Two Teens Hanged.

[Delta]

[COLOR=FireBrick][SIZE=1]Calm down. What you just got is a first-hand look at how the minds of [i]those[/i] guys in Iran more or less tick. Their set of laws and beliefs is different from yours and mine and that's why we could never probably understand why they allowed the hanging to happen, or why Rasetsutaisho here reacted the way he/she did.

[quote name='Patronus']Oh, I know no one was blaming them- I meant, like, wouldn't you do it if you loved someone?[/quote]Hold on there, cowboy! What about casual sex? Sex for lust or curiosity's sake? What if those boys were actually straight? Mmm hmm.

[b]LOVE ≠ SEX[/b]

With an average of 153 people execute every year for the same crime, I'm willing to bet those two boys knew what 's in store if they get caught. What they probably didn't know was that somebody besides the two of them knew what happened.

For the record, Hells Angel, they [i]did[/i] have the right to hang them. They absolutely did.

What irks me the most is that their government, seeing that what they were doing was getting bad publicity, tried to charge them with statutory rape (that's what it's called, yeah?)! It's like they were hell-bent on wrapping nooses around these boys' necks. That's a very sad and desperate attempt to save their faces.

[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Hells Angel]

[QUOTE]For the record, Hells Angel, they did have the right to hang them. They absolutely did.[/QUOTE]

[B]Thats your opinion Revue, but no one deserves to die, sex is a natural thing, so what that they are the same sex, it gives [U]NO ONE[/U] the right to hang them. Everyone should be able to love who ever they want to. Love shouldnt be a crime, sex shouldnt be a crime![/B]

But that is just my opinion, I respect your opinion, but I just think its wrong to hang kids. They are young and deserve to live their life.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][quote=Patronus]I get what you're saying.

But do you blame the boys? It's human nature to long for sexual activity, and who knows- these boys might have been in love.[/quote]Absolutely not. Why would I blame them?
[quote=Dagger]I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around this. I wish I could formulate a better argument, but my reaction to what he said is a little more on the visceral side.

The first thing I don't understand is why what we think doesn't matter. To me it seems like you and others are saying that we as outsiders cannot judge this situation as being wrong. Or, to put it differently, I feel as though if everyone throughout history had the type of attitude being presented here, no progress would have ever been made. The main sense I got from Gavin's post was "Well, it's an unfair law, but for their own sake they just shouldn't have done it in the first place."[/quote]
Will what we think make any difference to what has happened? This isn't Britain we're talking about. It's Iran. They will not be pressured into changing themselves. Of course we all can, and should, judge this event. This is a terrible event. But it doesn't make any difference what we think about it. In solid reality, the reality that these two boys were hanged, the fact that we are disgusted doesn't change anything. [b]Thats[/b] what I was saying.
[quote name='Rasetsutaisho']i didnt actualy bother to read much of the posts here... but i think i gathered enought to know that two kids were hanged for being homosexual? am i right... we'll the only thing i can think of right now is tactics... kinda like ninjas... you dont need to be obvious about everything you do... and if you're aware enough about your suroundings then you can use it like a tool...[/quote] Really? You didn't bother to read the posts? I would never have guessed...
[quote name='Rasetsutaisho']i think marylin manson would punch you in the face... honestly laws are only restrictive when you go against them... i belive that country is trying to preserve a more pure and simple way of life... if you know anything about history you'd know that just about every civilization falls apart right after or when their about to reach their peak... just look at the roman empire... and look how much it mirrors our own![/quote]Oh, I suppose you and Manson are on lose terms then? You have no idea what you're talking about...give up now.

There is a huge difference between not accepting a brutal, despotic system, and between supporting the right of people to live unoppressed. It is the difference between supporting freedom, and throwing down oppression.[/size]

[Pumpkin]

[SIZE=1][QUOTE=Dagger]
The first thing I don't understand is why what we think doesn't matter. To me it seems like you and others are saying that we as outsiders cannot judge this situation as being wrong. Or, to put it differently, I feel as though if everyone throughout history had the type of attitude being presented here, no progress would have ever been made. The main sense I got from Gavin's post was "Well, it's an unfair law, but for their own sake they just shouldn't have done it in the first place."

It's not an incorrect way of looking at the situation, but to me it seems rather callous. Traditions & customs are all very well, but they can't be used to excuse everything. I feel that it's perfectly within my rights to look at their law, whatever it stems from, and say flat-out that I think it's morally abhorrent. [/QUOTE]
Dagger, I officially love you now. Seriously, she is right. If everyone just sat on their butt and said "It's not my problem, It doesn't deal with us, and it'll all work out" do you think anything would get done? People can help, and sometimes the government there is too strong that they need help to break away. Look at Iraq for example, it was a mess with the Taliban and only with a good government will they get to break away and finally have freedom. You think people like living that way? I'm sure they don't. Women get stoned for reasons that are ridiculous.

Also, for the person who said that America went through a similar time. Well, yes I can see your point. But you also forgot one thing, we had HELP too. How did we win a lot of wars? With help. It isn't as easy as you pointed it out to be. I'll just say that.

[QUOTE=Rasetsutaisho]i think marylin manson would punch you in the face... honestly laws are only restrictive when you go against them... i belive that country is trying to preserve a more pure and simple way of life... if you know anything about history you'd know that just about every civilization falls apart right after or when their about to reach their peak... just look at the roman empire... and look how much it mirrors our own!

i know this is off topic but... i think their really wise in doing things like keeping women covered up all the time! i mean take an honest look back in your life... how many of your problems had something to do with some girl that you liked? and did you even really like her? ... that whole problem wouldnt have even happend if the girl was covered![/QUOTE]
Excuse me, but I would seriously slap you if I had the chance. But honestly, James and Imi pretty much statted most of my arguement. First off, like stated above, if nobody took care of their country and just waited until this "empire" died, how long do you think that will last? so people are just suppose to suffer through a regime praying one day their prayers will be anwsered? Uh, I don't think so.

Second off, the second paragraph really made me angry. Being the independent woman that I am, I don't feel that covering up a woman's figure is right. What makes a woman's body less then a man's? Is it her fault that she is good-looking? I don't believe in not having the right to wear what I want, and would find that lifestyle most unpleasant. Not "Pure" and "Simple" as you so call it.

Overall I don't think it's right to hang the kids. I understand the law, but that doesn't make it morally right. In fact, its downright disgusting.
[/SIZE]

[Hells Angel]

[QUOTE]Second off, the second paragraph really made me angry. Being the independent woman that I am, I don't feel that covering up a woman's figure is right. What makes a woman's body less then a man's? Is it her fault that she is good-looking? I don't believe in not having the right to wear what I want, and would find that lifestyle most unpleasant. Not "Pure" and "Simple" as you so call it.[/QUOTE]

[B]I completely agree with you, wearing what you want is a way to express yourself, the person you are inside. I think everyone should have the right to express themselves, no matter how that may be, and for other people not to judge them.[/B]

[Hells Angel]

[FONT=Comic Sans MS][COLOR=DarkOrange][B]Is it so bad to be gay? Why must we judge others just because of who they love? Why must be kill others just because they had sex with the same gender? Why must this world be corrupted with such cruel people that they would do that to teenagers, hang them for no reason, other than love and sex?[/B][/COLOR][/FONT]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=RoyalBlue]
I'm merging this thread with the previous "Two teens hanged" one. - Hack Helba[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Sandy]

It's shocking to see that a part of the world still lives in the medieval times, isn't it?

I find it odd that this issue hasn't been discussed in the past, but on the other hand it's good that it came up now, so that people can really perceive the barbaric laws that are in effect in islamic countries.

I'm not saying that the World Police should attack Iran next (because what would that solve?), I'm saying that international pressure should put upon the middle-eastern countries to change their laws according to the human rights, simply because living up to the human rights doesn't do any harm to anybody but much good to everybody.

Gawd, didn't I just sound naïvely idealistic there? Too bad the world doesn't work that way...

[Patronus]

[QUOTE=Rasetsutaisho]the fact is most of the ppl in this world are lame.. in one way or another... we all do things that tottaly annoy other ppl... for some its sexuality... for others its the way they drive... the point here isnt how ppl dont need to be gay... its that not enough ppl give concideration to how their actions directly effect the lives of other ppl... thats the basics of karma... its more than just some magical force... its a system of cause and effect...

i didnt actualy bother to read much of the posts here... but i think i gathered enought to know that two kids were hanged for being homosexual? am i right... we'll the only thing i can think of right now is tactics... kinda like ninjas... you dont need to be obvious about everything you do... and if you're aware enough about your suroundings then you can use it like a tool...

its not always wise to bust out and be like "BAM! IM GAY WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT!!?!?!" thats how you get hanged when you're in a place that doesnt accept the way you choose to be... but if yer tactical about it you can be secretive and live...[/QUOTE]

That's not what happened... I would say it'd be good to read the actual article.

[Kamuro]

[QUOTE=James]While we're on this subject, I think it is [i]slightly[/i] incorrect to simply say that Iran and some other countries "aren't as far along as we are", in a social sense. Do not forget that Iran wasn't always as restrictive as it is now. Before the revolution, Iran was significantly more open and socially developed - it wasn't required for women to wear the head scarf (and many didn't). Moreover, the education system was more equal among genders and so on.

It was only post-revolution that many of these things regressed once more. So, it's not entirely accurate to think that the laws in Iran were always like this or that there hasn't been any social development. The sad thing is that Iran has actually regressed further into this state, compared to what it was becoming pre-revolution.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Agreed. They have regressed from the prior strides made in the areas of freedom and gender entanglement, yet even at it's best it was far from our own. I'm not taking a "holier then thou" attitude, it's simply fact. Our biggest gender worries consist of "even" wages in the workplace and such, yet in Iran they finally let women walk around without covering their faces! yay! I'm not justifying their actions, merely advocating some understanding, since our own country has exemplified similar segregation in the past.

They can call it a revolution, but I'm not sure I'd even go to that extent. A revolution represents some kind of progression, a change for the better, not a step backwards. As you mentioned, they'd just began to open up socially yet now are going in the wrong direction and secluding themselves from other countries.

As for other people's comments, I figured Rasetsutaisho would get butchered, and rightly so. People need to think of one another, a perfect example is Africa. They're having so many problems, should we just sit back and let them die or try our best to lend a hand and abolish their poverty. If not for economical reasons then for moral ones.

The comment about covering women was utterly ridiculous, and I felt the need to apologize for men everywhere after reading it. Your basis of thought concerned only men and how all their problems stemmed from the uncovered faces of the opposite sex. I doubt one of the essentials for world peace is the covering of women's skin. Although this was off topic, it does deal with treating one another equally. Whether it's men or women, heterosexual or homosexual, people have the right to be treated equally. Having certain beliefs or ideals does not give people the right to degrade them for it. Relate the situation to whatever you like, anything that helps you to understand the right's of other human beings.[/SIZE]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Dagger]I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around this. I wish I could formulate a better argument, but my reaction to what he said is a little more on the visceral side.

The first thing I don't understand is why what we think doesn't matter. To me it seems like you and others are saying that we as outsiders cannot judge this situation as being wrong. Or, to put it differently, I feel as though if everyone throughout history had the type of attitude being presented here, no progress would have ever been made. The main sense I got from Gavin's post was "Well, it's an unfair law, but for their own sake they just shouldn't have done it in the first place."

I submit that there are times when defying the law is the right thing to do. Gay sex may not seem to be as noble a cause as, say, the Underground Railroad, but loving who you want to love without getting killed for it is in my opinion just as valid a thing to fight for as women's suffrage and other inherently personal rights. That's why reducing it to a matter of breaking the law and being punished for it really rubs me the wrong way.

It's not an incorrect way of looking at the situation, but to me it seems rather callous. Traditions & customs are all very well, but they can't be used to excuse everything. I feel that it's perfectly within my rights to look at their law, whatever it stems from, and say flat-out that I think it's morally abhorrent.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[color=darkslateblue] What I think a lot of people need to realize is that it is equally bad to force one culture's beliefs and ideas on taboo subjects such as this onto another culture. What you believe is morally abhorrent in another culture...is only saying that it conflicts with what you have grown up believing.

In all truth, I'm totally against this sort of treatment towards gay people. The fact that people torture suspects in order to find out whether they had gay sex and then use that to kill them is disgusting to me.

But really, perfectly within your rights? Whatever it stems from?

I'm guessing that this stems from religion, and it is a well-known fact that it is people that distort and abuse religion, and we can't help that. We can't go over there and expect them to all of a sudden agree with us that killing gays is wrong. That is our belief. It is crushing to us that actions such as these exist when it is so against what we believe, but if we were to force one, same culture over the world... it is the same as stripping away freedom.

I realize that I know what I am saying is totally radical, but please know that I am extremely saddened that people are dying because they are gay (or having gay sex). To my mind, it is something that is 100% wrong in my eyes, and that I yearning to just right a post saying 'everyone should be open-minded and except gays!'. But the fact that we cannot accept their customs, however horrible it may seem to us, is close-minded.

This is another country. A totally different culture. How can we just intrude upon it?

And in all words I also realize how arrogant this post seems, that I am doing this just to be open-minded.

*head/desk*

This is what studying post-colonial literature for three weeks does to you.

It overwhelms me, all this stuff you learn from different people and classes and your own thoughts, and you have no idea how you should ever connect them in a way that works.[/color]

[Dagger]

[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism][u]Moral relativism[/u][/url] can only be carried so far before it becomes completely ridiculous. I don't think I'm being close-minded by asserting that [i]I personally believe[/i] people should not have to die brutally for their sexual behavior--customs, traditions, time & place be damned.

To me your post doesn't necessarily seem arrogant, contrary to what you said (although the argument you're advancing does in a way smack of condescension, as it suggests Iranian society is so far removed from and so utterly unlike ours that there's simply no moral/cultural common ground and we must therefore blindly accept things like this as being "different" rather than wrong); it just seems apathetic.

Moreover, as James mentioned (and now I'm speaking in a broader sense), it's not like Iran has been an uber-repressed society for thousands and thousands of years. I just don't see how "Oh, it's their culture" works as an adequate excuse for either them doing it or for us not condemning it... one could just as easily categorize the situation in North Korea (closed country, brainwashing, laws & policies which cause countless people to suffer in countless ways) as some kind of cultural thing that we simply have to tolerate because we're oh-so-civilized and enlightened.

~Dagger~

[Brasil]

I think we need to talk about the concept of "just" laws here. In my mind (and I would hope in everyone's mind), a "just law" is one whose punishment fits the crime.

Community service for theft...just law.

Cutting off someone's hand for theft...not a just law.

Arresting someone for public indecency...just law.

Executing someone for engaging in "forbidden" sexual acts? Not a just law in the least.

Pointing to such things like moral relativism, different cultures, or saying "they broke the law knowingly, so they deserved the punishment," is missing the larger point there:

That such laws like the one that resulted in these two teens' deaths are unjust in every sense of the word, because these two boys were executed for engaging in gay sex. They didn't go on a killing spree. They didn't punch a leader in the gonads. They didn't even present a threat to much of anything, except perhaps the national "way of life." All they did was be themselves, basically. And they were first (severely) tortured and then executed for it.

Regardless of different cultures...that is unjust, and is one of the key issues here: what is a just law?

[Sandy]

I have to add to this, after doing some research, that there are [B]nine countries[/B] where homosexuality is punishable for death.

They are (according to the links provided beneath):
[list][*]Afghanistan
[*]Iran
[*]Mauritania
[*]Nigeria
[*]Pakistan
[*]Saudi-Arabia
[*]Sudan
[*]United Arab Emirates
[*]Yemen[/list]

Here's a link to a WikiPedia site concerning this issue:
[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexuality_laws_of_the_world[/url]

And here's another link concerning sodomy laws:
[url]http://www.sodomylaws.org/world/world.htm[/url]

Tough read, I must say.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]Lunox, what [i]you[/i] need to realise, is that there is a vast difference between advocating the rights of all people to be free, and 'forcing' our ideals and beliefs on another culture. It has nothing to do with that. The notion of 'freedom' is not something that merely applies to one country, or one culture. It is soemething which should be there for everyone.[/size]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Dagger]I'm still having trouble wrapping my mind around this. I wish I could formulate a better argument, but my reaction to what he said is a little more on the visceral side.

The first thing I don't understand is why what we think doesn't matter. To me it seems like you and others are saying that we as outsiders cannot judge this situation as being wrong. Or, to put it differently, I feel as though if everyone throughout history had the type of attitude being presented here, no progress would have ever been made. The main sense I got from Gavin's post was "Well, it's an unfair law, but for their own sake they just shouldn't have done it in the first place."

I submit that there are times when defying the law is the right thing to do. Gay sex may not seem to be as noble a cause as, say, the Underground Railroad, but loving who you want to love without getting killed for it is in my opinion just as valid a thing to fight for as women's suffrage and other inherently personal rights. That's why reducing it to a matter of breaking the law and being punished for it really rubs me the wrong way.

It's not an incorrect way of looking at the situation, but to me it seems rather callous. Traditions & customs are all very well, but they can't be used to excuse everything. I feel that it's perfectly within my rights to look at their law, whatever it stems from, and say flat-out that I think it's morally abhorrent.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Let me give you an example Dagger, in the Republic of Ireland abortion in all forms is illegal, there are no abortion clinics and abortion in this country is a crime with severe repercussions. Any women who wants a to have a legal abortion is then forced to travel to Northern Ireland or the UK to have one, which as you might guess adds extra financial cost to the whole affair. I disagree with abortion on the grounds that it is murder, plain and simple, the fact that the child cannot even defend itself makes this crime even more vile, and I believe that any woman who goes to the UK for an abortion and then comes back should face criminal charges. However I am not the law in my country, and they don't.

Now in America and other parts of the civilised world, as we like to call it, abortion is an accepted norm, and those who practice such a profession are not considered murderers by the law because plain and simple it's legal. Now as vehemently as I disagree with such a practice being legal, it is, it's your "[B]custom[/B]" and your right to have one if you want to even if I disagree with it on a fundamental basis. But does the fact that abortion is illegal in my country and legal in yours give me the right to condemn it as "[B]morally abhorrent[/B]" ? No it doesn't, because you have your rights and I must respect them just as I would your laws.

It is a sad fact that someone can be executed for being different, it's wrong, it is and I have no problem in saying that. But I don't have the right and neither to you or anyone to say that the laws of another nation are wrong or barbaric simply because we don't agree with them, how backward or offensive do you think a normal Iranian would find the murder of a child ? Probably horrendous, and how much more offensive and backward do you think that same Iranian would find it if he knew it was legal in some countries ? No county or person has the right to push his/her/their political, social or moral beliefs on other person or country, it's a fundamental right, regardless of how repulsive we find another cultures laws to be.

I'm not excusing what happened to those two boys, I think it was wrong to execute them because I don't believe in capital punishment, but it's the law and they broke it. We all consider the law to be the basis of a civilised society, those who keep to the law are considered up-standing citizens and held in high regard, and those who break it are considered criminals and punished. We have complex systems of legislation to amend laws or make things that were illegal legal and vice-versa and to keep the very fabric of society together. In Iran it is believed that these laws are what is right and I have no place saying otherwise and neither does anyone else. It is unfortunate that two people died for breaking the law to be with one another, it is but that doesn't change the fact it's illegal. [/SIZE]

[James]

[QUOTE=Dagger]
Moreover, as James mentioned (and now I'm speaking in a broader sense), it's not like Iran has been an uber-repressed society for thousands and thousands of years. I just don't see how "Oh, it's their culture" works as an adequate excuse for either them doing it or for us not condemning it... one could just as easily categorize the situation in North Korea (closed country, brainwashing, laws & policies which cause countless people to suffer in countless ways) as some kind of cultural thing that we simply have to tolerate because we're oh-so-civilized and enlightened.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[font=franklin gothic medium]Absolutely and I think the key thing related to all of this is "choice".

As I mentioned with Iran, pre-revolution, it was not mandatory/compulsory to wear the head-scarf. And many women (perhaps even the majority) did not. But some did, because they chose to as part of their religious observances.

After the revolution, new laws were drafted, which made the head-scarf compulsory for all women. Those who have ever seen any documentaries on the history of Iran may recall street protests in Tehran, where women deliberately protested and walked the streets without the scarf.

It's important to make a distinction, by saying that these women were not actually protesting against the wearing of the scarf. They were protesting about the lack of choice related to it - they were protesting that they were being [b]forced[/b] to wear it. That's the key point and it relates to so many things in countries like Iran and elsewhere.

When the Taliban was in power in Afghanistan, I don't think any reasonable person was saying "oh it's just part of their culture for women to be beaten around the legs in the street for laughing". It's not as though it had been that way forever and it's not as though women had somehow approved of that treatment. They were [i]forced[/i] into that way of life - and only somewhat recently, too.

So, it's important to be clear in saying that this isn't about trampling on people's heritage or cultural values. It's about ensuring that people have the right to [b]choose[/b] how to live their lives. In quite a few places within the Middle East, laws and society were actually more leniant before various takeovers and such. So it isn't accurate for anyone to suggest that this is just their "culture" and that nobody has any right to comment on it.[/font]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Dagger][url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moral_relativism][u]Moral relativism[/u][/url] can only be carried so far before it becomes completely ridiculous. I don't think I'm being close-minded by asserting that [i]I personally believe[/i] people should not have to die brutally for their sexual behavior--customs, traditions, time & place be damned.

To me your post doesn't necessarily seem arrogant, contrary to what you said (although the argument you're advancing does in a way smack of condescension, as it suggests Iranian society is so far removed from and so utterly unlike ours that there's simply no moral/cultural common ground and we must therefore blindly accept things like this as being "different" rather than wrong); it just seems apathetic.

Moreover, as James mentioned (and now I'm speaking in a broader sense), it's not like Iran has been an uber-repressed society for thousands and thousands of years. I just don't see how "Oh, it's their culture" works as an adequate excuse for either them doing it or for us not condemning it... one could just as easily categorize the situation in North Korea (closed country, brainwashing, laws & policies which cause countless people to suffer in countless ways) as some kind of cultural thing that we simply have to tolerate because we're oh-so-civilized and enlightened.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[color=darkslateblue] Christ, don't get me wrong.

I find that hanging two teens because they had gay sex is immoral, disgusting, and someone should lay a smack down on whoever wrote that law. Nonetheless, even if I think that's it's amazingly disgusting... I have to keep in mind that this is all a part of their culture. Whether Iran was recently oppressed or not. I don't see how any of this connects. I don't care about the fact that Iran didn't used to be like this, it has absolutely nothing to do with what I'm trying to say.

What I'm thinking in my mind is hard to put down into words. I'm not saying we should blame everything on their culture. No doubt there are many people in Iran who disagree with this sort of thing, but it is their established order. We're not 'tolerating' this because we're so 'civilized' and 'enlightened', I'm sad that you had to throw such an insult to me. We're tolerating it simply because it is a different culture, no less or better than ours.

Now, I'm going on a stretch here, because I don't know if this is true. What if the majority of the population in Iran truly believe that homosexuality is a sin and that it must be punishable, yeah? What can you do then? It would be a horrible move to come and tell them all of them are wrong and morally disgusting, and it's still horrible to us that gay people are dying simply because they are gay. Everything here is placed in such a gray area that we cannot be making black-and-white decisions.

What Baron said, of course, rings true to every part of me. There is a fuzzy distinction between freedom and custom in every culture. It makes it all the more harder, because most of us has grown up learning one or two cultures. Even the most open-midned person could have a hard time swallowing some things that go on in other cultures. There are two quotes (from the same guy, :D)that can sort of sum up everything I believe when it comes to this subject.

"At least two-thirds of our miseries spring from human stupidity, human malice and those great motivators and justifiers of malice and stupidity: idealism, dogmatism and proselytizing zeal on behalf of religous or political ideas."

"From their experience or from the recorded experience of others (history), men learn only what their passions and their metaphysical prejudices allow them to learn."

-Aldous Huxley

Yeah, I personally find everything that happened to the two teens to be everything I stand against. But my ideas on cultural differences also confilct with this. I'm not saying we should just let everything go because it is of another culture. What Baron said was true, freedom is freedom. But there is just always the fact that it IS part of another culture. I can't even explain it in words, it's just an intangible idea that runs in my head. There is no apathy here, as you put it. Oh, yes, I care very much. If this happened in the US, I'd be going crazy. But the simple fact that it did not makes all the difference to me, however cold-hearted that may seem.[/color]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I think I get what you're saying here Lunox, except I think that culture is maybe not so important as freedom. Never having lived in a 'restrictive' culture, or one as relatively pure as one like Iran's, I am not really placed to say that culture should be put underneath freedom. Obviously, there are situations where freedom and culture directly clash. However, raising the issue of freedom no matter what brings things like abortion up, where you could really argue that the only person the choice belongs to is the mother. Nevertheless, whilst culture is certainly a nice idea, it isn't always the best thing, especially when operated in a manner like this. Personal freedom is perhaps the ultimate ideal, to my mind.[/size]

[Docbatman]

that's kind of sad. My sister and my cousin are both gay(not together sicko one's a dude) anyways i love them dearly and i can't believe some dudes were hanged because of it. If i were part of their family I wouldn't be able to live with that. Poor guys.

[Baron Samedi]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']...that they are hated and forbidden by God, and with very good reason I might add.[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]And what very good reason would that be?[/SIZE]

[Petie]

[quote name='Baron Samedi][size=1']And what very good reaosn would that be?[/size][/quote][font=Verdana][color=blue]Yes, I was quite curious about that one myself.[/color][/font]

[Sandy]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']So no matter what you say, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to make them (including myself) accept that homosexual acts are okay.[/COLOR][/quote]

I beg to disagree. Asides religious base, you only think homosexual acts are wrong because you don't know any gay people personally. You surely have seen homosexuals in television and in the streets, perhaps in your school/workplace, but once you get to know a person who is a homosexual, you will realize that he or she is just the same as any heterosexual - a human being. (I'm basing this assumption to the fact that in my experience homophobia is a fear of the unknown just like any other phobia.)

I know you are going against the [I]actions[/I] here, but by that you are directly saying that the love I feel for my boyfriend - as a homosexual, in the romantic sense of love - is false; that it's not real, because love comes from the God (or something like that) and God wouldn't approve us. Or because we only are together because we want to practice our filthy homosexual perversions.

Well, here's a newsflash: we really [I]do[/I] love each other, like any heterosexual couple. With devotion, with passion, with caring, even with a bit of jealousy. If you have the nerve to come to me and say it's not right, then I think you're being ignorant and close-minded.

I honestly believe that in time, homosexuality will be a fully approved variety of human life, because if we gay people stand up for our rights, generation after generation will be born to a world where love and sex aren't just things between a man and a woman.

[Dagger]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']If you don't like the laws of a country, well, leave.[/color][/quote]
I'm surprised no one has challenged this statement yet. It's rarely as easy as that, especially for those who are younger (like the two in the article presented by the original poster), live in an oppressive country, or are stricken by poverty.

[quote][COLOR=#004a6f]So no matter what you say, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to make them (including myself) accept that homosexual acts are okay.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
To draw an analogy, I don't think that adultery (heterosexual or otherwise) is okay, but this doesn't mean I necessarily want it to be punishable by torture and/or death. Siren's post about what constitutes a just law is perhaps the clearest and most relevant argument which has appeared in this thread so far, I think. From a religious perspective, wouldn't it be better to treat "wayward" sexual tendencies with attempts at rehabilitation?

~Dagger~

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE]
I don't want to say anything offensive to gays, but well, a lot of people (including myself) believe that homosexual acts are are sinful, that they are hated and forbidden by God, and with very good reason I might add. So no matter what you say, no matter how hard you try, you're not going to make them (including myself) accept that homosexual acts are okay.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Oh Fundimentalist Islam... when will thee learn... Islam (Along with Catholisism and a few others Religions) never made the big great leap out of the Middle Ages. Why is it so damned hard for you to just say "Ya, well, I don't particularily like that, but they can do whatever they want?" Also, just because it's a Sin is the eyes of the Islamic world, does that mean it should be punishable by death? I mean eating Pork is a sin, do people get hanged for that? Grow up Islam. Grow up Iran. [/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Dagger]To draw an analogy, I don't think that adultery (heterosexual or otherwise) is okay, but this doesn't mean I necessarily want it to be punishable by torture and/or death. Siren's post about what constitutes a just law is perhaps the clearest and most relevant argument which has appeared in this thread so far, I think. From a religious perspective, wouldn't it be better to treat "wayward" sexual tendencies with attempts at rehabilitation?

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Unfortunately Dagger those who actively pursue homosexual relationships aren't just wayward sheep in need of being returned to the flock, homosexuality is considered quite a grievous sin against God because it goes against His plan. I know it sounds like a trite answer and you'll probably have heard it before, but from my point of view God created Male [Adam] and Female [Eve] in order to create the human race.

Now that's something from Genesis which has to be taken figuratively because such incest would result in genetic breakdown after a few generations, but if we look at it from a purely scientific point of view only males and females are capable of natural reproduction together. And as reproduction is the core of any bonding pair (such as a couple) then it could be said that homosexuality is an abnormality because it cannot render offspring, trite yes but the crux of the matter. Religious people see homosexuality as a [B]perversion[/B] of His work, which is why someone who actively pursues homosexuality can't be considered just wayward, though rehabilitation would be the welcomed outcome.

I don't particularly enjoy debating the rights and wrongs of homosexuality, no scratch that, I don't at all enjoy it because all it does is raise hassle between the religious members and those who disagree with our position. I believe this would be a very appropriate time to agree to disagree.[/size]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Oh Fundimentalist Islam... when will thee learn... Islam (Along with Catholisism and a few others Religions) never made the big great leap out of the Middle Ages. Why is it so damned hard for you to just say "Ya, well, I don't particularily like that, but they can do whatever they want?" Also, just because it's a Sin is the eyes of the Islamic world, does that mean it should be punishable by death? I mean eating Pork is a sin, do people get hanged for that? Grow up Islam. Grow up Iran. [/COLOR][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Ilium there's a huge difference between a "[I]fundamentalist[/I]" and someone who is just expressing their opinion based on their religious beliefs. And for you to just label Chabichou as a fundamentalist because you don't agree with her opinion is ignorance of the highest calibre. I also take offence to you claiming that Catholicism has "[i]never made the big great leap out of the Middle Ages[/i]", again just because the dogma of the Catholic Church doesn't mirror your beliefs, such as a young person suffering from depression should turn to drugs to help get them through it.

It's not hard to say "[i]Ya, well, I don't particularily like that, but they can do whatever they want?[/i]", I could say it but then I'd be lying because I don't believe it. And if I disagree with it then I'm perfectly within my rights to say I disagree with it, I disagree with homosexuality because it goes against my religious beliefs, and those who practice it are committing terrible sins. Now it's not the I like complaining about it or I get some kind of kick out of it, but that fact is I'm worried about the souls of those who practice it, because whether or not you believe in or care about God, He believes in and cares for you. So taking the position of "[i]Ya, well, I don't particularily like that, but they can do whatever they want?[/i]" isn't acceptable.

At the beginning of this thread I gave my reasons for disagreeing with their execution, as well as execution in all forms. I don't believe that someone should die for committing a sin, regardless of how serious it is, because sinning is breaking God's law and only God has the right to judge for that. Just as for breaking the laws of a nation, we punish them according to our judicial system. But that doesn't give you the right to tell the people of Iran and other Muslims to "[I]Grow Up[/I]" because you disagree with their laws, traditions and customs. [/SIZE]