Anime So what about "half animes"?

[DY YuGiOhNut]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][FONT=Century Gothic]so, there's anime like inuyasha, gundam seed, YuYu, and all the other cool ones ^_^
but then there are shows like Avatar: The Last Airbender. Do you consider it a "Half anime"? is that even accurate? then we have Teen Titans. that show has a lot of Japanese effects. So.....it that another kind of "half anime"? what do you suggest?????[/FONT][/COLOR]


:blowup:

[Nomura]

Half anime? I thought they were called american animes... This reminds me of the one thread " Are American animes real anime?". Um, could you explain what you mean by "half anime?

[Killer7]

In the way most Americans use the word, it isn't anime. Not only is it missing many themes that are in pretty much every anime, it's animation is definitely not up to par. Supposedly some of the animation was done by Japanese artists, but that doesn't really matter, it definitely wasn't written by a non-Japanese writer.

[dposse]

I see what you're saying. Alot of people are confused about Teen Titans. Teen Titans is very anime-ish. It has many of the same properties of real anime. I honestly don't know what to think of Teen Titans.

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='Killer7']Not only is it missing many themes that are in pretty much every anime, it's animation is definitely not up to par.[/quote]

I pity the fool who thinks that Beyblade has better animation than Avatar and that Totoro isn't anime because it doesn't involve robots, long and drawn-out plots, magical girls, lots of gore and sex, and/or big-breasted babes.

However, I don't think the word "half-anime" makes sense, really. Things can be influenced by certain anime styles, but no entirely American production can be anime in any shape or form. Besides, since Astro Boy was stylisitically similar to Disney and The Powerpuff Girls was stylistically similar to Astro Boy, does that make Astro Boy "half-anime" and PPG "one-quarter-anime"? Both American shows and Japanese shows can both be good and can both suck, but that doesn't chnce their origin.

However, I think the word "half-anime" might apply to co-productions between American and Japanese companies. This would apply to stuff like Ghost in the Shell 1, The Animatrix, Milk-Chan, Lady Death, The Big O II, SD Gundam, Blood: The Last Vampire, Yu-Gi-Oh: The Movie, DICE, Technolyze, Gantz, Elfen Lied, the upcoming Fruits Basket II, IGPX, and PPGZ, and if Korean cartoons count as anime, yes, it includes Avatar.

[Dagger]

[quote name='EVA Unit 100']However, I think the word "half-anime" might apply to co-productions between American and Japanese companies.[/quote]
Mm... I disagree. I don't think you were trying to imply that American money "taints" anime, but that's sort of the impression people are inevitably going to come away with. Kino's Journey, for example, was funded in part by ADV, but other than that there's absolutely nothing to distinguish it from the rest of what I'd normally call anime. It just seems pretty arbitrary, like labeling a series 4/5 (or whatever) anime because most of the non-key frames were done in Korea.

The term (though I see no need for it) does apply slightly better to stuff like The Animatrix, at least parts of which are very obviously a fusion of Eastern and Western stylistic conventions. Of course I hesitate to define anything by artwork or style, so that's about as far as I'd be willing to take it.

~Dagger~

[Killer7]

[quote]I pity the fool who thinks that Beyblade has better animation than Avatar and that Totoro isn't anime because it doesn't involve robots, long and drawn-out plots, magical girls, lots of gore and sex, and/or big-breasted babes.[/quote]

Their is always exceptions, as with pretty much everything, but can you name ten good animes that have worse animation then Avatar? Also by themes I meant underlying Japanese culture not anime cliches.

[DarcOverlord]

i Guess your right but i think the the reason Teen titans and avatar arent half animes is because animes come from Japan so i dont think either of the 2 could be considered half animes

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='Killer7']Their is always exceptions, as with pretty much everything, but can you name ten good animes that have worse animation then Avatar?[/quote]

OK.

-Every single Gundam series (I'm counting them as one show, though)
-Rouroni Kenshin
-Naruto
-Trigun
-Outlaw Star
-Faftner
-Neon Genesis Evangelion
-Lupin III
-Yuyu Hakusho
-Fruits Basket

Keep in mind that some of these shows have good animation, but they are worse looking than Avatar.

[AnimeFront]

A very good "half anime" would be MEgas XLR. That show has guest stars from classic animes which makes it a cool show in my opinion.

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='AnimeFront']A very good "half anime" would be MEgas XLR. That show has guest stars from classic animes which makes it a cool show in my opinion.[/quote]

The only way that show is remotely "anime" (anime influenced doesn't equal "anime") is that Madhouse did some of the animation and storyboarding on the pilot.

However, it was an awesome show. You can't go wrong with Bruce Campbell's head, a G-Force/Power Rangers/Voltron hybrid, and an Urutsukidoji parody in the context of a kiddy show.

[kenshinsbabe]

[QUOTE]Originally Posted by [B]EVA Unit 100[/B]

Keep in mind that some of these shows have good animation, but they are worse looking than Avatar.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]I would like you to clarify this for me. Do you mean that, even though the animation is better, it looked...worse? Confusing.

As for my input on the subject, I think as long as the "half animes" have decent animation and a good storyline with a good range of characters, it's worth a look. It doesn't much matter to me where it comes from.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='kenshinsbabe][SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]I would like you to clarify this for me. Do you mean that, even though the animation is better, it looked...worse? Confusing.[/FONT'][/SIZE][/quote]

No. I'm saying that Killer 7 was probably expecting 4-5 series that looked like crap, but I listed 10 series of varying animation quality. Some of the shows that I listed have good animation, but Avatar's animation is even better than that.

[Killer7]

I don't know what you are talking about, every aspect of the anime you metioned were better then Avatar ( I will give you Lupin). Better character design, smoother movement transtion, and better at showing emotion are qualities pretty much every anime on your list posess. I have seen alot of hics in shows like Teen Titans and Avatar just from seeing around 2 episodes.

[Guest babydensity]

Well i think kenshisbabe is right as long as the "half animes" have decent animation and a good storyline with a good range of characters, it's worth a look. sincerely i most say that i like alot Avatar and Teen Titans :animesmil

[Dagger]

[quote name='Killer7']Better character design, smoother movement transtion, and better at showing emotion are qualities pretty much every anime on your list posess. I have seen alot of hics in shows like Teen Titans and Avatar just from seeing around 2 episodes.[/quote]
I have to contest this. It's simply the objective truth that most American animation is much, much smoother than virtually all anime series (movies are more even). One of the qualities that people used to cite when describing anime is actually its distinctive jerkiness--although personally that irks me a bit, as it's not something that really applies across the board, and it sounds more negative than it really is.

Characters designs and being better at showing emotion are another thing entirely (especially given the wide range of both expressiveness and art style present in anime). But American animation--whether it reflects some of the stylistic conventions of anime or not--wins the smoothness category, hands down. Is some of this due to simpler character designs & less money spent on backgrounds? Probably. But that doesn't change the fact.

~Dagger~

[EVA Unit 100]

[quote name='Killer7']I don't know what you are talking about, every aspect of the anime you metioned were better then Avatar ( I will give you Lupin). Better character design, smoother movement transtion, and better at showing emotion are qualities pretty much every anime on your list posess. I have seen alot of hics in shows like Teen Titans and Avatar just from seeing around 2 episodes.[/quote]

Gundam series do have cool designs but I honestly don't know how you got the idea they had quality movement. Half the time the characters don't even walk across the screen, they SLIDE. With SEED, there was some better movement in the battle scenes but since those are flashbacked to way too much while the rest of the show is typical Gundam standard it still comes off as rather lower-grade and cheap.

Kenshin's designs are generic and the fight choreography is rather bland in the first season. The second season picked things up a bit fight-wise but since the redesigns in the 3rd season were downright butt-ugly it all evens out to a show with worse animation quality than Avatar. If anything, Kenshin would be on the same level animation-wise as Teen Titans: usually average but with a few amazing scenes/episodes showing showing how far the quality of animation can go.

Naruto's coloring I find a bit too bright and hard on the eyes with out much mood going for it. The movement is mostly smooth but if you actually look at what's moving, the characters seem more like really stiff dolls than humans. Not something you want human characters in a cartoon to look like.

I honestly don't know how you can think Trigun has good movement. I'm not just talking about hics, I'm talking about near-freeze frames in what should be frentic action scenes! If not for the good design work, it honestly wouldn't be any better from a visual standpoint than, say, Yu-Gi-Oh. And if you think Yu-Gi-Oh has good movement, you are seriously whacked in the head. Add in the ugly backgrounds, and I don't know how you could say Trigun has good animation without either a bias towards Japanese shows over American shows (which is rediculous) or a refusal to admit anything with poor animation quality could be done by Madhouse (more understandable, seeing as pretty much everything else Madhouse has done looks awesome, but you still have to admit that Trigun isn't up to their standard of quality).

I haven't seen much of Outlaw Star, but what I remember of it looked pretty cheap. Perhaps a better replacement for it on the list would be .HACK//sign. As well-designed as Bee Train's artwork is, they are terrible when it comes to movement. In fact, we could pretty much include Noir, Madlax, and pretty much everything else done by Bee Train seeing as they are of the same low animation quality.

Fafter has acceptable animation but the fact they reuse most of the character designs from Gundam SEED and other shows bugs me a bit. Good, but not nearly as visually inventive as Avatar and TT's best moments.

Neon Genesis Evangelion is probably the one show on my list you can make a really strong arguement for, but everywhere the show succeeds greatly in terms of animation it also fails equally great. At times it's theatrical-grade stuff, but at other times it's essentially "Crappy Animation For Dummies". Some cheats such as the long, awkward pause on the elevator with Rei and Asuka could be considered useful for storytelling purposes, but even in the early episodes there was constant rehashing of animation. If they had to do it, they could have at least done it in ways that the audience couldn't tell, but they actually seemed to want to make the recycled footage be ballantly obvious. And don't get me started on the last 2 episodes...

Yuyu Hakusho's animation quality is actually extremely good if you consider various production factors but the designs are rather ugly. When even the show's bishonen and bishojo look rather sloppily drawn, it puts the show at most on the same level of Avatar. That's still very good, though, and I'm actually sorry for putting it on the list. In it's place, put Chromartie High School (I could tollerate the crappy animation as part of the joke if they made the whole show done that way, but SOMEONE at Production I.G. just HAD to put in some high-budget CGI graphics to ruin all sense of style and honesty).

Fruits' Basket, similarly to Naruto, is the type of show that works better from an artistic perspective as a manga rather than an anime. It suffers from some of the same problems that Naruto's animation does. The colors get a bit grating, and outside of the SD moments the characters feel robotic in terms of movement.

As for why I like Avatar's animation, I can give you multiple reasons: the background art is beautifully painted, the lighting and coloring conveys the emotion of the scene very well, the whole visual design of the show creates a strong sense of culture and geography, the characters have realistic anatomy and movement, the characters can be highly expressive witohut resorting to stereotypical SD, there is real lip-synch, action scenes are often exciting and beautifully-choreographed, the character designs aren't that interesting but they fit the characters, and the movement is more fluid than the majority of animes out there. You said that you judged the show's animation quality after the first two episodes, but there is a reason why the first 2 episodes weren't up to par: a pilot episode had been made on the regular budget of the show, but it ran too short and they had to make huge changes to the pilot before airtime to streach it out with hardly any money. The result was that the first 2 episodes didn't look as good as the rest of the series due to the rush job they were on, but it actually looks better than other rush jobs (i.e. the last 2 episodes of EVA). The show has actually improved it's animation quality over time, similar to YYH.

[Dagger]

[quote name='EVA Unit 100']Fafter has acceptable animation but the fact they reuse most of the character designs from Gundam SEED and other shows bugs me a bit. Good, but not nearly as visually inventive as Avatar and TT's best moments.[/quote]
Yeah, but that's Hisashi Hirai's fault, not Xebec's. :p

When Fafner first came out, a lot of people said stuff like, "The only advantage it has over Eva & Rah is its animation." I found (and still find) that incredibly funny, because I think both Evangelion and RahXephon look sooo much better despite being older series (maybe because Hirai's designs have always irked me)--and I'm a big fan of Fafner.

It's not a bad-looking show, though, except for the tiny character art inconsistencies from episode to episode... those drive me [i]crazy[/i]. I guess it's a hallmark of how much I like it that I can stand to watch it again, despite being able to identify each episode's director after a few seconds of footage. :animesigh

As for Bee Train: I have some bones to pick with them, but in terms of smoothness of movement they're actually quite good. In some of their series there isn't actually that much movement going on, haha (too many eye pans & etc.), but when the characters do move it's usually very slick looking. This tendency seems to have become pronounced over time, because it's not apparent in Noir or what I recall of .hack//SIGN, but you can see it pretty clearly in stuff like Madlax, Avenger and even Meine Liebe.

(The latter is an especially good example--half the show is just bishounen posing, but when the characters do walk around it's very fluid, even if it's only for short bursts between prolonged conversations.)

~Dagger~

[kenshinsbabe]

[SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]I apologize in advance if this sounds like a flame. It's not meant to be.

Gundam (especially Gundam Wing), Kenshin, Naruto, Trigun, and Yu Yu Hakusho all have their flaws, but usually what you described that was bad was one of the best parts of the show.

Take Trigun for example. You said that it didn't have good movement. How do you suppose they got all those gunfights to look fluid? Also, in many scenes, someone is running. I saw no problem with those.

Why do you keep comparing all these things with Teen Titans and Avatar? Those shows are both pretty good. Pretty good meaning that it's good to watch if you're sorta bored and looking for a laugh. But anyway, they've got good animation (widely speaking), some relatively good storylines which makes them a bit easier to watch, and a nice range of characters.[/FONT][/SIZE]

[EVA Unit 100]

[QUOTE=kenshinsbabe][SIZE=2][FONT=Georgia]I apologize in advance if this sounds like a flame. It's not meant to be.

Gundam (especially Gundam Wing), Kenshin, Naruto, Trigun, and Yu Yu Hakusho all have their flaws, but usually what you described that was bad was one of the best parts of the show.

Take Trigun for example. You said that it didn't have good movement. How do you suppose they got all those gunfights to look fluid? Also, in many scenes, someone is running. I saw no problem with those.

Why do you keep comparing all these things with Teen Titans and Avatar? Those shows are both pretty good. Pretty good meaning that it's good to watch if you're sorta bored and looking for a laugh. But anyway, they've got good animation (widely speaking), some relatively good storylines which makes them a bit easier to watch, and a nice range of characters.[/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Don't worry. It doesn't sound like a flame at all.

However, I don't understand why you think the flaws I pointed out were the best parts of the shows? That doesn't really make much sense to me.

If you want to see some well-animated gunfights, I highly recommend watching Cowboy Bebop. That show pretty much defines quality animation as far as I'm concerned.

The reason I'm comparing those shows to TT and Avatar was because Killer asked me to make a list of 10 shows that had worse animation (not worse stories, as Avatar's storyline is somewhat weak and most of the shows I listed have great stories) than Avatar and I did so. TT just came into this due to the fact it has to come into any thread of this nature.

[Guest ctrlaltdelete]

I agree...Cowboy Bepop is the greatest anime I've seen.....it's more like reality.....hm....or maybe the movie's like that...anyone seen the movie?

[Killer7]

OK ya got me, I honestly don't know what I meant when I said smoother movement transition ( I had just finished watching Adevnt Children, so that might be why). You also have to think that many animes have many different styles of art. A good example would be Trigun. In episode 2 thier is a scene where he dodges bullets and his body basically just appears in a different place (DBZ is also another example of this). But then you could get to episode 24 [spoiler] and the seen where Vash is forced to save the citizens Legato is controlling from the guy with the saxophone ( I forget his name). The horns effect on Vash is very strongly shown, clothes moving and his body showing the damage. [/spoiler] This style is apposed to the the more constant American style, which will obviously confuse you at times.