Views on Science

[Wolf Rider]

Speaking of magic, I'd like to see science try to figure out how we can shapeshift.

[Guest tanukioh]

[quote name='Wolf Rider']Speaking of magic, I'd like to see science try to figure out how we can shapeshift.[/quote]
shapeshift? ooooOOOOooo! ^_^ i wish I knew a charm for that!

hahah that would be hillarious to see them try it.

update on the "i won't be here" situation. O.o I MIGHT be able to log on, ^_^ so, yeah. I know no one was spazzing over it, but I thought I'd let you all know.

[Wolf Rider]

[QUOTE=tanukioh]shapeshift? ooooOOOOooo! ^_^ i wish I knew a charm for that!

hahah that would be hillarious to see them try it.

update on the "i won't be here" situation. O.o I MIGHT be able to log on, ^_^ so, yeah. I know no one was spazzing over it, but I thought I'd let you all know.[/QUOTE]

I'm a Yanagloshi, it means skinwalker in Navajo.

[Guest tanukioh]

[quote name='Wolf Rider']I'm a Yanagloshi, it means skinwalker in Navajo.[/quote]
Cool! I'm an onmyouji, which is yin-yang master in japanese. ^_^ >.> well.. I'm in training, but still. :) We should PM eachother and figure out how closely our magics are related.

[Ayokano]

I doubt any non-mammalian can have a higher thought level than mammals do, seeing how they have small brains. Reason is a very high level of thought, and reptilian brains probably can do very little of it, if any. It is also highly unlikely they could have had any benevolence.

Also, you never answered how they floated or why they had the ability to control water and weather.

If we could shape shift, our whole bodily systems would had to be rearranged, and we would have to gain and depose of the features of the object we would had transformed into. But, that is ultimately impossible, and the only creature that has such an ability to change form is and octopus. Though, octopus can only change the shape and size of their bodies, because they lack any skeleton, and have a soft body.

So maybe if you could explain to me how skin-walkers change form, which would be helpful.

[Guest tanukioh]

[QUOTE=Ayokano]I doubt any non-mammalian can have a higher thought level than mammals do, seeing how they have small brains. Reason is a very high level of thought, and reptilian brains probably can do very little of it, if any. It is also highly unlikely they could have had any benevolence.

Also, you never answered how they floated or why they had the ability to control water and weather.

If we could shape shift, our whole bodily systems would had to be rearranged, and we would have to gain and depose of the features of the object we would had transformed into. But, that is ultimately impossible, and the only creature that has such an ability to change form is and octopus. Though, octopus can only change the shape and size of their bodies, because they lack any skeleton, and have a soft body.

So maybe if you could explain to me how skin-walkers change form, which would be helpful.[/QUOTE]
^_^ ok, first off, to every rule, there is an exception. This is true in pretty much everything. So dragons could have large minds, capable of all kinds of emotions, and be comletely benivelent (for the most part since all eastern mystical creatures can be good or bad depending on the individual creature in question). O.o also, I think that regardless of brain size, all life forms have emotions.

secondly, the ability to float comes from thier status as spiritual creatures. ^_^ they are the exception to all the rules of the physical world. O.o now as to water and weather, that is due to their strong connection with the elements. :) (Earth Water Fire Air (wood and metal if you are talking Eastern Elements).)

o.o Ooo! I wanna know how that works as well! >.> My magic works through connection to the elements, connection to nature, and the Yin-yang principle. :D O.o well, that's my POV on it, anyways.

[Ayokano]

[quote name='tanukioh']^_^ ok, first off, to every rule, there is an exception. This is true in pretty much everything. So dragons could have large minds, capable of all kinds of emotions, and be comletely benivelent (for the most part since all eastern mystical creatures can be good or bad depending on the individual creature in question). O.o also, I think that regardless of brain size, all life forms have emotions.[/quote]

If every rule has and exception, how does it apply to "pretty much everything"? Humans have a complex brain, and thus a larger amount of emotions. While reptiles have simple brains, with very low levels of emotion. So, if these dragons are reptiles, how do they have such high levels of thought and emotion, while their class (Sauropsids/ Reptilia) has low levels?

Anyway, I believe I've seen nothing use such powers. That must explain why these dragons are such elusive creatures though.

[Delta]

[COLOR=#656446]Oh no, dragons aren't reptiles. They branched off Class Reptilia through the missing link between bird-hipped and saurichian dinosaurs and made a class of their own (Draconia). It's just like how members of Class Mammalia evolved from therapsids and Aves from pterosaurs.

But I guess that was supposed to go in the "Dragons" thread, yeah? ;P[/COLOR]

[Justin]

Maybe this thread is now the perfect example of what I said earlier, lol.

-Justin

[Guest tanukioh]

[QUOTE=Ayokano]If every rule has and exception, how does it apply to "pretty much everything"? Humans have a complex brain, and thus a larger amount of emotions. While reptiles have simple brains, with very low levels of emotion. So, if these dragons are reptiles, how do they have such high levels of thought and emotion, while their class (Sauropsids/ Reptilia) has low levels?

Anyway, I believe I've seen nothing use such powers. That must explain why these dragons are such elusive creatures though.[/QUOTE]
O.o I used that as a qualifier, in case someone said "This rule has no exception!"

^_^ Ahhhh, nice input on the general branch of reptiles v. dragon's intellect. :) I think it's like octopie and squid. o.o generally, invertibrets are *supposidly stupid, and have to work together as a group to accomplish anything major (like making a hive, or an anthill), but octopie and squid are able to think in a fairly complex manor, and solve problems. >.> they are the exception to the rule for invertibrates. :D so dragons can have the same exception for them.

True, such powers are hard to determine, seeing as the users like to stay hidden.

[quote=Delta] Oh no, dragons aren't reptiles. They branched off Class Reptilia through the missing link between bird-hipped and saurichian dinosaurs and made a class of their own (Draconia). It's just like how members of Class Mammalia evolved from therapsids and Aves from pterosaurs.

But I guess that was supposed to go in the "Dragons" thread, yeah? ;P [/quote]
O.o I didn't know that. ^_^ thank you for the info!!

o.o yep. :)

Please, everyone, try to focus on more than the dragons! talk about magic, monsters, alchemy, religion, astrology, prophetic dreams, psychics, or anything else "paranormal". Just remember....NO INSULTING ANYONE FOR THEIR VIEWS!!!!!!!!!!

[quote=Kam] Maybe this thread is now the perfect example of what I said earlier, lol.

-Justin[/quote]

ummm.. >.> i forget what you said earlier. o.o was it a good thing or a bad thing?

[John]

[QUOTE=tanukioh]ok, good point on that. ^_^ and I'm not saying science is bad, I'm saying for it to let up and let other povs get around, too, instead of treating them like another common place experiment.

O.o Yes. physical universe. :) this is why it cannot proove or disproove the existance of God, spirits, souls, ghosts, etc. They are not in a physical form. o.o it's entirely unknown to science, so some people say "Not there". >.> I say, "If you think it's there, ok. enjoy your pov! but don't get into a closed up box."[/QUOTE] Ok, that was... that was the entire point of my post. That science [b]isn't[/b] a point of view. It's an absolute. It shouldn't "let up" so that somebody can have an excuse to believe whatever they want. ;o

Science is the standard that every belief about everything in the universe must be held up against. If there's a clash between science and your belief in monsters and benevolent dragons, then your belief has to be the one to stand down, not science. That's not my opinion, that's how it works.

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=tanukioh]

Please, everyone, try to focus on more than the dragons! talk about magic, monsters, alchemy, religion, astrology, prophetic dreams, psychics, or anything else "paranormal". Just remember....NO INSULTING ANYONE FOR THEIR VIEWS!!!!!!!!!![/QUOTE][FONT=Times New Roman]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Ok.

Magic, in the general sense, defies the laws of science on every level and is thus impossible. You may think it works but chances are it's all in your head.

Monsters do not exist either. There is no way that, in this day and age, a creature could exist without leaving a trace at all. Be it a corpse or a credible sighting, it would be found.

Alchemy is a crackpot science invented by some nutty men in the middle ages with pointy hats to gain the kings favour... lead-to-gold etc.

Religion... not getting into religion.

Astrology is laughable. "Oh look, neptune is in Area X, thousands of pigeons in New Delhi will die!"

Prophtic dreams are usually inspired by falling asleep in a room full of propane gas, or bieng on crack, or a combonation of both.

Psychics are usually a bunch of fakes who misdirect people and use general terms to try and fool people into believe them.

Satisfied?[/COLOR][/FONT]

[lee123]

There are stuff scienc can answer and there are stuff they cant answer. For example how did exsistence came? Science can't solve everything.

[HarveyDandylion]

[QUOTE=tanukioh]More and more i'm starting to see that science is NOT the only way to look at things. in fact, it may actually be doing some damage by trying to dominate all the other views.

For another thing, science claims that it has proven that certain things do not exist (magic, dragons, monsters, etc.) but, there is still evidence to the contrary. O.o NOTHING can be actually disproven, unless it's opposite is proven (and even that is hard to do!).

:) What do you think/believe? Is science the one true view on things, or do you follow a different path?

[color=DarkGreen][font=Trebuchet MS]I've edited your thread title to make it more obvious what your thread's about. Please read the [thread=52331][u]Otaku Lounge Rules Sticky[/u][/thread] for more information on informative thread titling.
[/font][/color] [right][b][font=Trebuchet MS][color=DarkGreen]-Raiyuu[/color][/font][/b]
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I think science is just an easy target because people in there minds seperate it from everything else. Science obvisously says that unless you can prove it exists its probably not really out there.

Magic is just ridclous in terms of todays cultural views of it. Pagans and other such things were always about rituals and creating a group mentality, there were never any coverns summoning demons up, or healing people. Its just been blown out of proportion with muyths of greatness.

But back to science. Itrs not actually just about creating new technologies and such. Its often about understanding. Newton, one of the last classical scientist did all his research on gravity and light for the church in an attempt to understand light and why it was so 'devine'. So science really is just the next logicall step up from religion. Once we began to actually learn more and more concreate facts it became science, but really it is just the same has someone creating a religion has a means to understand the world. Creation myths are just that, people trying to work out what came before they were there. Science is just the extension of that and it does actually branch out through everything we do; art, philosaphy, etc...
Science probably can't answear everything, but it will most likely be linjked to another area of learning that will be able to understand the things it can't. So really learning will eventually be able understand it, while science will eventually know everything there is to know about particles and what not.

[liamc2]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=1]*quietly places 1/2 of a Bachelor of Biomedical Science on the table*

I've always been a lover of the world of fantasy. The concept of a world of magic has always been entertaining to me, but I'm not going to be the first to say "dragons are real because through evolution it may be possible"

[However, I would be quite happy to say, "I'm running to the store and picking up the latest Discworld/Harry Potter, or I'm playing Oblivion until my eyes bleed"]

I'd say dragons exist through a sense of folkloric taxonomy. I mean, it's the study of what things may have looked like, or an exaggeration of a possibly incorrect interpretation. It's in human nature to say to something, "bones of a giant lizard? That's pretty stupid...but how grand would it be for it to breathe hell fire and brimstone?"

Sure, magic and dragons could exist, but I'm going to say that all of this is more likely to be an evolution of ideas or tall tales from long ago, that has now sponsored a wonderful growth of fantasy fiction and culture in our age.

Once evidence has been gathered, and I mean real evidence*, then I'll be more likely to accept and know that the truth has been out there all along, just well hidden. I'm not about to rule anything out entirely, simply because I know how often everything in the [i]amazing world of science[/i] changes and improves.

I swear, every semester I start with the lecturer saying, "this is actually a newly discovered theory/ biochemical test/cellular process that explains all those unanswered questions we've always had," and I'm not even in medicine yet.

[*I'm talking along the lines of less than 97% identical to any other genetic sequence here]

*tags [b]Drix[/b], the OB's [b]Official Scientist[/b][/font][/size]

[Guest tanukioh]

[QUOTE=John]Ok, that was... that was the entire point of my post. That science [b]isn't[/b] a point of view. It's an absolute. It shouldn't "let up" so that somebody can have an excuse to believe whatever they want. ;o

Science is the standard that every belief about everything in the universe must be held up against. If there's a clash between science and your belief in monsters and benevolent dragons, then your belief has to be the one to stand down, not science. That's not my opinion, that's how it works.[/QUOTE]
:) thanks for your input. >.> but I still think a world with one "correct" set of laws/POV/religion/whatever is far to dull to allow to exist. o.o ^_^ secondly, I get where you're coming from. O.o though I don't really feel I should stand down, since I don't want to add to the one sidedness.

[quote=Ziggy Stardust]Quote:
Ok.

Magic, in the general sense, defies the laws of science on every level and is thus impossible. You may think it works but chances are it's all in your head.

Monsters do not exist either. There is no way that, in this day and age, a creature could exist without leaving a trace at all. Be it a corpse or a credible sighting, it would be found.

Alchemy is a crackpot science invented by some nutty men in the middle ages with pointy hats to gain the kings favour... lead-to-gold etc.

Religion... not getting into religion.

Astrology is laughable. "Oh look, neptune is in Area X, thousands of pigeons in New Delhi will die!"

Prophtic dreams are usually inspired by falling asleep in a room full of propane gas, or bieng on crack, or a combonation of both.

Psychics are usually a bunch of fakes who misdirect people and use general terms to try and fool people into believe them.

Satisfied?
[/quote] OoooO. ^_^ good post. yes, I'm satisfied (though I disagree). O.o there IS a way for magic to work and be explained by science. :) Energy flow. I'll explain later in a link. o.o I only wanna type it once.

Thanks for the post. very good points.
[quote=liamc2]*quietly places 1/2 of a Bachelor of Biomedical Science on the table*

I've always been a lover of the world of fantasy. The concept of a world of magic has always been entertaining to me, but I'm not going to be the first to say "dragons are real because through evolution it may be possible"

[However, I would be quite happy to say, "I'm running to the store and picking up the latest Discworld/Harry Potter, or I'm playing Oblivion until my eyes bleed"]

I'd say dragons exist through a sense of folkloric taxonomy. I mean, it's the study of what things may have looked like, or an exaggeration of a possibly incorrect interpretation. It's in human nature to say to something, "bones of a giant lizard? That's pretty stupid...but how grand would it be for it to breathe hell fire and brimstone?"

Sure, magic and dragons could exist, but I'm going to say that all of this is more likely to be an evolution of ideas or tall tales from long ago, that has now sponsored a wonderful growth of fantasy fiction and culture in our age.

Once evidence has been gathered, and I mean real evidence*, then I'll be more likely to accept and know that the truth has been out there all along, just well hidden. I'm not about to rule anything out entirely, simply because I know how often everything in the amazing world of science changes and improves.

I swear, every semester I start with the lecturer saying, "this is actually a newly discovered theory/ biochemical test/cellular process that explains all those unanswered questions we've always had," and I'm not even in medicine yet.

[*I'm talking along the lines of less than 97% identical to any other genetic sequence here]
[/quote]

Most shibby. ^_^ we have a Biomedical-science-guy who is kinda sorta on my side, and kinda sorta on the other side! Cool.

Please, visit [url]www.youkaimura.org[/url] and go the the "secret lounge" and the forums. There is plenty of talk of spirits and magic to satisfy your interests. you might even find a few pieces of evidence. :animesmil

^ is an invetation to everyone, not just liamc2.

Thanks again to everyone for the input. :) I can't wait to see what POVs present themselves next.
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[SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkOliveGreen][B]tanukioh[/B], please take the time to only quote the part of a previous person's post that you are responding to. When the quotes used are more than twice as long as your reply, it's a good sign that you need to trim the quotes. To do that you can just remove any extra text that is between the two [quote*] [/quote*] tags of the person you are quoting. By narrowing it down to only what you are responding to you will make it easier for others to understand your replies. If you have any questions feel free to pm myself or another member of the staff. ~*SunfallE[/COLOR][/SIZE][/INDENT]

[Wolf Rider]

[QUOTE=Ayokano]I doubt any non-mammalian can have a higher thought level than mammals do, seeing how they have small brains. Reason is a very high level of thought, and reptilian brains probably can do very little of it, if any. It is also highly unlikely they could have had any benevolence.

Also, you never answered how they floated or why they had the ability to control water and weather.

If we could shape shift, our whole bodily systems would had to be rearranged, and we would have to gain and depose of the features of the object we would had transformed into. But, that is ultimately impossible, and the only creature that has such an ability to change form is and octopus. Though, octopus can only change the shape and size of their bodies, because they lack any skeleton, and have a soft body.

So maybe if you could explain to me how skin-walkers change form, which would be helpful.[/QUOTE]

I was kidding about me being an actual skinwalker, so I don't really know how they change form but they can, I've seen one myself. I lost my mother and my uncle because of one. All I can say is that they are really scary. And I wouldn't want to be one. A Skin-walker is a shaman with a supernatural talent to turn into a certain creature.

Possibly the best documented skin-walker beliefs are those of the Navajo yee nadlooshii, also sometimes referred to as a Navajo witch by outsiders. The yee nadlooshii are human beings who have gained supernatural power by breaking a cultural taboo. Specifically, a person is said to gain the power of a yee nadlooshii by murdering a close relative. And also, if a family member of a skinwalker dies, then the years of that person will be added to the skinwalkers life. The skin-walker will sometimes travel through the community by night, spreading misery and desecrating holy things. He or she is usually described as naked, except for a coyote skin. The yee nadlooshii is also said to have the power to assume the form of a coyote or other animal.

The main power of the yee nadlooshii comes from its use of corpse powder which is made from human cadavers. Touching the powder will curse a person with sickness or death. This is an inversion of the use of pollen among the Navajos, which is sprinkled to produce blessings. Another form of this is a bone pellet which the yee nadlooshii will shoot into a victim's body.

Here's a picture of someone holding a skinwalker statue. [img]http://www.aliendave.com/files/Photos/Creatures/Skinwalker_Lawrenceacquez.jpg[/img]

Here's some skinwalker stories told by people who had these encounters. [url]http://dineunderground.com/forum/index.php?topic=2716.0[/url]

Oh yeah, and seeing a skinwalker is something you'll never forget. Anyone interested in encountering one? :devil:

[Guest tanukioh]

[quote name='Wolf Rider']Oh yeah, and seeing a skinwalker is something you'll never forget. Anyone interested in encountering one? :devil:[/quote]
Depends on if is a nice one or a bad one.... if nice, then sure! ^_^ perhaps we can test ourselves in a sparing mactch and see how similar our magics work. o.o OOOO maybe we could even work together sometimes.

As for a bad one...ummm... >.> Well.. I don't think so. :animeswea but as long as he/she doesn't mess with someone I like, they're ok... but if they do, :flaming: They'll see the rage of an angered onmyouji!!! :devil:

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Wolf Rider]

Here's a picture of someone holding a skinwalker statue. [img]http://www.aliendave.com/files/Photos/Creatures/Skinwalker_Lawrenceacquez.jpg[/img]
[/QUOTE][FONT=Times New Roman]
[COLOR=Sienna]
And here's a picture of a man doing crack cocaine of a PCP pipe! :D
[IMG]http://www.roadraceengineering.com/rreimages/crackpipe.jpg[/IMG]

Connection? I think so.[/COLOR][/FONT]

[Guest tanukioh]

[QUOTE=Ziggy Stardust][FONT=Times New Roman]
[COLOR=Sienna]
And here's a picture of a man doing crack cocaine of a PCP pipe! :D
[IMG]http://www.roadraceengineering.com/rreimages/crackpipe.jpg[/IMG]

Connection? I think so.[/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]
OY OY OY!! :mad: I SAID NO INSULTING!!!!!!!

PLEASE do NOT say things like that again. Voice your oppenion in a nicer way, please

[Ikillion]

[COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1][FONT=Comic Sans MS]-just absolutly dies of laughter- Oh my..that was just very funny.

[QUOTE=tanukioh]OY OY OY!! :mad: I SAID NO INSULTING!!!!!!!

PLEASE do NOT say things like that again. Voice your oppenion in a nicer way, please[/QUOTE]

Actually that wasnt an Insult. He just mearly posted a picture of a guy...-dies laughing again- doing crack on a PVC pipe. I don't see how that was an insult to any kind of thing in the first place..but goodness that was just to funny for words. I think Charles is begining to grow on everyone. Although those ...no I can't say that. wouldn't be nice..

Now that I think about it though, isnt the whole idea that you are proposing here ..or magic or whatever you wan't to call it a part of science? think about it.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Guest tanukioh]

[QUOTE=Ikillion][COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1][FONT=Comic Sans MS]-just absolutly dies of laughter- Oh my..that was just very funny.



Actually that wasnt an Insult. He just mearly posted a picture of a guy...-dies laughing again- doing crack on a PVC pipe. I don't see how that was an insult to any kind of thing in the first place..but goodness that was just to funny for words. I think Charles is begining to grow on everyone. Although those ...no I can't say that. wouldn't be nice..

Now that I think about it though, isnt the whole idea that you are proposing here ..or magic or whatever you wan't to call it a part of science? think about it.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]
Ok, my bad. ^_^ I take it back, but still, I would like to keep fight from breaking out. (stuff like that always leads to fights at school)

Possibly, but still, there are more ways to look at something than just scientifically analizing it. >.> This is what i'm trying to get accross. o.o besides, magic isn't supposed to exist, according to science, so it's not really scientific. ^_^ it's more of an art, I think.

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=tanukioh]Ok, my bad. ^_^ I take it back, but still, I would like to keep fight from breaking out. (stuff like that always leads to fights at school)

Possibly, but still, there are more ways to look at something than just scientifically analizing it. >.> This is what i'm trying to get accross. o.o besides, magic isn't supposed to exist, according to science, so it's not really scientific. ^_^ it's more of an art, I think.[/QUOTE][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]
Science is the study of the natural world. The natural world being everything. Either something is scientific... or it doesn't exist.That's the long and short of it. Does magic exist? I don't rule it out, but I don't rule out that Pamela Anderson's breasts are real either, but is that true?

And sorry if I insulted anyone with that picture, I had it on my harddrive and needed somewhere to use it. It seemed appropriate. [/COLOR][/FONT]

[Guest tanukioh]

[QUOTE=Ziggy Stardust][FONT=Times New Roman][COLOR=Sienna]
Science is the study of the natural world. The natural world being everything. Either something is scientific... or it doesn't exist.That's the long and short of it. Does magic exist? I don't rule it out, but I don't rule out that Pamela Anderson's breasts are real either, but is that true?

And sorry if I insulted anyone with that picture, I had it on my harddrive and needed somewhere to use it. It seemed appropriate. [/COLOR][/FONT][/QUOTE]
True, but there is more than the scientific way to look at it. You can see a painting as a mass of atoms and pigments, or as a beautiful expression of the artist's feelings, or even a gateway into the mind of someone you've never met. O.o Are the last 2 scientificly driven? i don't think so. ^_^ and I like the last 2 the best.

also, The pic was funny! O.o I just figured I'd tell you not to try that again, because it could be taken as insulting, or an attack at a belief. ^_^ next time you do something like that , please put "not meant as an insult" in parenthasis or something, k?

[Wolf Rider]

Actually, I thought that picture was really funny. I have a huge sense of humor. :D
As for skinwalkers being good, there is no good skinwalker. They are all evil. Another thing I forgot to mention is that they can attack you in your sleep, when that happens don't expect to wake up so easily. :D Also, they don't bother non-natives, unless your like Tanukioh. If you mess with a skinwalker, you drag your whole family into it. :D
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And back to science. I'm only into the Astrology part of it.
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[COLOR=DarkOliveGreen]Please do not double post [B]Wolf Rider[/B]. If you need to add something use the edit button located in the lower right-hand corner of your post. If you have any questions feel free to pm myself or another member of the staff. ~*SunfallE[/COLOR][/INDENT][/SIZE]