Mother of slain son holds vigil in Crawford.

[Circ]

[quote name='Retribution][SIZE=1]How about [i]you[/i'] act civilized and regard politicians as remorseful and compassionate. Just because some aren't doesn't mean Bush isn't a human being and feels those feelings.[/SIZE][/quote]

I do not consider tha George W. Bush is not a human being because he lacks any form of remorse or compassion. I consider that Dubya do not belongs to [I]Homo sapiens sapiens[/I] because he has displayed the common sense and IQ of a combined ton of krill.

(I know that wasn't adressed at me, but it just begged for that answer.)

[DeathBug]

[quote name='Circéus]I consider that Dubya do not belongs to [I]Homo sapiens sapiens[/I'] because he has displayed the common sense and IQ of a combined ton of krill.[/quote]

Because everyone loves harsh accusations made with no support!

[Circ]

[quote name='DeathBug']Because everyone loves harsh accusations made with no support![/quote]
*glances at Illium and current Canadian politics*

I like to call it the "national sport"

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Circéus]I do not consider tha George W. Bush is not a human being because he lacks any form of remorse or compassion. I consider that Dubya do not belongs to [I]Homo sapiens sapiens[/I] because he has displayed the common sense and IQ of a combined ton of krill.

(I know that wasn't adressed at me, but it just begged for that answer.)[/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]*sigh* Why am I covering up for a President that I don't support? Because I have a shred of decency. He's a f_cking human being. He has emotions like you and I. Just because he's doing stuff you [we] don't like, doesn't give you a excuse to regard him as ignorant and subhuman.

I guess I'm kind of the 'Amen Chorus' of DeathBug, but I needed to say that.[/SIZE]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=DeathBug]Wow. Just...that was insulting to every person serving in the armed forces. You sck beyond all measure.


...So, is there going to be a story about the hundreds of parents who aren't acting a fool over the death of their sons/daughters?

Honestly, this woman is using her son's death as a platform to spout her political opinions, then shielding herself from critisism with her son's body. She already had her audience with the President, but now that she's become more of an activist than she already was. The rest of her family has disavowed her actions, and her husband has divorced her because of this.

If my father had been killed in Africa when he was there under the Clinton administration, I wouldn't have blamed the president. If he had been killed in the Middle EAst under the Bush administration, I wouldn't blame the president. This woman is pimping out her personal tragedy, and I'm sick of it.

She's started giving advice on the Gaza strip and the tax code, for God's sake; why is anyone listening to her?[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Hi Buggy, I'm going to address your replies in teh order they were given, look for numbers

1.) No clue how- except that he basically said that some soldiers would rather go to Canada. Canada sucks- you have to use teh friggin' metric system!

2.) Only directed on the local news for one night.

3.) Or maybe she's just dealing with her grief in an odd way. When did she have her audience with Bush? So far all I heard was that his motorcade drove by and he didn't say anything. And I think it's unfair to say that her husband divorced her because of her actions. There are a million other easons for divorce- IE the guy is cheating and wants to use something like her actions as a shield to divorce her.

4.) No comment

5.) I didn't hear that yet. She should just stick to picketing- and buy some moisturizer with sunscreen.[/color]

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]I know this has already been answered, but I'm a fan of overkill.
[/COLOR]
[QUOTE=DeathBug]Wow. Just...that was insulting to every person serving in the armed forces. You sck beyond all measure.


...So, is there going to be a story about the hundreds of parents who aren't acting a fool over the death of their sons/daughters?

Honestly, this woman is using her son's death as a platform to spout her political opinions, then shielding herself from critisism with her son's body. She already had her audience with the President, but now that she's become more of an activist than she already was. The rest of her family has disavowed her actions, and her husband has divorced her because of this.

If my father had been killed in Africa when he was there under the Clinton administration, I wouldn't have blamed the president. If he had been killed in the Middle EAst under the Bush administration, I wouldn't blame the president. This woman is pimping out her personal tragedy, and I'm sick of it.

She's started giving advice on the Gaza strip and the tax code, for God's sake; why is anyone listening to her?[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
1) Why? Because I said that half the people who join the millitary do so because they're from unfortunate homesteads and they don't have the money to get a proper education anyway else, they have no choice but to join the Armed Forces. If people joined because they were itchin' to take out some of their anger, than they want to go to war and then it's their own damn fault if they get killed. But if you get sucked in to a War (Especially one as unfounded as The Iraqi Conflict) because it was your only choice for an education, that's just sad. Oh, and it's not my fault that people would rather live in Canada than go fight some muscle-flexin' war.

2) I have to agree with you here; the media is terrible. They're going to completely ignore the people who don't do this type of thing and go after the one who is, some of them showing her some support, others just mercilissly terring her apart with, frankly, idiotic and groundless arguments (See: Faux News) that make fun of her because she's a left-wing Liberal.

3) I don't think she's in it for her political views; she's already an activist with Moore and Moveon.org, she didn't need any other way to spout her Political agenda; maybe she wanted attention, maybe she was truely distraught that Bush had started a war that got her Son killed, I don't know, and unless you can read minds (Unlikely) you don't either.

4) This all depends on your point of view. If I knew somone who had joined the millitary because if she/he didn't she couldn't afford to to pay his/her bills or go to a college or whatever, and than a war as ill-thoughtout and terribly planned as the Iraqi conflict got said person killed, I would be terribly mad at the people (In this case, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Fahd, Rice, Powel, and the rest of the Neo-Con bum-buddies) who got him/her into the conflict. That's just my point of view, though.

5) Who's listening too her? If it wasn't for right-wing mega-corporations like Faux News plugging her every day just so they could insult her I don't think anyone would have heard about it after Day 2; Right-Wing media... it's own worst enemy.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]
*sigh* Why am I covering up for a President that I don't support? Because I have a shred of decency. He's a f_cking human being. He has emotions like you and I. Just because he's doing stuff you [we] don't like, doesn't give you a excuse to regard him as ignorant and subhuman.
[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I think that he's sub-human, at least by this day-and-ages standards. He's expressed the intellegence and foresight of Marie Antionete (Not that I'm saying he's a girl *snickers*) combined with the millitarism of Napolean or Mahmut II. That may not be sub-human per se, but for a man running a country it's most definatly sub-standard in this era. I regard him as sub-human because he cheated his way to the top; no man or woman with an IQ of 91 could ever make their own path to the Presidential office, and he knew that the only way he could ever stay in office was by starting a war; everyone knows how easy it is to twist wars into some super-propogandgic conflict. By doing this and throwing away countless lives he's defied the one true definition of, if Dune taught us anything, humanity. A true human is selfless, a true human would wait in a trap until the trapper returned and kill the trapper so that no one else gets trapped instead of freeing itself. That's what I regard as human. Am I human? No. I don't claim to be. But anyone as self-centered and wreckless and Bush is not, by my definition, and since this is only my opinion it's what I'm using, a human.[/COLOR]

[DeathBug]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]I know this has already been answered, but I'm a fan of overkill.
[/COLOR]

[COLOR=DarkRed]
1) Why? Because I said that half the people who join the millitary do so because they're from unfortunate homesteads and they don't have the money to get a proper education anyway else, they have no choice but to join the Armed Forces. If people joined because they were itchin' to take out some of their anger, than they want to go to war and then it's their own damn fault if they get killed. But if you get sucked in to a War (Especially one as unfounded as The Iraqi Conflict) because it was your only choice for an education, that's just sad. Oh, and it's not my fault that people would rather live in Canada than go fight some muscle-flexin' war. [/QUOTE]



If you honestly believe that, you're an idiot. The basic assumption you've got here is either people in the military are

A) Losers who couldn't get an education or future for themselves on their own

or

B) Violent psychopaths.

God forbid someone join because they believe in what they're doing. That never happens, does it? Maybe you should actually get some proof before you throw wild statistics about.

[QUOTE]2) I have to agree with you here; the media is terrible. They're going to completely ignore the people who don't do this type of thing and go after the one who is, some of them showing her some support, others just mercilissly terring her apart with, frankly, idiotic and groundless arguments (See: Faux News) that make fun of her because she's a left-wing Liberal.[/QUOTE]

Left-wing or right-wing, people who shiled themselves with the bodies of their dead relatives deserve critisism.

[QUOTE]3) I don't think she's in it for her political views; she's already an activist with Moore and Moveon.org, she didn't need any other way to spout her Political agenda; maybe she wanted attention, maybe she was truely distraught that Bush had started a war that got her Son killed, I don't know, and unless you can read minds (Unlikely) you don't either.[/QUOTE]

Don't be stupid; she already was an activist, and she's clearly using her son as a tool to further her activism. Now she's approaching from a standpoint of rightuos indignation, as though her son was an empty-minded idiot who didn't have any say in the matter.

[QUOTE]4) This all depends on your point of view. If I knew somone who had joined the millitary because if she/he didn't she couldn't afford to to pay his/her bills or go to a college or whatever, and than a war as ill-thoughtout and terribly planned as the Iraqi conflict got said person killed, I would be terribly mad at the people (In this case, Bush, Cheney, Rove, Fahd, Rice, Powel, and the rest of the Neo-Con bum-buddies) who got him/her into the conflict. That's just my point of view, though.[/QUOTE]

And the proof that this was the case is...? You can't just say it and automatically make it true.

[QUOTE]5) Who's listening too her? If it wasn't for right-wing mega-corporations like Faux News plugging her every day just so they could insult her I don't think anyone would have heard about it after Day 2; Right-Wing media... it's own worst enemy.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

So...your theory is that a media outlet that's ideolgically opposed to her is going to give her free air time to further her views if they thought they didn't have to? Wow, that's almost as smart as your "All soldiers are poor psychos" argument.

And even that brilliant logic is working under the assumption that "right wing" media is the only one giving her air-time, when it's clearly not. If only Fox News covered this story, you think anyone would care?


[QUOTE]
Am I human? No. I don't claim to be. But anyone as self-centered and wreckless and Bush is not, by my definition, and since this is only my opinion it's what I'm using, a human.[/QUOTE]
Well, we're all glad to know that someone of your obvious intellect is finding time to define hummanity for us. If you're going to continue to spout such nonsense, you're right to not tie intelligence into hummanity.

[TheShinje]

[color=Gray][size=1]She won't get that apology fromt he president, but she is getting something for all her effort. It seems that the tide of opinion against the war is rapidly increasing, or so our MSM is reporting.

She's getting alot of mothers of slain armed forces personnel on her side, what began as a one-person protest seems to be slipping further and further out of control every day. She has become a mini-celebrity in many cases, whichever way you look at it, pro-war she's a kook, anti-war she's a saint.

She might have had the right inspiration for what she is doing, but seriously, this is not the way to get results, at least those results you actually want.


[/size][/color]

[Red]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet'] . G. W. Bush says that while he sympathizes ( *cough* bull crap *cough*) with her, pulling out of Iraq would bad. How?[/quote]

You don't really know if Bush doesn't sympathise with her. I doubt that even with all the things you could verbally hang him for doing, he doesn't feel some sort of sadness when people he helped send to war die.

Pulling out of Iraq would be bad for reasons that should be affixed to gigantic flashing signs, the main one being that once something has been started, it better damn well be finished, and properly.

Most people (including me) had their large reservations about any sort of action in Iraq, but now that it's happening pulling out would be pure insanity. Considering the country is having a good wobble while trying to stand on it's own two feet, I think there's a long way to go before the support should be retracted.

Can you imagine the British walking up to the local Iraqi police commander and saying: "Sorry mate, going back home for a cuppa and to see the wife - don't accept any hugs and run when you see a jeep! Cheerio"? The forces required to uphold the law and the administration behind it is [i]far[/i] from being firmly in place yet, let alone the current state of attacks on citizens, soldiers, politicians & police.

[quote]I think it's rather admirable that this woman is willing to risk imprisionment just to get her point across. Now what do you think?[/color][/QUOTE]

I think the woman has found the wrong way to grieve her son's death. She can look for any explanation from Bush that she wants, the pure & simple fact is that he [i]chose[/i] to sign up for the military. Part of that decision is acknowledging that you could be sent to war, any time, any place.

If she wants to lobby, she should be questioning why the promised enforcement of law across Iraq has been not been successful. But then, there are myriad reasons as to why that isn't the case, which I doubt the forces there are completely ignoring.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Evil Jedi][color=Gray][size=1]She won't get that apology fromt he president, but she is getting something for all her effort. It seems that the tide of opinion against the war is rapidly increasing, or so our MSM is reporting.

She's getting alot of mothers of slain armed forces personnel on her side, what began as a one-person protest seems to be slipping further and further out of control every day. She has become a mini-celebrity in many cases, whichever way you look at it, pro-war she's a kook, anti-war she's a saint.

She might have had the right inspiration for what she is doing, but seriously, this is not the way to get results, at least those results you actually want.


[/size][/color][/QUOTE] [color=DarkRed]
Even before she started this, the war approval rating was only 39% or even lower. If only those 11% had pulled their heads out of their ***** before the last election...

Um, anyway, does anyone know if she could even be legally imprisoned for this? So far as I know she hasn't broken any laws... It's either an empty threat or they plan to throw yet another illegal prisoner into some ****hole prison. *sigh*


[b][color=DarkGreen][size=1]As Red's pointed out in his post, Ilium, your post needed editing for language. Be aware that some compound words can slip through the auto-censorship scripts; since the O Lounge doesn't use thread ratings like the Arena, it's usually best not to curse at all. Safer that way.
[/size][/color][/b][/color] [right][color=DarkGreen][size=1]-Raiyuu[/size][/color]
[/right]

[Red]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
Even before she started this, the war approval rating was only 39% or even lower. If only those 11% had pulled their heads out of their ***** before the last election...

Um, anyway, does anyone know if she could even be legally imprisoned for this? So far as I know she hasn't broken any laws... It's either an empty threat or they plan to throw yet another illegal prisoner into some shithole prison. *sigh*[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Let's hit edit and get the cursing out of the words, it doesn't get a point across any better, hence why there are 400,000 words to use.

Not to sound horrible, but you should consider thinking before you write. Biased & uninformed arguments help nobody - you can't tell what people are thinking, you can't tell how they were brought up, you can't tell what their views are in the world.

For whatever reason (which would be debatable forever, hence the beauty of it), we were put here with freedom of choice. If someone decides that they support or oppose [i]x[/i], that's their decision & opinion. You can try to change that forever, but unless they're willing to adopt a new mindset it's not going to get anywhere, and you have to accept it. Your opinion is more than valid, but hurling insults doesn't make it so.

And if you're going to plug facts, put some [i]research[/i] behind them! 39 + 11 per cent just doesn't add up (39 + 61 does, though ;]).

[Sara]

[color=#6699cc]I think the 11% thing was going along the lines of "I wish that this 11% of the populace who supported (and voted) for Bush a year ago had changed their minds [i]before[/i] he was elected."[/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Red]You don't really know if Bush doesn't sympathise with her. I doubt that even with all the things you could verbally hang him for doing, he doesn't feel some sort of sadness when people he helped send to war die.

I think the woman has found the wrong way to grieve her son's death. She can look for any explanation from Bush that she wants, the pure & simple fact is that he [i]chose[/i] to sign up for the military. Part of that decision is acknowledging that you could be sent to war, any time, any place.[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]While I will give you the top comment I dissagree with teh bottom. How can youdecide what is a right way and a wronmg way to grieve for everyone?

People deal with their emotions in different ways maybe she feels that she's doing the right thing. So Bush's vacation gets ruined ah well.

And in the end, America has an all volunteer military, these men and women know that joining the military there is a chance that they will be going to war. Parents can griecve what ever way they want, but they should also realize that their kid knew what they were in for signing up.[/color]

[Red]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet']While I will give you the top comment I dissagree with teh bottom. How can youdecide what is a right way and a wronmg way to grieve for everyone? [/quote]

You asked what everyone thought - I told you what I do. ;]

I didn't decide what isn't and what is the right way to grieve for someone, that's up to the individual. What I'm saying is that it sounds as if she has an agenda, one that gets the current situation nowhere.


[quote]People deal with their emotions in different ways maybe she feels that she's doing the right thing. So Bush's vacation gets ruined ah well. [/quote]

I would think it's more attempting a push in the wrong direction for Iraq due to what happened to her son, thinking that Bush will actually listen. Somehow I doubt one woman could ruin a President's vacation.

[quote]And in the end, America has an all volunteer military, these men and women know that joining the military there is a chance that they will be going to war. Parents can griecve what ever way they want, but they should also realize that their kid knew what they were in for signing up.[/color][/QUOTE]

Exactly!

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Red]You asked what everyone thought - I told you what I do. ;]

I didn't decide what isn't and what is the right way to grieve for someone, that's up to the individual. What I'm saying is that it sounds as if she has an agenda, one that gets the current situation nowhere.


![/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]I said I wanted to hear what you thought, I [i]didn't[/i] say I would agree with it or make a comment.

Perhaps she does have an agenda to get more people on her side I have noticed that Bush has been protested at the last two stops he's made- Hell even the Mayor of Salt Lake City turned out to protest him yesturday. Maybe all she wants is attention, well she's got pleanty now.[/color]

[Boo]

[size=1][color=gray]*ignores other posts*

Wow, he joins the army to shoot people, he gets shot. How ironic. If you don't want to be Killed In Action, don't join the army.

I can understand the woman protesting, but it's not Bush's fault that her son wanted to play Uncle Sam's war hero.[/size][/color]

[Brasil]

DeathBug, you've gotta be kidding me, coming in here and spouting this garbage.

[quote name='DeathBug']If you honestly believe that, you're an idiot.[/quote] Yes, and there are those who join the military out of a sense of duty. But there are large numbers of soldiers, medics, mechanics, etc., who are merely taking advantage of an opportunity offered to them by the US Military so they can afford to attend higher education when their military service is up. So calling Ilium an "idiot" for believing that is out of line, DB. And even the "sense of duty" can be spun into "gung-ho" by the dutiful themselves, so let's keep that in mind.

[quote]The basic assumption you've got here is either people in the military are

A) Losers who couldn't get an education or future for themselves on their own

or

B) Violent psychopaths.

God forbid someone join because they believe in what they're doing. That never happens, does it? Maybe you should actually get some proof before you throw wild statistics about.[/quote] And what basic assumption are you operating under, DeathBug? Something tells me the rest of your post here will shed some light on that.

[quote]Left-wing or right-wing, people who shiled themselves with the bodies of their dead relatives deserve critisism.[/quote] Shielding themselves with the bodies of their dead relatives? I wonder why "right-wing" is even included here, DB. For the purposes of this topic...if someone is speaking out against the President, or the war, they're not "right-wing." So even including "or right-wing" there sounds suspiciously like an entirely lame cop-out.

This isn't a full-blown point, so don't quote it and attempt to refute it. It's merely an incidental. In something like Terry Shiavo, however, if Conservatives use Terry as a poster child (like they did) to push a political agenda, they're not using dead relatives as anything. Even Terry's parents didn't have a political agenda in mind when they were fighting to keep her on the feeding tube.

They petitioned Jeb Bush, President Bush, etc., but was that political activism in the sense we're discussing here? I don't think so, really. They were desperate. And that leads me into my next point.

[quote]Don't be stupid; she already was an activist, and she's clearly using her son as a tool to further her activism. Now she's approaching from a standpoint of rightuos indignation, as though her son was an empty-minded idiot who didn't have any say in the matter.[/quote] Strong words without a shred of proof, DB. And you know, it actually sickens me to read this rubbish? You're attacking this woman--for all intents and purposes you're accusing her of being a two-faced, manipulative, exploitive snake--simply because in the grief of losing a son...in [b][i]desperation[/i][/b]...she's making a political statement.

Now, generally, I don't agree with most political activism--most [i]extreme[/i] political activism--but in this case? You have a woman who lost her son in war, and is upset enough to want to do something about why she lost her son. Whether or not you agree with her stance on things--or her political viewpoint--is not the issue here.

"Activist" or not, to seemingly lump her in with the likes of Michael Moore is absurdly asinine, because Michael Moore [i]has no preceden[/i]t for the crap he pulls on a regular basis. He didn't get exploited by any big government. He's not losing money at the pump. He's not been shot by Charlton Heston. Bush didn't beat him up and steal his lunch money. His children (if he has any) haven't joined the Armed Services and become casualties of war.

At least this woman [i]has a reason[/i] for doing what she's doing. And she's only tripled her efforts after she lost her son. How dare you criticize her for that. For that matter, so what if she's trying to put pressure on Bush? So what if she's trying to get all the media attention she can? What is so wrong with that?

You're knowledgeable about history, DB. You know about the 1960s. Vietnam, Flower Power, Born on the Fourth of July.

Political activism has always largely been driven by personal/life experiences. You want to minimize this woman's actions...you're going to have to minimize history, man, right and left.

And you know...I sincerely doubt you'd feel the same way about this type of issue if it were a Republican "exploiting" Terry Shiavo's media circus to propel their own political agenda. I'd like to think you'd hold the same types of criticisms...but there's a part of me that knows you'd be standing right there next to that Republican.

So...why not just tell us exactly why you dislike this woman so much? I admit, I find this entire circus silly, as I do all media circuses, but at least I'm not showing my claws like you are here.

[quote]And the proof that this was the case is...? You can't just say it and automatically make it true.[/quote] What was true? I see a few things in Ilium's paragraph, yet no specificity coming from you in your two sentence reply. If we're talking motivations of the son, he re-enlisted, volunteered. But does that invalidate his mother's crusade? Of course not.

If we're talking about the Iraq war itself? I support stabilizing nigh-Fascist regimes, and I do believe if we clear out Extremism in the Middle East, things will start looking up. But what I'm not about to do is blindly support the Iraq war, because we all know that the reasons for going to war in the first place were complete and utter misinformation.

[quote]So...your theory is that a media outlet that's ideolgically opposed to her is going to give her free air time to further her views if they thought they didn't have to? Wow, that's almost as smart as your "All soldiers are poor psychos" argument.

And even that brilliant logic is working under the assumption that "right wing" media is the only one giving her air-time, when it's clearly not. If only Fox News covered this story, you think anyone would care?[/quote] Fox News covers the story because it gives their entertainer-cum-newscasters ratings (and yet another chance for that political soapbox, to boot). And let's face it. Both sides are using this woman as a political springboard.

Fox News covering the story doesn't mean they want to spread [i]her[/i] message. It means they want to spread [i]their[/i] message. Check out No-Spin Zone and you'll see what I'm talking about.

It's funny how you criticize Ilium's post for being mindless and so forth, because I'm having difficulty in discerning any real, relevant material in your reply that isn't simply a Republican teenager being pissed off.

[quote]Well, we're all glad to know that someone of your obvious intellect is finding time to define hummanity for us. If you're going to continue to spout such nonsense, you're right to not tie intelligence into hummanity.[/QUOTE] Is that rubbish really necessary at all? Seriously, DB. The sarcasm, the trite, childish insults in your posts...prove to me that you're above all of that.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]*Points up* Did I mention lately that I worship Siren?

Some people do join the military because they have a sense of duty and honor- you know why [i]talk[/i] about fixing the problem when you can [i]fix[/i] the problem? Support your country blah blah blah. Sorry I just can't wrap my mind around that idea, but I know people who have done that.

However the grand majority of military personnel are in the military for less than glamorous reasons. My ex-husband is a high school drop out with one parent descased (priorly non existant) and the other is on SSI- he did it because it was a steady paycheck- and when he watched the recount in 2000 in Ft. Knox KY (TN) he wondered what he got himself into. One of his co-workers saw it as teh only way out of her dead end life, and a girl that graduated with me just didn't want to go to college and joined the Navy. There are different reasons for joiningthe military and you can't fault their reasons, who knows maybe some of the guys who are infantry really [i]are[/i] closet psychopaths.

Maybe this woman's son felt like he was doing his patriotic duty or maybe he just didn't want to go to college. The point is he died and she's upset and now wants to protest the war. She also has a lot of people and the media paying attention to her get over it. And if anyone brings up this as the reason for a divorce again I'll unleash my Chibi Usa clones[/color]

[Red]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman]I said I wanted to hear what you thought, I [i]didn't[/i'] say I would agree with it or make a comment.[/quote]

Er, at which point did I say you had to agree with me or not make a comment? lol.

[quote]Perhaps she does have an agenda to get more people on her side I have noticed that Bush has been protested at the last two stops he's made- Hell even the Mayor of Salt Lake City turned out to protest him yesturday. Maybe all she wants is attention, well she's got pleanty now.[/QUOTE]

Well, she has a good base (although they are based on misfortune and loss of life) to nab media attention. If more did this it would probably cause quite the ruckus.

As for people joining the military for specific reasons (no moolah, stuck with no qualifications, etc.), that's all well and good, a few friends of mine have joined the military on similar grounds. I don't think it's acceptable as a reason for attacking the government, though, as some parents have done over here in interviews and so on.

[DeathBug]

[quote name='Siren']DeathBug, you've gotta be kidding me, coming in here and spouting this garbage.[/quote]

I've got the innate feeling I'm about to be talked down to by Siren again.

[QUOTE] Yes, and there are those who join the military out of a sense of duty. But there are large numbers of soldiers, medics, mechanics, etc., who are merely taking advantage of an opportunity offered to them by the US Military so they can afford to attend higher education when their military service is up. So calling Ilium an "idiot" for believing that is out of line, DB. And even the "sense of duty" can be spun into "gung-ho" by the dutiful themselves, so let's keep that in mind.[/QUOTE]

Here's an idea: how about you spend your entire life around the military, and meeting the people who make it work, and then you tell me about their reasons, and what they can and can't do.

Any perosn with the courage and discipline to join the US militrary doesn't need the military to make something of their life, because they've already got the ability to be something without it. It's a matter of character, and the way your assertions portray them is insulting.

[QUOTe]Shielding themselves with the bodies of their dead relatives? I wonder why "right-wing" is even included here, DB. For the purposes of this topic...if someone is speaking out against the President, or the war, they're not "right-wing." So even including "or right-wing" there sounds suspiciously like an entirely lame cop-out.[/QUOTE]

And I wonder why this paragraph is even included here, as it adds nothing to our conversation.

[QUOTE]This isn't a full-blown point, so don't quote it and attempt to refute it. It's merely an incidental. In something like Terry Shiavo, however, if Conservatives use Terry as a poster child (like they did) to push a political agenda, they're not using dead relatives as anything. Even Terry's parents didn't have a political agenda in mind when they were fighting to keep her on the feeding tube.

They petitioned Jeb Bush, President Bush, etc., but was that political activism in the sense we're discussing here? I don't think so, really. They were desperate. And that leads me into my next point.[/QUOTE]

If it's not a point, don't write three paragraphs about it and then tell not to "attempt to refute it", especially when you're trying to make my point look invalid by disputing a single clause of it.

[QUOTE] Strong words without a shred of proof, DB. And you know, it actually sickens me to read this rubbish? You're attacking this woman--for all intents and purposes you're accusing her of being a two-faced, manipulative, exploitive snake--simply because in the grief of losing a son...in [b][i]desperation[/i][/b]...she's making a political statement.[/QUOTE]

I am not attacking this woman; I pointed out the truth of what she's doing. I am attacking her actions. She is using her son's death to give her autohority she otherwise wouldn't have. And this is not an act of desperation anymore, if it ever was. You don't get a press secretary, a web ring, a fund-rasining organization, and collabortaiton with Micheal Moore and MoveOn.Org as an act of desperation; you do it as an act of activism.


[QUOTE] Now, generally, I don't agree with most political activism--most [i]extreme[/i] political activism--but in this case? You have a woman who lost her son in war, and is upset enough to want to do something about why she lost her son. Whether or not you agree with her stance on things--or her political viewpoint--is not the issue here.[/QUOTE]

Why isn't it? [url=http://www.truthout.org/cindy.shtml]She's certainly making it an issue.[/url]

[QUOTE] "Activist" or not, to seemingly lump her in with the likes of Michael Moore is absurdly asinine, because Michael Moore [i]has no preceden[/i]t for the crap he pulls on a regular basis. He didn't get exploited by any big government. He's not losing money at the pump. He's not been shot by Charlton Heston. Bush didn't beat him up and steal his lunch money. His children (if he has any) haven't joined the Armed Services and become casualties of war.[/QUOTE]

I didn't lump her in with Moore; she did, by co-ordinating with him. Or maybe her press secretary did it; I can't be sure.

[QUOTE]At least this woman [i]has a reason[/i] for doing what she's doing. And she's only tripled her efforts after she lost her son. [b]How dare you criticize her for that.[/b][/QUOTE]

Wow, it's almost like you're saying, because she lost her son, she's beyond all critisism.

Gee, isn't that exactly what I just said she wanted to happen?

[QUOTE]For that matter, so what if she's trying to put pressure on Bush? So what if she's trying to get all the media attention she can? What is so wrong with that?[/QUOTE]

Maybe the fact that she's only getting it because her son died? It's almost ike she's milking his death for political attention...

[QUOTE]You're knowledgeable about history, DB. You know about the 1960s. Vietnam, Flower Power, Born on the Fourth of July.

Political activism has always largely been driven by personal/life experiences. You want to minimize this woman's actions...you're going to have to minimize history, man, right and left.[/QUOTE]

I'm not minimizing her actions; I'm responding to them. History will judge if she made any impact.

[QUOTE] And you know...I sincerely doubt you'd feel the same way about this type of issue if it were a Republican "exploiting" Terry Shiavo's media circus to propel their own political agenda. I'd like to think you'd hold the same types of criticisms...but there's a part of me that knows you'd be standing right there next to that Republican.[/QUOTE]

Yes, because clearly, you know everything about me, and my motivations, and therefore have no problems personally attacking me, because you're so damned smart.

[QUOTE]So...why not just tell us exactly why you dislike this woman so much? I admit, I find this entire circus silly, as I do all media circuses, but at least I'm not showing my claws like you are here.[/QUOTE]

I don't dislike this woman any more than I dislike all misguided activists. What I dislike is her calluos use of her son's sacrifice.


[QUOTE] If we're talking about the Iraq war itself? I support stabilizing nigh-Fascist regimes, and I do believe if we clear out Extremism in the Middle East, things will start looking up. But what I'm not about to do is blindly support the Iraq war, because we all know that the reasons for going to war in the first place were complete and utter misinformation.[/QUOTE]

Yes, complete and utter misinformation [i]that the entire world believed.[/i] As you'll recall, the debate prior to the war was not whether or not Iraq had WMD's, but whether or not they should be given more time to comply with UN regulations.

[QUOTE] Fox News covers the story because it gives their entertainer-cum-newscasters ratings (and yet another chance for that political soapbox, to boot). And let's face it. Both sides are using this woman as a political springboard.[/QUOTE]

Which is easy to do when she's a political activist. She was prior to her son's death, as well.

[QUOTE]Fox News covering the story doesn't mean they want to spread [i]her[/i] message. It means they want to spread [i]their[/i] message. Check out No-Spin Zone and you'll see what I'm talking about.[/QUOTE]

Conservative broadcasters refer to it because they know the liberal ones are, and they'll look foolish if they ignore it. If they didn't feel they needed to report it in some fashion, they wouldn't.

[QUOTE]It's funny how you criticize Ilium's post for being mindless and so forth, because I'm having difficulty in discerning any real, relevant material in your reply that isn't simply a Republican teenager being pissed off.[/QUOTE]

Wow, and pigeonholing me into a stereotype makes you look so smart. How relevent are personal attacks?

But, I'll give it to you: I am pissed off. I'm pissed off from the total bull being spouted about the armed forces. To hear the new party line, you'd think the lot of the US military are a bunch of stupid kids who can't make cognitive decisions.

And I'm completely sick of "We support the troops, but not the war". Oh, we think want you're doing is evil and it should fail, because that would show the Bush Nazi's...but we think you guys are okay. BS.

[QUOTE] Is that rubbish really necessary at all? Seriously, DB. The sarcasm, the trite, childish insults in your posts...prove to me that you're above all of that.[/QUOTE]

Why should I care what you think, honestly? Every single time I disagree with you, you post from some supposed intellectual superiority and talk down to me and anyone else who disagrees with you. I'm not so shallow that I need the acceptance of others to know when I'm right.

[Domon]

[SIZE=1]In regards to Sheean, I think she's a political tool in many aspects. The extremists against the war are rallying behind her, while the extremists for the war are ignoring her. But I honestly think her son must be rolling in his grave for the actions his mother has taken in regards to his death. I mean the kid knew that joining the military right now could mean you go to Iraq and that you run the risk of dying. So I think that Sheean is in fact [B]disrespecting[/B] her own son's memory by her actions. I mean, who does that?

And in regards to some of the people who have joined the military *cough*Ilium*cough* I think that is a rude and uncalled for assumption. I know plenty of other people who are currently in the military or military reserves. A few people are on the forums and a few others I know from my area. But I really don't feel like getting into that discussion.[/SIZE]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='DeathBug'] And I'm completely sick of "We support the troops, but not the war". Oh, we think want you're doing is evil and it should fail, because that would show the Bush Nazi's...but we think you guys are okay. BS. [/quote]

[color=darkviolet]So, you can [i]only[/i] support the troops [i]and[/i] the war, but not just the troops? That doesn't add up to me, I think it has to do with the whole, I supported my ex through this whole army thing, but I really don't agree with this war.

I think the war is wrong.I think the reasons for going to war are wrong and I think Bush is as dumb as a bag of hammers, but that doesn't make me the bad guy. I supprot the troops, I'll support them because they're doing their job, not because I agree with what their boss told them to do.

Okay so give me a cookie since I'm going to put something you said in my signature for a while[/color]

[Lafleur]

[quote name='Domon][SIZE=1']And in regards to some of the people who have joined the military *cough*Ilium*cough* I think that is a rude and uncalled for assumption. I know plenty of other people who are currently in the military or military reserves. A few people are on the forums and a few others I know from my area. But I really don't feel like getting into that discussion.[/SIZE][/quote]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
How is it rude? It is a fact that there is a Lower Class, there is in all countries, and in most Western Nations, the Millitary provides an alternative to bumming around and contributing nothing. Often the only alternative is a dead-end job at McDonalds, and I'd rather join the Millitary, get an education, have a purpose, than flip burgers in the back of a fast-food joint. It's also a fact that Recruiters recruit heavily in Lower class areas because they know that somone working for 7$ an hour is more likely to join than somone who makes 1,200$ a week. [/COLOR]

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]So, you can [i]only[/i] support the troops [i]and[/i] the war, but not just the troops? That doesn't add up to me, I think it has to do with the whole, I supported my ex through this whole army thing, but I really don't agree with this war.

I think the war is wrong.I think the reasons for going to war are wrong and I think Bush is as dumb as a bag of hammers, but that doesn't make me the bad guy. I supprot the troops, I'll support them because they're doing their job, not because I agree with what their boss told them to do.

Okay so give me a cookie since I'm going to put something you said in my signature for a while[/color][/QUOTE]

Your philosophy doesn't quite make sense. There's not a draft. Everyone who is in the military is there on their own volition. Therefore, everyone in the military accepts the responsibility and the consequences of their own actions.
I'm not sure how one can support the troops in Iraq without supporting their actions. That's like saying you support the doctor, but you don't support the surgery he performs. If a man is defined by his actions, and you don't agree with their actions (or think they are morally wrong, of which the supporters of Cindy Sheenan believe) then how can you justify calling him "virtuous"- or "supporting" his behavior?
Hey, I'm not about to say that actions of a soldier are the only qualities that define the soldier as a moral being. However, Cindy Sheenan is basically saying that, as far as her late son is concerned, she opposed with her son's actions (and choice to fight a war she considers unjust). But Cindy won't go out and say it. She's passing the blame up the ladder. She's disrespecting the choice her son made and the risks he accepted. She's not supporting the actions of the troops in Iraq, she opposes every second they remain in the foreign country.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]Your philosophy doesn't quite make sense. There's not a draft. Everyone who is in the military is there on their own volition. Therefore, everyone in the military accepts the responsibility and the consequences of their own actions.
I'm not sure how one can support the troops in Iraq without supporting their actions. That's like saying you support the doctor, but you don't support the surgery he performs. If a man is defined by his actions, and you don't agree with their actions (or think they are morally wrong, of which the supporters of Cindy Sheenan believe) then how can you justify calling him "virtuous"- or "supporting" his behavior?
Hey, I'm not about to say that actions of a soldier are the only qualities that define the soldier as a moral being. However, Cindy Sheenan is basically saying that, as far as her late son is concerned, she opposed with her son's actions (and choice to fight a war she considers unjust). But Cindy won't go out and say it. She's passing the blame up the ladder. She's disrespecting the choice her son made and the risks he accepted. She's not supporting the actions of the troops in Iraq, she opposes every second they remain in the foreign country.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I think that your logic doesn't really make sense. You can support the troops, that they come home safely etc, but can disagree with the war. It's not the Soldiers choice to go into whatever conflict; it's decided by somone else and they don't have a choice but to do it. [/COLOR]