Televangelist Underfire

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet]Who knows, maybe you've heard this maybe not- all I'll say is damn that's screwed up. Here's the whole story.:

[quote=CBS.com][b](CBS/AP) Venezuela's vice president accused religious broadcaster Pat Robertson on Tuesday of making "terrorist statements" by suggesting that American agents assassinate President Hugo Chavez.

"We have the ability to take him out, and I think the time has come that we exercise that ability," Robertson said Monday on the Christian Broadcast Network's "The 700 Club."

"We don't need another $200 billion war to get rid of one, you know, strong-arm dictator," he continued. "It's a whole lot easier to have some of the covert operatives do the job and then get it over with."

Chavez was winding up a visit to Cuba when he was asked at Havana's airport about a U.S. religious leader having said he should be killed.

"I haven't read anything. We haven't heard anything about him," Chavez said. "I don't even know who that person is."

CBS News Producer Portia Siegelbaum reports that Chavez, when asked about Robertson's call for his assasination, said he'd rather talk about life not death.

Chavez, dressed in his trademark long sleeve red shirt, proceeded to talk about Plan Milagro, a joint Cuban-Venezuelan medical project to return eyesight to tens of thousands of Latin America's poor by performing eye operations free of charge, Siegelbaum reports.

Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel said Venezuela was studying its legal options, adding that how Washington responds to Robertson's comments would put its anti-terrorism policy to the test.

"The ball is in the U.S. court, after this criminal statement by a citizen of that country," Rangel told reporters. "It's huge hypocrisy to maintain this discourse against terrorism and at the same time, in the heart of that country, there are entirely terrorist statements like those."

CBS News Correspondent Gloria Borger reports that this is not the first time Robertson has made controversial statements. Recently he said on national television that so-called activist judges were worse than the 9/11 terrorists.

Relations between the Chavez government and the Bush administration have been strained for some time, reports CBS News State Department Reporter Charles Wolfson, but Robertson's call for assassination was something the State Department wanted no part of.

CBS/AP) State Department spokesman Sean McCormack called Robertson's remarks "inappropriate."

"This is not the policy of the United States government. We do not share his views," McCormack said.

Secretary of Defense Donald H. Rumsfeld, appearing at a Pentagon news conference, said when asked: "Our department doesn't do that kind of thing. It's against the law. He's a private citizen. Private citizens say all kinds of things all the time."

There was no immediate comment from Chavez, who was winding up an official visit to Cuba on Tuesday. Scores of journalists awaited Chavez at the airport, where he was to board a plane for a trip to Jamaica to discuss a Venezuela initiative to supply petroleum to Caribbean countries under favorable financial terms.

Chavez has emerged as one of the most outspoken critics of President Bush, accusing the United States of conspiring to topple his government and possibly backing plots to assassinate him. U.S. officials have called the accusations ridiculous.

"You know, I don't know about this doctrine of assassination, but if he thinks we're trying to assassinate him, I think that we really ought to go ahead and do it," Robertson said. "It's a whole lot cheaper than starting a war ... and I don't think any oil shipments will stop."

Rangel called Robertson "a man who seems to have quite a bit of influence in that country," adding sarcastically that his words were "very Christian."

The comments "reveal that religious fundamentalism is one of the great problems facing humanity in these times," Rangel said.

Robertson's remarks appear likely to further stoke tensions between Washington and Caracas. Chavez has repeatedly claimed that American officials are plotting to oust or kill him ? charges U.S. officials have denied.

The United States is the top buyer of Venezuelan crude, but Chavez has made it clear he wants to decrease the country's dependence on the U.S. market by finding other buyers.

"A part of the danger of this is that people will take him at his word and believe that he actually speaks with some kind of divine mandate," Dr. Bill Leonard, dean and professor of church history at Wake Forest University's School of Divinity, told CBS Radio News.

"It also feeds the idea that America ... has a particular kind of Christianity that is destructive and promotes war and assassination."

Chavez has survived a brief 2002 coup, a devastating two-month strike that ended in early 2003 and recall referendum in 2004. The former army paratroop commander, a close ally of Cuban leader Fidel Castro, is up for re-election next year, and polls suggest he is the favorite. [/b][/quote]

You know I hate to throw this word around but this guy is a friggin' hypocrite. How does 'Assasinate this guy' manage to sound Christian? Maybe I just didn't hear him say it the way it should be said?

Oh well, read and share your veiws.[/color]

[Morpheus]

No matter how big of an idiot this guy makes out of himself, the "ball" is most definately not in our court. We can't take responsibility for every citizen's opinions.

[Lafleur]

[COLOR=DarkRed]Geez, I've been hearing about this nutcase for months. I still remember when he had a show asking people to pray for an opening on the supreme court justice, which is a lifetime job (So basically he was asking God to kill somone for him) and when he had the same show ask for a hurricane hit Disney Land because it had 'Gay Days' or somthing like that. This guy is a real piece of work.

He's just a washed-up-has-been-former-presidential-canditate who's looking to soak up the gullable Right-Wing Uber-Christians and whatever attention he can get from them the happier he is. Asking to have God get a guy [I]assassinate[/I] is just bloody inane. He's really over-the-top, this is why Fox should cease to exist; for giving nutballls like this a chance to spread their nuttery. I can name other programs that can get the boot, too.[/COLOR]

[Brasil]

You know...I don't know which is more insanely disturbing?

Jerry Falwell saying we need to hunt down the terrorists in the name of God, or Pat Robertson playing Pretend Overt CIA Agents.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Siren]You know...I don't know which is more insanely disturbing?

Jerry Falwell saying we need to hunt down the terrorists in the name of God, or Pat Robertson playing Pretend Overt CIA Agents.[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet]Yes, but isn't he a nice distraction from the rising price of gas? Too bad he doesn't get it in his head to pray for that. :animesigh [/color]

[Bloodseeker]

My question is why the hell did the news people need to go and make a big deal out of it? If they hadn't brought it up, I never would have known, and there's a good chance that it never would have reached the middle east and made things even more tense than they already were.

Sometimes the stupidity of our news media amazes me...

[Brasil]

[QUOTE=Bloodseeker]My question is why the hell did the news people need to go and make a big deal out of it? If they hadn't brought it up, I never would have known, and there's a good chance that it never would have [u][b]reached the middle east[/b][/u] and made things even more tense than they already were.

Sometimes the stupidity of our news media amazes me...[/QUOTE]
You may want to check a world map there, fella. Specifically, one of South America/Central America. ^_^;;

[Bloodseeker]

Whoops. :animeswea

Well, it sounded like a Middle Eastern country... I was wondering what a middle eastern leader was doing in South America.

[Pumpkin]

[quote name='Ilium][COLOR=DarkRed']Geez, I've been hearing about this nutcase for months. I still remember when he had a show asking people to pray for an opening on the supreme court justice, which is a lifetime job (So basically he was asking God to kill somone for him) and when he had the same show ask for a hurricane hit Disney Land because it had 'Gay Days' or somthing like that. This guy is a real piece of work.[/COLOR][/quote][SIZE=1]This one made me laugh. But anyways, there are tons of nutballs out there and CHW is right. Probably to distract us from our other problems that we like to complain about. There are always going to be people who use christianity for their own benefits and eventually karma is going to catch up to him. Forshame, trying to kill off a person. [/SIZE]

[Sara]

[color=#6699cc]Imagine if he and Chavez were classmates! Robertson would be expelled and have this put on his permanent record. Yay for zero tolerance! ...Ahem.[quote name='Rumsfeld in the article']"He's a private citizen. Private citizens say all kinds of things all the time."[/quote]Oh, those crazy private citizens!

The whole thing just seems very bizarre to me. I mean, since when does [i]anyone[/i] pay attention to televangelists? And suddenly one is thrust into the national news, huzzah! At least this is more interesting than a misappropriation of funds.

[quote name='Mr. Robertson's website']Robertson's ancestry includes Benjamin Harrison, a signer of the Declaration of Independence and governor of Virginia, and two United States presidents, William Henry Harrison and Benjamin Harrison, the great-grandson of the signer of the Declaration of Independence. Robertson also shares ancestry with Winston Churchill.[/quote]Things like this crack me up, too. I mean...[i]why?[/i] It's not like that makes him a noble or anything. Bizarre.[/color]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=Bloodseeker]
Well, it sounded like a Middle Eastern country...[/QUOTE]

Yes, [I]Venezuela[/I] is such an arabic-sounding name. Venezuela, Pakistan - who could tell them a part! ;D

Sorry to laugh at your expense, but this was just too funny... (And please don't take this too seriously.)

Anygays, I'm more disturbed that this televangelist guy probably has thousands of followers and disciples, all going "Yeah! God wants us to kill Chavez!". And did he really pray for a hurricane to hit DisneyLand? But... what about all the kids there?!

How insane people manage to have so much influence on "normal" people? It just goes beyond my imagination!

[TheShinje]

[size=1][color=Gray]I've watched the 700 Club quite a few times, and it's difficult to tell wether Pat is being serious or having a joke-around. The remarks themselves started very candidly, in a nutshell it's "if he think's we are out to assasinate him, maybe we should"

I don't think it was the right thing to say, and he probably took it a bit too far, but then again, I doubt he's trying to rally the faithful in some kind of "holy crusade" against Chavez.

[quote name='Rangel][/color][/size][color=darkviolet][size=1][color=Gray']The comments "reveal that religious fundamentalism is one of the great problems facing humanity in these times," Rangel said. [/quote] [/color][/size][size=1][color=Gray]
I just wanted to add that Religious fundamentalism isn't always taking terror to the unbelievers, it's following your faith closely, I don't see how a Christian fundamentalist, who loves his neighbour and does good to others and foirgives sinenrs is really a threat tot he world. :p If he seriously did mean that we should assasinate the guy, then he's acting out-of-step with Christian teaching,a nd hence, is [b]not[/b] a fundamentalist.[/color][/size][/color]

[Ryo the Tactician]

Though slightly less forcefully, I have to go with Ilium.

What was this guy thinking?? We should assassinate a leader who doesn't agree with our policies? Saying that we have the ability and we should go ahead and [U]assassinate[/U] him? I mean, what the heck? We're America. I mean, sure, we go into other countries whom we don't like, overthrow their government, steal their oil to pay "for our help" and leave half the people without water or electricity, but at least...well, it's just plain crazy for this guy to call for the assassination of a political leader just because he's not savvy on America's ideals. Sure, I don't agree with Chavez, but there's no way in heck it's our place to kill him just because we don't like him.

Might I add, that when Islam was still the new young upstart, and they conquered Christian provinces, they did not kill them. Muhammad thought that, before him, prophets/angels had appeared to the founders of the religions before. They had just got the message wrong. He and his followers believed that Christianity was something of a "impure" slightly off version of Islam. They thought that, however, Christians were still followers of "the Book". They let them live there lives, with little interference but a tax. That's the thing- Submission. In fact, I believe Islam means submit/submission. They didn't kill the Christians, but they made them submit to their authority.
~R.E.

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Evil Jedi][size=1][color=Gray]

[/color][/size][size=1][color=Gray]
I just wanted to add that Religious fundamentalism isn't always taking terror to the unbelievers, it's following your faith closely, I don't see how a Christian fundamentalist, who loves his neighbour and does good to others and foirgives sinenrs is really a threat tot he world. :p If he seriously did mean that we should assasinate the guy, then he's acting out-of-step with Christian teaching,a nd hence, is [b]not[/b] a fundamentalist.[/color][/size][/color][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
Well, religious fundimentalism is a very fickle thing. Somone out there looks at the bible, reads the bible, studies the bible, and gets the impression that God wants to kill everyone who's not Christian. What does this person do? The will of God. It's better described as Literalism than Fundementalism, Fundementalism is a word thrown around to often today. Still, people who go on TV and preach 'If you do not accept Jesus as your lord and saviour you will go to hell' and all that stuff, people who come to your door and persist that you convert to Christianity or whathaveyou, that's the current extent of Christian Literalism. If you think about it, Islamic Fundementalism is the same thing on a much more radical level. In Islam's position Christianity would more-then-likely have been preverted in the same way.[/COLOR]

[Maully]

[COLOR=SeaGreen]I believe extremism more than fumdamentalism is the word we might be looking for. At their cores, both Christianity and Islam are peace teaching faiths that promote love for people. It is people who take the minority of teachings and embrace them fiercely that we may be talking about.

As for this guy, I've seen him, and while he has the right to say whatever he wants, I will use the same right to say I find him nutty. I agree with Sage, that more than he, it is the [i]followers[/i] that maybe a problem. Hopefully we don't have any rogue covert agent to do his bidding. lol Besides, does he think an assassination won't start a war? Has anyone heard of Archduke Ferdinand?

Lore, I agree with you about the family lineage posting. When I read that, I laughed. Just because your ancestor were important people who had a mark in history doesn't mean you will be. Beside those men probably were [i]logical[/i] people who had morecredibility to their names.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Molleta][COLOR=SeaGreen']Hopefully we don't have any rogue covert agent to do his bidding. lol Besides, does he think an assassination won't start a war? Has anyone heard of Archduke Ferdinand?[/COLOR][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Good luck assassinating Bush. I don't think people realize how tough it is. He's definitely protected, and he's only stepped up security with the whole 'war on terror' jazz. You'll certainly need much more than a rogue covert agent.

Yeah, his assassination might start a war, but your comparison to the Archduke is waaaaay out of proportion. There are too many variables that aren't nearly as severe today as they were 100 years ago. The war-economies in peacetime, intricate alliances, troops mobilization before actual war was declared - we don't have any of those. By the time all Europe's economies had switched to mass producing guns, ammo, and other wartime necessities, people wanted a war to get rid of the stuff.[/SIZE]

[Sandy]

Umm, Retri, I think Molleta was referring to Hugo Chavez, not George W. Bush. After all, it's [I]Chavez[/I] that the televangelist wants dead, not Bush. ;)

[Maully]

[COLOR=SeaGreen]The point I was trying to make was the the guy in the origonal story said it would be better to just assassinate the leader of Venezuela rather than start another war... Which I don't see either option happening, but I was just trying to make the point that assinations are not the end of the story. I wasn't trying to make a direct parallel, just show that killing off a world leader isn't a good way to avoid war. [/COLOR]

[Sol-Blade]

Chavez responded with: "It doesn't matter to me. I don't know who that person is," he said. "As far as his opinion of me goes, I couldn't care less."

And to be honest, I'd have to say that I didn't know who Robertson was beforehand, and I still couldn't care less.

But apparently he's said some pretty controversal stuff in the before.

[quote name='"CNN.com"']He has suggested in the past that a meteor could strike Florida because of unofficial "Gay Days" at Disney World and that feminism caused women to kill their children, practice witchcraft and become lesbians.[/quote]

But still, although he never came out and said it, to own a show dedicated to Christianity - it would almost seem he would have said such a thing "In the name of God." But I'm not going to jump to conclusions here, all I know is "Thou shall not kill" and it is *his* show and he can say *whatever* he wants in my opinion. Yes, it was wrong, and he of all people should know better than to say such a thing.

Maybe he was speaking in response to the statement that the US would "bite the dust" if they were to invade Venezuela.

[quote="CNN.com]CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) -- Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez told thousands of visiting students that if U.S. forces were to invade the South American country, they would be soundly defeated.

The U.S. government has strongly denied Chavez's claims that it is considering military action against Cuba's closest ally in the Americas.

But Chavez said late Monday that the U.S. government, which "won't stop caressing the idea of invading Cuba or invading Venezuela," should be warned of the consequences.

"If someday they get the crazy idea of coming to invade us, we'll make them bite the dust defending the freedom of our land," Chavez said to applause.

He spoke during the opening ceremony of a world youth festival bringing together student delegations from across the world and convened under the slogan "Against Imperialism and War."

Chavez called the United States the "most savage, cruel and murderous empire that has existed in the history of the world."

The Venezuelan leader said "socialism is the only path," and told the students the collective goal is to "save a world threatened by the voracity of U.S. imperialism."

Earlier, the students waved flags, danced in traditional dress, and held signs praising socialism, Cuban leader Fidel Castro and Ernesto "Che" Guevara.

More than 300 students from the United States shouted out their disapproval of U.S. President George W. Bush, chanting "Get out Bush!" Other students chanted: "Bush, fascist -- you're a terrorist!"

Some 15,000 youths from 144 countries traveled to Venezuela for the weeklong festival and conference, organizers said.

Chavez wore a red shirt like many of the students, and embraced delegation leaders as their groups marched past.

The ceremony was held in Venezuela's military headquarters in Caracas. Troops looked on while students passed carrying colored flags and shouting: "We will overcome!"

This year's World Festival of Students and Youth is the 16th. The first, in 1947, was held in Czechoslovakia, and during the Cold War most host countries were aligned with the Soviet bloc.

Apart from the former Soviet Union, other host countries have included Romania, Poland, Finland, Cuba, the former East Germany and North Korea.

The weeklong gathering will include musical performances, panel discussions and an "Anti-imperialist Court," which in past years has condemned the U.S. government's actions.

While tensions have grown between Chavez and Washington, the Venezuelan leader has built close ties with countries from Iran to China.

Chavez expressed his support Monday for Iran's new president, Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, saying he expects to continue strengthening relations. Chavez said like Venezuela, Iran is a country that has been "attacked" for many years by "the hand of imperialism."

Chavez, whose country remains a major supplier of oil to the United States, also is sharply critical of the U.S.-led wars in Afghanistan and Iraq.[/quote]

In conclusion, Jon Stewart put it best, "Thou shall not kill...if the oil shipments stop. If the oil shipments continue, feel free to slaughter as you see fit." ;)

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Sage]Yes, [I]Venezuela[/I'] is such an arabic-sounding name. Venezuela, Pakistan - who could tell them a part! ;D [/quote]

[color=crimson]You fail at sarcasm. No cookie for you.

Nutcase extremists pop up in religion all the time- I'm not really sure if that implies something about humans or religion, but whatever. Let's not get into that. This guy just happened to be a little too insanely vocal about his 'opinion' and people listened, laughed at him, then moved on. That must really hurt the ol' ego.

*starts humming "Another One Bites The Dust"*[/color]

[Dan L]

What has to make me laugh the most is the two things that were happening at roughly the same time.

Chavez (the non-Christian guy, it seems):
"Let's help lots of people restore their sight for free!"

Robertson (the "Christian" guy):
"Let's Kill Chavez!"

In a nutshell, of course. Reading between the lines and all that.

Personally I think he's acting very Christian. The reason behind that is that a lot of Christians are very, very messed up people. There was once a time when Christians were hated because they were just so damn persistent to preach salvation through this guy who none of the other religions believed was the son of God. And they were loved because they truly did their most to pool together and help each other out, as well as helping the poor. And they were well known for not turning anyone away- in fact one of the main cultural problems with Christianity is that people didn't approve of different classes of people being in the same room.

Whereas these days, it's all "we hate gay people- oh no, no, no.. we [i]love[/i] them, but we [i]hate[/i] what they do!" (or in the case of [url="http://www.godhatesfags.com/"]www.godhatesfags.com[/url], not even that small allowance of love is given) "we don't like this", "we won't stand for that", "you're not allowed in church cos you do this!".. And then there's "If you give God some money, he'll give you 10 times back", "If you recite some crazy little prayer we made up it means you're saved and best of all, you get to spend forever with US!!" (If you see all of the above, it's your cue to start running!).

Of course, the main problem with church is that it's inhabited by people. The other main problem is that we have a label "Christian" that we wear with pride. If you're a Christian you get all the perks- you get to be involved in stuff, if you stick with it for a few years you get to lead stuff, and if you're a 50 year old Christian maybe you get to lead a church!.. but if you lead church from a young age, and you're a 50 year old church leader, now that's anointing!!!

Don't get me wrong. I'm a Christian, and I think God is great. I even think that a lot of Christians are great- I really wouldn't have stuck with this without them. What I don't think is great is stupid theologies and the mentality that Christianity is some kind of league table where everybody's trying to make it into the Most Holy spot at the top of the league, leaving all the others trailing in their wake. Christianity is about being the body of Christ. Everyone helps each other out- if someone's a church leader, that doesn't make him the Holy One of the church, it makes him the one responsible for that church. In other words, it's probably more important that a church is well-led into good teaching (unlike "let's kill that guy!") than that they have a leader who seems to be doing pretty good by himself. Even if the guy has a 25,000 strong church, it does [i]not[/i] make him a good leader. It might just mean he has a lot of people in this God club where everyone's in on this little salvation secret thing.

Fact is, you can't tell whether someone's a good leader by whether or not they have a big church or they're on TV or whatnot- it's only when they make stupid statements like that that you can tell whether or not they are a good leader. Of course, the majority of people know that, but there seems to be a little Christian myth, that goes "hmm.. he's got a good ministry.. he must be right!!" and a lot of Christians can get ensnared by it. The bible says to weigh up everything that is said to you against everything in the scriptures.. not against the size of someone's ministry..

bleh.. I'm done with my random ranting for now :p

[Harry]

It's ok, he doesn't really believe anything he says. He just says that because his followers want to hear it.

You don't want to mess with a man that can [url=http://www.cbn.com/communitypublic/shake.asp]leg-press 2000lbs.[/url]

[Dan L]

[QUOTE=Harry]It's ok, he doesn't really believe anything he says. He just says that because his followers want to hear it.

You don't want to mess with a man that can [url="http://www.cbn.com/communitypublic/shake.asp"]leg-press 2000lbs.[/url][/QUOTE]
Apparently this guy has his own "age defying" protein-shakes, protein-pancakes and antioxidants!

I dunno, frankly he doesn't look that young to me

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]You fail at sarcasm. No cookie for you.

Nutcase extremists pop in religion all the time- I'm not really sure if that implies something about humans or religion, but whatever. Let's not get into that. This guy just happened to be a little too insanely vocal about his 'opinion' and people listened, laughed at him, then moved on. That must really hurt the ol' ego.

*starts humming "Another One Bites The Dust"*[/color][/QUOTE]

Aww, I failed? Phooey... :( [SIZE=1](It had to be because I wrote "a part" instead of "apart"...dammit!)[/SIZE]

Heh, I immediately started humming the [I]exact[/I] same song after reading Sol-Blade's post! [I]So[/I] obvious!

Seriously, you can't take this news too gravely. It's just another looney that wants to kill somebody; as long as it doesn't happen, everything's okay. ;)

[Lafleur]

[QUOTE=Sage]Aww, I failed? Phooey... :( [SIZE=1](It had to be because I wrote "a part" instead of "apart"...dammit!)[/SIZE]

Heh, I immediately started humming the [I]exact[/I] same song after reading Sol-Blade's post! [I]So[/I] obvious!

Seriously, you can't take this news too gravely. It's just another looney that wants to kill somebody; as long as it doesn't happen, everything's okay. ;)[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkRed]
That's the problem though. Somtimes you get these people who call themselves Devout who watch this crap and go *Puts on heavy southern accent* "Well hump ma dawg, these feller's the messenger of God! Yall must be right! Comon yall, get in the truck! We's goin' to Venezuala! Bring the .22!" (Which would have course been answered by 'Is that on the way to the 7-11?') and go down and try to put one in Chavez's skull. Is it unlikly that it will happem? Sure. That's the problem with this though, chances are somone will try.

And even if it doesn't, should people be allowed to make death threats on TV and keep their show? [/COLOR]