When does life start?

[Anime Elf]

Okay, this isn't meant to be an abortion/pro-choice/pro-life thread. I was just wondering what you guys consider to be when a fetus/cells/baby/whatever name you choose beomes "alive". I don't want to have a bunch of people yelling at each other, because I feel like this question is really relevent in today's society. So, discuss and let's be civil about it.

[Baron Samedi]

[size=1]I actually doubt that there are any people with knowledge sufficient enough to do anything more than spout internet articles verbatim here at OB, so a discussion of people's opinions on the period where awareness for a foetus kicks in is kind of moot. However, I view self-awareness as a key point of being human. Until that point when they can separate themselves as a conscious entity, they are no different to an animal, mentally.

Which means that I see no problem with aborting toddlers :p

I think the actual limit that they have in place [three months?] is a fair limit though. Something to do with cogniscent functions, or outside awareness or something. Besides, if you don't 'get around to it' in three months, you deserve to be 'stuck' with the child.[/size]

[Drix D'Zanth]

Well, the basic unit of something that is ?alive? would be a cell. As organisms are a single or multicellular being capable of metabolizing and reproducing on its own, I suppose we can refer to the ?organism? as the primary designator of what we consider living or not. Some amount of cells and tissue may die of some multicellular organisms and the may be still considered alive. Also, a skin cell (or even the skin) isn?t really capable of being alive on its own. In fact, by biological definition viruses aren?t alive. They are dead little balls of protein that rely on other organisms to metabolize and procreate. Cool huh?

I suppose when we are talking about when a human becomes alive we can examine it from a few different aspects. In the sake of objectivity, I?ll give you the biological facts. While the gametes themselves are not technically living organisms, the union of a sperm and oocyte to form an embryo is the real beginning of ?life?. This is when an entirely new and (mostly) unique organism is created from two different progenitors, in the case of Humans. The embryo has entirely unique genetic material through an assorted combination (and rearrangement) of the parents? original genetic code. Being iteroparus and K-selected, ecologically, Humans are a type I (survivorship, and fecundity) population. Our offspring benefit from an extremely high survivorship rate because of the long term pregnancy and long rearing time before our children are independent of their parents. Biologically this ensures the best chance for genetic material to be passed down, at the expense of the energy needs of the parents (in fact, producing milk to raise a baby is actually a higher energy demand than the pregnancy itself!). As with all organisms, we require a source of oxygen and energy to metabolize. Because we are genetically hard wired to be dependent on our parents, an in-utero pregnancy ensures the growing organism a proper source of nutrients.

Pretty neat, yeah?

As far as when humans cross over the barrier from ?ball of cells? to humanity is a philosophical dilemma. It puzzles me really, because we are all just more complicated balls of the same types of cells that we started from *shrug*.

[Mimmsicle]

[FONT=Tahoma]If you want to draw a very fine line, I suppose you could say that life starts shortly after the egg is furtilized with the sperm. Though most believe it's when the fetus has "cogniscent functions, or outside awareness or something", as Baron so aptly put it.

As for my own, personal, opinion .... it's hard to say, since I've not given it much thought. There's also the fact that very little of the information we got in "sex aid" class ever really stuck, otherwise I might've had a more educated guess. But basically it'd be when the sperm begins to develop/grow inside the egg, since that's what life does. Develops and grows *shrugs and smiles*[/FONT]

[Billie_Forever]

Personally...I think that a abortion is wrong as it kills something that could potentially go on to become a wonderful person..then again i suppose it could be the opposit.e..i do realise that those who have abortions do not want children..but i think that they should give their children up for adoption to a couple who would actually care and love for the child....but i suppose it could be acceptable in cases such as rape...

Anyhoo...that isnt really the point of this thread..I think that life starts at the point that the egg is penetrated by the sperm..but...i do think that abortion is acceptable until the point in which the brain and heart has developed (much like the law here in the UK, though im not sure about other countries)..anyhow..thats my view...

[Satoru]

[COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1]Here's a short sceince lesson kids.
And egg, fertilized by a sperm = fertilized egg.
soona after this come to be a ball of cells. Note that these aresimple generic cells.
later the cells become specilized, skin cells, eye cells, muscle cells etc. <- That's when it is human.
The generic cells are specialized and actually doing something, developing muscle tissue for example.
This is when, I belive, you're human. Although I my opinion is, your acual life doesn't begin untill you leave your mother.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

In answer to the title question, I believe life as we know it starts at conception, when that which will eventually form a full human being begins. Self awareness and cogniscent functions are simply the next stage in development of the foetus, of the human being, obviously you have to exist before you can be aware. Those are my two cents anyway. [/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[size=1]I'm going to say that life begins when the fetus has brainwaves. I think that before this point, one cannot be considered human, as all that exists is a collection of cells. Like Baron (again), I think that this is a key part in being human, being aware and all, so considering a fertiziled egg human seems wrong to me.

I'm assuming that this topic isn't about abortion, and that's why it hasn't blown up.[/size]

[Onazuma]

Before I Answer this, I would like to know if any1 is under 11 years of age, because i don't wanna explain something mature to under aged kids...

[Drix D'Zanth]

[quote name='Onazuma']Before I Answer this, I would like to know if any1 is under 11 years of age, because i don't wanna explain something mature to under aged kids...[/quote]

Well, I think you should be able to get away with the gratuitous details of subject matter for 11+ year olds. *chuckle*

It?s kind of absurd to debate when ?life? begins because we have an objective, empirical, proven beginning. It sounds to me when you are arguing ?humanity? begins. Here?s an easy way to tell if an organism is alive: is it dead? If not, it?s alive. Comatose people (while perhaps not ?human? in a philosophical sense) may still be alive nonetheless. From the moment of conception, there is a living and unique organism. And, logic would argue, it has the same genetic makeup required to classify it as a member of our species. In fact, the DNA in each of our cells is no different than the very first cell of our conception. We are merely a larger, more complex assemblage. Biologically speaking, brainwaves and such are products of the increased complexity- not some magical ?alive? line that people cross in-utero.

So to sum it up, life begins at conception. With that in mind, what do you think makes us ?human?? Baron gave his ideas. When do you think we gain ?humanity? outside of the natural realm?

[RedSkyCoffee]

[SIZE=1]I alway thought life started at the beginning of time D:[/SIZE]

[Zenriek]

It's life the second it's conceived. No buts about it.

Heh, nah, but really. The reason for that is, if it has a chance at life, it is alive. Destroying that is just like any other kill, but they have no way to defend themselves.

Easy peasy. :animeswea

[Raquel]

[QUOTE=Baron Samedi][size=1]However, I view self-awareness as a key point of being human. Until that point when they can separate themselves as a conscious entity, they are no different to an animal, mentally.

Which means that I see no problem with aborting toddlers :p

[/size][/QUOTE]


I agree totally. (Not to mention the extream desire to throttle ones younger sibling)

If "life" begins with a cell, babies are no better than plants or animals. And I love me some sushi.... Though I belive eating babies is illegal. *shruggs*


[Edit] Upon reveiwing Drix D'Zanth's last post, I see that I'm speaking of what's defined a "human"[End edit]

For me, I guess humanity would start at the same point as long term memory. That's memory of stuff, not trained reactions like "Bad dog, no peeing on the carpet!" and "You did a trick, heres a biscuit."

On the topic, I think that being alive is just not being a rock.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]Yikes... I have to think!

I believe that life doesn't begin inside the womb until after the first trimester. My reasons for this are the following:

1.) The first trimester is the most hazardous for the embryo. Most misscarriages happen within the first trimester

2.) Legal abortions can only be performed during the first trimester.

3.) Your first ultrasound isn't done until around the fifth month of pregnancy. And trust me, it's hard enough figuring out what you're looking at in the fifth month.

Yes, I know that I sound cruel and maybe uneducated. But that's how I feel.

And just for the record I am pro choice though I myself would never get an abortion

Oh and did you know that if you're pregnant with a girl you're not only carrying your daughter but future grandchildren?[/color][/font]

[Guest ummm]

Hmmm good question. The moment a creature is concieved is to be considered the begining of life but I think the moment of life begins once a creature is born becuase life can only happen with a living creature and creatures are living once born. So at birth!

[Drix D'Zanth]

Interesting points Raquel, I appreciate your edit too, I think the name of this thread should be changed because there?s no debating when ?life? begins. Maybe change it to ?what makes us human??
[QUOTE=Raquel]
For me, I guess humanity would start at the same point as long term memory. That's memory of stuff, not trained reactions like "Bad dog, no peeing on the carpet!" and "You did a trick, heres a biscuit." [/QUOTE]

Dogs have memory. Their recollection of trained facts is similar neurochemically to ours. They are less able to overcome/deny their instincts, less capable of learning (opening new synapses), and have a more limited memory (that we know of) in comparison to our species. But don?t confuse yourself, when a dog or cat feels hunger, immediately memories of being fed most likely drive it to the food bowl. This may form a habit over time, driven by discipline/encouragement of the owner, to the point where the animal is trained. Memory is a factor in this. Our understanding of memory is limited, but we know that short term memory and long term memory are part of the same pathway. We know that frequently repeated instances are better committed to memory and that memory degenerates? etc, I?m babbling.

[QUOTE=Raquel]
On the topic, I think that being alive is just not being a rock. [/QUOTE]

You are absolutely right. In fact there is a scientific definition for life, which makes the next post confuse me.

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]
I believe that life doesn't begin inside the womb until after the first trimester. My reasons for this are the following: [/color][/font][/QUOTE]

Huh? Your reasoning aside, I think you should clarify. So you think the embryo, between conception and the beginning of the second trimester, is dead? Because, it is a living independent organism. This as much a scientific ?fact? as any (it is a medical truth).

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]
1.) The first trimester is the most hazardous for the embryo. Most misscarriages happen within the first trimester

2.) Legal abortions can only be performed during the first trimester.

3.) Your first ultrasound isn't done until around the fifth month of pregnancy. And trust me, it's hard enough figuring out what you're looking at in the fifth month.
[/color][/font][/QUOTE]

Your ideas here aren?t cruel, Meg. I do have an issue with your logic. But I look forward to hear what you think of my criticism.

1.So? Here?s what makes that idea moot. It?s a lot safer as an embryo than it is as a born human. I got some bad news about that. It turns out, according to the most recent data, we all die- life is hazardous. Using your logic, why bother living?

2. This might be better worded as ?We have legally decided that when a human becomes a human is following the first trimester.?

3. So what? We can look at a paramecium underneath a microscope and observe each unique organism without any qualm or question. Why does that become such a problem with humans? We [i]all[/i] started out a unicellular embryo or blob-like blastocyst. Look at us now? Our bodies never stop changing. The genetic code that is responsible for this is the [i]exact same[/i] from embryo, to zygote, to brain cell, skin cell, nerve cell.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]
Huh? Your reasoning aside, I think you should clarify. So you think the embryo, between conception and the beginning of the second trimester, is dead? Because, it is a living independent organism. This as much a scientific ?fact? as any (it is a medical truth).[/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy] Fair enough Jordan. Actually I was waiting for you to reply to what I posted.

I read in one of my pregnancy books that near the end of the second trimester the fetus could survive on its own outside of the womb. Ok granted that this on its own would be on an incubator until it's life was stablized, but life could be sustained.

Until around the fifth month the embryo is still forming. After the fifth month it's just growing.... Does that make sense?[/color] [/font]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]Your ideas here aren?t cruel, Meg. I do have an issue with your logic. But I look forward to hear what you think of my criticism.

1.So? Here?s what makes that idea moot. It?s a lot safer as an embryo than it is as a born human. I got some bad news about that. It turns out, according to the most recent data, we all die- life is hazardous. Using your logic, why bother living?

2. This might be better worded as ?We have legally decided that when a human becomes a human is following the first trimester.?

3. So what? We can look at a paramecium underneath a microscope and observe each unique organism without any qualm or question. Why does that become such a problem with humans? We [i]all[/i] started out a unicellular embryo or blob-like blastocyst. Look at us now? Our bodies never stop changing. The genetic code that is responsible for this is the [i]exact same[/i] from embryo, to zygote, to brain cell, skin cell, nerve cell. [/QUOTE]

[color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]Well I did think that maybe someone may think they were cruel. I'm glad you don't. I just hope this reply is well thought out (I'm in the middle of making dinner so it's rushed)

1.) Well, yes I have found out that everyone dies at one point or another. For example my parents' friends just lost their 28 year old son last week, but that's neither here nor there. My point is that in terms of gestation the 1st and at times 3rd trimester are the most hazardous. Once we're born it's fate whether we live long or die young.

2.) Yes, I guess you're right about that one. This country has decided that in legal terms you aren't a living thing until after the 3rd month of incubation.

3.) Man I really have to think for this last one. I'm just saying that at the first trimester you can't make distinctions (at least not that I know of since I'm not in the medical profession.) Between sex or what may be happening with the embryo. Around the second trimester distinctions can be made. And by the third the fetus looks as he or she will when born....

And obviously we keep changing as we get older. Infact we even change after we die.

Okay eagerly awaiting your reply Jordan

Happy new beer!
CHW[/color][/font]

[Retribution]

[size=1]You're right - as long as you're not something like a rock, you're technically alive. However, I don't consider a red blood cell which is alive, worthy of human rights. I wouldn't consider the zygote (the correct word, I hope) a [i]human[/i] until it gains self-awareness. Until then, despite the possibilities, you're just a collection of cells to me.[/size]

[Anime Elf]

As for what makes us human, in psychology, I believe that it's the cerebral cortex (the top 1/4 inch of the brain) that's what separates us from animals. The rest underneath is the more "animalistic stuff" and basic survival instincts. Also, our brains are pretty big when folded out, bigger than a monkey's (general term there), though I doubt brain size is the deciding factor.

Oh, and some consider language to be a determinant as well, as humans are the only beings deemed to have language (not just a system of communication).

Not to mention that whole "DNA" thing, but I'm sure we already knew that part.

[Mitch]

the question of when life begins is a moot question in the context of this thread, because it does not hit at the core question that we should be asking. so when does life begin, you ask? life is eternal, life was always and it is - even before i was born there was life, even before the earth there was life. they say time is the constant thing that is eternal, but actually life was the first thing, and is actually the best increment of time created. even after the human dies, life continues, and i must say that i have an inclination that there is a world beyond this entirely physical one - but that is as far as i take it. life is far more than our day-to-do existence, and transcends beyond.

now, the real question you want to ask is at what point do we become "human" as we are conceptualized within the womb, becoming a zygote that eventually becomes more. when do we become human, then? the answer is that the instant the ovum and the sperm become one, there is a human. i don't really see the need for us to dabble in the difference between animals and humans. the core question is when are we human. does it really involve consciousness to be a human? even though we're just a mass of cells when we're first made, there is the potential for that consciousness, and it is human, even as feebly developed as it is. humans, in fact, are animals, but we just have our heads so high that we think we're something more than that. i don't see it that way. we're animals, too, but we have highly developed brains and thus i am here typing this rubbish and trying to answer abstract notions.

actually, recently, my opinion has somewhat changed on the matter of stem cell research, which is of course the main reason we are discussing this topic of when we are truly "human" and when we're not. what swayed me? it's a movie called the island, which was kind of a dystopian work (i believe it was based off the novel of the same name by aldous huxley, but i can't be sure). in this movie (and perhaps the novel, but i'm not sure),[spoiler] underneath a hospital "product" is grown - this "product" is actually clones of famous terminally-ill people. the product lives under there, unaware of the real world, and everyone down there is eventually sent to "the island," which isn't that whatsoever. it is actually when they are needed to be cut up and sabotaged to save their double.[/spoiler]

i must say that i am not entirely educated on the matter of stem cell research, as i'm sure many aren't, but i must say that this work, in a way a lot like 1984, shows an alternate future that actually doesn't seem too far away as far as i'm concerned. stem cell research could do some great things, but it does it at the cost of what i arguably consider "human beings." it also will eventually open up the way for even more genetic altering and other such rubbish, which will end up as man playing god, which i feel is something we aren't meant to do and will lead to devastating results.

[Drix D'Zanth]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy] Fair enough Jordan. Actually I was waiting for you to reply to what I posted.

I read in one of my pregnancy books that near the end of the second trimester the fetus could survive on its own outside of the womb. Ok granted that this on its own would be on an incubator until it's life was stablized, but life could be sustained. [/color][/font][/QUOTE]

Using this logic you are telling me that when we become ?human? is limited to medical technology. So thirty years ago, when medicine was incapable of supporting a second trimester birth, it wasn?t human then, but it is now? That doesn?t sit right with me.

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]
Until around the fifth month the embryo is still forming. After the fifth month it's just growing.... Does that make sense?[/color] [/font] [/QUOTE]

Yeah, but really the process is the same: growth and differentiation. It never stops, it just slows down and becomes more and more subtle.

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]
Well I did think that maybe someone may think they were cruel. I'm glad you don't. I just hope this reply is well thought out (I'm in the middle of making dinner so it's rushed) [/color][/font][/QUOTE]

It?s a fine reply, really :).

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]
1.) Well, yes I have found out that everyone dies at one point or another. For example my parents' friends just lost their 28 year old son last week, but that's neither here nor there. My point is that in terms of gestation the 1st and at times 3rd trimester are the most hazardous. Once we're born it's fate whether we live long or die young. [/color][/font][/QUOTE]

So it?s fate if we die during any period following our birth, but it?s not fate if we die before birth? Btw, sorry to hear about that loss- I worked around death during the holiday season at the ER I?m a medic at? I experienced one of the most horrible scarring deaths I?ve ever witnessed (and participated in the failed resuscitation). Believe me when I give my condolences.

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=darkviolet][font=lucida calligraphy]
3.) Man I really have to think for this last one. I'm just saying that at the first trimester you can't make distinctions (at least not that I know of since I'm not in the medical profession.) Between sex or what may be happening with the embryo. Around the second trimester distinctions can be made. And by the third the fetus looks as he or she will when born....
[/color][/font][/QUOTE]
So as long as it ?looks? human, that?s enough to constitute it as being human? What features do you think make us human? When we get fingers? When our heart beats? When our brains develop? When we can speak? When we can think?

I?m interested to hear what you think

[quote name='Retribution][size=1]You're right - as long as you're not something like a rock, you're technically alive. However, I don't consider a red blood cell which is alive, worthy of human rights. I wouldn't consider the zygote (the correct word, I hope) a [i]human[/i'] until it gains self-awareness. Until then, despite the possibilities, you're just a collection of cells to me.[/size][/quote]

Now, is there any way to understand when self-awarness begins? It certainly seems possible that it could begin before complete development of long term memory (that is, we wouldn?t remember when it begins). When?s your earliest memory of being aware? Two years old? Three, maybe?

But you make a good point, and give a reasonable answer to when you think we become ?human?.

[QUOTE=Anime Elf]As for what makes us human, in psychology, I believe that it's the cerebral cortex (the top 1/4 inch of the brain) that's what separates us from animals. The rest underneath is the more "animalistic stuff" and basic survival instincts. Also, our brains are pretty big when folded out, bigger than a monkey's (general term there), though I doubt brain size is the deciding factor.

Oh, and some consider language to be a determinant as well, as humans are the only beings deemed to have language (not just a system of communication).

Not to mention that whole "DNA" thing, but I'm sure we already knew that part.[/QUOTE]

Top ¼ inch? The cerebral cortex is a huge portion of our brain. The cortex covers almost the entire outer portion of the cerebrum (which means practically the entire brain) and is divided into various functions that may or may not be considered ?primal or not?. The cortex is responsible for everything from general sensory tasks, to personality development, to certain memory functions. From chewing, to blinking, to hearing. All mammals and most reptiles have a cerebral cortex. Just wanted to clear that up. Now, you already said that the brain isn?t a deciding factor? so I?ll withhold my arguments.

*nods* So do we become human when we finally develop language?


Mitch, good points. I agree with you. I would also put the plot of the Island in spoiler tags for those of us who haven't seen it ;).

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Scientifically speaking, I believe life begins at the moment of conception. Religiously though, though I am not sure of the sources, I heard the soul only enters the embryo at three months, (though there are some who believe it's at conception). But for some reason most islamic scholars still believe abortion is wrong even if the soul hasn't entered the body. I guess because you're still killing a potential human being.[/COLOR]

[Panache]

[QUOTE=Drix D'Zanth]Well, the basic unit of something that is ?alive? would be a cell. As organisms are a single or multicellular being capable of metabolizing and reproducing on its own, I suppose we can refer to the ?organism? as the primary designator of what we consider living or not. Some amount of cells and tissue may die of some multicellular organisms and the may be still considered alive. Also, a skin cell (or even the skin) isn?t really capable of being alive on its own. In fact, by biological definition viruses aren?t alive. They are dead little balls of protein that rely on other organisms to metabolize and procreate. Cool huh?

I suppose when we are talking about when a human becomes alive we can examine it from a few different aspects. In the sake of objectivity, I?ll give you the biological facts. While the gametes themselves are not technically living organisms, the union of a sperm and oocyte to form an embryo is the real beginning of ?life?. This is when an entirely new and (mostly) unique organism is created from two different progenitors, in the case of Humans. The embryo has entirely unique genetic material through an assorted combination (and rearrangement) of the parents? original genetic code. Being iteroparus and K-selected, ecologically, Humans are a type I (survivorship, and fecundity) population. Our offspring benefit from an extremely high survivorship rate because of the long term pregnancy and long rearing time before our children are independent of their parents. Biologically this ensures the best chance for genetic material to be passed down, at the expense of the energy needs of the parents (in fact, producing milk to raise a baby is actually a higher energy demand than the pregnancy itself!). As with all organisms, we require a source of oxygen and energy to metabolize. Because we are genetically hard wired to be dependent on our parents, an in-utero pregnancy ensures the growing organism a proper source of nutrients.

Pretty neat, yeah?

As far as when humans cross over the barrier from ?ball of cells? to humanity is a philosophical dilemma. It puzzles me really, because we are all just more complicated balls of the same types of cells that we started from *shrug*.[/QUOTE]
Hmmm if you just know that off the top of your head then can you do my biology homework? If not, can you do my biology homework? Your a friggin genius. I see why your OB official scientist. But back to the subject umm basically what he said life begins for a human whan that little sperm hits that little egg. Thats what I think.

[Starwind]

I suppose if your talking about consciousness, then it would come in around the 6 month if I' not mistaken. While If you want to look at it from a philosophical point of veiw, life begins in the blood, which would mean the second week after conseption when the fetus is infused with blood. I guess it depends on how you look at it.

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=DarkOliveGreen]Well if you want to get technical then all cells are alive. Even if they depend on other cells for their survival. So even before conception there is life. But what makes them alive to me is the ability to survive on their own outside their mother?s womb. Sure a baby would die within a very short time without care, but at that point they are living separately from another human being.

As for when they become aware? I would have to go with when their brains are developed enough to start producing brainwaves. They still aren?t truly conscious in my opinion, but it?s a big step towards becoming capable of independence. [/COLOR]