High School clubs.. Should they be strictly regulated?

[Horendithas]

Recently a Gay ? Straight Alliance club was approved for one of the high school?s here in Utah. As a result, it was immediately announced in the paper & featured on the news and the Provo City School District is considering a policy that would regulate school clubs. As the article says:

[COLOR=Indigo] [FONT=Verdana]"It would require anyone who wants to form any sort of club to apply to the district. Parental consent would be required for non-curricular clubs, and the policy would disallow any club that is "deemed vulgar and/or lewd and therefore is inconsistent with the fundamental values of public education" or that "could subject students to harassment or persecution." A club application could be denied to "maintain boundaries of social appropriate behavior."

"This isn't about a gay club," he said. "This is about a policy that both honors speech rights and also protects school from disruptive behavior."[/FONT] [/COLOR]

For the full article go here? [URL=http://www.harktheherald.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=66154]Article [/URL]

Personally I find the whole thing ridiculous. First of all many of the colleges around here already have a Gay ? Straight Alliance club, so banning one that the high school students want to form is pointless. I also find it ridiculous as I feel it is the state is attempting to force their religious views on everyone. If you aren?t familiar with Utah, well it is estimated that about 70% of the population belongs to the Mormon Church.

I would believe their statement that it?s not about a ?gay? club if it weren?t for the fact that hundreds of clubs have been formed over the years and yet not one of them was disputed or even mentioned in the newspapers.

Anyway, basically what I am getting at is what do all of you think? Not about whether or not Utah should allow the club, but whether or not a policy requiring students to apply to the school district and get parental permission to form a club is a good idea or not. If yes, why do you think it's a good idea and if no, why do you think it shouldn't be required.

Personally I think it?s a bad idea. I think undercuts the very purpose of having clubs. If a parent doesn?t want their teenager in a club it should be a decision they make just for their own kid and not for everyone else?s kids as well. Being gay isn?t a crime or illegal and I feel that such a rule would end up discriminating against more than just gay people. To give an example, I?ve run into parents who think any club that isn?t sports shouldn?t be allowed at the schools. If they had their way, art, chess and science clubs would be eliminated. But right now the current system doesn?t let them make that decision. It?s the students who make that choice. And I think that the choice should remain with the students.

[COLOR=Indigo]EDIT: I am sorry if my initial post was not clear enough. There already are basic supervision rules regarding clubs. The students who wish to form a club are required to apply to the school for it and The Equal Access Act clearly states that School officials have the right to monitor meetings and the right to set rules. For example they can limit meeting times and locations.

The problem here is that the School district wants to make it where they have to apply to the district and not just the school where the club is going to be. The Provo School district is over all schools and not just the one High School. The other problem is they want to make it where you are required to also get parental permission to form the club and that is a direct violation of The Equal Access Act as it states that persons from the community may not ?direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups.?

The system is already in place for the school to monitor the clubs and the students are required to apply to just the school directly. Which is what they did. Sorry if I caused any confusion over this matter. [/COLOR]

[SunfallE]

Unfortunately I know all about this as my father lives in Provo Utah. :animesigh It really is sickening to see such intolerance towards anything different. I won?t even get started on that, as it?s a subject that really annoys me. :animeangr

As for High School clubs being strictly regulated, I don?t think they should be. It?s really something the students should decide for themselves. My father once told me that at one point you have to let your kids make their own decisions and that includes both the good and bad ones. So basically, even though he doesn?t approve of such a club he told me that it really wasn?t his decision to begin with. And I agree with that view completely, I really don?t see a problem with the club being formed. I don?t disapprove of it and like my Dad said, even if I did, it?s still not my choice. That?s about as stupid as me expecting people to quit being members of their religion just because I don?t approve of their religion.

I?m just glad that there are Federal laws to keep states from getting out of control.

[noblebebop22]

I dont approve of violence BUT the formation of this "alliance" will surely bring unrest and intolerance to its members and the school atmosphere. It has happened in the past with different matters. But the fact remains. If it is a controversial topic behind the creation of the club. Then there will always be controversy and, therefore unrest. However the High school has to see this. And yes i believe that there should be a council regulating the clubs.

[Aaryanna]

I do not think there should be a council for regulating the clubs. For one thing it would be a violation of The Federal Equal Access Act. This law was promoted by Christian groups to allow students to organize religious clubs in public secondary schools.

However the Act requires most schools to permit clubs of all religions, and those that are not religious. The school district can opt out of the Act by not allowing any non-curriculum clubs. It applies primarily to schools that receive Federal financial assistance. So the only schools that can legally say no are the ones that are privately funded. If you want more details then here is a link with the specifics of this Act. [URL=http://www.religioustolerance.org/equ_acce.htm][B][COLOR=DarkOrange]The Federal Equal Access Act[/COLOR][/B][/URL]

The only way a club can be denied is if later the people who belong to the club are being disruptive. Not based on people?s perception that it will be disruptive. Or on the miss conduct of those who are not students or a member of the club. Otherwise it would be child?s play to cause problems and sabotage a students club to have it banned.

This Act was passed in the Senate on August 11, 1984, so it?s not a new thing. I think it would be a big mistake for the School district of Provo Utah to attempt to bypass this law. It?s there for a reason. It not only protects the rights of those who want a Gay-Straight Alliance club, but all the other religious and non-religious clubs as well.

By removing or attempting to get around this law you would have endless fights and arguments over who should be allowed to have a club, as people will object to more than just a club for Gay-Straight Alliance. As indifference pointed out, this club already exists in the colleges around here and they have not been disruptive. What has been disruptive are the people who are ignorant, intolerant and prejudiced against anyone who is different. It?s the very reason why the law is so important as it protects people?s right to think differently and worship differently. Being gay is not illegal nor should it be.

And indifference is correct about the fact that quite a few clubs have been formed in the schools here and they didn?t make the news. So it's really dishonest for them to claim it's not because it's a club for gay people. I?m sorry to say it as I am a Utahan, but there are quite a few homophobic people here and they are even willing to break the law to discriminate against people who are gay. I actually think the whole thing is kind of sad, as it really shouldn?t be an issue in the first place.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Well while I'm not going to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to disagree with the trend of opinion here on the subject of having a school group apply for permission from the school itself before being formed. I say this simply because I think schools should have some say in what kind of groups are formed within their walls. I'm not saying that when someone goes to form a group they're interrogated as to it's purpose and intentions but some oversight is generally a good thing.

I'm my old high school, we had no such student groups that weren't formed without the permission of the principle and without a teacher participating as what I would dub liaison to the staff. In the vast majority of the cases these groups, such as Debating were lead by a teacher and provided valuable aid from the staff because it was a student/teacher endeavour. I know groups like the GSA mightn't benefit in the same way, but I still feel that some level of oversight would be beneficial. [/SIZE]

[visualkei]

I agree with Gavin that there should be a general overseeing by the school if there's going to be a club forming within it. In my old high school there was usually a teacher supervising a club, and I think it keeps the club on track, so that people aren't there just to socialize, and things wouldn't get out of hand. As long as there's an adult doing some guidance, I think it's a good thing.

I don't like the idea of getting parental consent to join a club-- especially a school club. Like SunfallE and his dad says, parents should let kids make decisions for themselves sometimes, plus if it's a club under school premises, it usually isn't harmful.

A gay-straight alliance club seems like a good idea, because it offers a kind of sanctuary for certain students to discuss these issues and find commonality. Although, there's something about the name, "Gay-Straight Alliance," that seems like it's a... defensive name. Anywayz, yeah, a club like this is controversial, but I think it's harmless if people would just give it some peace.

[Horendithas]

[QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Well while I'm not going to play Devil's Advocate, I am going to disagree with the trend of opinion here on the subject of having a school group apply for permission from the school itself before being formed. I say this simply because I think schools should have some say in what kind of groups are formed within their walls. I'm not saying that when someone goes to form a group they're interrogated as to it's purpose and intentions but some oversight is generally a good thing.

I'm my old high school, we had no such student groups that weren't formed without the permission of the principle and without a teacher participating as what I would dub liaison to the staff. In the vast majority of the cases these groups, such as Debating were lead by a teacher and provided valuable aid from the staff because it was a student/teacher endeavour. I know groups like the GSA mightn't benefit in the same way, but I still feel that some level of oversight would be beneficial. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I am sorry if my initial post was not clear enough. There already are basic supervision rules regarding clubs. The students who wish to form a club are required to apply to the school for it and The Equal Access Act clearly states that School officials have the right to monitor meetings and the right to set rules. For example they can limit meeting times and locations.

The problem here is that the School district wants to make it where they have to apply to the district and not just the school where the club is going to be. The Provo School district is over all schools and not just the one High School. The other problem is they want to make it where you are required to also get parental permission to form the club and that is a direct violation of The Equal Access Act as it states that persons from the community may not ?direct, conduct, control, or regularly attend activities of student groups.?

The system is already in place for the school to monitor the clubs and the students are required to apply to just the school directly. Which is what they did. Anyway, I?ll add this to my initial post as I think I didn?t explain it properly. Sorry about that.

[Gavin]

[quote name='indifference']The system is already in place for the school to monitor the clubs and the students are required to apply to just the school directly. Which is what they did. Anyway, I?ll add this to my initial post as I think I didn?t explain it properly. Sorry about that.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]No need to apologise, it would appear to have been my mistake in the first place. Reading over the thread again I can't help but agree that this seems to be an attempt to prevent the formation of a GSA group, though if we look at this on a broader scale it also appears to be an attempt to prevent the creation of any group contrary to that which is comfortable.

I myself know very little about the Gay-Straight Alliance, other than the small pieces of information I have gleamed from other threads, but if the formation of this group is going to cause this much trouble is it really a good idea to try and form it ? I'm not saying that it shouldn't be formed, but if it's going to cause trouble or people aren't happy with it being formed then I just don't think it's a good idea to stir up trouble. [/SIZE]

[Horendithas]

[QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]No need to apologise, it would appear to have been my mistake in the first place. Reading over the thread again I can't help but agree that this seems to be an attempt to prevent the formation of a GSA group, though if we look at this on a broader scale it also appears to be an attempt to prevent the creation of any group contrary to that which is comfortable.

I myself know very little about the Gay-Straight Alliance, other than the small pieces of information I have gleamed from other threads, but if the formation of this group is going to cause this much trouble is it really a good idea to try and form it ? I'm not saying that it shouldn't be formed, but if it's going to cause trouble or people aren't happy with it being formed then I just don't think it's a good idea to stir up trouble. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Indigo]Personally I think it should be formed, and fortunately Provo High School has approved the club. Unfortunately, the Provo High School district has already drafted up a new policy that would require parental permission for another one to be formed at a different High School. I say unfortunately because unless other schools are willing to ban all clubs at their school, requiring parental approval violates The Federal Equal Access Act and the district is leaving themselves open to unnecessary lawsuits. For example here?s what happened when they tried to stop the clubs in the state capitol of Utah: [/COLOR]

1996 - Utah: The Salt Lake City Board of Education determined that they had only one method of legally eradicating a student gay/lesbian support club at East High School. That was to eliminate all 46 student-led extracurricular clubs?."However, after the Salt Lake board continued to allow certain non-curricular clubs to meet, the American Civil Liberties Union and two other groups filed suit on behalf of the students in 1998....After two years of litigation, the Salt Lake school board agreed to change its policy and allow the Gay-Straight Alliance. The school board reportedly spent more than a quarter-million dollars in attorneys? fees in the case. There is now a Gay-Straight Alliance at every public high school in Salt Lake, according to reports."

[COLOR=Indigo]I?d hate to see even more money wasted on attempts to ban these clubs. It?s not something that is going to go away, though I am sure that there are plenty of people who wish it would. It is estimated that there is a Gay-Straight Alliance club in 1 out of every 10 High Schools in the USA.

I guess it?s the very principal of one group expecting the right to have a club while denying others the same right that really bothers me the most. Especially since The Federal Equal Access Act has also contributed to religious clubs as well. In 1980 there was only about 100 religious clubs in the USA. After the Act was made a law in 1984, well by 1995 the number had risen to around 15,000 clubs and continues to grow. There have been cases where the same thing protected those clubs as well, for example:[/COLOR]

2000-NOV: Louisiana: In spite of numerous applications of the Equal Access law over its 17 years existence, students still must occasionally fight for their rights. Dominique Begnaud of Lake Charles, LA, tried to organize a Bible Club and Fellowship of Christian Athletes Club in the Cecilia High School. Many secular student-led and initiated clubs were already active at the school. The school district refused, citing the principle of "separation of church and state," which they interpreted as prohibiting religious clubs on the high-school campus. With the help of Liberty Counsel, a Fundamentalist Christian legal defense group, the school board quickly agreed to settle the case. Mathew D. Staver, president and general counsel of Liberty Counsel said: "It is hard to understand why schools cannot get the message of equal access. The Equal Access law has been in existence since 1984 and its message is crystal clear ? equal access means equal treatment. If school administrators can?t understand the simple message of equal access, you wonder how they can teach children anything....When a school prohibits a club solely because of its religious content, the school violates the First Amendment provision that it pretends to uphold."

[COLOR=Indigo]What?s truly ironic about this whole mess is that The Federal Equal Access Act was sponsored by Utah?s own Sen. Orrin G. Hatch to protect religious clubs. Hatch originally wrote the law to protect Bible clubs on campus but it opened the door for gay clubs and other non-religious groups. So Utah is essentially having a cow over a law they themselves wanted to be passed to protect their right to have a religious club at schools.

I know it?s going to cause trouble, but I think it?s an issue that people need to stop trying to pretend doesn?t exist. [/COLOR]