Christian ... or Not?

[Xander Harris]

*de-lurks after a several month absence lol*

ok A few things, since this is a Christianity thread as opposed to a general religions thread, I feel that this is an appropriate place to say them.

1. I see a lot of evolution vs. creationism debate here. Christians do not all believe the Genesis accounts are meant to be taken as literal scientific statements. They convey general truths in a poetic way... God created the world. It is good to both work and rest. Good will ultimately triumph over evil. Humanity (possibly in the historical person of Adam, possibly simply symbolised by the character Adam) sinned and fell away from God. There were consequences for this. These are the points of the first few chapters of the Bible. Christians are divided over whether or not they are meant to be taken literally beyond these simple truths. The essence of Christianity is not found in debate about the origion of the species. In many ways, it is an irrelevent topic. The question is Who/What created the world, not how it was specifically done is scientific detail.

2. The central issue of Christianity is the resurrection and divinity of Christ. If Christ was indeed raised from the dead, then his words are confirmed true. The remainder of the Christian religion builds from this. If you want to argue a case for Christianity, argue the case for Christ; the evidence for and against his divinity and resurrection.

Oh, and yeah, I'm a Christian. Maybe if I'll talk more in this thread later, but for right now I just wanted to try and steer it in a more productive direction.

[Kamuro]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][CENTER][SIZE=1]I sort of agree with you here, but...

I think all people should respect everyone else even if it's just because we're all human beings. Noone should judge others for thier beliefs/race/gender/sexual prefferences/or ANYTHING like that. But... People just do. Right there you've judged Christians, and all through this thread people have been judging Christians.

I don't just look at anyone who doesn't think like me and say 'Well... He's going to hell.' because I just think that's wrong. there are people who judge non-Christians, but there are just as many on the other side judging back.[/SIZE][/CENTER][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]Thats the point I was trying to make before. You personally don't judge people who aren't Christian. You don't say we're going to Hell, but your religion does lol. Your religion is what you believe in isn't it? So you do believe that if you don't have faith in God then you'll go to hell? So even without blatantly saying "hey, you're going to hell," it's what you think will happen? So how is someone like me, someone who holds a different opinion then your own, supposed to respect a belief that condemns me and expects me to suffer eternally for not believing in the same things that you do? Which leads to the generalization of Christians. You're different, each Christian is different then the next, yet you all hold dear the same religious beliefs, the belief that I'll go to Hell and pay the price for believing in something different.[/SIZE]

[quote name='sakurasuka][CENTER][SIZE=1]I live how I choose (And I know others do too) and I don't think there's anything wrong with those who live thier lives away from God. It just doesn't happen to be what I personally do. I don't tell you to join my faith, you don't tell me to stray from mine, agreed? ;)[/SIZE'][/CENTER][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Same as the points I made above, you're seperating yourself from others that follow the same religion. You havn't personally pressured your faith on me, but others have. Many many others lol. Most people I know find it hard to accept that I don't believe in God, some have even shunned me for it. And they were Christian, so I apolgize if my opinion seems biased, but how can it not? We've both been given things to base our opinions on, and I have to work with what I've been given. Analyze the Christians I know and the belief itself. And the conclusion I come to is far from a Christian like yourself lol.[/SIZE]

[Xander Harris]

3. Truth exists apart from the opinion of the person examining the validity of that truth. There is a tree in my back yard. I can choose to tell people there is not a tree. I may not believe there is a tree. I may have never even looked out my window and seen the tree. The fact that I don't believe in or tell people about the tree does nothing to change the fact that there is a tree there.

Likewise, the validity of religious statements must be examined apart from one's personal experiences with members of the faith. If there is a God, then there is a God, whether you choose to believe in God or not. If there is not a God, then there is no God, regardless of what someone might say otherwise.

Individual Christians (or as least people calling themselves Christians) may or may not live according to the teachings of their religion. That has nothing to do with whether or not those teachings have any validity.

Debate about the ideas, not the people who have said them.

[Zeekan]

[quote name='Sage']Like the parts where it tells you to stone your wife if she cheats, while in the other parts it tells you not to kill? Very solid, indeed...[/quote]

Old Testament.....New Testament, as far as I can see, the difference is Jesus.

The Judaic religion required eye for eye, and corporal punishments for sin, they also demanded animal sacrifices, but then Jesus came along, claimed to be the son of god and did away with the sacrificial system for sin by being the sacrifice himself. He also did away with the need to stone a cheating wife, blatantly condemning it in one instance.
Jesus was sinless, for the christian religion, and therefore he was the only one who could stone someone without being a hypocrite. This is where the whole debasement of stoning cheating wifes coems from, the fact that none of us would be worhty to do so anyway. As a plus, you get the whole "Love thy neighbour" thing which is pretty nifty, I don't know what the crusaders were smoking.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote name='Generic NPC #3']"Why couldn't god be responsible for evolution?"[/quote] Ba-dum ching. Beat me to it.

Tony is right. There is nothing to say that God isn't a scientist, as such, who actually made the Earth in the manner believed by evolutionary scientists. Now, that'd be a nice compromise.

And, just for another example of evolution, but on a smaller level than Tony's, think about all the super-resistant viruses sweeping our hospitals.[/size]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1] Ba-dum ching. Beat me to it.

Tony is right. There is nothing to say that God isn't a scientist, as such, who actually made the Earth in the manner believed by evolutionary scientists. Now, that'd be a nice compromise.

And, just for another example of evolution, but on a smaller level than Tony's, think about all the super-resistant viruses sweeping our hospitals.[/size][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]I hate to be the 'Amen Chorus' so to speak, but Generic and Baron are right.

It makes me cringe when people suggest that God and science cannot co-exist, and such thinking is what spreads across the "You Christians think..." board. It sucks to be grouped automatically with stereotypical Christians, but enough of that.

Super-resistant viruses are a perfect example of evolution right under our noses. By using the same antibiotics, the viruses adapt and become extremely resilient -- to the point where doctors will soon be scrambling to find new cures to infections and whatnot. That's why we don't use as much Penicillin, because many viruses are now immune to it. If that's not proof enough of evolution, I don't know what is.[/SIZE]

[are i]

[COLOR=DarkRed]There's a lot of debate here over Christians condemning other religions. The fact of the matter is, if it's your belief- if you really believe it's true- than by default you believe that other religions are not right.

After all, can you really claim to be a Christian and believe that Buddhism could also be true? In a situation like that, you don't really believe in Christianity, do you?

The same goes for believing that non-Christians will eventually go to Hell. If you really believe in Christianity, than you believe in the ultimate dividing of the people into either Heaven or Hell.

Claiming that you don't "impress your faith on other people" by saying they are on a path that will eventually lead to destruction, how could you possibly believe that they really are? I mean, if you really believed that all these people were going to suffer, wouldn't you want to try to help them?

That's what true Christians do. By sharing the gospel, we aren't trying to pressure you into our way of life for the sake of pressuring you into our way of life. We want to save people from a life of eternal suffering- show people freedom, healing, and joy. It's only natural that, if people really believed in Christianity, they would want you to believe as well.

[QUOTE=Xander Harris]Individual Christians (or as least people calling themselves Christians) may or may not live according to the teachings of their religion. That has nothing to do with whether or not those teachings have any validity.

Debate about the ideas, not the people who have said them.[/QUOTE]
Do I really need to explain this?[/COLOR]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=are i][COLOR=DarkRed]
The same goes for believing that non-Christians will eventually go to Hell. If you really believe in Christianity, than you believe in the ultimate dividing of the people into either Heaven or Hell.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

That's not actually true, see at least in Lutheran teachings there is no Hell, there is only God's heavenly paradise which opens to those who repent their sins and succumb in front of God and Jesus.

What happens to the others then, you might ask? The Lutheran church preaches of eternal oblivion, meaning that the soul loses it's immortality. The medieval concept of fiery infernal Hell doesn't fit into this scene at all.

I know that Catholic people have it differently, but isn't that one of the many issues the two churches have been fighting over for centuries?

I know it's wrong to generalize all Christians into one (and again I apologize if it seems I've done that) because Christiany has divided into so many parts: Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican and all the sects that have separated theirselves from it, like the Mormons and Adventist etc. I reckon that not even all Christians realize how divided their own religion is...

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
That's what true Christians do. By sharing the gospel, we aren't trying to pressure you into our way of life for the sake of pressuring you into our way of life. We want to save people from a life of eternal suffering- show people freedom, healing, and joy. It's only natural that, if people really believed in Christianity, they would want you to believe as well.[/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Than, by definition, all Christians (True Christians) are Facists. They are all guilty of 'Gentle Genocide.' Even if the intentions are good, that's notihng but imposing one's will on others. [/COLOR]

[are i]

[COLOR=DarkRed][QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
Than, by definition, all Christians (True Christians) are Facists. They are all guilty of 'Gentle Genocide.' Even if the intentions are good, that's notihng but imposing one's will on others. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Okay then... metaphors...

If you had the cure for cancer, the ability to save millions of people from a mortal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to die needlessly?

If you knew how to save people from an eternal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to suffer needlessly?

After all, what is a mortal death compared to eternal suffering?

You may argue that this is uncomparable because cancer is a very tangible desease whereas Hell is a belief of a certain religion.

But to Christians (eh, except the Lutherans...) Hell is as real as cancer, and even moreso. To Christians, Hell is worse, because cancer will eventually fade into non-existance while Hell is eternal, and much more painful. This is a Christian's motivation.

Of course, offering someone the cure to cancer could also be considered imposing one's will on another.

Just remember that while Christians may be persistant, we aren't forcing you to believe. It's your own choice, no one else can make it for you. (It's not our place to condemn you because you didn't choose to believe, either. We will simply believe you are wrong ;) )

[quote name='Sage']I know it's wrong to generalize all Christians into one (and again I apologize if it seems I've done that) because Christiany has divided into so many parts: Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican and all the sects that have separated theirselves from it, like the Mormons and Adventist etc. I reckon that not even all Christians realize how divided their own religion is...[/quote]
You know, the fact that so many Christians can't seem to agree on anything would be funny if it weren't so sad. :animeswea [/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Sage']I know it's wrong to generalize all Christians into one (and again I apologize if it seems I've done that) because Christiany has divided into so many parts: Catholic, Orthodox, Lutheran, Baptist, Anglican and all the sects that have separated theirselves from it, like the Mormons and Adventist etc. I reckon that not even all Christians realize how divided their own religion is...[/quote]

[SIZE=1]That's one of the truest statements I've read in a while, most Christians don't even consider themselves primarily as Christian, rather they go by which Church they are part of. I refer to myself as being Roman Catholic because there are inherent differences between the different Church dogmas, which is really why you can't accurately generalise with Christians unless you're talking about specific things common to [B]all[/B] Christians. I'm not saying differentiating between each sect, for the lack of a better word is a good thing but better to be accurate in what you're debating I suppose.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Than, by definition, all Christians (True Christians) are Facists. They are all guilty of 'Gentle Genocide.' Even if the intentions are good, that's notihng but imposing one's will on others. [/COLOR][/quote]

[size=1]Ilium I really wish you'd use the correct term to describe someone, rather than just a derogatary insult because you disagree with their beliefs. In the other thread you called Chabichou a "[I]fundamentalist[/I]" because of her position, and now you've called all Christians "[I]fascists[/I]" because they believe they are helping people by trying to ensure they don't go to Hell.

Again it's all down to faith, which is why this argument can't be won, I don't agree with trying to convert people if they don't want to be converted. I may hold the position that I'd be helping them if I do, but I'm not going to ignore their free will if they don't want to. But really how many people could be labelled as Fascists for trying to change the will of others ? How many people here could be labelled as Fascists under Ilium's grasp of the word because they've tried to change people's minds on issues.

Here's the actual meaning of Fascist Ilium, as well as the actual meaning of Fascism.[/size]

[QUOTE=http://dictionary.cambridge.org][SIZE=1][B]fascist [/B]
noun [C]
1 someone who supports fascism

2 a person of the far right in politics

3 DISAPPROVING someone who does not allow any opposition:
[I]He reckons all policemen are fascists and bullies.[/I][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[quote=http://dictionary.cambridge.org][SIZE=1][B]Fascism[/B]
noun [U]
a political system based on a very powerful leader, state control and extreme pride in country and race, and in which political opposition is not allowed[/SIZE][/quote]

[quote=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism][SIZE=1]The term fascism has come to mean any system of government resembling Mussolini's, that in various combinations:

[list]exalts the nation, (and in some cases the race, culture, or religion) above the [*]individual, with the state apparatus being supreme.
[*]stresses loyalty to a single leader.
[*]uses violence and modern techniques of propaganda and censorship to forcibly [*]suppress political opposition.
[*]engages in severe economic and social regimentation.
[*]engages in syndicalist corporatism.
[*]implements totalitarian systems.
[*]As a populist social movement prior to gaining government power, fascism displays different characteristics.[/list]

In an article in the 1932 Enciclopedia Italiana, written by Giovanni Gentile and attributed to Benito Mussolini, fascism is described as a system in which "The State not only is authority which governs and molds individual wills with laws and values of spiritual life, but it is also power which makes its will prevail abroad... For the Fascist, everything is within the State and... neither individuals nor groups are outside the State... For Fascism, the State is an absolute, before which individuals or groups are only relative..."[/SIZE][/quote]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]

Than, by definition, all Christians (True Christians) are Facists. They are all guilty of 'Gentle Genocide.' Even if the intentions are good, that's notihng but imposing one's will on others. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]... Wow.
[B]
What are you talking about?[/B] I mean, "true Christians" aren't forcing ideas down your throat, or forcing you go to go church against your will. A "true Christian" lets people make the choice, which is why I'm at a complete loss at understanding why you said Christians 'impose one's will on others.' They suggest that you convert, but they don't impose it upon you. I'm taking a stab in the dark and staying your view on what a true Christian actually is, is skewed.

Facists? Again, I have zero clue what you mean. It's a free-will thing. I don't feel like reiterating it for the trillionth time here.

As for the whole "if Christianity is right, all others are wrong," we will never know for sure. Again, you're basing this assumption off what is written in the Bible -- a historical document written by men. While I believe they were inspired to write, their message contains a 'human taint' if you will, carrying bias of the times. It was written in a time where there was very little to no tolerance, and of course this will carry over.[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=are i][COLOR=DarkRed]
Okay then... metaphors...

If you had the cure for cancer, the ability to save millions of people from a mortal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to die needlessly?

If you knew how to save people from an eternal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to suffer needlessly?

After all, what is a mortal death compared to eternal suffering?

You may argue that this is uncomparable because cancer is a very tangible desease whereas Hell is a belief of a certain religion.

But to Christians (eh, except the Lutherans...) Hell is as real as cancer, and even moreso. To Christians, Hell is worse, because cancer will eventually fade into non-existance while Hell is eternal, and much more painful. This is a Christian's motivation.

Of course, offering someone the cure to cancer could also be considered imposing one's will on another.

Just remember that while Christians may be persistant, we aren't forcing you to believe. It's your own choice, no one else can make it for you. (It's not our place to condemn you because you didn't choose to believe, either. We will simply believe you are wrong ;) )[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

There's one big flaw with your logic. You said it yourself, to CHRISTIANS, Hell is real. To the rest of us (That is to say, to Athiests) Hell may be nothing but an old childrens tale. But no one, NO ONE, (Ok, except maybe Scientologists. But they're nuts) can deny that cancer exists. And what if, perhaps, your religion was wrong. What if your metaphorical 'Cure for cancer' was infact just a a plesebo (SP?) drug that did nothing to stop cancer, and that the Cure for Cancer was on the path that you lead them away from. People can decide for themselves without missionaries kicking down their doors. (And I would know. 10 times a month those buggers show up, practically kick in my door, and make me listen to their boring lectures. I called the police a couple of times.) [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]

There's one big flaw with your logic. You said it yourself, to CHRISTIANS, Hell is real. To the rest of us (That is to say, to Athiests) Hell may be nothing but an old childrens tale. But no one, NO ONE, (Ok, except maybe Scientologists. But they're nuts) can deny that cancer exists. And what if, perhaps, your religion was wrong. What if your metaphorical 'Cure for cancer' was infact just a a plesebo (SP?) drug that did nothing to stop cancer, and that the Cure for Cancer was on the path that you lead them away from. People can decide for themselves without missionaries kicking down their doors. (And I would know. 10 times a month those buggers show up, practically kick in my door, and make me listen to their boring lectures. I called the police a couple of times.) [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]But don't you see? You missed the whole point. The point they were trying to make is that:

[B]If you have the cure, why not share it?[/B]

Picking apart the minor details is pretty irrelevant in this case, as it doesn't really prove anything. They were pointing out that if you think the cancer exists, why not share the cure; nothing about if hell exists to athiests or not. [B]It is a percieved cancer, that someone is apparently not aware of -- so they want to alert you of it and try to help.[/B]

Yes, you're right -- people can definitely decide without people kicking down your door, so to speak, but that doesn't mean they can't casually talk to you about it. And if you don't want to hear it, that is just as well.[/SIZE]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]

There's one big flaw with your logic. You said it yourself, to CHRISTIANS, Hell is real. To the rest of us (That is to say, to Athiests) Hell may be nothing but an old childrens tale. But no one, NO ONE, (Ok, except maybe Scientologists. But they're nuts) can deny that cancer exists. And what if, perhaps, your religion was wrong. What if your metaphorical 'Cure for cancer' was infact just a a plesebo (SP?) drug that did nothing to stop cancer, and that the Cure for Cancer was on the path that you lead them away from. People can decide for themselves without missionaries kicking down their doors. (And I would know. 10 times a month those buggers show up, practically kick in my door, and make me listen to their boring lectures. I called the police a couple of times.) [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Again Ilium it's all down to faith, those Christians trying to convert you believe that they are right, that by converting you to Christianity they're saving you from an eternity in Hell. Until we actually die none of us can ever be sure, and then when we're dead we're not going to be able to tell anyone whether we were wrong or right. Again it's all down to faith. [/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]lium I really wish you'd use the correct term to describe someone, rather than just a derogatary insult because you disagree with their beliefs. In the other thread you called Chabichou a "fundamentalist" because of her position, and now you've called all Christians "fascists" because they believe they are helping people by trying to ensure they don't go to Hell.

Again it's all down to faith, which is why this argument can't be won, I don't agree with trying to convert people if they don't want to be converted. I may hold the position that I'd be helping them if I do, but I'm not going to ignore their free will if they don't want to. But really how many people could be labelled as Fascists for trying to change the will of others ? How many people here could be labelled as Fascists under Ilium's grasp of the word because they've tried to change people's minds on issues.

Here's the actual meaning of Fascist Ilium, as well as the actual meaning of Fascism.[/QUOTE]

Wasn't using Facist in a literal sense, I was using Facist in a sense that a Facist form of government imposes what said government believes. It's the same with a religion that, basically, is telling you 'If you don't want to go to hell believe what I believe' that is the essence of Fascism.

[QUOTE]

As for the whole "if Christianity is right, all others are wrong," we will never know for sure. Again, you're basing this assumption off what is written in the Bible -- a historical document written by men. While I believe they were inspired to write, their message contains a 'human taint' if you will, carrying bias of the times. It was written in a time where there was very little to no tolerance, and of course this will carry over.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Considering that the only word of God is the Bible, there is literally nothing else to base Christianity on. Therefore, anyone who is basing Christianity on the Bible is basing their religion on a book that is also flawed. By this logic, Christianity is in fact flawed, no? [/COLOR]

[kayutori_sama]

I'm a Christian, and I'm always disappointed in the stereotype Christians out there. I don't think it's right for somebody to try and force a certain point of view down your throat like some Christians do . I don't think it's right to yell and somebody that they are going to hell. Condeming people and acting ignorant because of your beliefs isn't going to solve anything. I'm not saying that I agrree with everything under the sun, but you can't just block it out either.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
Considering that the only word of God is the Bible, there is literally nothing else to base Christianity on. Therefore, anyone who is basing Christianity on the Bible is basing their religion on a book that is also flawed. By this logic, Christianity is in fact flawed, no? [/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]I will concede, and admit that Christianity might be flawed -- I have no idea. But I do not think the flaw of the Bible is great enough to put a red stamp on Christianity and label it obsolete, flawed, and useless. I'm sure there will always be a slight flaw on anything humankind does; we aren't perfect, so of course following Jesus' exact words is impossible. All we can do is try our hardest, to lessen the degree of error we create, by following the law He gave.

I do not think the entire Bible is a sham, or too flawed to use -- I believe it's message is the most important, and not the mechanics by which everyone tends to get caught up in.[/SIZE]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=are i][COLOR=DarkRed]
If you had the cure for cancer, the ability to save millions of people from a mortal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to die needlessly?

If you knew how to save people from an eternal death, wouldn't you share it? Wouldn't you want people to know so they wouldn't have to suffer needlessly?

After all, what is a mortal death compared to eternal suffering?

You may argue that this is uncomparable because cancer is a very tangible desease whereas Hell is a belief of a certain religion.

But to Christians (eh, except the Lutherans...) Hell is as real as cancer, and even moreso. To Christians, Hell is worse, because cancer will eventually fade into non-existance while Hell is eternal, and much more painful. This is a Christian's motivation.

Of course, offering someone the cure to cancer could also be considered imposing one's will on another.

Just remember that while Christians may be persistant, we aren't forcing you to believe. It's your own choice, no one else can make it for you. (It's not our place to condemn you because you didn't choose to believe, either. We will simply believe you are wrong ;) )


You know, the fact that so many Christians can't seem to agree on anything would be funny if it weren't so sad. :animeswea [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Yes, but to some people (even some Christians who are people too, but you know what I mean) Hell does not exist or is only temporary. What can happen to you when you're reincarnated is a completely different matter.

I don't mind discussing religion with other people. I like debates, I enjoy learning and helping others learn what I practice. That said I don't want to be told that I'm wrong if I haven't told the other person that they are wrong and I expect to be treated with respect when I'm discussing what I believe since that's what you'll get from me.

You can go ahead and tell me about hell all you want, but don't expect to convert me or believe what you say because honestly I don't expect to be believed about being an empath or healing someone's tongue piercing with Basil Oregano and cinnamon being burnt on a charcoal brasir. But if you want to go right ahead.

I don't like having religion being crammed down my throat and being told I'm going to Hell if I don't believe the way someone else does. I can't go to hell because I don't believe in Hell. I also can't worship Satan because I don't believe in Satan. Satan is a Christian belief. That's all I have to say until I come home from work tomorrow.[/color] :animesigh

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]I will concede, and admit that Christianity might be flawed -- I have no idea. But I do not think the flaw of the Bible is great enough to put a red stamp on Christianity and label it obsolete, flawed, and useless. I'm sure there will always be a slight flaw on anything humankind does; we aren't perfect, so of course following Jesus' exact words is impossible. All we can do is try our hardest, to lessen the degree of error we create, by following the law He gave.

I do not think the entire Bible is a sham, or too flawed to use -- I believe it's message is the most important, and not the mechanics by which everyone tends to get caught up in.[/SIZE][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Which message is that? I've read the bible and I've come back with many messages. Some times I get the feeling that God is a very bad entity (He repetedly orders people to kill in his name, or turns people into salt, or tries to wipe out the entire human race ((So far as I know, Satan never even came close to thst))) and that God wants to either convert or kill everyone not Christian, even if he maskes it instead of the obviousness of this message prevaliant in Islam and a few other religions. Other times I made out with an impression that God wants to spread peace and love (Which, I have come to conclude, means converting or killing everyone not Christian) so I don't really know what to think of Christianity and it's foundations. Maybe you should make clear which message you refer to.[/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

Maybe it's just my logical mind, but I have rejected religion as a whole. I am looked down upon sometimes because I am different. Would anyone want me to be just like them?

This is my honest opinion, take it as you will: Religion is a load of ****. I'm not trying to bash anyone that follows religion, but this is how I feel. I don't feel the need to believe what anyone else believes. Religion has killed so many, just to give some hope that there is something better than our miserable little lives.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Morpheus]Maybe it's just my logical mind, but I have rejected religion as a whole. I am looked down upon sometimes because I am different. Would anyone want me to be just like them?

This is my honest opinion, take it as you will: Religion is a load of ****. I'm not trying to bash anyone that follows religion, but this is how I feel. I don't feel the need to believe what anyone else believes. Religion has killed so many, just to give some hope that there is something better than our miserable little lives.[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]I have to agree with Morpheus [spoiler]Ryan[/spoiler] to an extent.

Yes in some ways religion is just a load of crap used to legitamise mass murders, suicide bombings and dissaproval. But to some people it's a way to keep sane in an insane world. People draw strength from their faith and use it to get through life. So while it may seem useless to some people, it's very useful to others. Not everyone uses religion in a violent manner.

I don't look down on Morpheus for believing what he does, I just don't agree with him. [/color]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Which message is that? I've read the bible and I've come back with many messages. Some times I get the feeling that God is a very bad entity (He repetedly orders people to kill in his name, or turns people into salt, or tries to wipe out the entire human race ((So far as I know, Satan never even came close to thst))) and that God wants to either convert or kill everyone not Christian, even if he maskes it instead of the obviousness of this message prevaliant in Islam and a few other religions. Other times I made out with an impression that God wants to spread peace and love (Which, I have come to conclude, means converting or killing everyone not Christian) so I don't really know what to think of Christianity and it's foundations. Maybe you should make clear which message you refer to.[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]In the Old Testament, he orders the Israelites to take back the Promised Land. The Israelites told the Canaanites to leave, but they stayed, and so they waged war. This is the equivalent of you leaving your house for a number of years, and return to it to see other people living in it. You tell them to leave, but they refuse, even upon sight of the deed. So, you take them to court, just as any person would. Going to court and waging war are analogous in this case, because in the Israelite's position, no court was going to move an entire nation.

As for the people into salt. God sent a messenger to the city, pleading with them to repent, to stop of their wicked ways. They basically told the messenger to go **** himself, and continued to do so, even after the messenger told them they would die for doing it. So... what happened? God killed them. Yes, very brutal, but this is because Jesus had not died for their sins yet, and so there was no real forgiving nature to God at that point. I don't really expect you to fully understand the Jesus dying for sins though...

God never said to kill anyone not Christian. The Bible was written during Judaic times, when Christianity was just a sect of Judiasm. And I'm certain he didn't tell Jesus and the disciples to go kill others in his name. If you speak of the Inquisition or the Crusades, that was people justifying murder through God. They did not act as Christians, and marred Christian reputation as a result. I thought that this was pretty much clear, that God didn't condone mass murder of Jews or Muslims or Gentiles -- men did that.

I don't understand at all when you mean "Spreading peace and love means killing everyone." As I said, God doesn't murder people in order to spread his word. It's humans, twisting the message to fit their wicked ends, like Hitler. Do you honestly think that God condoned the mass genocide? If you do, I find that completely blind, immature, and ludicrous.

Christianity's foundations are the Ten Commandments, and the Sermon on the Mount. I trust you know what the Ten Commandments are. As for Sermon on the Mount, Jesus is preaching the most essential message that we need today. Here, read up.

[QUOTE=Sermon on the Mount][SIZE=1][B]The Beatitudes[/B]

1And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


[b]Believers Are Salt and Light[/b]
13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.


[b]Christ Fulfills the Law[/b]
17 "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.


[b]Murder Begins in the Heart[/b]
21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.' 22But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, "Raca!' shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, "You fool!' shall be in danger of hell fire. 23Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison.
26Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny.


[b]Adultery in the Heart[/b]
27 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not commit adultery.'
28But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.


[b]Marriage Is Sacred and Binding[/b]
31 "Furthermore it has been said, "Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.' 32But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.


[b]Jesus Forbids Oaths[/b]
33 "Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, "You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.' 34But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God's throne; 35nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37But let your "Yes' be "Yes,' and your "No,' "No.' For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.


[b]Go the Second Mile[/b]
38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth.' 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40If anyone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, let him have your cloak also. 41And whoever compels you to go one mile, go with him two. 42Give to him who asks you, and from him who wants to borrow from you do not turn away.


[b]Love Your Enemies[/b]
43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.'
44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.

[b]Matthew 6[/b]


[b]Do Good to Please God[/b]
1 "Take heed that you do not do your charitable deeds before men, to be seen by them. Otherwise you have no reward from your Father in heaven. 2Therefore, when you do a charitable deed, do not sound a trumpet before you as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory from men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 3But when you do a charitable deed, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, 4that your charitable deed may be in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will Himself reward you openly.


[b]The Model Prayer[/b]
5 "And when you pray, you shall not be like the hypocrites. For they love to pray standing in the synagogues and on the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 6But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly. 7And when you pray, do not use vain repetitions as the heathen do. For they think that they will be heard for their many words.
8"Therefore do not be like them. For your Father knows the things you have need of before you ask Him. 9In this manner, therefore, pray:


Our Father in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.
10Your kingdom come.
Your will be done
On earth as it is in heaven.
11Give us this day our daily bread.
12And forgive us our debts,
As we forgive our debtors.
13And do not lead us into temptation,
But deliver us from the evil one.
For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.


14"For if you forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15But if you do not forgive men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.


[b]Fasting to Be Seen Only by God[/b]
16 "Moreover, when you fast, do not be like the hypocrites, with a sad countenance. For they disfigure their faces that they may appear to men to be fasting. Assuredly, I say to you, they have their reward. 17But you, when you fast, anoint your head and wash your face, 18so that you do not appear to men to be fasting, but to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.


[b]Lay Up Treasures in Heaven[/b]
19 "Do not lay up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy and where thieves break in and steal; 20but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust destroys and where thieves do not break in and steal. 21For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.


[b]The Lamp of the Body[/b]
22 "The lamp of the body is the eye. If therefore your eye is good, your whole body will be full of light. 23But if your eye is bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in you is darkness, how great is that darkness!


[b]You Cannot Serve God and Riches[/b]
24 "No one can serve two masters; for either he will hate the one and love the other, or else he will be loyal to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve God and mammon.


[b]Do Not Worry[/b]
25 "Therefore I say to you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or what you will drink; nor about your body, what you will put on. Is not life more than food and the body more than clothing? 26Look at the birds of the air, for they neither sow nor reap nor gather into barns; yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not of more value than they?
27Which of you by worrying can add one cubit to his stature?
28"So why do you worry about clothing? Consider the lilies of the field, how they grow: they neither toil nor spin; 29and yet I say to you that even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. 30Now if God so clothes the grass of the field, which today is, and tomorrow is thrown into the oven, will He not much more clothe you, O you of little faith?
31"Therefore do not worry, saying, "What shall we eat?' or "What shall we drink?' or "What shall we wear?' 32For after all these things the Gentiles seek. For your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33But seek first the kingdom of God and His righteousness, and all these things shall be added to you. 34Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about its own things. Sufficient for the day is its own trouble.

[b]Matthew 7[/b]


[b]Do Not Judge[/b]
1 "Judge not, that you be not judged. 2For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3And why do you look at the speck in your brother's eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye?
4Or how can you say to your brother, "Let me remove the speck from your eye'; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother's eye.
6"Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.


[b]Keep Asking, Seeking, Knocking[/b]
7 "Ask, and it will be given to you; seek, and you will find; knock, and it will be opened to you. 8For everyone who asks receives, and he who seeks finds, and to him who knocks it will be opened. 9Or what man is there among you who, if his son asks for bread, will give him a stone? 10Or if he asks for a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give good things to those who ask Him! 12Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets.


[b]The Narrow Way[/b]
13 "Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14Because arrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


[b]You Will Know Them by Their Fruits[/b]
15 "Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit.
19Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20Therefore by their fruits you will know them.


[b]I Never Knew You[/b]
21 "Not everyone who says to Me, "Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22Many will say to Me in that day, "Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' 23And then I will declare to them, "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'


[b]Build on the Rock[/b]
24 "Therefore whoever hears these sayings of Mine, and does them, I will liken him to a wise man who built his house on the rock: 25and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it did not fall, for it was founded on the rock.
26"But everyone who hears these sayings of Mine, and does not do them, will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand: 27and the rain descended, the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house; and it fell. And great was its fall."
28And so it was, when Jesus had ended these sayings, that the people were astonished at His teaching, 29for He taught them as one having authority, and not as the scribes.[/SIZE][/QUOTE][/SIZE]

[Latharix_sama]

I go to a Christian church, but that doesn't make me a Christian. We believe that you're not really a Christian until you're baptized.
I guess I'm in this faith because, well....my family has been that way for like, 5 generations or something...

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
In the Old Testament, he orders the Israelites to take back the Promised Land. The Israelites told the Canaanites to leave, but they stayed, and so they waged war. This is the equivalent of you leaving your house for a number of years, and return to it to see other people living in it. You tell them to leave, but they refuse, even upon sight of the deed. So, you take them to court, just as any person would. Going to court and waging war are analogous in this case, because in the Israelite's position, no court was going to move an entire nation.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
If I left my house, and my house belonged to me, was filled with my stuff, had my name on the Deed, than yes I'd be mighty pissed if they wouldn't leave. But the thing is that the Caananites (Oh, and by the way, the only cultur that Isreal was promised to was the Bedouin) had lived there for a few centuries. They had built their own cities and grown their own crops. The Isrealites themselves were just intruders in somone elses home, the Bedouin people were the only natives to the area, the Isrealites calling it their Promised Land is the equivilent of North Americans saying they are the natives of North America.
[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
As for the people into salt. God sent a messenger to the city, pleading with them to repent, to stop of their wicked ways. They basically told the messenger to go **** himself, and continued to do so, even after the messenger told them they would die for doing it. So... what happened? God killed them. Yes, very brutal, but this is because Jesus had not died for their sins yet, and so there was no real forgiving nature to God at that point. I don't really expect you to fully understand the Jesus dying for sins though...[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
So, what, is God some immature 5-year-old? Can't stand a little free will? In other words God is nothing but a Tyrant, if you don't do what he wants to kills you, correct? [/COLOR]

[QUOTE]

God never said to kill anyone not Christian. The Bible was written during Judaic times, when Christianity was just a sect of Judiasm. And I'm certain he didn't tell Jesus and the disciples to go kill others in his name. If you speak of the Inquisition or the Crusades, that was people justifying murder through God. They did not act as Christians, and marred Christian reputation as a result. I thought that this was pretty much clear, that God didn't condone mass murder of Jews or Muslims or Gentiles -- men did that.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I've said this once before, I think, but I'll say it again. What gives you the right to judge who is a Christian and who isn't? As far as most people are concerned, Christianity is defined by the belif that God is almighty and Jesus is his son, or somthing along those lines. The Inquisitioners were Christian in their mind without a doubt. The Cursaders, well, they were just trying to take back Jerusalem and the Holy Land because they couldn't hold it from the Islamic Warriors. What about the exile of all Jews from England by the mouth of the Archbishop of Canterbury? What about the fact that Jews were treated as second-class-citizens all across Christendom during the Middle Ages? The hardships of the Jews and the hands of the Christians goes back much further than Hitler. And even then, Hitler was Christian beyond a shadow of a doubt. Read Mien Kompf or listen to his speeches, he may not be your vision of the Perfect Christian but he was most certainly a Christain. [/COLOR]


[QUOTE]
I don't understand at all when you mean "Spreading peace and love means killing everyone." As I said, God doesn't murder people in order to spread his word. It's humans, twisting the message to fit their wicked ends, like Hitler. Do you honestly think that God condoned the mass genocide? If you do, I find that completely blind, immature, and ludicrous.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
And I think your blind, immature, and ludicrous for thinking that you have the right to judge who's a Christian and who isn't.[/COLOR]