Freedom of Speech

[Guest Lancius83]

I personally think that the first amendment does not allow you to deface the american flag. What you all fail to realize is that it's illegal to deface the flag as well as the currency, the only problem is that it is a law that has not been enforced in recent years. So the question I have is how can some one claim protection under the first amendment when they are so blatently breaking the law, a law i might add that has been on the books for hunderds of years.

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Adahn][size=2]Ok, so you say that the flag represents the entire history of the country, and therefore should not be burned. You suggest that another symbol of only the current state of the country be destroyed. As far as I can tell, the most appropriate symbol for people dissatisfied with the country to destroy would be a likeness of the president. No other thing in the country represents its present state better than its leader. What are the consequences of being more appropriate? I can only imagine how dire they would be.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]So, I must stick with my argument. I know what the flag represents to some people (the entire history of the country), but it also represents where the country is, and where it is headed. Since the destruction of the most appropriate symbol is off limits, the flag serves nicely as a second choice.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]You all seem to pride yourselves on the histories of your country, but you must remember that the history of your country is probably not all that great. If the flag represents people who fought to keep our country free and good, it also represents slavery, the absence of women's rights, and all the good and bad that this country has seen since its conception. There is no purpose in protesting the past, and I can almost assure you that people who burn flags are protesting the present state of the country. If, however, people do burn flags in protest of the history of our country, then you may look amicably on them, for they surely lack the same number of chromosomes that you all are blessed with.[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=darkslateblue] Firstly, I never said people should destroy symbols that only represent the now. I'm not telling everyone to go beat up the president rather than burn flags.

I understand that many of the people who burn flags are protesting against the current state of things, but I just really disapprove of it. In my mind, there is no way of destroying a part of something that stands for everything. I mean, why do people have to [i]destroy[/i] symbols in order to protest? I find that persuasive talking and more moving actions would have a much higher effect of making an actual difference.

I do pride myself on this country's history. I know about the native americans and slavery and womens' rights and Jim Crow laws and the Japanese camps, and I knew beforehand that when I said the flag represents everything, it really does represent everything. So why should be disrespecting the men and women who have died trying to liberate and protect us? Yeah, the US has done some really disgusting things in its past, but so has every other country. People who have gone through thick and thin to try and change the wrong they saw in America, and I find it disrespectful that people now think it's ok to burn it away. Again, there are more effective ways of getting your point across. [/color]

[Roxie Faye]

[color=#9933ff]Retri, well, yeah I was half-kidding. It was a bit of playing off the fact that Bush does tend to abuse his power a lot. I totally AGREE that he is NOT a Nazi by any means, but come on, a four year old on the no fly list? Please. I'm actually worried that when I try to get out of JFK in June, they'll say "oh, nope, you can't go" because I'm such a liberal. They're monitoring my phone conversations, I tell you - they've heard me bashing him!!! >_>

Mawr. Lunox, you took the words right out of my mouth! The flag [i]does[/i] stand for everything about the country, and I also don't get why people have to be burning anything. If you're unhappy with the government, do something TRULY productive about it, to change it, rather than burning up symbols.

I think there are different types of people who burn flags, though; there are the people unhappy with our country today, and then there are anarchists and America-haters and stuff that do it because they really hate this country. Again, I respect those people's rights to do what they want, but I DON'T think it's appropriate, and I wish they [i]wouldn't[/i] do it. It disgusts me to the core when people hate everything about America, and go so far as to desecrate our national symbols, or anything else, because they supposedly hate everything about us.

Have I said "I hate America." at least once in my life? Yes. Did I really mean that I hate EVERYTHING about it - never. I hate the direction we are going in. I don't like the idea of manifest destiny that decimated millions of Native Americans. I 'm disgusted with America's past of slavery and the fact that it took so logn for the civil rights movement to come about. I hate them because they're all things we shouldn't be proud of; it's the stuff that makes you cringe, hearing it about your own country, you know? But I could never hate the fundamental principles that our country rests upon, including free speech.

I like to bet that a lot of people that "hate" our country, and everything about it are people who have nEVER gone abroad, never seen any other country in their life. A couple weeks ago, a small magazine-thing in the sunday paper had their annual list of "top ten worst dictators in the world" with Sudan in the lead. You read about the atrocities these dictators impose on their people, and then you thank God that you live in America, where, even though Bush is an abuser of our rights, he's never massacred his own people.

According to the first ammendment, I know that these people have the right to hate everything about America, and if they were ever arrested for it, I'd probably be against the government for arresting them. However, I can't condone their beliefs, and I don't agree with it. How can you say something so utterly stupid, and be so ungrateful for the freedoms of this country? In other contexts, when I meet people like that, I feel like I want to strangle them for such horrible beliefs.

I *hate* what they say, but their right to say it? Can't say I wouldn't let them. >=/[/color]

[Sara]

[color=55555][font=trebuchet ms]Would Godwin's Law be appropriate at this juncture in the conversation? :p[/font][/color]

[renayiiq]

Ok, I have a solution.
How about all the people (not just here, but anywhere) who would like to burn a U.S flag do something else...Why don't they get a flagpole, put it in their yard, and have an upside-down U.S flag? That's a better statement than burning something.
You could probably get into trouble for arson if you burn a flag, too. Like, if something happens and someone else or a tree or a house catches on fire.

[Drix D'Zanth]

Flag burning? I think it should be totally fine. Look at Nazi Germany. Hitler didn't let his swastika get burned; and we don't want to be like [i]him[/i], do we?

[Sara]

[quote name='Drix D'Zanth]Flag burning? I think it should be totally fine. Look at Nazi Germany. Hitler didn't let his swastika get burned; and we don't want to be like [i]him[/i'], do we?[/quote][color=55555][font=trebuchet ms]Dammit Drix, what did I just say? :p[/font][/color]

[Dagger]

[quote name='Lore][color=55555][font=trebuchet ms]Dammit Drix, what did I just say? :p[/font'][/color][/quote]
Oh, come on. He [i]must[/i] have done that on purpose. :animesmil

~Dagger~

[Raiyuu]

[font=Trebuchet MS][quote name='Wikipedia.org][/font']It is considered poor form to arbitrarily raise such a comparison with the motive of ending the thread. There is a widely recognized codicil that any such deliberate invocation of Godwin's Law will be unsuccessful.[font=Trebuchet MS][/quote] Bad form, Drix. Bad form. Tsk.

Meanwhile, in the land of on-topic...
[quote name='Lancius83][/font']I personally think that the first amendment does not allow you to deface the american flag.[font=Trebuchet MS][/quote] As far as I've gathered from the rest of the thread (and I'm no expert on the American Constitution, being English and all) the First Amendment [b]does [/b]allow you to burn flags, and isn't really up for interpretation in that way. You can disagree with flag-burning, but it remains a Constitutional right, I think.
[/font]

[renayiiq]

Yeah. I think I've finally had it with all of this free speech stuff. Certain people have more rights than others. In order not to offend anyone, I will not provide any examples.
I think that we should have "limited speech." So if you say something that someone doesn't like, you get fined. That's how it works in the public school system, so why not just everywhere else? I'm so tired of people complaining that they're offended.
I think it's really time to let everyone else win...if you don't, then you'll only end up losing everything in the war. People like me who want REAL free speech and want to feel free to offend will never win. Some prick will always ruin it for us.

I want to know what everyone thinks about this. I'm also just posting this to let at least part of the world (even if this little chunk of people really couldn't care less if I got ran over by a train) that I have finally given up. I'm letting the world win. I may even take out my piercing. It offends the school system, so why not just shut them up, right?

Sorry, I'm just fed up.

So, what do you think about this idea?

[Albert Flasher]

[FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]I too am fed up with this whole 'free speech' whathaveyou. But, I propose we go one step further than 'limited speech'. No matter what you say somone will be offended by it somewhere, and eventually everyone would become broke. I prepose a complete and utter elemination of communication. Logically, it's the only solution; surgically remove the vocal cords of everyone on earth, aswell as lobotomizing everyone. This way we'd have a population of grey, emotionless, uncreative, unofensive people, all living in harmony!

Hurray! [/COLOR][/FONT]

[eleanor]

[color=darkslateblue] When you have everyone agreeing with you, usually something is wrong. *shrug*

A lot of times I see many people presenting their opinion in the wrong way. They're either shoving it someone's face or they can't shut up about it. I tried to end an arugment with a friend by saying "let's agree to disagree" once, and she banged her hands on the table and said that "I'm going to make you see that you're wrong". Seriously, we were arguing about where we shopped. Shopping, for pete's sake. If you're going to shove something in someone's face, at least do it sneakily.

Anyhow... er... long live free speech! :D Probably one of the biggest things I believe in. I'd have to stamp my foot on "limited speech". 1984, anyone?[/color]

[TheShinje]

[color=crimson] NO WAI!!1!1

So, you would eliminate free speech because you're sick of people complaining they're offended? Sorry, but that comes with the territory that is freedom of speech. You're within your right to say whatever you want, and they're withint heir right to protest what you say, and call you out on it, or simply complain.

You're never going to get rid of that, so why worry? Why let dissenting opinion get you so riled that you want to eliminate the freedom of speech altogether because some ninny got his/her panties in a bunch?

Ziggy is spot on in regards to this, the only way you're ever going to be able to go through life without offending soembody is to have all forms of communication erased. Colitary existence. w007!

Freedom of speech works both ways, you see.

:animesigh
[/color]

[DeathKnight]

[QUOTE=Ziggy Stardust][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]I too am fed up with this whole 'free speech' whathaveyou. But, I propose we go one step further than 'limited speech'. No matter what you say somone will be offended by it somewhere, and eventually everyone would become broke. I prepose a complete and utter elemination of communication. Logically, it's the only solution; surgically remove the vocal cords of everyone on earth, aswell as lobotomizing everyone. This way we'd have a population of grey, emotionless, uncreative, unofensive people, all living in harmony!

Hurray! [/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]Brevity is the soul of wit.

I dunno. Not much of a war to me. Just part of existing. I guess, if you are really so dramatically involved in the 'fight' against people who are offended by you.. well, not fighting would probably offend the people who want to keep fighting.

Keep on trudging through the muck. Nothing else to really do.[/color]

[Manic Webb]

I'm sorry, but are you basing your entire argument around the fact that your speech is limited at school? Let's be glad you don't attend a private school, or you'd start supporting the idea of the general public wearing identical clothing.

You're in high school. [b]Of course[/b] they're limiting your speech. They don't want to offend the student body or faculty, as that could interrupt the learning process. And in the end, that's what it always boils down to; schools make rules to prevent the learning process from being disrupted. My high school wouldn't allow us to wear hats. I don't want to limit everyone's freedom of expression through dress.

My point is this: Don't make decisions about how you want society to be simply because you don't like your school's policies on speech. Yes, they'll fine you for saying something wrong. So what? Anywhere else, and you'd be allowed to say whatever you wanted so long as it wasn't slanderous or endangering to others.

You're lashing out. If you were suddenly thrust into a totalitarian society with no form of free speech, you'd probably hate it because you wouldn't be allowed to complain about [b]anything[/b] without penalty.

[Horendithas]

[QUOTE=renayiiq]Yeah. I think I've finally had it with all of this free speech stuff. Certain people have more rights than others. In order not to offend anyone, I will not provide any examples.
I think that we should have "limited speech." So if you say something that someone doesn't like, you get fined. That's how it works in the public school system, so why not just everywhere else? I'm so tired of people complaining that they're offended.
I think it's really time to let everyone else win...if you don't, then you'll only end up losing everything in the war. People like me who want REAL free speech and want to feel free to offend will never win. Some prick will always ruin it for us.

I want to know what everyone thinks about this. I'm also just posting this to let at least part of the world (even if this little chunk of people really couldn't care less if I got ran over by a train) that I have finally given up. I'm letting the world win. I may even take out my piercing. It offends the school system, so why not just shut them up, right?

Sorry, I'm just fed up.

So, what do you think about this idea?[/QUOTE][COLOR=Indigo]For starters I?m a bit confused on your stand about free speech. You say that we should have ?limited speech? but then you turn around and say? ?People like me who want REAL free speech and want to feel free to offend will never win.?

I am confused since at one time you posted indicating that you should have the right to remove posts in a thread you started that you did not agree with. So does your ?limited speech? apply to everyone but you?

Limiting speech at school is designed to provide an environment so that students can learn with out constant interruptions. Who would even want to attend school if they knew that others could spend the whole time saying things just to offend them? It would make attending school meaningless.

There?s a big difference between having a different opinion than others and wanting free rein to offend anyone you please at any given moment or time. If you offend others or they offend you by not agreeing with your opinion or choices well all I can say is forget the idea of ?limited speech? for all situations and instead remember what Evelyn Beatrice Hall wrote: ?I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it.? That and the fact that you can always say what you want once class is over.[/COLOR]

[Shwa]

Are you serious....."Limited Speech???" That has to be the upmost outragious thing I've ever heard. The constitution and Bill of Right have people Free Speech so they may express themselves as they please, not matter if it bothers others or offends as long as they say what they have to say then their happy. Granted that not all the time its nice or anything but its something you can get over really, or just ignore. Without Free Speech we wouldn't have the historical leaders from the past and present like we do now.

Yes it is a lot of complaining, but thats what happens everywhere, b****ing and constant crap. But at least people get to say whats on their minds and sometimes thats a good thing that can lead to a brighter tommorrow and all that jazz. To the person who started this thread, you're the one sounding like a real "prick" at the monment, in today's society its not a nice thing to offend people because it has backlashes....let me tell ya :animeswea . You should have learned that in pre-school or something.

[2010DigitalBoy]

[QUOTE=Ziggy Stardust][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]I too am fed up with this whole 'free speech' whathaveyou. But, I propose we go one step further than 'limited speech'. No matter what you say somone will be offended by it somewhere, and eventually everyone would become broke. I prepose a complete and utter elemination of communication. Logically, it's the only solution; surgically remove the vocal cords of everyone on earth, aswell as lobotomizing everyone. This way we'd have a population of grey, emotionless, uncreative, unofensive people, all living in harmony!

Hurray! [/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

*magines large group of zombies standing still in a field of flowers*

*'so happy together' starts playing and they all slowly begin moving side to side*

Oh, right, uh... limited speech sucks ***! No ******* government bastard is going to close my dirty mouth! Let the offensive sons of *****es run free!

Oh, wait, we don't even have free speech ON THIS SITE because of what? Being afraid we'll offend people??? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!! Point proven!

[KatanaViolet]

Usually no matter what you say, someone will be offended by it.
Just look at the whole situation with the Denmark cartoon. Civilians rioted over one stupid cartoon that probably wasn't even expected to cause such a disturbance. Of course, something like that would fall under freedom of press, correct?
People are going to say things that others will disagree with, dislike, or downright abhor.
I think it's how you react to such things that matter. Overseas, they burnt down the Dutch embassies. In Canada, Muslim store owners discontinued Dutch Products. In both contexts, they were still offended, but reacted differently.

If someone drew a cartoon of Jesus as a terrorist or whatever, I'm sure many Christians would probably be angry, and who knows what that could result in, I mean, who knew that some cartoon would cause riots? Personally for me, I don't really care. I think religion is overrated.

I guess I'm kind of just rambling on... my point is, people need to stop taking everything so literally, and if something offends them, then screw it. I think actions are much more offensive than words or drawings. People will say what they say, get over it.

[Claire]

[FONT=Arial]Well, you know, my free speech thread is still open, this could've just as easily been discussed there. Regardless, these are my feelings:

If the government reduced our rights to this "limited speech," that would offend everyone else who was doing all the offending to begin with! There's no way to escape it, and the best way to handle it is by letting people say whatever they want to say. Without free speech, there would be NO music, no TV (nor anime or manga), no books, no fun classes at school, no self-expression, nothing that makes this country worthwhile (at least to a teenager like me). As I've said a bunch before, there are other countries (which I'm sure you can't go to, because of a parental situation or something). [/FONT]

[KatanaViolet]

The self-expression point is probably the best point that there could be made about free speech.
Nobody would be able to stand up for their rights or their beliefs.

[Raquel]

[QUOTE=renayiiq]I'm letting the world win. I may even take out my piercing. It offends the school system, so why not just shut them up, right?
[/QUOTE]

Screw that. Never give that bottom feeding, soul sucking, crime against humanity that calls itself the school system what it wants. I spit in it's face. Technically it's the lawn, but I try to remember to every time I pass. Sure I think education is important, but not at the cost of our individuality... Public school breeds the close minded, tie wearing, cramped-into-a-tiny-white-cell-for-eight-hours, suck up zombies. Online schooling is the way to go. In our middle school they have a 4x6' room with a two way mirror for the "bad" kids. Or the retarded ones when they flip out. The reason I spent time in there was I refused to eat my dignity and take off the goth makeup I wore. They never locked me in, for which I am grateful or I'd still be paying property damage bills, but they used to lock the "socially inept" boy in, and the rest of us bad kids would have to sit in the nurses office and listen to him scream until he went hoarse. In my high school they attempted to expel me for wearing a trench coat. They did expel a friend who wore blue three days in a row. It was a sign that he was in a gang, they said. And from then on, no one was allowed to wear the same color three days in a row, anything with an eight ball on it, any billabong clothes, anything with sexual innuendos, sharp bits, carry a purse, backpack or any other bag, jackets, or hoods. So I quit. Now I'm on an online program. I can work on it anytime I want, and am free to work, or in my case, stay up all night a country kitchen gaming. The moral of the story is, public schools are a really bad example of a place for freedom of speech. Or self expression.

[Albert Flasher]

[quote name='Raquel']Screw that. Never give that bottom feeding, soul sucking, crime against humanity that calls itself the school system what it wants. I spit in it's face. Technically it's the lawn, but I try to remember to every time I pass. Sure I think education is important, but not at the cost of our individuality... Public school breeds the close minded, tie wearing, cramped-into-a-tiny-white-cell-for-eight-hours, suck up zombies. Online schooling is the way to go. In our middle school they have a 4x6' room with a two way mirror for the "bad" kids. Or the retarded ones when they flip out. The reason I spent time in there was I refused to eat my dignity and take off the goth makeup I wore. They never locked me in, for which I am grateful or I'd still be paying property damage bills, but they used to lock the "socially inept" boy in, and the rest of us bad kids would have to sit in the nurses office and listen to him scream until he went hoarse. In my high school they attempted to expel me for wearing a trench coat. They did expel a friend who wore blue three days in a row. It was a sign that he was in a gang, they said. And from then on, no one was allowed to wear the same color three days in a row, anything with an eight ball on it, any billabong clothes, anything with sexual innuendos, sharp bits, carry a purse, backpack or any other bag, jackets, or hoods. So I quit. Now I'm on an online program. I can work on it anytime I want, and am free to work, or in my case, stay up all night a country kitchen gaming. The moral of the story is, public schools are a really bad example of a place for freedom of speech. Or self expression.[/quote][FONT=Times New Roman]

[COLOR=Sienna]
Jeez, that sounds more like [I]1984[/I] than a public school...[/COLOR][/FONT]

[KatanaViolet]

Think of it, if there was no freedom of speech, think of all the great people of the world who have had such a powerful effect on the way people think: Ghandi, Martin Luther King Jr, and others.
Where would we be if these kind of people couldn't express their beliefs?

[renayiiq]

[QUOTE=Mage17]Are you serious....."Limited Speech???" That has to be the upmost outragious thing I've ever heard. The constitution and Bill of Right have people Free Speech so they may express themselves as they please, not matter if it bothers others or offends as long as they say what they have to say then their happy. Granted that not all the time its nice or anything but its something you can get over really, or just ignore. Without Free Speech we wouldn't have the historical leaders from the past and present like we do now.

Yes it is a lot of complaining, but thats what happens everywhere, b****ing and constant crap. But at least people get to say whats on their minds and sometimes thats a good thing that can lead to a brighter tommorrow and all that jazz. To the person who started this thread, you're the one sounding like a real "prick" at the monment, in today's society its not a nice thing to offend people because it has backlashes....let me tell ya :animeswea . You should have learned that in pre-school or something.[/QUOTE]

Today's society SUCKS, have you not noticed that? How come I can ALREADY get FINED for saying something to someone? HUH? That's right. Because it's nto really "free" anyways. We already have limited speech. We should just drop the name of "free" speech and change it to "limited" speech, really. It's almost gotten to the point of what I'm saying we should do. In about 100 years, what I'm say9ing will be in effect because people can't take being offended because they whine too much about "boo hoo, you called me a whore! I'm going to sue you! whether or not it's true, I'm still offended! Officer! Officer! Fine this person for saying mean things to me!" Yeah, I've almost been fined. So I should know.