Monotheism is such a Western idea, I mean, come on.

On a bad day I don't capitalize god and I'm an athiest.

I think today, I feel like an athiest.

[John]

*Ahem!* So yeah, Sara wrapped up the snakes thing for me, and I'm way too lazy to read any of the arguments since then. (I didn't see a rebuttal to that one, anyway.)

[quote name='Generic NPC #3']Evolution is so obvious I don't even know why people question it. It may be a theory, but it works in real world situations on a regular basis. I'm continuing with my idea of "Why couldn't god be responsible for evolution?", personally. I don't see why a religous person cannot accept both, unless they honestly think the world is only a few thousand years old. If I was really religious, I would be able to comprehend the idea that "hey, maybe something like evolution was god's plan!" It's not like we have any idea how long his creation days were, if we go by Genesis.[/quote] Most Christians do go by the idea that the "seven days" thing was metaphorical, and each stage of creation could've lasted for ten seconds or ten billion years. Obviously, the latter is more likely. The reason Evolution couldn't have happened is because of the order of the creation of the animals, which doesn't line up with evolution, from what I recall.

[QUOTE]As it is, half the argument in here seems to be "The bible doesn't talk about it that way, so it must not exist!" If people want to believe that, then fine... I'm all for personal faith. But denouncing what others thing and calling evolution "shaky" by comparison is rather bizarre. It's not like the Bible mentions 95% of the things that go on today either.[/QUOTE] And that's something that pisses me off about a lot of Christians, because Evolution is a solid theory. By my beliefs it's wrong, but it's a solid theory. They just think that because it [i]is[/i] wrong, that they have to attack it relentlessly to convince people of the fact, even though all it does is drive people away from Christianity.

In addition, I do believe in evolution on a small scale, like you described. As for why I can believe it on that scale, but not the large one that would logically follow? Well, part of it comes down to the faith we've been debating here, and part of it could be a result of several possibilities. One of which is that evolution was set into motion after the Creation was finished, and that it'll end before we see any major results.

I'm not an expert on this topic, though, and I tend to stay away from it.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
Most Christians do go by the idea that the "seven days" thing was metaphorical, and each stage of creation could've lasted for ten seconds or ten billion years. Obviously, the latter is more likely. The reason Evolution couldn't have happened is because of the order of the creation of the animals, which doesn't line up with evolution, from what I recall.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
So? Dinos aren't exactly mentioned in Creation, do you deny their existence as well?

[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
In addition, I do believe in evolution on a small scale, like you described. As for why I can believe it on that scale, but not the large one that would logically follow? Well, part of it comes down to the faith we've been debating here, and part of it could be a result of several possibilities. One of which is that evolution was set into motion after the Creation was finished, and that it'll end before we see any major results.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
How can you look at the proof, the DNA evidence, the fossils, the whole thing, and still not believe that Evolution on a large scale is possible. Hyena's are related to Cats. Do they look anything or act anything like Cats? No. That's proof enough for evolution. [/COLOR]

[sakurasuka]

[QUOTE=Sage]But we aren't arguing, we're debating! There's a clear line between those two! ;) I'm not judging anybody according to their beliefs, I just like to think that people should at least give their believings and disbelievings a thought, like you obviously have. ;D

To be outsmarted by a 14-year old? Meh, that has happened before... ;P I'm really not the smartest person out there, and I tend to say things I regret later, but I think I've figured this religion-issue out pretty well to myself.

I don't see any divinity or "God's work" in my every-day-life, all I see is people, their actions and the consequences that follow. The natural cycle of life, and all that...

You might say that the cycle in itself is God's big plan, but why do you insist on bringing up all these miracles and divine interventions then?

I have a very pantheistic approach to my atheism; I don't believe that there is any higher forces out there, I believe that life in itself is the "highest power", in all of its forms. This whole globe we live in... it's a pretty darn miraculous thing, but it has nothing to do with mythical feats or prophets or angels. It's just a big ball of pure life. ;)

PS. I wasn't trying to generalize Christians, I just didn't want to type "some of you Christians" over and over again. I thought it was self-explanatory that I wasn't talking about the whole bunch...[/QUOTE]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]There is a fine line between arguing and debating. Thus far, most of the comments in this thread have been in the good nature of debating and such, but there have been a few downright horrible statements (Not said by you, mostly by people who think of Christains as a whole badly, but anyway...) I think that once something even STARTS to get offensive, and they CERTAINLY have (Yet again, not you but other comments I've seen in this thread) and I PERSONALLY feel the NEED to become defensive, it is then a defensive agruement in my mind. It hasn't reached that point yet, because I just choose to ignore them. I was just letting you know that it isn't a debate once you start to bash Christains or religion, and you were begining to.

And your aproach to atheism isn't bad. I think you have a pretty good view on all that. Not my personal view, but a pretty good one.

And thank you for clearing up the Christian generalization thing.[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[Kamuro]

[SIZE=1]It's hard not to generalize a religion. They are a group of people following the same guidlines and holding close to them the same entity of life. Whether some are nice and some aren't, they're all Christian, so it's tough not to simply group them together and say "there's a religion," and then draw a conclusion from it. Sure, some are more extreme then others, but from the outside looking in it's all one group of people.

Whatever you decided to classify the "debate" as, it's useless to argue over God and evolution, since it's obviously not going anywhere. Those who believe in evolution say "there's plenty of evidence proving it's true!" and then those believing in God say "you're thinking to theoretically, have faith!" lol. They both contradict themselves and come to a stalemate on almost all the issues.

All I'm saying, is whether or not it's right, people should respect one another and their beliefs. A lot of the time, this isn't the case. Whether Christian or Atheist, neither has the right to condemn the other for the way they think and what they choose to believe. That's the whole idea of freedom of religion, to believe what you want without being persectued for it. And legally, you can't be persecuted for it, so the law works to a certain extent. But socially, people are persecuted everyday for being different. People who don't believe in God are looked down upon and no matter the points they make to defend themselves, people say "it doesn't matter, they're going to hell anyway." Well how fair and just is that? You're given the right to worship how you choose yet an opposing religion is based on the fact that having conflicting beliefs is wrong and you should be punished for them.

The government does it's job to broaden religious beliefs, yet the beliefs themselves seclude people from one another and cause fueds and debates like this over what's right and what isn't. Which is really a mute point in my opinion. Whether evolution or God is responsible for why we're here, we've been given free will for a reason. Even if you are Christian, is it so bad living life for yourself rather then God? You've been given the opportunity to live yet it's become so restricted over the years free will is merely a title and holds no substantial ground. Is it so bad to branch from your own religion and realize other walks of life?

Even the best Christian's sin, but why should you be sorry for it? If things happen for a reason then why should you regret the things you've done and the events that've brought you here today? So you've made mistakes, everyone does, but you've grown from them. Sins might not be the most favorable tasks, but they help you to grow and become the person you're striving to be. Whether it's for God, yourself, or another spiritual entity, your life is your own. Fate could very well be true, but free will allows us to determine our own destiny, so whether it was planned or not, it's the choices we've made that got us there. Just be open, and accept people for who they are.[/SIZE]

[sakurasuka]

[quote name='Kamuro][SIZE=1']It's hard not to generalize a religion. They are a group of people following the same guidlines and holding close to them the same entity of life. Whether some are nice and some aren't, they're all Christian, so it's tough not to simply group them together and say "there's a religion," and then draw a conclusion from it. Sure, some are more extreme then others, but from the outside looking in it's all one group of people.[/size][/quote]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]I suppose I can see where you're coming from, but I don't look at and generalize athiests. I don't have the right to judge them, nor do they have the right to judge me. Just because it's easy to generalize doesn't mean you should.[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[quote name='Kamuro][SIZE=1']Whatever you decided to classify the "debate" as, it's useless to argue over God and evolution, since it's obviously not going anywhere. Those who believe in evolution say "there's plenty of evidence proving it's true!" and then those believing in God say "you're thinking to theoretically, have faith!" lol. They both contradict themselves and come to a stalemate on almost all the issues.[/size][/quote]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]You are absolutely correct.[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[quote name='Kamuro][SIZE=1']All I'm saying, is whether or not it's right, people should respect one another and their beliefs. A lot of the time, this isn't the case. Whether Christian or Atheist, neither has the right to condemn the other for the way they think and what they choose to believe. That's the whole idea of freedom of religion, to believe what you want without being persectued for it. And legally, you can't be persecuted for it, so the law works to a certain extent. But socially, people are persecuted everyday for being different. People who don't believe in God are looked down upon and no matter the points they make to defend themselves, people say "it doesn't matter, they're going to hell anyway." Well how fair and just is that? You're given the right to worship how you choose yet an opposing religion is based on the fact that having conflicting beliefs is wrong and you should be punished for them.[/size][/quote]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]I sort of agree with you here, but...

I think all people should respect everyone else even if it's just because we're all human beings. Noone should judge others for thier beliefs/race/gender/sexual prefferences/or ANYTHING like that. But... People just do. Right there you've judged Christians, and all through this thread people have been judging Christians.

I don't just look at anyone who doesn't think like me and say 'Well... He's going to hell.' because I just think that's wrong. there are people who judge non-Christians, but there are just as many on the other side judging back.[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[quote name='Kamuro][SIZE=1']The government does it's job to broaden religious beliefs, yet the beliefs themselves seclude people from one another and cause fueds and debates like this over what's right and what isn't. Which is really a mute point in my opinion. Whether evolution or God is responsible for why we're here, we've been given free will for a reason. Even if you are Christian, is it so bad living life for yourself rather then God? You've been given the opportunity to live yet it's become so restricted over the years free will is merely a title and holds no substantial ground. Is it so bad to branch from your own religion and realize other walks of life?[/size][/quote]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]I live how I choose (And I know others do too) and I don't think there's anything wrong with those who live thier lives away from God. It just doesn't happen to be what I personally do. I don't tell you to join my faith, you don't tell me to stray from mine, agreed? ;)[/SIZE][/CENTER]

[quote name='Kamuro][SIZE=1']Even the best Christian's sin, but why should you be sorry for it? If things happen for a reason then why should you regret the things you've done and the events that've brought you here today? So you've made mistakes, everyone does, but you've grown from them. Sins might not be the most favorable tasks, but they help you to grow and become the person you're striving to be. Whether it's for God, yourself, or another spiritual entity, your life is your own. Fate could very well be true, but free will allows us to determine our own destiny, so whether it was planned or not, it's the choices we've made that got us there. Just be open, and accept people for who they are.[/SIZE][/quote]

[CENTER][SIZE=1]We all sin. I ask God to forgive me of my sins so that I can live with myself, but everyone does this differently. Some just let go, some confront those they've wronged, some just ignore the guilt, some HAVE no guilt. To each his own.

And yes, we should just accept people for who they are... Not what they are, and not the choices they've made.[/SIZE][/CENTER]