Two Teens Hanged.

[Patronus]

What is this world coming to?

[url]http://portland.indymedia.org/en/2005/07/321936.shtml[/url]

Go to that article and read it.

If you're too lazy, then I'll summarize it for you: Two gay Iranian boys were hanged for the 'crime of being homosexual.'

In my mind, this is the sickest thing I have ever heard done to gays. These boys were only 16 and 18- and in their minds, they didn't know homosexuality was a crime.

And it isn't. You don't have to like gays, but you do have to respect us. We are humans. We love, we hate, we cry just like everyone else. The way we are treated should not be judged by the who we choose to love.

[QUOTE]"In the case of the two teens hanged in Mashhad, "They admitted having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defense that most young boys had sex with each other and tdhat they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death," according to the ISNA report as translated by OutRage. "Prior to their execution, the gay teenagers were held in prison for 14 months and severely beaten with 228 lashes. The length of their detention suggests that they committed the so-called offenses more than a year earlier, when they were possibly around the age of 16." [/QUOTE]

These boys were tortured because they had a love for one another, and because they were both boys. Even if you are a homophobe, can you justify this? And I know it's a different country, and they have different opinions, but homosexuals are being harrassed right here in the States as well.

My ex-manager- who's one of my friends- her brother was murdered for being gay. And let's face it, when you go to the court for a crime against a gay person, do you think they're going to favor you? More often than not, no, they aren't.

So let me send this out into the void. Homosexuals- either me or women- are people. Treat them as that.


Now, this isn't a "Is Homosexuality Right or Wrong?" thread, so don't turn it into one. What is your opinion on this action?

[kenshinsbabe]

[SIZE=3][FONT=Georgia]Wow...I don't think I've ever read anything more disguisting than that article. Boys-anyone, actually-shouldn't be punished for who they love and what they do with that person.

Unfortunately, while there are quite a few...choice words I would like to say, saying them won't do any good. Their government thinks it's right to kill those who are different, and speaking against them won't have any effect, because it would be a government against me. So, while I do believe this is a vile, disgusting reason to end human life, there's nothing I can do.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[vegeta rocker]

wow, i am just amazed by this whole thing. I didn't know it was a crime over there, but then again i don't keep up with that area too much.

I think this was a horrendous thing and i am saddened by it. The apocalypse really can't come too soon i think sometimes. I am scared by this is so many ways.

[Retribution]

[SIZE=1]Extremely sickening. And whatever happened to [b]acceptance?[/b] Everyone's talking about "homosexuals should be tolerated and understood, etc," when acceptance is what humans should have, not tolerance like some dog.[/SIZE]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

I read over the article with a mixture of sadness and disbelief, sadness at the loss of two young lives and disbelief that such an act would be carried out and considered an appropriate punishment. I disagree with homosexuality on a fundamental level, I do this not because I'm a homophobe but because my faith requires me to. But by that same token I do not regard the life of a person who is homosexual as being any less precious and sacred than anyone else's, because my faith also stipulates I do.

I oppose capital punishment vehemently, because life is something that nobody has the right to take from another, regardless of whether or not it's sanctioned by law. But the customs and laws of Iran are the customs and laws of Iran, and I have no right to say that they are wrong because I disagree with them, the fact is that I must respect their customs as I would anyone else's because it is a basic right of all people. It saddens me to no end that two young men lost their lives because they chose to break the law with their relationship, but they chose to pursue such a relationship when they more than likely knew it was against the law.

I say this because it was stated that [B]four-thousand[/B] homosexual people have been executed in Iran for being homosexual, so it is more than likely that they were aware that it was a crime. Still it is a sad loss when a country murders it's own people and uses the law to justify it. [/SIZE]

[Dagger]

Gavin, I think you may need to sit back for a moment and consider what you just wrote. From what I can tell, you are implying that they decided to break the law and that what happened was simply the inevitable and unfortunate consequence of what they did. This perspective on the issue sort of staggers me, frankly, so I'll just leave off here for the time being. I'm not really sure what else to say.

~Dagger~

[Petie]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]While I don't agree with what was done to those young men, Gavin is in a way, right. I don't agree with his entire view because I don't feel that it is an unfortunate consequence of their actions nor do I feel it was inevitable. I do feel that they knowingly broke the law though. The real matter at hand is that there shouldn't be a law against homosexuality to begin with.[/color][/font]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]Though in a way, if someone were to commit a crime in the United States, you would expect the person(s) who committed it to be punished wouldn't you? We don't question that it is against the law to rob a bank here and I guess that most people just accept the law that you can't be a homosexual there. These two men did not accept the law. The difference here is that they shouldn't have to accept it to begin with. And I'm going to stop here because I think I just sort of contradicted myself...[/color][/font]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Dagger]Gavin, I think you may need to sit back for a moment and consider what you just wrote. From what I can tell, you are implying that they decided to break the law and that what happened was simply the inevitable and unfortunate consequence of what they did. This perspective on the issue sort of staggers me, frankly, so I'll just leave off here for the time being. I'm not really sure what else to say.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Perhaps that didn't come out as clear as I would have liked it to, but what I was saying in essence was that if four-thousand people have been murdered for being homosexual then the two young men couldn't really plead that they were not aware it was illegal. I wasn't referring to anything anyone here had said, but to something in the article itself, I'll quote it to so it makes more sense.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE]According to Iranian human rights campaigners, over 4000 lesbians and gay men have been executed since the Ayatollahs seized power in 1979.

They admitted having gay sex (probably under torture) but claimed in their defense that most young boys had sex with each other and that they were not aware that homosexuality was punishable by death,"[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]I'm just saying that if four-thousand people were killed for being homosexual then it is unlikely that these two young men were unaware it was illegal. I'm not saying it's impossible there weren't aware, but such a large number of murders for one reason would in my mind disseminate the knowledge that such acts were in fact illegal. If they were truly unaware it was illegal then the loss of life is ever more saddening.[/SIZE]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Dagger, when you look at it in an objective light, and remove the fact that this is a brutal, horrific, and thoroughly undeserved punishment for something which deserves no punishment, then Gavin is correct. The boys could not have been unaware of the punishment meted out to those who were homosexual. There is [b]no way[/b] that they could have failed to be aware of that. In our minds, does the punishment fit the 'crime'? Absolutely not. But, what we think doesn't matter. Just because somebody thinks they can fly, doesn't mean they can. The brutal reality of the situation, is that they knowingly broke the law, were caught, and punished according to the tenets of their system, no matter whether it is fair to our minds or not.[/size]

[Patronus]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1]Dagger, when you look at it in an objective light, and remove the fact that this is a brutal, horrific, and thoroughly undeserved punishment for something which deserves no punishment, then Gavin is correct. The boys could not have been unaware of the punishment meted out to those who were homosexual. There is [b]no way[/b'] that they could have failed to be aware of that. In our minds, does the punishment fit the 'crime'? Absolutely not. But, what we think doesn't matter. Just because somebody thinks they can fly, doesn't mean they can. The brutal reality of the situation, is that they knowingly broke the law, were caught, and punished according to the tenets of their system, no matter whether it is fair to our minds or not.[/size][/quote]

I get what you're saying.

But do you blame the boys? It's human nature to long for sexual activity, and who knows- these boys might have been in love.

[Petie]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]Baron, you said exactly what I was trying to say in a much better way.[/color][/font]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]And Patronus, I don't think anyone is blaming the boys for doing what they did, only pointing out the fact that it was a punishable offence in their country and that they knew that at the time.[/color][/font]

[Patronus]

[QUOTE=Petie][font=Verdana][color=blue]Baron, you said exactly what I was trying to say in a much better way.[/color][/font]

[font=Verdana][color=blue]And Patronus, I don't think anyone is blaming the boys for doing what they did, only pointing out the fact that it was a punishable offence in their country and that they knew that at the time.[/color][/font][/QUOTE]

Oh, I know no one was blaming them- I meant, like, wouldn't you do it if you loved someone?

[Dagger]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1]Dagger, when you look at it in an objective light, and remove the fact that this is a brutal, horrific, and thoroughly undeserved punishment for something which deserves no punishment, then Gavin is correct. The boys could not have been unaware of the punishment meted out to those who were homosexual. There is [b]no way[/b'] that they could have failed to be aware of that. In our minds, does the punishment fit the 'crime'? Absolutely not. But, what we think doesn't matter. Just because somebody thinks they can fly, doesn't mean they can. The brutal reality of the situation, is that they knowingly broke the law, were caught, and punished according to the tenets of their system, no matter whether it is fair to our minds or not.[/size][/quote]
I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around this. I wish I could formulate a better argument, but my reaction to what he said is a little more on the visceral side.

The first thing I don't understand is why what we think doesn't matter. To me it seems like you and others are saying that we as outsiders cannot judge this situation as being wrong. Or, to put it differently, I feel as though if everyone throughout history had the type of attitude being presented here, no progress would have ever been made. The main sense I got from Gavin's post was "Well, it's an unfair law, but for their own sake they just shouldn't have done it in the first place."

I submit that there are times when defying the law is the right thing to do. Gay sex may not seem to be as noble a cause as, say, the Underground Railroad, but loving who you want to love without getting killed for it is in my opinion just as valid a thing to fight for as women's suffrage and other inherently personal rights. That's why reducing it to a matter of breaking the law and being punished for it really rubs me the wrong way.

It's not an incorrect way of looking at the situation, but to me it seems rather callous. Traditions & customs are all very well, but they can't be used to excuse everything. I feel that it's perfectly within my rights to look at their law, whatever it stems from, and say flat-out that I think it's morally abhorrent.

~Dagger~

[wrist cutter]

[QUOTE=Patronus]
You don't have to like gays, but you do have to respect us.[/QUOTE]

I don't respect anyone, why should I make a special case for gays?

[Semjaza]

I agree with Dagger's take on this, although I'm not seeing where it says these guys loved eachother in the first place. For all we know they were just trying to get off. I wouldn't naturally assume to heterosexual people were having sex for any love-based/"righteous" reasons either.

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I basically agree with Dagger, in the sense that sometimes people should be willing to put their humanity and relationships before discriminatory laws.

Whether they knew about the anti-gay laws or not is questionable, because I can imagine this sort of thing not being openly discussed in the country. I mean, we don't know under what circumstances other gay people have been arrested, you know? Perhaps they lived in a more remote area, or were never aware of other gay people being arrested. *shrug*

In any case, it's obviously a horrible thing. It reminds me of the laws from Afghanistan under the Taliban regime, which were insanely restrictive and basically anti-freedom in every sense of the word.[/font]

[Petie]

[color=blue]I was never saying that what they did was wrong, only looking at the situation from more than one perspective. I agree that they should have had the right to do what they did with no penalty at all. It's just too bad that wasn't the case...[/color]

[Kamuro]

[SIZE=1]Well, I'd hate to bring this up, but a person loving another person and being persecuted for it isn't anything new. Maybe this time it was taken to an extreme and that's why more people took notice to it, but otherwise we should all be use to it by now. I'm not saying it's right, not at all, but after reading it I wasn't at all surprised. In our own country we're just now coming to terms with allowing homosexuals to marry, some of us anyway. We've made great strides in this area yet other places have yet to come to the same conclusions. Democracy and freedom obviously aren't a worldwide ideal, despite George Bush's aspirations. The freedoms we've come to know, and some of us abuse, aren't available to people such as this. What we believe to be wrong, they believe to be justice, and they veiw our practices just the same. However wrong it is, who are we to judge? America's history is far from perfect, and what they're doing now is what we've done in the past, so maybe a little compassion is in order.

And as stated above, anyone with decent brainpower might take slight notice to the execution of 4,000 homosexuals in their country. If what they did wasn't wrong, they sure felt the need to lie about it and attempt to falsly justify it. Sure it sounds harsh, but lying and attempting to decieve the government is no way to avoid further prosecution, in any situation.[/SIZE]

[Corey]

[quote name='Kamuro][SIZE=1']Well, I'd hate to bring this up, but a person loving another person and being persecuted for it isn't anything new. Maybe this time it was taken to an extreme and that's why more people took notice to it, but otherwise we should all be use to it by now. I'm not saying it's right, not at all, but after reading it I wasn't at all surprised. In our own country we're just now coming to terms with allowing homosexuals to marry, some of us anyway. We've made great strides in this area yet other places have yet to come to the same conclusions. Democracy and freedom obviously aren't a worldwide ideal, despite George Bush's aspirations. The freedoms we've come to know, and some of us abuse, aren't available to people such as this. What we believe to be wrong, they believe to be justice, and they veiw our practices just the same. However wrong it is, who are we to judge? America's history is far from perfect, and what they're doing now is what we've done in the past, so maybe a little compassion is in order.[/SIZE][/quote]

[size=1]Precisely.
Well said in every single word.[/size]

[Rasetsutaisho]

the fact is most of the ppl in this world are lame.. in one way or another... we all do things that tottaly annoy other ppl... for some its sexuality... for others its the way they drive... the point here isnt how ppl dont need to be gay... its that not enough ppl give concideration to how their actions directly effect the lives of other ppl... thats the basics of karma... its more than just some magical force... its a system of cause and effect...

i didnt actualy bother to read much of the posts here... but i think i gathered enought to know that two kids were hanged for being homosexual? am i right... we'll the only thing i can think of right now is tactics... kinda like ninjas... you dont need to be obvious about everything you do... and if you're aware enough about your suroundings then you can use it like a tool...

its not always wise to bust out and be like "BAM! IM GAY WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT!!?!?!" thats how you get hanged when you're in a place that doesnt accept the way you choose to be... but if yer tactical about it you can be secretive and live...

[Rasetsutaisho]

[quote name='James][font=franklin gothic medium']In any case, it's obviously a horrible thing. It reminds me of the laws from Afghanistan under the Taliban regime, which were insanely restrictive and basically anti-freedom in every sense of the word.[/font][/quote]

i think marylin manson would punch you in the face... honestly laws are only restrictive when you go against them... i belive that country is trying to preserve a more pure and simple way of life... if you know anything about history you'd know that just about every civilization falls apart right after or when their about to reach their peak... just look at the roman empire... and look how much it mirrors our own!

i know this is off topic but... i think their really wise in doing things like keeping women covered up all the time! i mean take an honest look back in your life... how many of your problems had something to do with some girl that you liked? and did you even really like her? ... that whole problem wouldnt have even happend if the girl was covered!

im not saying we need to switch to that what im saying is its sickning to see some one be so double minded... you accept gays? but not ppl with a different way of life?

besides that its not like they live anywhere near us... we dont have to worry about it that much

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Rasetsutaisho']the fact is most of the ppl in this world are lame.. in one way or another... we all do things that tottaly annoy other ppl... for some its sexuality... for others its the way they drive... the point here isnt how ppl dont need to be gay... its that not enough ppl give concideration to how their actions directly effect the lives of other ppl... thats the basics of karma... its more than just some magical force... its a system of cause and effect... [/quote]

Rasetsutaisho, did you just imply that these two young men died because they [i]annoyed[/i] the religious/political leaders of Iran? Couldn?t your argument be contextually supporting the decision of said Islamic government? I mean, ?who are these two gay men, and why do they think they can rupture our status quo??

[quote name='Rasetsutaisho']i didnt actualy bother to read much of the posts here... but i think i gathered enought to know that two kids were hanged for being homosexual? [/quote]
That?s vividly obvious.
[QUOTE=Rasetsutaisho]
am i right... we'll the only thing i can think of right now is tactics... kinda like ninjas... you dont need to be obvious about everything you do... and if you're aware enough about your suroundings then you can use it like a tool...

its not always wise to bust out and be like "BAM! IM GAY WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT!!?!?!" thats how you get hanged when you're in a place that doesnt accept the way you choose to be... but if yer tactical about it you can be secretive and live...[/QUOTE]
Not only did you imply the two young men were killed for ?annoying? the tyrants responsible for their deaths, but you also cast them as ignorant fools who openly paraded their homosexuality. I think most people would agree with me in saying, if you carry an unpopular belief, why should you be afraid to hide it?

Two men are killed in Iran for being homosexual? Honestly, big surprise there. I mean, if anyone is the poster-child for diversity and equality it?s the Islamic Theocracies of the Middle East, am I right? Although I?d hate to label Islam as a religion of intolerance; there are millions of Muslims willing to forget a few lines of the Koran and live their lives in relative peace.

[James]

[quote name='Rasetsutaisho']i think marylin manson would punch you in the face... honestly laws are only restrictive when you go against them... i belive that country is trying to preserve a more pure and simple way of life... if you know anything about history you'd know that just about every civilization falls apart right after or when their about to reach their peak... just look at the roman empire... and look how much it mirrors our own! [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]What has Marilyn Manson got to do with it? lol.

Anyway, your argument here is ridiculous and shows that you [i]don't[/i] know much about history. A more "pure" and "simple" way of life means executing people who are only being themselves? Yeah, that's pure and simple alright. Why don't we go and kill all of the other minorities while we're at it? Or how about we kill people who marry someone that we don't like? How far do you take the process of "pure and simple"?[/font]

[quote]
i know this is off topic but... i think their really wise in doing things like keeping women covered up all the time! i mean take an honest look back in your life... how many of your problems had something to do with some girl that you liked? and did you even really like her? ... that whole problem wouldnt have even happend if the girl was covered![/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]That doesn't even make any sense and I'm assuming that you are joking.[/font]
[quote]
im not saying we need to switch to that what im saying is its sickning to see some one be so double minded... you accept gays? but not ppl with a different way of life?[/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]So you're equating homosexuals with what? Killing people who you disagree with? No, tolerance and equality aren't so selective.

What's sickening is that you're unable to make the distinction here. You can't on the one hand tell me that I should respect people's different social system and simultaneously tell me that this means I should also respect the murder of innocent people for no reason other than raw biggotry.[/font]

[quote]
besides that its not like they live anywhere near us... we dont have to worry about it that much[/QUOTE]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Sure, why worry about people who are so far away? I mean, I'm probably never going to go to Iran or meet any of the people who are directly impacted by this, so why bother?

Thank god there [i]are[/i] people who bother worrying about those who are out of direct sight. You can't tell me to be open-minded when you make a decidedly close-minded statement like that. lol

And please, do not double post. It's against the rules. There's a link on the left navigation menu for that, I do recommend that you read it.[/font]

[quote]And as stated above, anyone with decent brainpower might take slight notice to the execution of 4,000 homosexuals in their country. [/quote]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I wouldn't be so sure. Don't forget the thousands of other people who are killed each year in Iran, for a myriad of other "crimes".

I mean, I think they probably did know it was illegal, I'm just pointing out that they didn't [i]necessarily[/i] know and that it might be possible not to be aware of it, especially at a young age.

While we're on this subject, I think it is [i]slightly[/i] incorrect to simply say that Iran and some other countries "aren't as far along as we are", in a social sense. Do not forget that Iran wasn't always as restrictive as it is now. Before the revolution, Iran was significantly more open and socially developed - it wasn't required for women to wear the head scarf (and many didn't). Moreover, the education system was more equal among genders and so on.

It was only post-revolution that many of these things regressed once more. So, it's not entirely accurate to think that the laws in Iran were always like this or that there hasn't been any social development. The sad thing is that Iran has actually regressed further into this state, compared to what it was becoming pre-revolution.[/font]

[Ezekiel]

[COLOR=#F84E20][SIZE=1]Okay, I didn't want to reply to this thread at first because I knew someone would say something to really rile me. I think that what has happened to these boys, and any others that are persecuted for their differences, is utterly wrong, no matter what part of the world you are in. I accept it is the law of their country, but morally I just don?t understand it.

[QUOTE=Rasetsutaisho]i think marylin manson would punch you in the face... honestly laws are only restrictive when you go against them... i belive that country is trying to preserve a more pure and simple way of life... if you know anything about history you'd know that just about every civilization falls apart right after or when their about to reach their peak... just look at the roman empire... and look how much it mirrors our own!

i know this is off topic but... i think their really wise in doing things like keeping women covered up all the time! i mean take an honest look back in your life... how many of your problems had something to do with some girl that you liked? and did you even really like her? ... that whole problem wouldnt have even happend if the girl was covered!

im not saying we need to switch to that what im saying is its sickning to see some one be so double minded... you accept gays? but not ppl with a different way of life?

besides that its not like they live anywhere near us... we dont have to worry about it that much[/QUOTE]

Now, you, my friend, are an idiot. Sorry, mods, but it's true. What kind of a comment is this? You have no idea what you're talking about!

"A pure and simple way of life"? Do you know whom you sound like? Adolf Hitler. Shall I tell you who he is since your grasp on history seems to vastly differ other peoples?

Hitler was head of the National Socialist German Workers Party; also know as the Nazi Party. He was the polar opposite of the idea of Communism, being put into play in Russia (and failing miserably due to Stalin's tyrannical rule and disregard for his peoples lives). Hitler believed in one [I]pure race[/I], the Aryan race, which had blonde hair, blue eyes and no blood in their bodies apart from German.

Hitler killed Jews, he killed gypsies and he killed homosexuals. These people had done nothing wrong, they were living out their lives but they were massacred because Hitler himself did not believe that they fit in with his "pure race". Most of this self-proclaimed pure race weren?t all that pure, anyway. In fact, the leader of the SA, Ernst Rohm was found with another man when Hitler raided the headquarters as he rose to dictatorship.

Now, you are saying they want a pure and simple way of life? Okay, so they won't hunt down and hang rapists and murderers but they'll kill innocent boys who happened to be drawn to each other? Yes, that sounds pure and simple to me. God, I would just love to live somewhere like that. No, actually, I'd probably be dead.

[QUOTE]i know this is off topic but... i think their really wise in doing things like keeping women covered up all the time! i mean take an honest look back in your life... how many of your problems had something to do with some girl that you liked? and did you even really like her? ... that whole problem wouldnt have even happend if the girl was covered![/QUOTE]

I'm not even going to start because this has made me so unbelievably angry. You little chauvinistic pig. You say that it's the girls fault because [I]you[/I] like her and [I]she[/I] messed your life up just because she was pretty. Just...Jesus, read some books. And while you're at it, research Persia; in their ancient history it was acceptable to be homosexual. And they weren't called homosexual, they were men who had sex with other men. Also, as a side note, incest and homosexuality was big in ancient Rome, too.

[QUOTE]im not saying we need to switch to that what im saying is its sickning to see some one be so double minded... you accept gays? but not ppl with a different way of life?[/QUOTE]

I believe the term is [B]close minded[/B]. And we are not that, as we are not gay, homosexuality is a different way of life. We accept that. Got it? What we don't accept is the brutal punishment for a law that really is way behind in its time. Yes, I realise they broke the law but to have the punishment be so harsh in this modern day world when [I]morally[/I] they hadn't done anything wrong...it just baffles me, it really does.

I'm also deeply sorry to see that there are people like you, Mr Rasetsutaisho, who ramble about BS that way. James, you hit the nail on the head but I had to add my bit in.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Hells Angel]

[COLOR=DarkOrange][FONT=Comic Sans MS][B]I think that hanging people just because of who they love or care about, and just because the person they love is the same sex, is so wrong. They had [U]ABSOLUTELY[/U] (sp) no right to do that to those kids. This is so sad..what is this world comming to.. :animecry: [/B][/FONT][/COLOR][B]