Israelis forced out of Gaza by their Government

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]I heard about this story this morning while I was watching the news. I find it very interesting that Sharon has decided to make such a drastic move.

They also said that Israeli soldiers were helping people tio move their belongings in order to seem more friendly rather than an evicting army. Now [i]that's[/i] a story.

I'm hoping that maybe with Sharon moving people out of Gaza and the West Bank that perhaps there will be a decrease in blood shed. It woudl be a nice change.

And now for a long winded report:

[b]Israel Begins Historic Gaza Withdrawal By GAVIN RABINOWITZ, Associated Press Writer

KISSUFIM CROSSING, Israel - Israel lowered a road barrier sealing the Gaza Strip to Israeli civilians at midnight Sunday ? signaling the start of a historic withdrawal that will end its 38-year occupation, redraw borders and reshape prospects for Mideast peace.


But several hundred settlers vowed stay in their homes and ignore orders to leave Gaza within 48 hours. They were reinforced by up to 5,000 hard-line activists from outside Gaza who planned to block forceful evictions.

Trouble surfaced shortly after the ceremony when hundreds of protesters from the largest settlement, Neve Dekalim, blocked the main road, stopping army vehicles and scuffling with soldiers.

At the border, soldiers lowered a red road barrier at the Kissufim Crossing between Israel and Gaza, with a sign on the barrier reading: "Stop, entry into the Gaza Strip and presence there is prohibited by law."

With about 200 people looking on, the barrier was raised and lowered several times, apparently because of technical problems. Soldiers secured it with a wire to keep it shut.

Two large Israeli flags waved beside the barrier. As it went down, a traffic light changed from green to red and three vans carrying settlers and their belongings drove out of Gaza, never to return.

"The Gaza Strip has been closed today based on the decision of the Israeli government and today another phase begins," said Brig. Gen. Guy Tsur, a senior commander.

The withdrawal, marking the first time Israel gives up settled land claimed by the Palestinians for their future state, comes after months of political wrangling and mass protests. On Sunday, Israeli troops took up positions to launch the evacuation and Palestinian security forces fanned out to prevent militant attacks.

Israel's army chief appealed to troops to show restraint in removing thousands of Jewish settlers from their homes amid concerns that resistance could turn violent after thousands of anti-pullout activists slipped into the territory.

The presence of a few thousand Israelis in Gaza, among 1.3 million Palestinians, has become a security burden, said Vice Premier Ehud Olmert. "The state of Israel does not want to be in the Gaza Strip and does not need to be in the Gaza Strip," he told Israel TV's Channel One.

In the hours leading up to the closure, thousands of Palestinian police moved into positions near Jewish settlements with orders to keep away Palestinian crowds and to prevent attacks by militants during the pullout ? something that Israel warned would bring harsh retaliation.

Officers planted Palestinian flags and pitched tents while some chanted in praise of their late leader, Yasser Arafat. Hundreds of supporters of the militant Islamic Jihad group celebrated in Gaza City, with gunmen firing in the air, and teens setting off fire crackers and distributing sweets. The violent Hamas group organized special midnight prayers of thanks at Gaza mosques.

Palestinian residents watched settlers packing up. "They are actually leaving. Who would have ever thought?" said Palestinian farmer Ziyad Satari, 40, standing on the roof of his three-story home in the Palestinian town of Khan Younis, which overlooks the Morag settlement. Many Palestinians have expressed doubt that the withdrawal will take place.

Palestinian Authority leader Mahmoud Abbas offered the Israelis reassurance.

"We tell the Israeli people, `You have chosen the right path,'" he told Israel TV's Channel 10. "This is the right path. Don't listen to the voices of the extremists who want a continuation of the occupation. I don't want ? and I will not accept ? any clashes with the army or the settlers."

However, there were exchanges of fire early Monday between soldiers and Palestinians near the Kfar Darom settlement, and mortar shells fell in two settlements and near an army base. No casualties were reported.

Early Monday, the military will distribute eviction notices to the settlers, but it called off plans to enter five of the 21 settlements, said army spokeswoman Maj. Sharon Feingold. She said the reason was to "respect the wishes" of the settlers, who preferred to receive the notices by mail. Earlier, settlers there had said they would block the entrances to their villages.

"It is OK to cry with them," the army chief, Lt. Gen. Dan Halutz, told commanders in urging troops to show understanding of the traumatic time for settlers. During the two-day grace period, "we are there to take it and not to dish it out," he added.

However, once forcible removal begins Wednesday morning, soldiers will act with determination, Halutz said.

As part of Prime Minister Ariel Sharon's withdrawal plan, which was approved by parliament, Israel also will evacuate four small settlements in the northern West Bank housing some 500 people.

Many hope the pullout from the territory Israel captured in 1967 will be the start of a true partition of historic Palestine between Arab and Jew.

Others fear it is a ploy by Sharon to get rid of areas he doesn't consider crucial to Israel while consolidating control of parts of the West Bank, where the vast majority of the 240,000 Jewish settlers live.

The Palestinians want to create their own state out of the Gaza Strip and West Bank, with east Jerusalem as their capital.

Halutz estimated Sunday that about 5,000 outsiders had managed to sneak into Gaza in recent weeks despite army restrictions. The hard-line activists pledged to help the several hundred Gaza settlers vowing to ignore the deadline to leave at midnight Tuesday. The protesters planned to try to close off their communities Monday by massing at entrances and blocking roads to prevent soldiers from delivering eviction notices.

But many families packed their belongings and left the Gaza Strip in recent days, and more were leaving Sunday.

In the Peat Sadeh settlement, Yaakov Mazaltareen set fire to his two warehouses that contained irrigation equipment and two vehicles. He used his forklift to knock down what was left of the structures. Settlers stopped to watch. One crying woman rushed her children away.

Most residents of Peat Sadeh already moved to Israel and were spending the weekend in a hotel.

Dozens of anti-pullout protesters put up tents in the beachfront settlement outpost of Shirat Hayam. They turned a dilapidated house into a storeroom, piling up diapers, bottled water and canned foods. Women cooked on open fires, children bathed in makeshift bathrooms and people chatted in open tents.

At a synagogue in Neve Dekalim, Gaza's largest settlement, seven people sat in the sanctuary and quietly prayed. Itai Ben Simchon, 17, came to the synagogue to collect his father's prayer shawl and said his family decided to leave on their own so as not to lose out on compensation money. "My mother and father are crying a lot," he said.

Pinchas Ariel, a farmer from the Ganei Tal settlement, said he also was leaving on his own because he couldn't face clashing with Israeli soldiers. "I was in the army. I have two sons who were paratroopers, and I'm not going to fight my sons," he said.

Earlier Sunday, hundreds of settlers sang traditional prayers of redemption as part of a ceremony at the Gush Katif cemetery to commemorate the Tisha B'Av holy day marking the destruction of the Jewish Temples. The cemetery's 49 graves are to be moved to Israel ? one of the most emotionally charged issues in the pullout.

Vice Premier Shimon Peres gave a pep talk to troops near the Gaza border.

"The settlements must be evacuated. They cannot stay here," he told reporters. "I understand that there are feelings. I have sympathy (for the settlers), but they cannot replace a national choice."[/b]

Here's hoping right?[/color]

[SilentSecurity]

I find this disturbing really. It is an answer to the problems, but is it the best they could come up with. i understand that if they didn't do something bloodshed would continue. If they split the land right down the middle, people still wouldn't be satisfied and they'd kill over the part the didn't get.

I understand the whole Religious meaning behind this strip of land, but is it really worth all the killing? I guess they think so. It's an answer, but is it the right one? I really don't think so. Peace is the only answer that will ever satisfy both sides, and the chances of that happening are looking slimmer everyday.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=SilentSecurity]

I understand the whole Religious meaning behind this strip of land, but is it really worth all the killing? I guess they think so. It's an answer, but is it the right one? I really don't think so. Peace is the only answer that will ever satisfy both sides, and the chances of that happening are looking slimmer everyday.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
The chances aren't just slim, as long as one is Muslim and the other is Jewish (See: the Koran) there will always be a war. Even if they weren't fighting because of religion, the Muslims have a right to be pissed off; Isreal was an illegal country that was illegally created, I think that they'd try and destroy it no matter what happens.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

The subject of Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip have been the topic of debate and news coverage for the last few months. Personally I'm rather pleased Prime Minister Sharon has been able to implement the pull out with a decent level of success, though I don't think anyone really expected all the Israeli settlers to leave Gaza right away. For those who defy the order to leave, well I can only hope that when they are removed they'll go along peacefully. Gaza and the West Bank are rightfully Palestinian territory and the occupation has been hardest on them, I can only hope the Palestinians achieve some measure of peace from the move, and the violence decreases.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I have family in Gaza, and these withdrawl makes me happy. I'm getting sick and tired of Israel makeing settlement everywhere, and not permitting palestinians to build (or rebuild) their homes. Palestinians outnumber Israelis tremendously, and it's about time they stop invading on the little land palestinians have left to themsleves.[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Stop invading? They beat Palestine in the Three Days War (I think). They won fair and square. This was the land they got.

The withdrawl from Gaza gave me bittersweet emotions. Happy, that there might be some peace with the radical Palestinian bombers [temporarily?] satiated, but sad that so many people got evicted from their homes. I put myself in the Israelite's shoes, and realized how bad the situation must suck for those settlers 'living' in the disputed land. It's really sad that Arafat wasn't open to peace, I'm entirely happy that man is gone. For good. Perhaps there can be some rational peace talks rather than these insane suicide bombings and helecopter attacks and whatnot.[/SIZE]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]I had been hearing something on the news about Israel pulling out, but I thought it was in the West Bank, and not the Gaza Strip. Isn't the Gaza strip in the north-ish, and near mountains, which would make it easier to be attacked by Palestinians? Or am I thinking of something completely random and off-topic...? If it is, though, I'm surprised they'd give up that type of territory.

But hey. I'm glad Sharon and Abbas have decided to grow up and stop acting like children. =) Today is monday - I hope nobody gets un-necessarily antsy in the next two days (Wednesday when the last of Iraelis will be evicted), and decides to cause trouble.

And on another note, I hope Abbas can continue to be strong after this happens, and continue peace with Israel. More things seem to be getting done now that Afarat is gone. I would really hate for some awful coup to occur and have him be deposed. X_x [/color]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]The civilians are getting [i]really[/i] cheesed off right now about being forced to move. Sharon sent his troops over to try and get the people to move peacefuly but they barricaded off one of the main roads.

The troops didn't do anything in retaliation though. All they did is stand around for a while and leave. I'm really hoping thsi all ends peacefully, but it sucks that the two main religious groups in the region can't just suck it up and cohabitate like adults. I mean they're worshiping the same God, right?[/color]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet]The civilians are getting [i]really[/i] cheesed off right now about being forced to move. Sharon sent his troops over to try and get the people to move peacefuly but they barricaded off one of the main roads.

The troops didn't do anything in retaliation though. All they did is stand around for a while and leave. I'm really hoping thsi all ends peacefully, but it sucks that the two main religious groups in the region can't just suck it up and cohabitate like adults. I mean they're worshiping the same God, right?[/color][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
I agree, I hope that the this all goes off without another massive war and blood shed, I hope that the local militants don't get any anti-semertic ideas. We'll see. But the two main religious groups, especially Islam, will never get along. In the Qu'ran it even says that the Jews are the 'Greediest human beings alive' or somthing like that, and that they are all bad in the eyes of Al'lah. I'm not exactly sure, but devout Muslims will most likely always hate Jews, because to not hate Jews is againts the fundimentals of the Religion. Unless Islam goes through a major reform, like the Catholics did, the Muslim nations will never get along with Isreal.[/COLOR]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']I agree, I hope that the this all goes off without another massive war and blood shed, I hope that the local militants don't get any anti-semertic ideas. We'll see. But the two main religious groups, especially Islam, will never get along. In the Qu'ran it even says that the Jews are the 'Greediest human beings alive' or somthing like that, and that they are all bad in the eyes of Al'lah. I'm not exactly sure, but devout Muslims will most likely always hate Jews, because to not hate Jews is againts the fundimentals of the Religion. Unless Islam goes through a major reform, like the Catholics did, the Muslim nations will never get along with Isreal.[/COLOR][/quote]"It's fundamental to hate jews"? :eek: Sorry, but what source are you getting this garbage information from?

The Quran mentions many tribes and nations, all of whom were sent prophets to guide them to the right path. Of all these tribes and nations, only few actually listened to the prophets and the rest didn't. Of all these tribes, and nations, the jews were sent the most prophets, and the gave the most trouble (they've been around a long time). That's it really. So there were jews that were good. Many of the prophets and their followers were jews.

[B]Edit: Sorry, I worded the above paragrapgh incorrectly. I meant that [B]within[/B] these tribes and nations, most people didn't listen.[/B]

And that doesn't give us the right to hurt jews for no reason at all. But still to this day, many of them, (in Islam's view) are still defying God.

The term "jew" can be difficult to understand, because it refers to both a race and a religion. There are jews who are athiest, and there are arabs who are jews. I haven't heard of this, but there could be jews who are muslim too.

"The muslim nation aren't getting along with Israel" because we believe the jews (jewish religion, not race) have been denied that land because they defied God so many times. Those who are followind judaism are still defying God now.

And in addition, they did invade land that palestinians were living on. Now I understand tha jews believe that the land belongs to them, and that they actually must fight and remove those living in the land and build that nation called Israel. I respect those believes. But muslims believe otherwise, so at the same time we must fight them and stop them from invading the land we call ours.

In my opinion, I think palestinians should fight back, but not by bombing civilians. Not a drop of blood should be shed from the innocent. The only way is build up an army and conduct proper warfare.

But of course, we'd all like peace right now. And the only way is for both sides to compromise. If jews don't want to compromise, neither will the palestinians, and vice versa.

It's a bit difficult. Jews believe they must actually remove palestinians. That's why the arabs are so keen to keep fighting. It's a matter of mistrust. Even if the jews just want to live in the land right now, they will eventually try to get all palestinians out, and even take over jordan, lebanon, and syrria, because the all used to be one with palestine.

Anyway...

As a palestinian, all I want is rights for my people, and to be able to go back to my homeland peacefully. I have no problem living alongside jews, as long as they don't deny us our rights, and allowing us access to jerusalem and the mosque peacefully, and a palestinian state.

[/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

The pull out is the stupidest thing the Israeli government could do. Here comes war.

People are going to start rebelling all over the place now, because they think that they can do the same as the palestinians. Israel is a middle eastern military powerhouse, and a string of suicide bombings has defeated them. Everyone that thinks there own country would make their life better (even the ones that really have no clue just how complicated it is to run a country) will join in this "Me too" mentality.

The truth is, as "oppressed" as palestinians say they were, Israel won the land that they live on. The palestinians being angry would be like a house being foreclosed and sold to a wealthy person. The former owner has no claim in the house. If you don't like where you live, then by all means, leave.

[quote name='Chabichou']And a palestinian state.[/quote]
The truth is, not everyone needs a seperate country to live peacefully. Why can't people just skip the bloodshed and work at something? Have the leader try to get into the current government. People are much more willing to negociate when they aren't being blow to pieces.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Morpheus']The truth is, not everyone needs a seperate country to live peacefully. Why can't people just skip the bloodshed and work at something? Have the leader try to get into the current government. People are much more willing to negociate when they aren't being blow to pieces.[/quote]Well, Israel is intended to be [B]the[/B] jewish state. Jews only. They don't want palestinians there in the first place. It would work out much better if two states were developed. [/COLOR]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Well, Israel is intended to be [B]the[/B'] jewish state. Jews only. They don't want palestinians there in the first place. It would work out much better if two states were developed. [/COLOR][/quote]
As true as that may be, was all of the bloodshed necessary? Why not just ask for more control? After years of war(even victory after victory) a country needs time to rest, and sacrificing some power would have been a possible action.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]"It's fundamental to hate jews"? :eek: Sorry, but what source are you getting this garbage information from?

The Quran mentions many tribes and nations, all of whom were sent prophets to guide them to the right path. Of all these tribes and nations, only few actually listened to the prophets and the rest didn't. Of all these tribes, and nations, the jews were sent the most prophets, and the gave the most trouble (they've been around a long time). That's it really. So there were jews that were good. Many of the prophets and their followers were jews.

[B]Edit: Sorry, I worded the above paragrapgh incorrectly. I meant that [B]within[/B] these tribes and nations, most people didn't listen.[/B]

And that doesn't give us the right to hurt jews for no reason at all. But still to this day, many of them, (in Islam's view) are still defying God.

The term "jew" can be difficult to understand, because it refers to both a race and a religion. There are jews who are athiest, and there are arabs who are jews. I haven't heard of this, but there could be jews who are muslim too.

"The muslim nation aren't getting along with Israel" because we believe the jews (jewish religion, not race) have been denied that land because they defied God so many times. Those who are followind judaism are still defying God now.

And in addition, they did invade land that palestinians were living on. Now I understand tha jews believe that the land belongs to them, and that they actually must fight and remove those living in the land and build that nation called Israel. I respect those believes. But muslims believe otherwise, so at the same time we must fight them and stop them from invading the land we call ours.

In my opinion, I think palestinians should fight back, but not by bombing civilians. Not a drop of blood should be shed from the innocent. The only way is build up an army and conduct proper warfare.

But of course, we'd all like peace right now. And the only way is for both sides to compromise. If jews don't want to compromise, neither will the palestinians, and vice versa.

It's a bit difficult. Jews believe they must actually remove palestinians. That's why the arabs are so keen to keep fighting. It's a matter of mistrust. Even if the jews just want to live in the land right now, they will eventually try to get all palestinians out, and even take over jordan, lebanon, and syrria, because the all used to be one with palestine.

Anyway...

As a palestinian, all I want is rights for my people, and to be able to go back to my homeland peacefully. I have no problem living alongside jews, as long as they don't deny us our rights, and allowing us access to jerusalem and the mosque peacefully, and a palestinian state.

[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
If it makes you feel any better I don't think that the Jews (As a religion) have any claim to Isreal with any material substance (Saying that they deserve it because God said so is not a reason to have a country IMO) and that the country itself is Illegal, but when they start taking things over it just crosses the line. I don't think that even the Jews as a race deserve the land, since the only people who really have any claim to it are the Bedouin Nomads.

Also, I found that 'garbage' in the Qu'Ran. I don't remember the surrah, but it says somthing like 'Jews are the greediest peoples on earth and are never to be given a moments peace' or somthing along those lines. I'm looking for where I read it, and when I find it I'll post the actual quote. My point was that the Muslim literalists and the Jewish literalists will never be at peace unless both religions go through a MAJOR reform, similar to what the Catholics did. [/COLOR]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]This is really good, in my opinion. Obviously, there are many issues left to be worked on, but moving out the settlers is a good step in the right direction.

I think that Palestine and Israel should merge to form Israelistine. Obviously, it's not going to happen. But one can hope :p[/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']I don't think that even the Jews as a race deserve the land, since the only people who really have any claim to it are the Bedouin Nomads.[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Well, I mentioned earlier that the Bedouins were nomadic, and as a result had no 'homeland.' If you're moving from place to place, you don't have a land to consider yours in the first place.

And the Native American tribes inhabited North America, so I don't think that we have any claim on this land, either. Maybe we should just pack up and leave. >_>[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]Well, I mentioned earlier that the Bedouins were nomadic, and as a result had no 'homeland.' If you're moving from place to place, you don't have a land to consider yours in the first place.

And the Native American tribes inhabited North America, so I don't think that we have any claim on this land, either. Maybe we should just pack up and leave. >_>[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
The Mongoliods were Nomadic, as were the Scythians and Armenians (Temporarily) and, well, pretty much every culture in the Steppes and Plains were Nomades, but they all lay claim to some homeland or another.

There is a slight difference between the two. Europeans (Brits, French, Spainiards etc.) colonized North America and created an empire; they faught for this land and the Natives were unable to put aside petty squables, unite and defeat them. The point is that the Europeans faught tooth-and-nail to take it, and though I don't agree with the methods, North America was taken. Isreal, however, was simply created by the UN illegally in the middle of already occupied Muslim lands as a homeland for the Jews, based on the simple reason that their God had promised it too them; if that's not the most crooked, skewed reason to creat a country I'd like to see another.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed]
The Mongoliods were Nomadic, as were the Scythians and Armenians (Temporarily) and, well, pretty much every culture in the Steppes and Plains were Nomades, but they all lay claim to some homeland or another.

There is a slight difference between the two. Europeans (Brits, French, Spainiards etc.) colonized North America and created an empire; they faught for this land and the Natives were unable to put aside petty squables, unite and defeat them. The point is that the Europeans faught tooth-and-nail to take it, and though I don't agree with the methods, North America was taken. Isreal, however, was simply created by the UN illegally in the middle of already occupied Muslim lands as a homeland for the Jews, based on the simple reason that their God had promised it too them; if that's not the most crooked, skewed reason to creat a country I'd like to see another.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[SIZE=1]
From what I've researched, Israel wasn't created because the UN decided to let people return to their Promised Land. The UN partitioned Palestine because Jews had immigrated there to escape the Holocaust. The increase of Jews didn't go over well with the Arabs, and the Arabs attacked the Jews.[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]
From what I've researched, Israel wasn't created because the UN decided to let people return to their Promised Land. The UN partitioned Palestine because Jews had immigrated there to escape the Holocaust. The increase of Jews didn't go over well with the Arabs, and the Arabs attacked the Jews.[/SIZE][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

Nontheless, the government of Isreal was grafted from the country that was already occupying the area. Any violent assualts on Jews could only increase if they created the Jewish state of Isreal out of a Muslim country. It turned from the occasional beating, murders, and riots into full-scale war that has raged since the creation of Isreal.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Nontheless, the government of Isreal was grafted from the country that was already occupying the area. Any violent assualts on Jews could only increase if they created the Jewish state of Isreal out of a Muslim country. It turned from the occasional beating, murders, and riots into full-scale war that has raged since the creation of Isreal.[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Well, if that's true, it's a much different explaination than:
[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Saying that they deserve it because God said so is not a reason to have a country IMO) and that the country itself is Illegal[/COLOR][/quote]

Yes, they did say that it was rightfully theirs, but that's not even remotely why the UN gave them the land.

Really, the country's legal. They have legal claims on the land, issued by the UN. It's not like they overthrew Palestine and split to form the Israel we have today. As far as I'm concerned, they got the land through a very much more fair, humane process than how North America got claimed.[/SIZE]

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Retribution][SIZE=1]Well, if that's true, it's a much different explaination than:


Yes, they did say that it was rightfully theirs, but that's not even remotely why the UN gave them the land.

Really, the country's legal. They have legal claims on the land, issued by the UN. It's not like they overthrew Palestine and split to form the Israel we have today. As far as I'm concerned, they got the land through a very much more fair, humane process than how North America got claimed.[/SIZE][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkRed]

From what I've heard the Jewish Isrealites treat the Muslim Isrealites like the Muslims treate the Jews; like second class citizens. By createing Isreal all that is done is that the Muslim world now has a target for it's prejudice; the Leaders (Who tend to be fanatical) can now declare total war on a country to inflict their damage on the Jews instead of just a few isolated cases. Even if it was legal it's not a good idea.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Morpheus]The pull out is the stupidest thing the Israeli government could do. Here comes war.

People are going to start rebelling all over the place now, because they think that they can do the same as the Palestinians. Israel is a middle eastern military powerhouse, and a string of suicide bombings has defeated them. Everyone that thinks there own country would make their life better (even the ones that really have no clue just how complicated it is to run a country) will join in this "Me too" mentality.

The truth is, as "oppressed" as Palestinians say they were, Israel won the land that they live on. The Palestinians being angry would be like a house being foreclosed and sold to a wealthy person. The former owner has no claim in the house. If you don't like where you live, then by all means, leave.

The truth is, not everyone needs a separate country to live peacefully. Why can't people just skip the bloodshed and work at something? Have the leader try to get into the current government. People are much more willing to negotiate when they aren't being blow to pieces.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Put simply Morpheus there have only ever been two sides in this conflict, the Israelis and the Palestinians, the West Bank and Gaza Strip are Palestinian territory, as recognised by the European Union, the United States and is recognised by nearly half the world's governments. First off, there are no and have never been any other sides in this conflict other than them so saying that because the Jewish settlements and settlers in the Gaza Strip are being removed there are going to be a further bunch of people looking to found their own countries because of this is utter folly.

Secondly it?s not as if a ?string? of suicide bombings has brought about this pull-out, this has been the result of the Palestinian and Israeli peace talks that have been going on for years, this a politically motivated decision by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and is not the result of a successful campaign of suicide bombings. There of course may have been concern for Jewish settlers which may have influenced Prime Minister Sharon and his government, but it's not as if this is a full-scale retreat against insurmountable Palestinian guerrilla tactics.

Perhaps not everyone needs a separate country in order to live in peace, but in this case the Palestinians have a right to their own country under their own government, that isn't subject to invasion by the Israeli military at will. Your comparison of a foreclosed house is at best flawed, the Gaza Strip and West back and recognised Palestinian territories and as such the Palestinians are not the "former owners" with Israel as the "wealthy person". As such the Palestinians have every right to stay in an area of land that has a massive Palestinian majority, which is recognised as being theirs.

Of course people are willing to work together more closely if there's no threat of violence, but you have to ask why the violence is happening in the first place. The Palestinians feel that what was their nation up to about sixty years ago has been erased by Israeli attacks, their settlements have been repeatedly occupied by Israelis and as they don't have a proper standing army this is the only way some extremists find they can fight to achieve Palestine's independence. I disagree with their methods but as an Irish person who knows exactly what invasion and occupation by a foreign power feels like, well I can sympathise with them, well the moderate ones.

And as I said before the leadership of both "nations" seeing as how Palestine isn't fully recognised by the U.N. have been working together, President Mahmoud Abbas has been working far more closely than his predecessor in order to achieve a peaceful resolution to this conflict. [/SIZE]

[quote name='Morpheus']As true as that may be, was all of the bloodshed necessary? Why not just ask for more control? After years of war (even victory after victory) a country needs time to rest, and sacrificing some power would have been a possible action.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Yes of course a country needs a rest from violence, but when one group feels that it won't ever be represented fairly then you're going to have violence whether you like it or not. [/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']From what I've heard the Jewish Isrealites treat the Muslim Isrealites like the Muslims treate the Jews; like second class citizens. By createing Isreal all that is done is that the Muslim world now has a target for it's prejudice; the Leaders (Who tend to be fanatical) can now declare total war on a country to inflict their damage on the Jews instead of just a few isolated cases. Even if it was legal it's not a good idea.[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Regardless of it being a 'good idea,' it happened, and these settlers being moved are still reality.

Israel becoming a target of prejudice is not grounds for deeming the nation's creation 'a bad idea.' "Oh no, we'll be discriminated against... let's not stand up and do what we believe in." The Jews wanted their own country, and they got it. America's behind Israel, so I highly doubt any of those fanatical countries are going to be in any rush to attack.[/SIZE]

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1][b]Quoted from Ninemsn[/b]:" KFAR DAROM SETTLEMENT - Jewish protestors hurled acid at police attempting to evict them from a Gaza Strip synagogue, in the most violent confrontations since Israel began its historic pullout from the territory.

The incident in the isolated settlement of Kfar Darom, which wounded two dozen police, came as Israel pressed on for a second day to remove remaining settlers and protestors who have refused to obey orders to quit Gaza for ever.

Troops succeeded in dragging out almost all the protestors in the synagogues at Kfar Darom and in the main settlement of Neve Dekalim as Israel's withdrawal from the territory after 38 years of occupation proceeded apace.

Over half the 21 settlements were reported empty and Israeli officials were predicting that Israel's first ever withdrawal from Palestinian territory would be over by early next week.

The scenes of Jewish soldiers locked in confrontation with settlers and their sympathisers were repeated elsewhere in Gaza, with security forces finding themselves the targets of insults, rotten eggs, and tins of food.

"We have several policemen who have been wounded by acid and we will apply the full force of the law," General Dan Harel, in charge of the pullout, told reporters. Medical sources said that 45 people, including 27 police, were wounded during Thursday's operations. Some 100 radical Jews were arrested after the Kfar Darom clashes.

Some officers were seen leaving the synagogue in only their underwear and were seen washing themselves down with water after they were sprayed with the liquid.

A young woman clutching her child was among those who were herded out of the synagogue, whose foundation stone was ironically laid by Prime Minister Ariel Sharon, the settlers' one-time champion now turned foe.

But as the brilliant blue skies gave way to nightfall, it appeared that the security forces had gained the upper hand, with screaming protestors being hauled out one-by-one by their hands and feet to waiting coaches.

One Israeli soldier was seen refusing to carry out his orders to drag out the settlers before being pulled away by other soldiers and policemen.

Similar dramatic scenes were also played out at the synagogue in the main settlement of Neve Dekalim, as Israeli forces pushed forward with the first ever withdrawal from occupied Palestinian land that many Jews believe was promised to them by God.

There, teenage and adult religious Jews were being carried out by their arms and legs, screaming abuse at the unarmed police who raided the synagogue after the estimated 2,000 inside defied an ultimatum to leave voluntarily and end a two-day standoff.

Israeli troops also cleared the messianic beachside settlement of Shirat Hayam, believed to be the most radical of all, dragging settlers out of their homes and manhandling them onto buses.

"This is one of the saddest moments of my life. It's disgusting throwing these Jews out of here. These families sacrificed their lives," said 18-year-old sympathiser Toby.

"Shame on you," shrieked residents as an army bulldozer smashed its way into Netzer Hazani, the oldest settlement in the land seized by Israel in the 1967 war.

In the Kfar Yam settlement, scores of Israeli soldiers raided a house where an armed Jewish settler and around 30 people, including children, had barricaded themselves inside.

On the second day of the forcible clearance of the 21 Jewish settlements in Gaza, seven settlements had been completely evacuated, while another seven are virtually empty.

Palestinians have welcomed the pullout as a victory for the resistance to four decades of Israeli occupation, while the international community hopes it will mark a new page in efforts to bring peace to the Middle East.

Some 70 percent of the estimated 8,000 settlers have left, public radio reported, although their numbers were swelled by around 5,000 infiltrators. The final Israelis are to be evacuated by Monday or Tuesday, it said.

Meanwhile, a West Bank settler who gunned down four Palestinians on the first day of the forcible evacuation on Wednesday said he had no remorse, as thoughts turned to the future of Gaza after the withdrawal.

"I am not sorry for what I have done. I wanted to stop the pullout and I hope someone murders Sharon as well," Asher Weisgan told reporters as he was brought by police to a court near Tel Aviv.

Palestinian leader Mahmud Abbas, who has a force of some 7,500 deployed to prevent militant attacks, urged calm in the aftermath of the killings although radical groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad vowed revenge.

The jailed leader of the Palestinian uprising, Marwan Barghuti, hailed the pullout as a "victory for the resistance" over the Israeli occupation in the teeming Gaza Strip, where 1.3 million Palestinians live in mostly abject poverty.

Sharon said he had been moved to tears seeing Jews being hauled from their homes by Jews, and has pledged to pursue settlement activity in the West Bank -- action that defies an internationally-drafted peace plan for the Middle East.

A spokesman for Sharon, Raanan Gissin, said the next days would be crucial for Israel's leaders "to find a way to reconcile the differences, to heal the wounds that have been created by events like this."[/size]

[Morpheus]

The foreclosed house was just a comparison that Israel has the land now, and for the palestinians to demand land that they lost in war is just ridiculous. They still live there, so they should shut up and be happy that [B]they[/B] weren't force out when they were defeated.

[Genzo]

To me, a Palestinian who has been denied his homeland all of his life, the Israeli withdrawl from Gaza Represents the Ultimate GOOD RIDANCE.

I am so happy that the Palestinians can finally move around with ease, reopen the destroyed airport and seaport and rebuild them, no longer fear the radical settlers that poision their drinking water and spread chemicals on fields used by shepards for grazing.

At the same time I also realise something else, to all of those who say to me that I dont need a homeland to be happy, I have this to say: GIVE THEM YOUR LAND, MY LAND IS NOT YOUR TO DISTRIBUTE TO ZIONISTS YOU FACIST PIG!

As soon as the Airport re-opens I will be able to visit my father much easier. for this i have one people to thank, Hamas, PIJ, PFLP, DFLP, PFLP-GC, Fatah and all the other resistance movements that have made our dream of having our own nation a reality.

Death To Israel, Zionism and all those who support them