Manga Bleach Manga [Warning: Spoilers]

[Magus]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Really actually, it was a pity to waste Byakuya on Zommari, a fight between the former and Ulquiorra would definitely have been interesting to watch.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Oh how I would love to see that fight.

More issues with this power thing in Bleach. That flashback has me baffled. If the vasto lordes are suppose to be the top form of a hollow, then why send some espadas to recruit them when they can be easily taken out? Or can the espadas actually hold their own against vasto lordes? If that's the case then they need to clear up Toshiro's explanation. (Hitsugaya.. [strike]You need to be relieved of your captain status[/strike] you fricken overexaggerator)

Also, I'm starting to think that there won't even be a winter arc. Unless Aizen finishes whatever he's doing with that thing, (forgot what it's called lol.) and retreats to another location. As Kenpachi told Ichigo, they were waiting till winter because they thought it would take that long for Urarhara to do whatever when it only took a month. And with both Unohana (and her vice captain) and Orihime floating around, I don't see any point in retreating now.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]More issues with this power thing in Bleach. That flashback has me baffled. If the vasto lordes are suppose to be the top form of a hollow, then why send some espadas to recruit them when they can be easily taken out? Or can the espadas actually hold their own against vasto lordes? If that's the case then they need to clear up Toshiro's explanation. (Hitsugaya.. [strike]You need to be relieved of your captain status[/strike] you fricken overexaggerator)[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I know what you mean, Nnoitra was still only ranked 8th of the Espada at that point too, so I don't see him being able to take on a Vasto Lorde. That said, Neliel was probably a Vasto Lorde before she became an Espada, so she'd probably be able to defeat another one in combat, as we know becoming Arrancar increases the power available to a Hollow.

As for Hitsugaya, I think we can just assume at this point he's an idiot who's comparing his own power to that of the Vasto Lordes and assuming it's the same for all Shinigami Captains. God that brat annoys me.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Also, I'm starting to think that there won't even be a winter arc. Unless Aizen finishes whatever he's doing with that thing, (forgot what it's called lol.) and retreats to another location. As Kenpachi told Ichigo, they were waiting till winter because they thought it would take that long for Urahara to do whatever when it only took a month. And with both Unohana (and her vice captain) and Orihime floating around, I don't see any point in retreating now.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]It's really hard to guess with Aizen, he's already shown himself capable of manipulating events ahead by decades, so whether or not this is all still aspects of his overall plan is hard to know. Looking at it straight-on however, he'd really want to send out Tousen and Gin to try and force some Shinigami loses before things turn completely against him. Hell, he's only facing three captains, what happens when the others arrive on ?[/SIZE]

[Solo Tremaine]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]As for Hitsugaya, I think we can just assume at this point he's an idiot who's comparing his own power to that of the Vasto Lordes and assuming it's the same for all Shinigami Captains. God that brat annoys me.[/SIZE][/quote][COLOR=#503F86]Oh, I really like Hitsugaya. I think he's cool; I was hoping he'd pop back in again soon. He has been absent for pretty much the entire Hueco Mundo arc, so it's not as if he's been as major a player as Renji, whom I don't like so much.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Solo Tremaine'][COLOR=#503F86]Oh, I really like Hitsugaya. I think he's cool; I was hoping he'd pop back in again soon. He has been absent for pretty much the entire Hueco Mundo arc, so it's not as if he's been as major a player as Renji, whom I don't like so much.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Jeez, Hugo, I'm struggling hard to retain the respect I've built up for you after that statement. ^_~

I've never really liked Toshirou, he's always come off as too damn arrogant and all-knowing when out of all the captains, he's been pwned the most in fights. Hell, if Luppi was the same strength as Grimmjow (and I severely doubt it), then Ichigo's definitely stronger than him now, and that's with less than a year as a Shinigami. That gaki had enough page time in Soul Society, I want to see what Unohana can do.[/SIZE]

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]Haha, I thought you might :p

I know he's not necessarily very good at swordplay, but I like him all the same. A lot of other chatacrers are far more interesting, but there's just something about Hitsugaya I identify with although I couldn't tell you what. I think I have a thing for characters with white hair...

But considering he's just had a starring role in a film I'm more than happy to see what the other captains can do.[/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

On the Vasto Lorde flashback issue: no one said Neriel and Nnoitra were out to fight a Vasto Lorde. Their mission was to recruit. If the Vasto Lorde is kind of the ultimate form a Hollow can attain without becoming an Arrancar, we can assume they're capable of rational behaviour. In all likelihood, if the duo met a Vasto Lorde and he/she reacted to their offer with hostility, they'd be minced. But they weren't planning to start a scrap.

I try to avoid power comparisons because they make my head hurt. Example here: becoming an Arrancar is a huge increase in power, because it adds an element of Shinigami power, plus the added advantage of reason and more control over their raw Hollow power. So it's entirely possible that a hybridised Adjuchas (which, for the sake of argument, is what I'm assuming Neriel and Nnoitra are) would be more powerful than a pre-hybridisation Vasto Lorde. But then, released Nnoitra couldn't beat Kenpachi, but Hitsugaya said an unhybridised Vasto Lorde was more powerful than a Shinigami Captain. So surely Nnoitra is less powerful than a raw Vasto Lorde. Except that Kenpachi isn't a typical Captain, and Nnoitra fought him in an idiotic way. And in the flashback, even if they'd had to fight, it would have been two against one.

There are just too many factors to judge. This isn't DBZ, where you have numbered levels and level 2 is categorically stronger than level 1.

[Magus]

[quote name='Raiyuu']On the Vasto Lorde flashback issue: no one said Neriel and Nnoitra were out to fight a Vasto Lorde. Their mission was to recruit. If the Vasto Lorde is kind of the ultimate form a Hollow can attain without becoming an Arrancar, we can assume they're capable of rational behaviour. In all likelihood, if the duo met a Vasto Lorde and he/she reacted to their offer with hostility, they'd be minced. But they weren't planning to start a scrap.[/quote]
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]That's what I was saying. Guess the words wasn't coming out right. I mean, why send #3 and #8 espada to recruit when you can get better results (no slugfest) with #1 and #2 (or 1 and 3... etc), ya know?

[quote name='Raiyuu']There are just too many factors to judge. This isn't DBZ, where you have numbered levels and level 2 is categorically stronger than level 1.[/quote]
Hehe. I've already learned my lesson with a DBZ comparison. It's even more confusing. If anything, I was going with more of a Naruto approach. (Comparing abilities with power I suppose... :p)

I skipped the mid-section on purpose because, [b]hybridised Adjuchas[/b] was going to give me even more of a headache :D[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']On the Vasto Lorde flashback issue: no one said Neriel and Nnoitra were out to fight a Vasto Lorde. Their mission was to recruit. If the Vasto Lorde is kind of the ultimate form a Hollow can attain without becoming an Arrancar, we can assume they're capable of rational behaviour. In all likelihood, if the duo met a Vasto Lorde and he/she reacted to their offer with hostility, they'd be minced. But they weren't planning to start a scrap.

I try to avoid power comparisons because they make my head hurt. Example here: becoming an Arrancar is a huge increase in power, because it adds an element of Shinigami power, plus the added advantage of reason and more control over their raw Hollow power. So it's entirely possible that a hybridised Adjuchas (which, for the sake of argument, is what I'm assuming Neriel and Nnoitra are) would be more powerful than a pre-hybridisation Vasto Lorde. But then, released Nnoitra couldn't beat Kenpachi, but Hitsugaya said an unhybridised Vasto Lorde was more powerful than a Shinigami Captain. So surely Nnoitra is less powerful than a raw Vasto Lorde. Except that Kenpachi isn't a typical Captain, and Nnoitra fought him in an idiotic way. And in the flashback, even if they'd had to fight, it would have been two against one.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah it was obviously a diplomatic mission as despite Nnoitra being apparently over-eager to fight a Vasto Lorde, it was pretty clear from what Neliel hinted at that he'd get massacred by one if he decided to fight. Becoming an Arrancar gives a Hollow access to Shinigami style powers as well as a more human form, which obviously has it's benefits in terms of combat, compared to some Hollow's forms, D-Roy comes to mind.

As Vasto Lorde's are already human-shaped roughly, all they get is the Shinigami powers as well as I'm assuming some kind of power boost like all Arrancar. That said, it seems to be that only an Vasto Lorde class Arrancar can stand against another Vasto Lorde. I'm also guessing due to her high rank within the Espada, Neliel was a Vasto Lorde before she became an Arrancar, as people seem to move up in the ranks rather than down, with a few exceptions.

We know that the transformation from Hollow to Arrancar has similar effects as Shinigami to Vaizard, the gaining of opposing powers. But really, we have no idea how big or small a relative power boost comes from that transformation. Until we do, we just can't say with any kind of certainty whether an Adjuchas Arrancar could defeat a Vasto Lorde, although my gut says no.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Raiyuu']There are just too many factors to judge. This isn't DBZ, where you have numbered levels and level 2 is categorically stronger than level 1.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]That really would be helpful though, wouldn't it ?[/SIZE]

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='Gavin']That really would be helpful though, wouldn't it ?[/quote]If by helpful you mean super dull and robbing the series of all subtlety :p

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']If by helpful you mean super dull and robbing the series of all subtlety :p[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Heh maybe, but at least then we wouldn't be confused. ^_^;[/SIZE]

[Magus]

[COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="1"]Plot advancement in the next chapter... Finally. (hopefully)

Maybe I can get a [spoiler]Isshin, Urahara, Aizen [/spoiler] showdown. [spoiler]And perhaps some unrevealed Ban Kai's[/spoiler].

Although I'm not a fan of Nnoitora, some of his harsh comments cracks me up a bit.

It's good that Kubo haven't lost that sense of throwing comedy in at the serious moments. I normally don't care for comedy in anime/mangas, but Bleach (manga) does it right. (and it's actually funny)[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="1"]Plot advancement in the next chapter... Finally. (hopefully)

Maybe I can get a [spoiler]Isshin, Urahara, Aizen [/spoiler] showdown. [spoiler]And perhaps some unrevealed Ban Kai's[/spoiler].

Although I'm not a fan of Nnoitora, some of his harsh comments cracks me up a bit.

It's good that Kubo haven't lost that sense of throwing comedy in at the serious moments. I normally don't care for comedy in anime/mangas, but Bleach (manga) does it right. (and it's actually funny)[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the assault on Karakura town to come quite so soon, seems Aizen has been using the Shinigami's attack as a way to divert attention away from his real goal.

Here's hoping as Mem said that we get to see Isshin and Urahara, maybe even Ryuken get involved and see a few of the unrevealed Bankai. Of the three traitor-Captains, I'd like to see Isshin fight Tousen, as they seem to have fairly similar contemplative personalities. [/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Yeah, I have to admit, I wasn't expecting the assault on Karakura town to come quite so soon, seems Aizen has been using the Shinigami's attack as a way to divert attention away from his real goal.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

And yet again he shows that he has the whole world in his hands. I like that it's moving straight into the next wave of battles, if for no other reason than these fights will finally include the oh so overlooked characters we've been dying to see get some action. Since Aizen is going in person, will we get to see Yamamoto pull out all the stops and confront him? I'd find that rather interesting...

But what I [I]really[/I] want to see is, the same as everyone else, Isshin in an extended fight, Ryuken perhaps showing us just how badass a Quincy can actually be, and then Urahara going all out as well, maybe matched up against Gin. They both have that understated threatening power about them, such that it could make for quite an interesting battle. But, who will they really fight? ... It should be good, no matter the match-up.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']But what I [I]really[/I] want to see is, the same as everyone else, Isshin in an extended fight, Ryuken perhaps showing us just how badass a Quincy can actually be, and then Urahara going all out as well, maybe matched up against Gin. They both have that understated threatening power about them, such that it could make for quite an interesting battle. But, who will they really fight? ... It should be good, no matter the match-up.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about, we've seen Urahara fight, but never really fight seriously, same with Ryuken and Isshin, seeing as the normal world is their home, obviously they should be the ones fighting for it.

Anyone else like to see Karin and Yuzu develop their own Shinigami powers in the future ?[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Anyone else like to see Karin and Yuzu develop their own Shinigami powers in the future ?[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I can definitely picture Karin progressing down that route. She has the attitude that's necessary for a shinigami and she's shown a great deal of improvement when it comes to sensing (wow I almost called them youma) Hollow. And since genetically she'd be just as predisposed as Ichigo, she just might have a bit of potential. She and Tatsuki both I'd like to see progress.

Yuzu is just so cute and innocent, I don't know if going in the shinigami direction would be right for her. Even if her power matures, she herself is simply so immature, I don't know if it could really be overcome. I'd be content seeing her become all buddy-buddy with Ururu. They would be [I]adorable[/I] as close friends. Plus then, Ururu could protect her if things got hairy.

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]You've also got the [spoiler]Vizard[/spoiler], haven't you? I doubt they'd stand idly by while their [spoiler]hometown gets trashed by Aizen[/spoiler]. But I'd definitely agree. I'm really excited by the prospect of Urahara's bankai and more stuff from the others back home.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']Yuzu is just so cute and innocent, I don't know if going in the shinigami direction would be right for her. Even if her power matures, she herself is simply so immature, I don't know if it could really be overcome. [/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I don't know where you get immature out of TC, Yuzu practically assumed the role of mother for the family after Masaki died, that to me anyway shows a lot of maturity. Sure she's an emotional kid sometimes, but at her age and having lost her mother, can you really blame her ?

Besides if Yuzu became a Shinigami, she'd definitely be either 4th or 13th Squad, probably more leaning towards the former rather than the latter, I see her as a kind of young Unohana, although Ukitake could probably bring her out of her shell pretty well.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]I don't know where you get immature out of TC, Yuzu practically assumed the role of mother for the family after Masaki died, that to me anyway shows a lot of maturity. Sure she's an emotional kid sometimes, but at her age and having lost her mother, can you really blame her ?

Besides if Yuzu became a Shinigami, she'd definitely be either 4th or 13th Squad, probably more leaning towards the former rather than the latter, I see her as a kind of young Unohana, although Ukitake could probably bring her out of her shell pretty well.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

My statement is referring to the near future. I don't think she'll overcome her current little kid-ishness enough to be out on the battlefield anytime soon. In 20 years, I could see her resembling Unohana, whereas I see Karin taking steps similar to Ichigo in the next few years, or months even. For the time being, though, I guess the way I see it is that being motherly or caring doesn't in and of itself denote maturity. Picking herself up and carrying on after her mother's death shows she has inner strength, something that [I]over time[/I] could lead to her assuming a role similar to Unohana, but my initial reaction was in reference to her advancement towards shinigami status being [I]soon[/I]. Like you said, she is young and quite an emotional kid, enough so that I don't see anyone pushing her in that direction until she changes. I don't think that's what Isshin would want, if nothing else. It's kind of like how Orihime would be better off if she didn't have her abilities. She doesn't have the mindset to be able to endure these kinds of situations. It puts her in a tight spot, one that makes her feel uncomfortable more than anything else. Sure, being able to help people around you is great, but being considered a liability is something no one wants. [I]Right now[/I] and for the next several years, I think Yuzu would just be a liability if she tried getting involved. Even if she developed a measure of skill, she would still be the one everyone feels the need to protect, and that's not what we need in a shinigami.

When it comes to her current maturity level, I just see her as being very typical of young Japanese girls today, whereas Karin is very atypical. My family has hosted several Japanese transfer students. These were all young girls who could and did 1) cook 2) do laundry and 3) act as their family's cheerleaders. However, compared to young girls here in the States, they were overall exceptionally immature. The way they reacted to pressure, or being put on the spot, heck, even their complete refusal to look a young man in the face or even speak to him showed they had a lot of growing up to do. Yuzu doesn't share all of those traits with them, but she is seemingly naive when it comes to the real world, losing her mother or not. Karin grasps the reality she's seeing, and I don't think it fully hinges on her being a few years older. I like Yuzu as a character. I just think it wouldn't be wise to introduce her into the world of shinigami just yet. And I realize you meant this question to be posed about their [B]future[/B] development. I'm just explaining why I think Yuzu's would be in the [I]distant[/I] future.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']My statement is referring to the near future. I don't think she'll overcome her current little kid-ishness enough to be out on the battlefield anytime soon. In 20 years, I could see her resembling Unohana, whereas I see Karin taking steps similar to Ichigo in the next few years, or months even. [/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, maybe I wasn't clear enough in my last post, when I talked about them developing their own powers, I mean at around fifteen or so like Ichigo rather than in the next few months. Actually, Ichigo's powers were actually only activated by Rukia passing her's into him, it's entirely possible that they were meant to be sealed for even longer.

I think becoming a Shinigami would actually be better for Yuzu than it would be for Karin. Karin is already fiercely independent, although I actually feel that's to mask her own emotional trauma by just suppressing it, so her becoming a Shinigami would follow a very similar path to Ichigo of developing a resolve and going from there. For some reason, I could see her very at home in the 11th. Heh.

Yuzu on the other hand I think needs something to really draw her out of her shell and her self-assumed role of mother to the family. We see nothing of her friends or activities outside of doing housework which constrasts with Karin, so you have to wonder what goes on there. If she were to develop her own powers, I think it would give her a role that is truly "Yuzu's" rather than previously "Masaki's". Maybe I'm wrong, I just have a soft-spot for Yuzu and I'd like to see her developed a bit more.

Regarding the maturity of taking on the household as she did TC, yeah I accept that it's normal, I was more so referring back to what Isshin said about when their mother died, both Ichigo and Karin became distant, while Yuzu took on that burden of acting as mother of her own accord, I think that does show a maturity and a resolve.

Heh, either way, the twins developing their Shinigami powers is for a plot-arc a long way away from now.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Heh, either way, the twins developing their Shinigami powers is for a plot-arc a long way away from now.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Wow, I wasn't paying attention to something. Twins...yeah, I'd managed to miss that little detail, or at least forget it completely. Well, there goes my concept of Yuzu being a little sister to Karin. Actually, maybe the fact that I simply assumed they were years apart reinforces why I view Yuzu the way I do. It seemed obvious to me that she's younger. I was [I]wrong[/I], but it still seemed obvious.

If Bleach goes on long enough for us to see them developing powers years down the road, I will be beyond surprised, I'll be shocked. Kubo might do some small future arcs, maybe something that would be turned into OVAs, but I see Ichigo still being mid-teens when the series ends. That's why I said what I did about the *twins*. I don't see us seeing them make progress of that kind. It might be revealed to us that it was going to happen, maybe Isshin saying something foreshadowing it, but as for it [I]happening[/I]...I just can't envision it. I mean, will Aizen, or some other evil that rises from the dark, wait 10 years before acting, and then Ichigo and co. will be brought back into the fray, all Naruto time-skip style? Kubo would have to have a reason to drag the story out like that. It would be an interesting twist from what I'm expecting, and maybe it would work out for the better.

Only time will tell, I guess.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']If Bleach goes on long enough for us to see them developing powers years down the road, I will be beyond surprised, I'll be shocked. Kubo might do some small future arcs, maybe something that would be turned into OVAs, but I see Ichigo still being mid-teens when the series ends. That's why I said what I did about the *twins*. I don't see us seeing them make progress of that kind. It might be revealed to us that it was going to happen, maybe Isshin saying something foreshadowing it, but as for it [I]happening[/I]...I just can't envision it. I mean, will Aizen, or some other evil that rises from the dark, wait 10 years before acting, and then Ichigo and co. will be brought back into the fray, all Naruto time-skip style? Kubo would have to have a reason to drag the story out like that. It would be an interesting twist from what I'm expecting, and maybe it would work out for the better.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, if Bleach continues at it's current pace, we probably won't see Yuzu or Karin develop any kind of powers beyond what they already have. That said, Naruto and DBZ both had time-skips, so I wouldn't be overly surprised if Kubo decided to move on a few years in the story at some point.[/SIZE]

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]I imagine the twins have more or less fulfilled their roles in the early story, to an extent- giving Ichigo someone to protect while his Shinigami powers developed, and to act as an Achilles' heel whenever he's back home. I don;t think Aizen would really be particularly bothered by them. If someone doesn't attack him, I can't see him doing anything to them unnecessarily. Maybe if Isshin was silly enough to try and take him on they might try and intervene, but even then... I can't see them being any threat or target to Mr. Plot Twist. Besides, they've got their own mini storyline with Don Kanonji. I don't think you could recover from that :p

Tatsuki and Mizuiro I could see having larger roles in the future. That would be cool.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Solo Tremaine'][COLOR=#503F86]Besides, they've got their own mini storyline with Don Kanonji. I don't think you could recover from that :p[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeesh, don't even start with that, there was one cool bit when Raku the cat-spirit transformed and that was it. Besides, call me crazy, but for the longest while I've had the feeling Kanonji is a Shinigami in disguise, if only for how cool a plot twist it would be if it turned out to be true.

As for Tatsuki and Mizuiro, I can se Tatsuki being developed, but of Ichigo's friends, I actually think Asano is the likely one to gain some powers.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]As for Tatsuki and Mizuiro, I can se Tatsuki being developed, but of Ichigo's friends, I actually think Asano is the likely one to gain some powers.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

That little doofus Asano. I could see him gaining some powers, too. Then, he could go off with Ikkaku and create all kinds of problems. Poor guy. He just seems to complicate things. That's what you get for trying to be buddies with everyone.

[Raiyuu]

There's definitely something going on with Keigo. It's been established he can see Shinigami now (which used to be a big deal - Ichigo was doing it before it became cool, but now everyone's doing it). But I'm pretty sure something's up with Mizuiro, too. I didn't notice especially in the manga, but the anime's made a big thing of his sudden distance from Keigo, and looking back, it is there in the manga too. He ignores Keigo a lot more than he used to, and calls him 'Asano-san' (pun! he's using 'keigo', or polite speech, to Keigo). Mizuiro seems like the kind of guy who, if he noticed something potentially dangerous developing inside himself - dangerous either in the sense of being destructive, or of drawing the attention of scary monsters - would, like Ichigo, put some distance between himself and his friends in order to insulate them from any trouble that could be coming.

Fingers crossed Mizuiro, Keigo and Tatsuki are all training in Urahara's basement right now.