How many does it take

[Starwind]

Were nearing the new year and now we stand in reflection of the year passed. We look back and see our triumphs and our foleys, our vitories and defeats. To this I ask, how many does it take to change the way of the world. Some believe that only one voice can force a new era, but is that still prevelant in the society of today.

We have our information super highways now, is it really possible to preach and effective message on ones own. If it is, then who has taken the world to where it is and why can't they better it, or do they simply not care. But if it takes more then one, I suggest it starts with those of us here.

We are the new generation here and we need to think of how we will forge the world before us. this world will belong to us in only a few years and then what will we do with it. Will we look upon it and simply let it run the course paved by our parents and forefathers or will we take a stand and forge our own paths in this world. Will we take the easy way or the hard way. Will we do right or wrong? So many questions and no definite answers.

I just wish to know if any one here has the foresight to see where our world is going and to see if they want to change it. I think in the end, word are meaningless, and the future will be decided with actions. I don't think you can shape the world with a voice, a voice without a body is just and echo in the wind. Where do the rest of you stand on this.

Can we really change the world with a voice? If so how many? And if not, what will bring the world to it's next great plateau? We stand on the verge of the future. Will we simple walk in the foot steps or will we walk beyond them, to the next great thing.

[Corey]

[size=1]You sound like Hitler used to.[/size]

[ForgottenRaider]

Enter key dude, enter key! Use it...

Anyway you make a huge assumption in your lead up and that is that the world is in fact fair.
This is a huge mistake to make and, not that I want to crush your spirit or anything, tends to stop any major leaps forward in society - or it at least slows them down a lot.
Another assumption is that this generation will have any real control some time soon; don't worry life has already thought of a way around that. Those that control the world and its direction now have no real wish for it to change and unfortunately (or fortunately for them because else they would die) they wont give up this power to idealists or new people meaning that by the time any from our generation get this might they will be already bitter and hate change as much as those who came before them.

A famous person who I couldn't be bothered googling for once said "Everything has been thought before" and even more profoundly an Australian band Something for Kate (far more recently) sang "You're not the first to think that everything has been thought before." So there you have it; countless generations have all thought like you and very few have made anything of it...And those that did (as badly pointed out by Corey) tended to be Hitler, Stalin, Marx, Gates, Bonaparte, Ra and the like. So by all means be the one that changes everything for the better - just make sure nine out of ten non-brainwashed peasants agree that you're not insane before you do.

I, on the other hand, plan to be some one who uses the current system to do good. :)

[Random]

OOC: It's funny, because me and my best friend had this exact same conversation not even two hours ago!

Starwind, as someone who considers himself to be a friend, using the term loosly at best, I'm going to be as blunt and honest with you as I can.

First off, I think it's great that you want to change the world for the better, but, realistically, how many people who've had the same ideas have succeded? The ones who have have either died, or just gotten trampled by some other faction wanting what morals and power they think is better. That being said, this world wouldn't be the way it is if it wasn't for people like you. I'm not saying that you're wierd, because I have the same mentality and opinions on this topic as you seem to have.

I would love if we could change the world into the "perfect" world, but the inevitible question comes into mind: What's perfect? What's the "right" way for the world to be? Those answers are different for every person in this crazy world. Sure, there are alot of people that have the same views and opinions, but the sad, yet true, fact is that the majority rules. If you don't agree with the majority, you're in the minority, and then that spells bad news for you. The only way to beat this system is to band with others to have a greater force, or to simply change yourself and accept the ones that are ruling. It's the basic concept that most governments revolve around, and, although it has it's flaws, some minor and others really crippling, it's seeming to work for most of them. Ya, a world united for one cause, working for the bettering of itself would be great, but considering the way the world is now, it'll never happen. At least not if it follows the same paths that it's been following during the past 100 years or so.

One other major factor that alot of people miss is that it's not just politics and veiws on how countries should be run. Alot of why the world is the way it is is because of Religion. I'm not bashing religion, because I myself am an extreamly spiritual person, and as such rely on religion. But the fact remains, religion and people's views are what make the world go round.

Another thing is that alot of people are scared of change. Not all, but most. Most people would rather just have a "who cares?" attitued, and leave things the way they are. It's only when a large band of people come together to change things that something like what you want to do will happen, and even then it's not for sure. Look at the people who have tried, like Hitlar. He wanted a world that was united, but he also wanted to conquer. That was his downfall. To conquer and to unite are totally different things, so he contradicted himself, and was acting for his own personal gain, not for the bettering of the whole. The same could be said for many a faction, and most of them are doing it only for their own personal gain. Granted, there's always some greedy driving force, however small or big, in anything someone does, but some things are worse than others, so, my question is: Is the world that could be, as in the world that we could create by changing the one we have, better or worse than the one that we live in today?

To sum up, I think it's very noble of you to want to change the world, and even more courageous of you to speak up, but the idea that we can change the world is a little nieve. A few cannot overthrough many a generation's work, and even if we could, it would take years, if not decades, to undo. So, just follow what you belive, and if it conflicts with what's already there, then so be it.

-Random

[sakurasuka]

[quote name='Starwind']To this I ask, how many does it take to change the way of the world.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]I say two. Me and you, babe, we'll rule the world together =]

But seriously, we're gonna need recources. [i]Major[/i] recources.[/SIZE]

[WindFox17]

All we need to do is unifi the U.S armed forces has anbout 2mill people and there are 3.6 bill poeple on the earth. So power in numbers.We could easliy take over if we all work together. Weapons, there are those people out there like me that are armed to the teeth so plenty of weps covered, resourseces will be taken when we claim parts of the land that have resources, so that can keep the war machine going.

[Starwind]

I'm not trying to say that the world can or will change. I'm asking how would we be able to do it. In a time where we can be bombarded with information faster then we cam even register it, can we really dedicate ourselves to a single thought. Is it even possible, or are people today to shallow and short sighted to notice.

The fact that this power now will fall is only inevitable, nothing can change that fact. Some seem to think it will take years, but in truth there world is already crumbling. I see our generation having our chance in about four to five years, but I digress.

I don't see either government or religion evil. I see organization as evil. Religion preaches peace and civility to the world, and that's a great message to be sent. But organized religion has been used as an excuse for war and murder for thousands of years.

A government organized, giving such great power to only one or a handful of people is dangerous and reckless to say the least. One can't allow there lives to lead by someone else's idealogy. You have to find what you believe in.

If you believe in religion that's fine. But take the word of a man who I promise is no greater or smater or more well indowed then you that he knows the will of the creator. If you believe in the government that's fine, but don't believe that they who lead it are infallable. They are human as any one of us are and they are just as prone to mistakes.

But if you think it could be better. If some how we could take what we have and evelope it to something more magnificent, then it is our responsiblity to try and make it better. Someone earlier mentioned that those who tried to change the world were either killed but trampled, but think of what you said there. You know them because even if they didn't change the world, they left enough of a dent for us to recognize the fact that they were there.

True, many have died for this cause, but in there dieing they did in fact change the world. Martin Luther King Jr., Mahatma Ghandi, Abraham Lincoln, Robert Kennedy, All of these men changed the world, even if in the end it cost them there lives. So why can't we change the world in the same way these men did.

With this vesile before you, you are able to reach the minds of millions all over the globe. Why do you look at it with such a pesimistic veiw. Unless you believe it can be changed how is it ever suppose to. Had the great men and women of history not believed in this idea of change then we would still be a primordial world with no civility and rights. We'd still be in caves abusing other sand the lives that we have.

The world in which we live is trapped in a constand state of Heterostasis and Homostasis. Homostasis is the force to keep the world the same, and hetero is the force that drives change. If you don't give the hetero a puch we will stay locked in a constant state, never moving forward or moving backward. A man once said "It's okay if history repeats itselt as long as we continue to move up."

He saw the world as a spiral and not a circle. As long as the spiral moves up, it can cross over the same mistakes over and over again as long it we progress from the last time. We will continue to make mistakes in this life, and we'll probably be doomed to see the same ones made over and over again, but as long as we become stronger and better for it it was not a wasted experience.

We need change, so how many will it take to change the world. A lone person, or will it take hundreds, thousands, millions. How many does it take, or are voices alone not enough. Will action be the only way to go forward. If one only yses his voice, I suppose, it's no more useful then an echo in the wind. If actions speack stronger then words, then let's take action. Let's stand up and look to the world around us.

Reach out and pull others to there feet so they might stand with us and walk this long unpaved road. Every life brings with it a clean slate, with every breath we take another opportunity arises, every moment only comes once don't make it a wasted one. Take the words from your own heart and use them as your strength to move on and change, even your own world. If you don't think we can change government and politics fine, but at least change yourself. If you better yourself then you children will be better for it. Then teach them to greater things then you, so someday there might be hope for our own world where one doesn't have to watch people die for a right they may not even understand.

Right now, there are people in Iraq, the insurgence and US soilders alike, who are fighting even though they don't know what and why they are fighting. I find this to be tragic. Can't we at leat change this, or at least take the blood of those men and use it to show the leaders of these two sides why this has to stop. How many does it take?

[IceRose]

The world is messed up as it is :animesigh . It would take major forces, and around 4.8 billion people to change it. I'm up for change so if anyone wants to join in, you are more than welcome. *gets ready to start revolution*

[Stark]

Starwind, I've told you before that words like that can get you killed should this country head for Totalitarianism. You're quite the idealist, but I can see your point. The world needs a breath of fresh air, and the people in charge are not going to allow that anytime soon.

Then again, our parents probably thought the same thing.

We are not different. We are not unique in these thoughts. I recognize and acknowledge that fact. I also realize that the world will not change unless something drastic and life-altering happens.

People are raised on these ideas, and are socialized in such a manner that they don't know what else they should think. I see that, but I know I can't change it. I also realize that most of our generation just doesn't care. If I recall correctly, Nixon was genuinely afraid of the college students. You just don't see that with Bush.

What you are talking about is something revolutionary, something on par of heroic. I've spoken of these things with you as well, so you know that I'm willing to help. But, keep in mind, people with thoughts like these often get killed--Look at Bobby and Jack Kennedy, as well as Martin Luther King Jr. These people are heros, but they only have that status because they were killed.

I look at the media, and I see a mess. I know I decided on this very late in my high school career--just within the past few months--but I figure that I'll be a journalist. You just don't hear news worthy news anymore. To fight off the possibility of Totalitarianism, which is entirely possible, as well as Rome's fate, I believe that people need to know what's going on in the world.

[IceRose]

[QUOTE=Stark]
What you are talking about is something revolutionary, something on par of heroic. I've spoken of these things with you as well, so you know that I'm willing to help. But, keep in mind, people with thoughts like these often get killed--Look at Bobby and Jack Kennedy, as well as Martin Luther King Jr. These people are heros, but they only have that status because they were killed.

I look at the media, and I see a mess. I know I decided on this very late in my high school career--just within the past few months--but I figure that I'll be a journalist. You just don't hear news worthy news anymore. To fight off the possibility of Totalitarianism, which is entirely possible, as well as Rome's fate, I believe that people need to know what's going on in the world.[/QUOTE]

You are right in so many aspects Stark, but maybe...well you say you want to be a journalist right? You'll have to dig deep under to find the truth, I mean I'm up for political science and international relations so I'll try to help as much as I can in the future if all the otaku's keep in touch. What could be better than dying for your convictions as well as for the well being of the world?

[Dragon Warrior]

I'll put it plain and simple here. You cannot change the world. It's not that easy. People are not born innocent. There is always going to be someone who disagrees with someone else, therefore the world will never have complete agreement on everything. That's life. You cannot expect whoever's at war right now to go up and shake the hands of their foes. Most of mankind is too proud. I'm not saying anyone is stupid here for saying the world should change, but it's a tad ignorant all the same to believe a voice can change the way mankind is.

[Starwind]

And what I'm trying to say here it just that. If you want the world to change you have to act on it. And yes I understand that there can never be complete agreemnet between people in this world, I'm not that ignorant or short sighted.

I'm just saying that, why do people have to die for someonelses disagreements. For thousands of years, war has been old men talking and young men dieing. Is that the way it should be. I'm in the American army and for me the thought of war and dieing in it is a very real possiblity. And this is a choice I made, and I'm fine wiht it that way. But if I'm to die for this war, shouldnt I know what the point in dieing for it is.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Starwind]We need change, so how many will it take to change the world. A lone person, or will it take hundreds, thousands, millions. How many does it take, or are voices alone not enough. Will action be the only way to go forward. If one only yses his voice, I suppose, it's no more useful then an echo in the wind. If actions speack stronger then words, then let's take action. Let's stand up and look to the world around us.

Reach out and pull others to there feet so they might stand with us and walk this long unpaved road. Every life brings with it a clean slate, with every breath we take another opportunity arises, every moment only comes once don't make it a wasted one. Take the words from your own heart and use them as your strength to move on and change, even your own world. If you don't think we can change government and politics fine, but at least change yourself. If you better yourself then you children will be better for it. Then teach them to greater things then you, so someday there might be hope for our own world where one doesn't have to watch people die for a right they may not even understand.

Right now, there are people in Iraq, the insurgence and US soilders alike, who are fighting even though they don't know what and why they are fighting. I find this to be tragic. Can't we at leat change this, or at least take the blood of those men and use it to show the leaders of these two sides why this has to stop. How many does it take?[/QUOTE]
[size=1]As you previously noted, it takes but one voice to spark change in the world. Unforunately, there aren't enough voices - either that, or people just don't want to listen.

I don't agree with you that with "every life brings with it a clean slate." Such an assumption is completely blind - you're assuming that everyone starts off on a level playing field, that everyone has equal opportunity. Every life has potential - I will say that, but many start off a dollar short, so to speak. Most of the world is impovershed, living in the developing world. To say that they can do things that a typical American citizen can is foolish.

Your last paragraph sort of dips off the course of the rest of your arguement. I also think that President Bush will not stop this war just because of the casualties. He truly believes what he's doing is right, and therefore, there will be no realization of what he has done - that the war was 'unnecessary' (in your point of view, anyway).

If I may digress, one could make the arguement that the war in Iraq has made the world a better place... a tyrannical dictator has been removed from power. A man who ground humans alive, dipped them into vats of highly corrosive acid, and used electric torture. It was at the price of many many soldiers and civilian's lives, but the deed is done now, for better or for worse.
[[I love playing Devil's Advocate]][/size]

[Starwind]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']I don't agree with you that with "every life brings with it a clean slate." Such an assumption is completely blind - you're assuming that everyone starts off on a level playing field, that everyone has equal opportunity. Every life has potential - I will say that, but many start off a dollar short, so to speak. Most of the world is impovershed, living in the developing world. To say that they can do things that a typical American citizen can is foolish.[/size][/quote]

I'm not saying the world is a level playing feild. Letr's face it, there's nothing level about it. What I'm saying is, when your born you have a choice on who you can be. Many choice to be who there told to be, but at this young stage of life were in now, you can choose to change yourself. You don't have to be who your told to be.

And no, even if it's not level, these people can still bring themselves to higher levels and better places. They might have to try harder, but it can be done. I am a testimony to will. Everything in life I've done I've been told I couldn't do and reseved no support from even my parents.

In elementary school I was called a mentally retarded child with no future. I am now an honors student at my high school. I was told I could never make it in the army, they'd never let me in. I was inducted and sworn in five months ago. Just because you don't think they can do it doesn't mean they can't. I am my own testomony to will power.

Do you know what it's like to be eight years old and be told by your parents, your teachers and your friends that your retarded and have no hope for a future. I proved them worng and I keep doing it with each passing day. I believe that if you push anything enough you can make it happen. I know I sound like a blind optimist, but this is what I believe. I've exceded every thing expected of me, which was nothing by the way, and I know I'm not the only one who can do it.

Back on topic, if you look around here you'd see there are a lot of people who want to help and make it better. All they need is a voice and an image, someone has to rise to the occasion. I'm not saying I'm that person, I'm not that egotistical, but what I am saying is if we were to take what we have now and push it into the world gradually, we can make change occur. It may take years, but gradual change is better then none at all.

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Starwind]I'm not saying the world is a level playing feild. Letr's face it, there's nothing level about it. What I'm saying is, when your born you have a choice on who you can be. Many choice to be who there told to be, but at this young stage of life were in now, you can choose to change yourself. You don't have to be who your told to be.

And no, even if it's not level, these people can still bring themselves to higher levels and better places. They might have to try harder, but it can be done. I am a testimony to will. Everything in life I've done I've been told I couldn't do and reseved no support from even my parents.

In elementary school I was called a mentally retarded child with no future. I am now an honors student at my high school. I was told I could never make it in the army, they'd never let me in. I was inducted and sworn in five months ago. Just because you don't think they can do it doesn't mean they can't. I am my own testomony to will power.

Do you know what it's like to be eight years old and be told by your parents, your teachers and your friends that your retarded and have no hope for a future. I proved them worng and I keep doing it with each passing day. I believe that if you push anything enough you can make it happen. I know I sound like a blind optimist, but this is what I believe. I've exceded every thing expected of me, which was nothing by the way, and I know I'm not the only one who can do it.[/quote]
[size=1]You're right - will power can do wonders, and it's awesome that you've done what you have in the face of such lopsided odds. However, some people have even worse odds, and face predicaments that sheer will power cannot fix. The poor farmer who must join a sweatshop to support their family. That situation cannot be overcome by will power. You can join a sweatshop and feed your family, living a life of perpetual suffering, or watch your children starve to death. Of course I think you're a blind optimist for thinking that if you try your hardest, you can do anything.[/size]

[ForgottenRaider]

[quote name='Stark']To fight off the possibility of Totalitarianism, which is entirely possible, as well as Rome's fate, I believe that people need to know what's going on in the world.[/quote]
Oh...My bad. I thought America was already a Totalitarian State with all your PATRIOTness, no need for court approval to wire tap, and lovely emergency powers that the president refuses to give up. Guess I'll give it another year then, you guys should be right for that title by then, right? (*It's a joke, laugh!(tm))

I would like to clarify my first post also: I have no wish to quash idealists as I myself am one, and while the sentiment that one voice can in fact make a difference is a farce a group of like minded people can go a long way to change a region or even a large part of the world. So if you have a good idea run with it.

Also a government becomes corrupt when it stops serving the people and at this point should start losing respect. The flaw of course is that people refuse to partake in civilised and educated debate in regard to politics so governments are left unchecked at voting time.

Similarly the Church while it may have noble goals of love for every one in Gods eyes it turns a blind eye to its own faults and causes large rifts in society to meet a minority ideology.

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I mostly think it's interesting that there are always people who are telling us that the world is getting worse and going down the toilet. In fact, the opposite is always true, at least in a longterm sense.

I remember seeing a funny TV interview of a reverend during the 70's, where he was talking about the moral decay of society and how we only had another decade until the world broke out into complete and utter chaos. Funny how that worked out.

I've always thought that instead of predicting the end of the world, we should be thinking about how the world is always improving. Although it's a gradual process, so many things are getting better - education, human rights, political freedoms, etcetera. These things take time and there are deviations along the way, but basically I think the world is always moving in a positive direction.

I think there is always a desire for some kind of radical change, especially from young people. And I'm sure there are probably areas where radical change would be really beneficial. But at the same time, I don't think that a realistic view hurts - especially when you look back at history and realize how much things have changed for the better in general.

So, sure, there are terrible things out there that need fixing...but I think that will always be the case. Sometimes these things just take time.

As for the stuff about totalitarianism in America and wire taps and all of that...I don't know what to say except "get a clue". That kind of stuff is a complete insult to anyone who has [i]actually[/i] lived under a totalitarian regime. Seriously, all you need to do is both know your history and have some vague understanding of how the American political system works. I'm certainly the first to suggest that there are problems, but "totalitarian" is a kind of word that is being thrown around without any real understanding of its full weight.[/font]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[QUOTE=James][font=franklin gothic medium]I mostly think it's interesting that there are always people who are telling us that the world is getting worse and going down the toilet. In fact, the opposite is always true, at least in a longterm sense.

I remember seeing a funny TV interview of a reverend during the 70's, where he was talking about the moral decay of society and how we only had another decade until the world broke out into complete and utter chaos. Funny how that worked out.

I've always thought that instead of predicting the end of the world, we should be thinking about how the world is always improving. Although it's a gradual process, so many things are getting better - education, human rights, political freedoms, etcetera. These things take time and there are deviations along the way, but basically I think the world is always moving in a positive direction.

I think there is always a desire for some kind of radical change, especially from young people. And I'm sure there are probably areas where radical change would be really beneficial. But at the same time, I don't think that a realistic view hurts - especially when you look back at history and realize how much things have changed for the better in general.

So, sure, there are terrible things out there that need fixing...but I think that will always be the case. Sometimes these things just take time.

[/font][/QUOTE]

Damn, you took what I was going to say, fancied it up, and said it.

Anyway, I agree. I don't think there is nearly as much wrong as people say. On the TV and through the news bad things are constantly brought to your attention and no good ever seems to arrive at your door, but how often have you actually witnessed these things occur? I mean, you could read a huge article about every guy who gets killed each day and suddenly it seems like everyone is dying but there are a LOT of people in the world and most of them are fine, upstanding people who just aren't getting any attention.

Also, you cannot start a revolution because not enough people are complaing. The number of people who are fine with the state of the world and have no reason to start a revolution are immensely greater than those who are complaining, you just only really hear about the complainers. It is by this philosophy that I have decided not to care about the state of the world because I don't need to and I can't change it.

In fact it reminds me, I was playing Fire Emblem Path of Radiance this morning and my group of charachters was heading into a town in a country which had recently been overtaken by its neighboring country. The group was utterly stupified at the placidity of the town. The main charachter was talking to one of the villagers and their conversation went something like this...

MC: This town is so calm... why is that?

Villager: We know we're being invaded by Daein troops and weve heard of how they killed the nobles and took over but we really don't mind. We figure if we just go on working as usual the Daein army will have no reason to force anything on us. As long as we're still working the person in power can keep living the high life and will have no reason to act on us.

MC: But they murdered your king! Aren't you angered by that?!

Villager: To us simple townsfolk, the nobles are nothing but faceless rulers high out of reach. If they raised taxes or did something that effected us directly, yeah we'd act up, but we aren't going to go out of our way to change things/

This is how most people think, I believe.

[EVA Unit 100]

I pretty much agree with James and Tical on this one. The world has improved a lot over the course of history in the long run. However, I'd like to add that this improvement generally comes in cycles where things get a bit worse before things get better. Currently, it seems as if the world is in the "getting worse" stage. And since people are so nearsighted, I can understand why people think that civilization as we know it is going to crumble, between the situations in the Middle East, Ethiopia, Southeast Asia, New Orleans, and lots of other tragedies in recent years. However, it will get better soon. People just have to make it better like they have in years past.

[Starwind]

[quote name='James][font=franklin gothic medium']I've always thought that instead of predicting the end of the world, we should be thinking about how the world is always improving. Although it's a gradual process, so many things are getting better - education, human rights, political freedoms, etcetera. These things take time and there are deviations along the way, but basically I think the world is always moving in a positive direction.[/font][/quote]

I would like to touch on this education comment for a moment. How has education gotten better in America. Last time I checked, amongst the free nations of the world Americas educational system was ranked second from the bottom, Cyprus being at the bottom. Now this made me feel better to know we weren't the worst, but that feeling quickly faded when I realized I didn't even know Cyprus was a country.

I'll give you the fact that the word totalitarian may be unwarranted claim at this point, but do you really think this is the democracy first invisioned by the our founding fathers? Fortunatly certain clauses of the patriot act, which was the biggest slap in the face to the bill of rights in almost a hundred years, are about to expire and we can begin to return to normal.

I love the idea that our presidents idea to solve the problem on terror was to create this color coded chart to induce terror. Has anyone else noticed that the alarm seems to go up whenever his administration is in trouble or any time a democrate actually works up the balls to say anything damning and bold. This angers me because we know there are legitimate threats out there, and he's using the thing like his distraction tool.

How many of you were even aware he had not even a month ago, and no one did anything about it. Why? Because he has desensitized us to these things when there are real threats out there. One only has to look to England to know they're there and he makes us believe that theres nothing to watch out for.

In short, I realize that the world can't be changed easily, but you can start bettering yourself everyday. Going out there and helping someone else, with even a menial task. A world is crafted by the human hand, if the people who live in it are better the world itself will be come better for it. How many of you saw the movie "Pay it Forward"? Just think along those lines. Someone does something for you and in exchange help three other people and tell them to do the same and elp three people themselves and have them keep the message going with each time.

In know I'm an idealist, but for some people that's all that keeps them alive. I still have the scars where I used to cut myself. I still remember the nights of sickness that I induced with perscritption medication. I remember the all these horrible things, but to keep myself going I kept my head faced forward and never let myself look down. You talk of these people who are suffering in sweat shops, so what are you going to do for them? And don't say you can't do anything for them, because we both know that's total crap so don't even try to deny it. If anyone truly cares to help there fellow man, then you can make it happen. If you really feel sorry for them, find a way to help.

[ForgottenRaider]

At it again ey James? That extra line pointing out that it was a joke was added just for you though unfortunately as usual your keen sense of humour just ran right by. I often wondered why it is that with your need to defend the biggest super power on the planet on any little point and after awhile it just seemed that it is some thing you like to do. Your reasons are your own and I have learnt not to question them ? negative reinforcement - though please once in a while just let some thing slide?
Now in defence of myself before I made that [i]joke[/i] I researched it and while your point of comparison to other far worse (in your opinion) regimes is valid (and to be fair I didn?t consider it fully) I still feel that my point of jest is valid or at least should provoke thought and maybe action on behalf of the American people to avoid it slipping down that long slope.

My father often told me if you have to explain a joke to some one, [b]don?t[/b].

[quote name='Starwind']?do you really think this is the democracy first invisioned by the our founding fathers?[/quote]
Interestingly enough my contempt for the American version of democracy that I held when compared to that of the English or Australian systems was replace with pure respect when I spent a great deal of time researching your founding fathers. In fact it was replaced by disgust at the degradation of their work and that their words of wisdom have been lost on the people of not only America but any one trying to maintain a democracy. So much so that the quote in my signature is sitting at the top of my list of favoured great words - and I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment.

The group of people that created America were indeed smart and well thought men and I find it shocking that their works (there are a lot of them) and ideals aren?t some thing learnt in your schools. Also when they did create this system Jefferson (along with the others) predicted all of the current pitfalls and even which side of politics would cause them.
At the time they stated it was the best system that they could come up with and mused that it would only last a few hundred years before corruption and fractures would appear by which time they had hoped that similarly intelligent people had updated it or replaced it completely with some thing better. This hasn?t happened and we are (as a world) dealing with the results?DMCA any one?

[quote]Fortunatly certain clauses of the patriot act, which was the biggest slap in the face to the bill of rights in almost a hundred years, are about to expire and we can begin to return to normal.[/quote]
I believe there was overwhelming support for a six month extension to the PATRIOT act. Enjoy. :)

[quote]?idea to solve the problem on terror was to create this color coded chart to induce terror[/quote]
Unfortunately it isn?t his idea and even worse he didn?t even pull it off that well. This current fear of terrorism is just a created myth much like that of the Cold War and similar repeats through history. Sure the threats are there but there really wont be much behind them (I believe the term is paper tiger?). It is a very clever control mechanism where in you get a population to have absolute fear in some thing and they will agree with your choices if you present yourself as a strong leader. It is how tribes operate.

Do you honestly believe that you will be killed in a terrorist attack? Look at it, there is more chance that you will die living your day to day life in the next hour than being blown up. So why live in fear of it?

I love laughing at people who refuse to go to the shops because of the terror rating or that there [i]might[/i] be a threat. Seriously...

One thing that does interest me is the thought that maybe it is the idealists just hiding behind the curtains around the place that slowly some how swing things back towards the centre (from the left or right of ideologies). I?ve never really thought about how this does happen; does any one know about this specific part of this topic in regard to historical points?

[Starwind]

[QUOTE=ForgottenRaider]At it again ey James? That extra line pointing out that it was a joke was added just for you though unfortunately as usual your keen sense of humour just ran right by. I often wondered why it is that with your need to defend the biggest super power on the planet on any little point and after awhile it just seemed that it is some thing you like to do. Your reasons are your own and I have learnt not to question them ? negative reinforcement - though please once in a while just let some thing slide?
Now in defence of myself before I made that [i]joke[/i] I researched it and while your point of comparison to other far worse (in your opinion) regimes is valid (and to be fair I didn?t consider it fully) I still feel that my point of jest is valid or at least should provoke thought and maybe action on behalf of the American people to avoid it slipping down that long slope.

My father often told me if you have to explain a joke to some one, [b]don?t[/b].


Interestingly enough my contempt for the American version of democracy that I held when compared to that of the English or Australian systems was replace with pure respect when I spent a great deal of time researching your founding fathers. In fact it was replaced by disgust at the degradation of their work and that their words of wisdom have been lost on the people of not only America but any one trying to maintain a democracy. So much so that the quote in my signature is sitting at the top of my list of favoured great words - and I whole heartedly agree with the sentiment.

The group of people that created America were indeed smart and well thought men and I find it shocking that their works (there are a lot of them) and ideals aren?t some thing learnt in your schools. Also when they did create this system Jefferson (along with the others) predicted all of the current pitfalls and even which side of politics would cause them.
At the time they stated it was the best system that they could come up with and mused that it would only last a few hundred years before corruption and fractures would appear by which time they had hoped that similarly intelligent people had updated it or replaced it completely with some thing better. This hasn?t happened and we are (as a world) dealing with the results?DMCA any one?


I believe there was overwhelming support for a six month extension to the PATRIOT act. Enjoy. :)


Unfortunately it isn?t his idea and even worse he didn?t even pull it off that well. This current fear of terrorism is just a created myth much like that of the Cold War and similar repeats through history. Sure the threats are there but there really wont be much behind them (I believe the term is paper tiger?). It is a very clever control mechanism where in you get a population to have absolute fear in some thing and they will agree with your choices if you present yourself as a strong leader. It is how tribes operate.

Do you honestly believe that you will be killed in a terrorist attack? Look at it, there is more chance that you will die living your day to day life in the next hour than being blown up. So why live in fear of it?

I love laughing at people who refuse to go to the shops because of the terror rating or that there [i]might[/i] be a threat. Seriously...

One thing that does interest me is the thought that maybe it is the idealists just hiding behind the curtains around the place that slowly some how swing things back towards the centre (from the left or right of ideologies). I?ve never really thought about how this does happen; does any one know about this specific part of this topic in regard to historical points?[/QUOTE]

Actually, while the PATRIOT act, which did in fact have large supprot only a few months ago, it has fallen in this incline ever since republican majority cahirman Tom Delay has stepped down from office the act has lost quite abit of it's support and will be coming to and end in the next month.

I don't personally believe I'll die in a terrorist attack, but apparently a lot of people do. Did you know that after 9/11 gun sales in Amerca soared, as well as the sale of personal security systems, gas masks, and even trained attack dogs. Which won't protect you from plane hijacking, box cutter weilding terrorists but it sure as hell shows how scared people here are.

As far as being killed goes, I know I've got a greater risk then most of dieing in a terrorist attack since I'm in the army so my chances are higher then normal, but I still don't see it happening. Like you said, this is something they've been setting up for years. If you've ever actually seen the papers on the PATRIOT act, it's litteraly a libray of works and writings. They've had this planned for years and have waited for a time of fear like now to launch it. A time when the people of this country would blindly say yes to it.

I'm still pissed because there are legitimate threats to this country at this a time of war. We shouldn't be focusing our efforts in Iraq, we need to step up security at home before we worry about this "Fighting them ther so we don't have to fight them here" Bull crap.

The reports on 9/11 taught me this, if they are going to attack us, They're already here. The men responsible for that tragedy had been here for little more then a decade before the attack. If there going to attack, then they're already here.

We need to come home and look after the home front here. That should be our first step to bettering ourselves is by leaving the world alone and let those morons blow themselves up and protect the homefront, where they said they'd be covering us.

[2010DigitalBoy]

THe initial question in this topic was "can we change the world with a voice or actions and how many will it take" right? Well, I think that a voice can do nothing to change the world, you have to actually do something. A voice fallen on deaf ears merely speaks to itself, (Im coining that one) one must act on what they believe is right. Don't go asking others what you should do, just do what you think is right. You don;t need someone else's mandate to do it, it's all on you. If you wanna change the world, shut your mouth and get to work, quit tallking about it and do it.

[sakurasuka]

[quote name='? Nomad Tical ?']THe initial question in this topic was "can we change the world with a voice or actions and how many will it take" right? Well, I think that a voice can do nothing to change the world, you have to actually do something. A voice fallen on deaf ears merely speaks to itself, (Im coining that one) one must act on what they believe is right. Don't go asking others what you should do, just do what you think is right. You don;t need someone else's mandate to do it, it's all on you. If you wanna change the world, shut your mouth and get to work, quit tallking about it and do it.[/quote]

[SIZE=1]There you go! That's the spirit!

But yeah, I do think one person can change the world. Anyone ever hear the name Hitler? He changed the world. Maybe not in a good way, but he changed it nonetheless.

How about Einstien? The world definitely wouldn't be the same without his findings.[/SIZE]

[ForgottenRaider]

[quote name='Starwind']Actually, while the PATRIOT act, which did in fact have large supprot only a few months ago, it has fallen in this incline ever since republican majority cahirman Tom Delay has stepped down from office the act has lost quite abit of it's support and will be coming to and end in the next month.[/quote]
Did you really need to quote my whole post?

Also I just checked and what I said was accurate: [url]http://politics.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=05/12/22/1659257&tid=123&tid=219[/url]

My favourite line is "That vote came on the same day that The New York Times reported that President Bush authorized the National Security Agency to eavesdrop on U.S. residents, without warrants."

Again. Enjoy your freedom; don't spend it all at once! :)