The Mexico Border dispute

[Dale_Valley]

i have been watching the news lately, and all these riots and massive assamblies about all the illigals and the ways for mexicans, cubans, and other hispanics to gain legal citizenship. i am unsure of my own opinion. i simply want to know others opinopns and what they think should be done.

now, if you have any plans on bashing anybody severly, get out, i dont want any big flames in here. lets all act like big boys and girls and not throw around senseless crap.

[KatanaViolet]

Honestly when I think of this, I think of what the comedians say...

"The Native Americans had a word for illegal immigration... it's called 'white people'"- Jay Leno

I'm not going to quote it per batem, but I think it was John Stewart that said that George Bush isn't exactly one to talk when it comes to entering another country illegally :therock: :bellylol:

[Retribution]

[size=1]I dunno, I figure the entire United States of America (except for about 5% of Native Americans) is made up of immigrants. To close up our borders just because of xenophobia or racial resentment seems foolish and blind.

I also think that immigrants, particularly those from the Latin world, make up the backbone of the blue-collar workforce. They take the jobs everyone else is too high and mighty to do -- construction is the first one that comes to mind. Without them, our nation would stop.

So, my stance is to oppose closing the Mexican border.[/size]

[Drako]

[SIZE=1]I don't know; I have a lot of different views on things. I think that if we're going to be the so-called "land of the free/home of the brave" or whatever, then we shouldn't be threatening to build a gigantic wall, similiar the the Great Wall of China, between Mexico and America to keep the Mexicans out.

I also think there's something to be said for staying in your own country. I'm by no means racist, but I'm ALSO not of the opinion that humans are naturally a migratory species.

*EDIT* ... pushed "enter" a little sooner than I meant to.

Anyway, as I was saying. If I had my way, we'd all stay where we were born and call it good. I'm not into that whole personal imperialism deal. However, if we must we must, and some people feel that they MUST move to another country, and as long as people feel the need, they should be allowed to do so without all the complications.[/SIZE]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]To be honest I'm not really sure what to think of this.

As other people have already said the United States is a country of immagrants- if you want to get technical even the Native Americans immagrated over here during the Ice Age.

That said I am right now an unemployed un skilled worker who has a child to support and bills to pay. I was born in the United States. Why should I run the risk of losing a chance at a job to someone who's here illegally?

Let the flames begin.

[/color][/font]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=ChibiHorsewoman][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]That said I am right now an unemployed un skilled worker who has a child to support and bills to pay. I was born in the United States. Why should I run the risk of losing a chance at a job to someone who's here illegally?

Let the flames begin.

[/color][/font][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Outperform them, and our society will bring itself up. If everyone is trying their hardest to outperform their neighbor, America will have a renewed spark of creativity and progress.

I also think that those who leave Mexico leave for a reason -- I don't know, maybe poverty, to save their wife and children from starvation, a hope for a better life. It's not like they wake up one day and say "Hey, I think I'll go to America." And I think that everyone has the right to escape poverty -- if that means illegal immigration, I won't look down on them for it. If I were in their position, I would do the same.[/size]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Border disputes seem to be becoming much more common nowadays, although more accurately it would seem to have to do with illegal immigrants seeking low-wage employment. In a fair majority of cases these people are the only ones who'll work the minimum wage, long houred jobs that most normal people will avoid like the plague. The problem lies in the fact that if too many of these people enter a country, then eventually those people who were already employed in low wage positions could lose their jobs over the fact these immigrants will work longer for less. Currently in Ireland there's massive debate over our immigrant policy due to the fact Ireland is simply too small to be able to accommodate the flood of asylum seekers and illegal immigrants we're getting.

That said however I think the onus needs to be on the governments of these immigrants to clean up their own acts, as opposed to relying on other nations to take in those who want a better life. A citizens first duty should always be to make his/her nation a better place for the future generations.[/SIZE]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]While I don?t think we should close the border, I do agree with cracking down on illegal immigration. Sometimes I think people tend to overlook the fact that many of the people they are referring to enter the country [I]illegally[/I]. There are plenty of people who take the time to migrate into the country legally. They are not the problem.

I also think part of the problem is that companies will hire them knowing that they are in the country illegally and yet they hire them because they can pay them far less since they won?t say anything to avoid being sent back to their own country.

Here in Utah most fast food places are pretty much staffed by people from other countries whether they are legal or not. (at least the ones near my house are, I don't know about the rest of the state) As a result working for a place like Wendy?s has changed from paying 6.50 an hour back in 1994 to paying 5.15 an hour. They?ve taken advantage of the fact that they will work for less to pay everyone less. And you hear in the news on a regular basis how other illegal immigrants are working at different jobs and getting paid even less.

The advantage of being legal and allowed to work in the USA is that it helps to protect you from an employer taking advantage of you to pay less and deny you medical benefits.

Truthfully I get tired of people acting like we don?t care about illegal immigrants as if we owe them somehow. If they were legal I would not care, but since when was breaking the law suppose to be overlooked? Or rewarded?

Say I?m looking for a job, am I suppose to just accept that someone who isn?t even legally allowed to work got it? If they took the time to immigrate legally into the country then they have as much right to the job as I do. Otherwise, send them home. [/COLOR]

[renayiiq]

I just have a question....if they hate Mexico so much, why don't they all ban together to try to change it? Have a revolution?

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]While I don?t think we should close the border, I do agree with cracking down on illegal immigration. Sometimes I think people tend to overlook the fact that many of the people they are referring to enter the country [I]illegally[/I']. There are plenty of people who take the time to migrate into the country legally. They are not the problem.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Just as there are those who do not have the time to wait several years in line to become a legal immigrant. America only allows in a very small number of immigrants per year, and the impoverished worker in Mexico struggling to feed his family really doesn't have the time to wait in line. Yes, he probably could wait a few years and watch his family starve, maybe lose a child, and then come here legally.

It bothers me when people dismiss immigrants as those who were too impatient to wait and let the American immigration process assume them legally. Honestly, there must be a problem when people are willing to walk through a desert with only a canteen of water for a better life.

[quote name='renayiiq']I just have a question....if they hate Mexico so much, why don't they all ban together to try to change it? Have a revolution?[/quote]

Because the bourgeoisie/upper-class are always needed to lead and coordinate those revolting. Without the wealthy and educated at the helm of the revolution, it'll fizzle and burn out due to lack of coordination, planning, and leadership. The American and French Revolutions both had a group of wealthy and educated men who were discontent with the system, and stood up to change it. Unfortunately, in Mexico, the wealthy and educated are the ones who are profiting from the system that the common worker despises. There will be no change unless there is discontent among a percentage of the upper-class who are willing to stand up and fight.[/size]

[lee123]

Depends on which they came across legaly. Ileagaly nahaIf they cant come a member if they come in leagaly that be wrong.

[Aaryanna]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Just as there are those who do not have the time to wait several years in line to become a legal immigrant. America only allows in a very small number of immigrants per year, and the impoverished worker in Mexico struggling to feed his family really doesn't have the time to wait in line. Yes, he probably could wait a few years and watch his family starve, maybe lose a child, and then come here legally.

It bothers me when people dismiss immigrants as those who were too impatient to wait and let the American immigration process assume them legally. Honestly, there must be a problem when people are willing to walk through a desert with only a canteen of water for a better life.[/size][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]It still doesn?t change the fact that they entered the country illegally. It?s true that immigrating to the US takes time and that only so many are allowed in each year, but to turn around and then assume that people here in America are dismissing them as just being impatient isn?t accurate either. There is also a huge problem here in Utah with illegal immigrants who also came just to sell illegal drugs. As a result those few who are doing negative things make the rest who are just looking for a better life, look like a threat not only to the working force but to the community as well.

What bothers me is that people assume that we are suppose to take care of people who are starving in another country since their own government has failed them. What happened to attempting to solve our own problems of unemployment and poverty? Overall I believe that the current system needs to be improved, so that more people aren?t driven to entering the country illegally.

I?m not saying that it?s all right for people to starve. >_< Don?t assume that I?m dismissing them. The religion my Mom belongs to does all sorts of welfare work in other countries to help people with food and clothing, including Mexico. I help my Mom when she makes simple tie quilts to be donated for this purpose. Just as others she knows provides clothing and money for food. And it?s not just a one-time deal either. It?s something that the members do all year long. Every year.[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]It still doesn?t change the fact that they entered the country illegally. It?s true that immigrating to the US takes time and that only so many are allowed in each year, but to turn around and then assume that people here in America are dismissing them as just being impatient isn?t accurate either. There is also a huge problem here in Utah with illegal immigrants who also came just to sell illegal drugs. As a result those few who are doing negative things make the rest who are just looking for a better life, look like a threat not only to the working force but to the community as well.

What bothers me is that people assume that we are suppose to take care of people who are starving in another country since their own government has failed them. What happened to attempting to solve our own problems of unemployment and poverty? Overall I believe that the current system needs to be improved, so that more people aren?t driven to entering the country illegally.

I?m not saying that it?s all right for people to starve. >_< Don?t assume that I?m dismissing them. The religion my Mom belongs to does all sorts of welfare work in other countries to help people with food and clothing, including Mexico. I help my Mom when she makes simple tie quilts to be donated for this purpose. Just as others she knows provides clothing and money for food. And it?s not just a one-time deal either. It?s something that the members do all year long. Every year.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[size=1]I'm with you on the fact that we should allow more people in than we currently do so that people aren't driven to immigrate illegally. I was saying that the trickle-through pace at which we allow immigrants to come into the USA just won't cut it.

My comment about impatience wasn't directly aimed at you, although you seemed to think "Send 'em all home." It also bothers me that you think that America is somehow not obligated to help a less fortunate country solely because they messed themselves up. Perhaps a modern day analogy would suit things best.

You cross a homeless man on the street who lost all his money on gambling. You just finished a meal, and are walking home with the leftovers in a box. He asks if he can have some of your food, but you say no. You're not obligated to help a starving man solely because he wasted all his money on gambling and messed himself up.

My whole point is that America is so decadent that we can certainly share a bit of the wealth to a struggling neighbor. To say "Hey, I wasn't part of the problem," doesn't excuse you from not being part of the solution.

Anyway, it's not like the Mexican government is on a permanent holiday, however, it's not like they're going to make any drastic change any time soon either. For the reasons I stated in my last post, it's also [basically] impossible for them to start up a revolution. So either everyone immigrates to the USA or we help them. Problems don't spontaneously fix themselves with legislative band-aids and commands of "Why don't you fix up your own country!"

It's honestly pretty cool that your mother and you do that, and like I said, my dismissive statement wasn't really aimed at you, but at what I see from most Americans.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I'm with you on the fact that we should allow more people in than we currently do so that people aren't driven to immigrate illegally. I was saying that the trickle-through pace at which we allow immigrants to come into the USA just won't cut it.

My comment about impatience wasn't directly aimed at you, although you seemed to think "Send 'em all home." It also bothers me that you think that America is somehow not obligated to help a less fortunate country solely because they messed themselves up. Perhaps a modern day analogy would suit things best.

You cross a homeless man on the street who lost all his money on gambling. You just finished a meal, and are walking home with the leftovers in a box. He asks if he can have some of your food, but you say no. You're not obligated to help a starving man solely because he wasted all his money on gambling and messed himself up.

My whole point is that America is so decadent that we can certainly share a bit of the wealth to a struggling neighbor. To say "Hey, I wasn't part of the problem," doesn't excuse you from not being part of the solution.

Anyway, it's not like the Mexican government is on a permanent holiday, however, it's not like they're going to make any drastic change any time soon either. For the reasons I stated in my last post, it's also [basically] impossible for them to start up a revolution. So either everyone immigrates to the USA or we help them. Problems don't spontaneously fix themselves with legislative band-aids and commands of "Why don't you fix up your own country!"

It's honestly pretty cool that your mother and you do that, and like I said, my dismissive statement wasn't really aimed at you, but at what I see from most Americans.[/size][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]I should have been more clear on the send them home part. By no means do I think all of them should be sent home. I actually think a system where those who are here illegally should have a chance to prove that they do need to be here would be a better idea. They could even require illegal immigrants to do what others do when they break the law, do some community service or charity work. So then they could not only get the right to stay in America but by doing community service they are essentially paying for breaking the law. Perhaps that?s a bit farfetched, but it seems like having to do a few hours a week of charity work is far better than being sent back home. It?s just an idea that I have.

As for my comment about being obligated, I get frustrated when the local government tears down a building that provided shelter and food for the homeless and then turns around and makes a big deal about sending aid to another country. Something that happened in the town I live last year, they casually threw the homeless people out on the streets and then used money that could have built a new shelter here on other more high profile projects like helping starving children in third world countries.

What really made me angry is they then had the gall to say that the younger generation didn?t care about saving the current building or providing a new one for the homeless. We weren?t even given a choice, we found out by waking up to see the building being demolished. So I?m sorry if that sounded like we shouldn?t help. I just get tired of seeing new ?help other countries projects? while those meant to help people here are being taken away. It?s a political tactic that disgusts me. So I sounded harsher than I intended. Sorry about that.

I do agree that many people just ignore the problem and it certainly wouldn?t hurt to help since like you pointed out it?s pretty obvious that a revolution is out of the question. And those who are rich certainly aren?t doing much to fix it. Or so it seems.

Anyway, I think I took your statement a little to personally, sorry about that. ^_^[/COLOR]