When will the war end?

[lee123]

:worried: I am realy getting worried when the war will end. Will it end soon or later. Although Sadam is captured Irag is still in war with the U.S.A. Bush said the solders will come back soon hope he is right. Do youthink the solders will come back soon?

[KatanaViolet]

I've been asking myself that question.
Moreso, I'm asking myself why this war was started in the first place. The claims that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction turned out to be false. And chances are that any they did have they got from the US. Osama Bin Laden doesn't have any known ties to Iraq, at least in regards to the tragedy of 9/11.
The violence only seems to be getting worse.
The US pulling out won't solve any problems, it'll just put the responsiblity onto the other countries there on peacekeeping missions. The civil unrest there is so out of hand, if the US were to pull out there would be a full scale civil war.

The whole state of affairs makes me sick, and it's sad that it's come down to this. Haven't enough lives been lost because of the horrendous acts of 9/11 been enough? I mean, forgive me for sounding like a character in Gundam Seed, but what is this war about? When is the fighting really going to end, and what will end it? I just feel like history is repeating itself.

I'd go into more depth, but I'm getting so disgruntled just thinking about the issue makes me angry...

"War, HUH, yea, what is good for? Absolutely NOTHIN! Uh huh yea..."

[John]

It started because the White House saw something they wanted to change, and they took a bull**** initiative to get it done at an economically awkward time.

We might pull out a small number of troops as the situation allows, but we won't be getting out of Iraq for years, probably. I hope the troops stay in there as long as they're needed now, but damned if they didn't create that need in the first place, lol. Sure, it's great that Saddam was taken out, but the timing could've been just an itsy bit better.

[Starwind]

At the moment there is no clear end in sight and the problems in the middle east are only getting worse. With the bombing of the Shitte shrine in Baghdad and all the retalitory strikes since, I can easily agree with Katana in saying that this is a nation on the verge of exploding. How much of it is the US's fault is hard to say. This has been a nation with alot of turmoil, long before we came back over. As much as I would hate to say it, this nation doesn't seem to want what were trying to give it. Which for those who don't realize, we are trying to give them a free democracy, though many believe to the contrary.

I'll be the first to admit that we went there for some pretty stupid reasons, that turned out to be a load of crap, but that's neither here nor there now. The fact remains that we are so far in now that it would be more damaging to the nation in both security, stability, and economically. Unfortunatly, do to all this undue focus we put on Iraq we missed the nation that is perhaps the truest threat, Iran. We are talking about a rogue nation here, a nation that has repeatedly defied the UN. They have now effectivly withdrew all there assets back home before the UN could offer up a sanction and now they gatherd all there power at home where we can't touch them.

I doubt people here in the US will suffer much from this, or at least not immeidatly. The ones my heart goes out to are the people of Isreal who are in very real danger from this radical and violent nation. More then once, Iran has threatend to annihilate Isreal, and now that they may have nuclear capacity, this may be a reality now. Our allies in Pakistan and India are starting to waver; this is a hard time our nation is faced with. The whole of the middle east could errupt in to a full scale war, which could easily go nuclear.

We can't leave Iraq, but because of this we have had to neglect the real threats to our security and our nations peace. The national debt continues to row and now we are sufferin from a shortage of troops in Iraq. That's right, now there aren't enough people ther to get the job done. Is this administration ever going to make a good call!? Or at least stick by there bad ones and take some damn responsiblity? I'm tired now. I've gone and got myself all worked up. In short, this war is far from over, and our real problems are only just begining.

PS: By the way Katana, war isn't always bad. Think about if we had just gone "You know what, we don't need to fight. I'm sure the Germans will call off this whole invasion thing soon. And those crazy japanese were just in an off mood. I'm sure it'll be fine." Think about that before going with the whole "What is it good for? Absolutly NUTTHIN" route, okay

[Dodeca]

[quote name='Starwind']PS: By the way Katana, war isn't always bad. Think about if we had just gone "You know what, we don't need to fight. I'm sure the Germans will call off this whole invasion thing soon. And those crazy japanese were just in an off mood. I'm sure it'll be fine." Think about that before going with the whole "What is it good for? Absolutly NUTTHIN" route, okay[/quote]

[SIZE=1]Lol, first of all, I think that was just a little manipulation of a song that I don't know the name of, and you may have misinterpreted it a little. And i don't really think you can truly compare the Iraq situation (which I personally wouldn't even class as a war) to the likes of WWII. That was fought as a semi-defensive war, whereas the Iraq incident was an aggressive 'liberation'.

First, note that I'm speaking as a Briton, not an American. As far as I can see it, the original, driving purpose of this 'war' was a mixture of tying up loose ends, and getting rid of the potential threat posed by those mythical WMD's. Though the whole liberation and democracy thing played a large part in the arguements afterwards, I don't think that had all that much to do with it. In my opinion, for both the US and the UK, it was just an opportunistic thing to weasle up a little more public support. Unfortunately, if this was the case, they didn't count on the people hating them for the war afterwards.

As far as Iran goes, things have been leading up to this for a long time. If Iraq has had any effect on the situation, it probably hasn't been in diverting the US's attention away from Iran, but from drawing more of Iran's attention to the US. To them, the liberation of Iraq might look like an attack on the independence of Middle-Eastern nations and their right to use Western technology. Add to that the whole China-textures thing - an obvious and unecessary attempt to maintain Western society's hold on the economy - and I'm honestly not surprised. Iran probably don't view the US with a great deal of respect anyway, and I don't think anything either of them have done has done anything to resolve this. Iran sees the US as being more barbaric and greedy than ever, and as long as everyone else keeps viewing Iran in the same way, nothing will be solved.

Bah... I hate topics like this...[/SIZE]

[Shwa]

Pretty much war is undeterminable, there's no signt of ending unless one side has an advantage enough to win or make the other side surrender. I think it took like 10 years for the Gulf War to end, so this one might take less, equal, or more time untill anything can be solved/gained by the US.

[Ol' Fighter]

I think we are fighting for a unseeable cause and we are losing I think of it as we are a mouse in a box with a wide hole in it and then there is cheese in there and from the sky acid is raining down we are the mouse the hole is whether to leave or not and the cheese is what whoever wants and that want is so intoxicating that it's blinding people to the truth....maybe oneday there a be a :animeangr period in time for earth in which there is peace and no conspiracies

[KatanaViolet]

[QUOTE=Starwind]At the moment there is no clear end in sight and the problems in the middle east are only getting worse. With the bombing of the Shitte shrine in Baghdad and all the retalitory strikes since, I can easily agree with Katana in saying that this is a nation on the verge of exploding. How much of it is the US's fault is hard to say. This has been a nation with alot of turmoil, long before we came back over. As much as I would hate to say it, this nation doesn't seem to want what were trying to give it. Which for those who don't realize, we are trying to give them a free democracy, though many believe to the contrary.

I'll be the first to admit that we went there for some pretty stupid reasons, that turned out to be a load of crap, but that's neither here nor there now. The fact remains that we are so far in now that it would be more damaging to the nation in both security, stability, and economically. Unfortunatly, do to all this undue focus we put on Iraq we missed the nation that is perhaps the truest threat, Iran. We are talking about a rogue nation here, a nation that has repeatedly defied the UN. They have now effectivly withdrew all there assets back home before the UN could offer up a sanction and now they gatherd all there power at home where we can't touch them.

I doubt people here in the US will suffer much from this, or at least not immeidatly. The ones my heart goes out to are the people of Isreal who are in very real danger from this radical and violent nation. More then once, Iran has threatend to annihilate Isreal, and now that they may have nuclear capacity, this may be a reality now. Our allies in Pakistan and India are starting to waver; this is a hard time our nation is faced with. The whole of the middle east could errupt in to a full scale war, which could easily go nuclear.

We can't leave Iraq, but because of this we have had to neglect the real threats to our security and our nations peace. The national debt continues to row and now we are sufferin from a shortage of troops in Iraq. That's right, now there aren't enough people ther to get the job done. Is this administration ever going to make a good call!? Or at least stick by there bad ones and take some damn responsiblity? I'm tired now. I've gone and got myself all worked up. In short, this war is far from over, and our real problems are only just begining.

PS: By the way Katana, war isn't always bad. Think about if we had just gone "You know what, we don't need to fight. I'm sure the Germans will call off this whole invasion thing soon. And those crazy japanese were just in an off mood. I'm sure it'll be fine." Think about that before going with the whole "What is it good for? Absolutly NUTTHIN" route, okay[/QUOTE]

Oh my goodness. As much as I can agree with [I]some[/I] of what you say, I can't believe how brainwashed you sound. Yes, Iraq was allready screwed before the US invaded, but the fact of the matter is, this is an illegal war. The US had no UN approval in invading Iraq. But no, bombs over Baghdad, again. Based on LIES. In addition to what Dodeca said, "liberating" this nation and giving it a "democracy" came after the people starting realizing "Hey, where are all those WMDs?" then the Bush admin. was like "We're here to free this country! Saddam Hussein is a evil doer..." And I'm sorry, but what right does the US have to blow the bejeezus out of a country and then claim it was for their own good? How do you know that you angered more people who may not have been extremists before that now are because you destroyed all they had? Okay, maybe that's not completely realistic, but you never know. Now, I'm not saying that Saddam Hussein isn't a bad man, because he is. But personally, I think President of the United States just as guilty of war crimes as Saddam Hussein is. That's right, [I]I said it.[/I]

And now you're (when I mean "you" I mean the USA) looking at IRAN? What, are you going to invade them too? Maybe Bush just thought it was easier because he allready knows how to pronounce Iraq, he just as to switch the last letter (Har har). Okay, I will be the first to admit that I don't know the whole situation with Iran, but I do know that nuclear programs aren't just for building bombs, however likely or unlikely it may be that they are using nuclear programs for energy. But what is the deal? Is nobody else except the US allowed to have nuclear capabilities? Do we really want to repeat history all over again? Rogue nation? Bush didn't even listen to the UN on invading Iraq!! I can understand the implications if we do [I]nothing[/I], but there's got to be a better solution then pulling another Iraq. Enough countries hate the US as it is. Besides, if anything, I'm sure Iran sees the US as a threat to [I]their[/I] security.

And in the midst of all this, I still have one question. [I]Where is Osama Bin Laden.[/I] or for that matter, [I]why were members of the Bin Laden family who were in the US shipped back to Saudi Arabia days after the 9/11 attacks, when there were no flights allowed?[/I]

God, lets just blow ourselves up and get it overwith. I'm sick of all this crap. I'm tired of the Canadian and other hostages who aren't even there to fight, Canadian soldiers getting axed in the head while holding peace talks with village elders, and the whole time our Prime Minister wants to put more money into spending so we can provide the necessary backup in the mess that was created over there. :animesigh And what's more I'm sick of George Bush and his poor excuse of a presidency.

P.S. Don't be so cocky as to compare this to WWII, maybe if the US killed, you know, [I]over a million people[/I] then we can compare it to the Germans. This can be compared to Vietnam, but its not even close to WWII. Not yet anyways.

And just in case I offended anybody here, I am not anti-American. I have family in the states, I have been there many times, but when it comes to the Bush Administration and the Iraq war, thats where my disgust comes in. So I'm sorry if I bruised the ego a bit. But this is what it's coming to. This is how people are starting to view the US.

It's a sorry, sorry state of affairs, that it is. I wonder how humanity is going to recover from this one...

[Sayuri-sama]

well honestly im not a political person but i think this war is ridiculous. it is the hugest waste of time and it is causing us time,money and effort. hundreds of innocent lives are lost each day. we wouldnt be in any of this mess if werent for mister bushy-bush. he created this huge ordeal, so he better get us out.:animeangr

[Albert Flasher]

[FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]This is how I see it: the US had stepped on a landmine. Ya know, like in those war movies, were the guy hear's the click and everyone freezes, because one false move can set it off? And while that guy is standing there, contemplating how to get off the mine without being blown to hell, a distrubed colony of warrior ants attacks him and starts crawling up his pant leg. He can't move, because than he'll get blown to hell, and he can't stand there, because no one likes ants in your pants, right?

It's essentially correct; the US is stuck in Iraq now. They simply can't leave, and almost definatly won't ever leave without Iraq degenerating into a civil war/seperate radical states/glass. Now, I agree Sadam was a monster and a cruel dictator, but one thing he could do was keep a country filled with religious radicals (note: not all Muslims, but there are a lot of radicals in Iraq) run secularily, and keep it from destroying itself, witch would have ultimaty done more damage than he ever did personally.

IMO this war will do far more damage than Saddam ever did, and Saddam was a bastard, don't get me wrong, I hate the guy... this war is just... *bleh*[/COLOR][/FONT]

[KatanaViolet]

[QUOTE=Ziggy Stardust][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]This is how I see it: the US had stepped on a landmine. Ya know, like in those war movies, were the guy hear's the click and everyone freezes, because one false move can set it off? And while that guy is standing there, contemplating how to get off the mine without being blown to hell, a distrubed colony of warrior ants attacks him and starts crawling up his pant leg. He can't move, because than he'll get blown to hell, and he can't stand there, because no one likes ants in your pants, right?

It's essentially correct; the US is stuck in Iraq now. They simply can't leave, and almost definatly won't ever leave without Iraq degenerating into a civil war/seperate radical states/glass. Now, I agree Sadam was a monster and a cruel dictator, but one thing he could do was keep a country filled with religious radicals (note: not all Muslims, but there are a lot of radicals in Iraq) run secularily, and keep it from destroying itself, witch would have ultimaty done more damage than he ever did personally.

IMO this war will do far more damage than Saddam ever did, and Saddam was a bastard, don't get me wrong, I hate the guy... this war is just... *bleh*[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]

You deserve a standing ovation for that.

And three years after the invasion started, shouldn't things be getting *somewhat* better? No, the anniversary is celebrated with "Operation Swarm". And Bush is still singing the same tune.
"This is for Iraq", "I believe in our strategies in place to make Iraq a free country"
It's all the same stuff we've heard before, and to be quite honest I'm tired of hearing the same old justifications. I mean, they can barely even admit they were wrong.

It took Cheney a whole day to come out about shooting his buddy in the face, what else do you think they're hiding?

I shudder to think. :animesigh
I concur with the *bleh*.

[Darth Vectis]

[COLOR=DarkGreen][SIZE=1]This is a very interesting convertation going on here, I'd like to throw something in their If I could.

To put a point to your" Shouldn't things be getting better?" question Katana, it would be getting better. If not for the fact that our government is not thinking, as they usually do. But what I mean is, they are trying to rush Iraq into democracy in a matter of a couple of years, when they should remember that it has taken us at least 200 years for us to have build up our system of government. And it is still not a perfect system, but nothing is perfect.

But the government expects Iraq to change at the snap of a finger and just be happy with that. But, again, they fail to remember our own history. We were ruled by Britian and we tolerated it for a while, then they started imposing all this other crap on us and we snapped. We fought back and got our country out of their grip. So, if bush keeps pressuering Iraq with military forces such as he is doing now, Iraq will eventually snap and fight back.

And the question of, if our forces will be pulled out. Don't think it is happening anytime soon, since Bush needs to maintain some level of control.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[KatanaViolet]

Indeed, this is a very controversal debate.
Although I don't overtly disagree with what your saying, I do want to elaborate.
While I do agree that you can't build a democracy in a few years, and I acknowledge what you said about America's history, at the same token, Canada's head of state is still the Queen of England, and things have been pretty good for us thus far.

And, reflecting on what Dodeca had said, the Bush Administartion's driving purpose for invading Iraq were that there were weapons of mass destruction and that Iraq had links with Al Queda/Osama Bin Laden. It wasn't to free their country. It wasn't to make Iraq a better place. I could go on about speculations of just wanting oil, but who knows about that. Freeing Iraq came after people started saying "Hey, what happened about everything you said before?"

The fact of the matter (in my opinion) is that there were no weapons of mass destruction, and if there was then chances are they were from the US from like what, the 90's? I'm not sure. The Bush administration rushed into this war using any propaghanda it could, and/or on horrible intelligence, and then tried to cover their *** by looking noble, to free the country. There's just this shadyness to all of what has occured that leaves me untrusting of the Bush administration in its entirety.

Interestingly enough, this whole argument I'm trying to make reminds me of an Anti-Flag song (yes, another song analogy, but it does make a point if you think of it from my perspective.) I'll try to sum it up for ya.

[COLOR=Indigo][I]Anatomy Of Your Enemy[/I]
10 easy steps to create an enemy and start a war:
First step: create the enemy. Sometimes this will be done for you.
Second step: be sure the enemy you have chosen is nothing like you.
Find obvious differences like race, language, religion, dietary habits
fashion. Emphasize that their soldiers are not doing a job,
they are heartless murderers who enjoy killing!
Third step: Once these differences are established continue to reinforce them
with all disseminated information.
Fourth step: Have the media broadcast only the ruling party's information
this can be done through state run media.
Remember, in times of conflict all for-profit media repeats the ruling party's information.
Therefore all for-profit media becomes state-run.
Fifth step: show this enemy in actions that seem strange, militant, or different.
Always portray the enemy as non-human, evil, a killing machine.
[Chorus:]
THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY. THIS IS HOW TO START A WAR.
THIS IS HOW TO CREATE AN ENEMY.
Sixth step: Eliminate opposition to the ruling party.
Create an "Us versus Them" mentality. Leave no room for opinions in between.
One that does not support all actions of the ruling party should be considered a traitor.
Seventh step: Use nationalistic and/or religious symbols and rhetoric to define all actions.
This can be achieved by slogans such as "freedom loving people versus those who hate freedom."
This can also be achieved by the use of flags.
Eighth step: Align all actions with the dominant deity.
It is very effective to use terms like, "It is god's will" or "god bless our nation."
Ninth step: Design propaganda to show that your soldiers
have feelings, hopes, families, and loved ones.
Make it clear that your soldiers are doing a duty; they do not want or like to kill.
Tenth step: Create and atmosphere of fear, and instability
and then offer the ruling party as the only solutions to comfort the public's fears.
Remembering the fear of the unknown is always the strongest fear.
[/COLOR]

Depending on what extreme you're on, it may or may not be exaggerating. Keep in mind that this is a song, but for me, its a little nastalgic. It makes me think of the events leading to the war, all the chaos after 9/11, all the fear and confusion... I remember that after 9/11 I was asking so many questions. I was as shocked and horrified as everyone.

This is the war that's happening in our generation and to be completely honest, I could have never forseen an attack so history-making and so unexpected happening in my lifetime. I didn't even know at the time that Clinton bombed them in the 90's (which turned out to be a hospital, or was it an aspirin factory?), or that the tension between Western and Middle East was that bad, I was just a kid back in those days, the only big thing I recall from back then is the Columbine shooting. And when I learned about Osama bin Laden and what has happened in the past, and then after heard of the "nukes and missles and chemical weapons" in Iraq, and it just seems like it all happened so fast. And then what? There were no weapons. I mean, at least Saddam is gone, but does that really make America or any other country safer?

The world really did change from that event. And the US literally jumped the gun, too soon, and just opened up the floodgates.... could things have turned out differently if this was approached democratically? Doing anything other than starting a full scale "pre-emptive" attack because of bad intelligence on innocent people?

:animesigh Maybe I'm just spouting nonsense...perhaps...I just want real answers, not the same old justifications and political rhetoric.

:animeblus And holy cow, I just realized how long this thread is... that was quite the rant, I give kudos whoever took the time to read all that. <33