Manga Bleach Manga [Warning: Spoilers]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']Fingers crossed Mizuiro, Keigo and Tatsuki are all training in Urahara's basement right now.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]God help Ichigo anyway, Tatsuki gave him enough of a beating without Shinigami powers, if she actually does develop some, I'm thinking 11th Squad might just have one more person who wants to fight Ichigo to the death every time she sees him.

Keigo and Mizuiro are definitely going to become the next Ikkaku and Yumichika-style team. ^_^[/SIZE]

[Solo Tremaine]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE=1]God help Ichigo anyway, Tatsuki gave him enough of a beating without Shinigami powers, if she actually does develop some, I'm thinking 11th Squad might just have one more person who wants to fight Ichigo to the death every time she sees him.[/QUOTE][/SIZE][COLOR=#503f86]Doesn't matter how powerful you are or what realm of existence you originate from, you can always be clobbered by a girl.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Solo Tremaine'][COLOR=#503f86]Doesn't matter how powerful you are or what realm of existence you originate from, you can always be clobbered by a girl.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]So true, Ichigo will return to the real world after finally beating Aizen in about a hundred or so chapters and Tatsuki will still kick the crap out of him.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]So true, Ichigo will return to the real world after finally beating Aizen in about a hundred or so chapters and Tatsuki will still kick the crap out of him.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Something he will [I]so[/I] deserve for being stupid and not just explaining himself to his friends, causing them to be worried sick about him. That boy needs a good kick to the head and I'm sure Tatsuki would be more than willing to deliver it. This just goes to show that you should never anger someone that you're not allowed to fight back against.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']Something he will [I]so[/I] deserve for being stupid and not just explaining himself to his friends, causing them to be worried sick about him. That boy needs a good kick to the head and I'm sure Tatsuki would be more than willing to deliver it. This just goes to show that you should never anger someone that you're not allowed to fight back against.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I actually couldn't disagree more, I think for Ichigo he didn't tell them because he was trying to protect them. Of his friends, the three with spiritual awareness have faced the prospect of death a few times now, and because Ichigo is more powerful than all of them, I just think it was his nature to try and protect them by not having them aware of what was going on in his life in case they tried to get involved.[/SIZE]

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]But at the same they already [i]know[/i] that something is up. For Ichigo to disappear without any explanation when they're aware of some degree of the situation is probably worse than them being spiritually dense and oblivious.[/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Solo Tremaine'][COLOR=#503F86]But at the same they already [i]know[/i] that something is up. For Ichigo to disappear without any explanation when they're aware of some degree of the situation is probably worse than them being spiritually dense and oblivious.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]True but Ichigo doesn't know that, or at least, doesn't seem to know it, and we all know how oblivious that boy can be sometimes. All he thinks is that after he brings back Orihime safely, he can explains everything to them properly as opposed to doing it beforehand, which would likely involve the three trying to accompany Ichigo and co, which in turn would likely lead to their deaths. At least, if I'm looking at it from Ichigo's correct perspective.

Also, I cannot wait to see Tatsuki react to Kon, that's only going to be hilarious.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]True but Ichigo doesn't know that, or at least, doesn't seem to know it, and we all know how oblivious that boy can be sometimes. All he thinks is that after he brings back Orihime safely, he can explains everything to them properly as opposed to doing it beforehand, which would likely involve the three trying to accompany Ichigo and co, which in turn would likely lead to their deaths. At least, if I'm looking at it from Ichigo's correct perspective.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I totally agree. Ichigo thinks he made the right choice not telling them. I'm not disputing that. I just know from personal experience that it is a far more cruel thing to leave someone knowing just a tiny bit of what is going on, as opposed to telling them everything but then forbidding they take action. I've been in both situations.

At one time, I could tell something was going on with my father, but my parents kept it secret for weeks. It drove me crazy; I was irritable and angry the whole time. When they finally told me about it after the problem had been resolved, they said they'd avoided telling me because they were afraid I would have taken action and gotten involved, further complicating things. Well, that simply made me more angry. It showed me that they didn't trust me to let those capable of handling the problem do it themselves. It called into question my loyalty to them and my belief in their better judgement.

That's what Ichigo is saying by leaving without explaining himself. His friends know good and well what their strengths are and it wouldn't take much of a demonstration for Ichigo to show them they'd be useless in trying to save Orihime. All he needed to do was tell them she was in trouble, show them he is a shinigami possessing great skill, and let them know he will handle it. That would be affording them the proper dignity and respect they deserve. Keeping people in the dark is selfish. It makes things easier for the one in the know, but that's all. What you don't know [I]can[/I] and often [I]does[/I] hurt you. If he let them in on everything, at least they could get acquainted with Urahara and perhaps learn how to protect themselves, or simply stay under his protection.

All in all, I side with Tatsuki. Ichigo deserves to be slapped even though he wouldn't see it that way.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']That's what Ichigo is saying by leaving without explaining himself. His friends know good and well what their strengths are and it wouldn't take much of a demonstration for Ichigo to show them they'd be useless in trying to save Orihime. All he needed to do was tell them she was in trouble, show them he is a shinigami possessing great skill, and let them know he will handle it. That would be affording them the proper dignity and respect they deserve. Keeping people in the dark is selfish. It makes things easier for the one in the know, but that's all. What you don't know [I]can[/I] and often [I]does[/I] hurt you. If he let them in on everything, at least they could get acquainted with Urahara and perhaps learn how to protect themselves, or simply stay under his protection.

All in all, I side with Tatsuki. Ichigo deserves to be slapped even though he wouldn't see it that way.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, and I can completely see where you're coming from with your point TC, but we all know how much Ichigo worries about his friends' safeties. I wouldn't call what Ichigo did selfish from his point of view, he's a very private person, remember with his mother ? He never said anything to anyone, just walked the bank for hours and hours, it was only by luck Tatsuki found out. This is the same thing, he didn't want to risk putting them in danger by involving them in what he perceives to be his mess.

Obviously yes it was selfish from Tatsuki's point of view, and the same for Asano and Mizuiro, because Ichigo had them worried about him and what was going on. Tatsuki was damn near heartbroken that he didn't seem to trust her any more, though I don't think that really fully clicked in Ichigo's mind. Despite being an elite Captain-level Shinigami, the boy still practically oblivious to other people, otherwise I'm pretty sure Byakuya would have a orange-haired niece or nephew irritating the hell out of him.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Yeah, and I can completely see where you're coming from with your point TC, but we all know how much Ichigo worries about his friends' safeties. I wouldn't call what Ichigo did selfish from his point of view, he's a very private person, remember with his mother ? He never said anything to anyone, just walked the bank for hours and hours, it was only by luck Tatsuki found out. This is the same thing, he didn't want to risk putting them in danger by involving them in what he perceives to be his mess.

Obviously yes it was selfish from Tatsuki's point of view, and the same for Asano and Mizuiro, because Ichigo had them worried about him and what was going on. Tatsuki was damn near heartbroken that he didn't seem to trust her any more, though I don't think that really fully clicked in Ichigo's mind. Despite being an elite Captain-level Shinigami, the boy still practically oblivious to other people, otherwise I'm pretty sure Byakuya would have a orange-haired niece or nephew irritating the hell out of him.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I don't think we've ever seen him act in a way that he would consider selfish. He [I]is[/I] always looking out for those around him. But, being the little social doofus that he is, he doesn't realize that trying to carry everything on your shoulders and not sharing the load with your friends [I][B]is selfish[/B][/I]. It puts them in the situation of watching you suffer and not knowing why. Friends are supposed to be there for each other, but it goes both ways. Both sides of the friendship need to believe they can be there for the other person, and if one keeps too much to himself...things can fall apart.

Too many people I know suffer in silence when, even if sharing the information wouldn't resolve the issue, it actually would comfort the person you turn to for help knowing that you're [I]willing[/I] to turn to them. Being willing to show yourself at your weakest, to express your anxieties and fears to someone else...that is a sign of true strength and maturity. If Ichigo could come to understand this and then do it himself, everyone around him would be much happier.

[Magus]

[COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="1"]Heh, chapters involving Ulquiorra, Byakuya, and Kenpachi fighting aside, the chapters involving Aizen explaining his intentions always seems to be the best chapters.

I wonder if Bleach is going to be coming to an end soon. (Not soon, but you know, this being the last arc.) This is that big winter war, and for Kubo to beat around the bush making extended arcs would just be pointless. Unless he throws one helluva bombshell, and have Aizen succeed in the [spoiler]destruction of Karakura town[/spoiler]. He is Superman (with a brain) afterall, so it is possible... I guess. :)

The chapters from this point onward are the ones that I'll hopefully enjoy.

Oh dear... Not Hitsugaya again...[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="1"]He is Superman (with a brain) afterall, so it is possible... I guess. :)[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Awesome, I'm not the only one who noticed that heh. His plans so far have been brilliantly laid out, even if it does turn out that he simply imprisoned four of the more useful captains, while the second part didn't go completely to plan.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="1"]Oh dear... Not Hitsugaya again...[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, but there are plenty of other captains there too, hopefully it won't focus on him too much.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]...there are plenty of other captains there too...[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

A little detail that has me wriggling with delight. ^^ I want to see what Ukitake and Kyoraku can do when push comes to shove. And finally some old man action. Sweet.

The whole "beginning" and "end" thing [I]could[/I] point to this being the last major thrust, though that "thrust" could take hundreds of chapters. I wonder how much more Kubo has in him...

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']And finally some old man action. Sweet. [/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]O_O

...Yeah, obviously you didn't mean it in that context TC, but still, I did a double-take before I realised what you'd meant there. Heh. ^_~[/SIZE]

[Raiyuu]

The more I think about it, the more I think Aizen could succeed in destroying Karakura and creating the Royal Key. I mean, the important characters would probably all evacuate in the nick of time (convenient Urahara Garganta portals?), but I doubt KT would have introduced the concept of the Royal Family, and their hidden realm within Soul Society, if he didn't intend to take us there at some point.

I mean, Aizen's just demonstrated, once again, his ability to think circles around everyone else in the series (perhaps bar Urahara). He's obviously confident he can deal with the Captains he's facing. The only things that might throw off his plan are the remaining members of the Rockin' Future Seven, and maybe Isshin. There's no way he doesn't know about the Vizard, he definitely knows about Urahara and Yoruichi (if only from Ulquiorra's eye-cam); if Grand Fisher was an experiment in Arrancar strength, it's a safe bet he was monitoring him, and that he knows about Isshin too. I can't believe that Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki, the only fighters Aizen may not have considered, are strong enough to tip the balance. At most they'll be ones to keep his eye on, like Ichigo after Soul Society.

Of course, it could be a different story if Grimmjow defects and opens our Hueco Mundo squad some portals into Karakura. He's presumably been lying there unconscious all through Ichigo vs Nnoitra and Kenpachi vs Nnoitra, and presumably heard Aizen's Tenteikuura tell everyone who's listening that he and the other Espada were a mere distraction, a decoy. Plus, who knows what'll happen when Ulquiorra pops back into reality?

Everything's in Aizen's favour, but there are just enough unknown elements to make me uncertain and excited about what comes next. Yay for KT curveballs.

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]O_O

...Yeah, obviously you didn't mean it in that context TC, but still, I did a double-take before I realised what you'd meant there. Heh. ^_~[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

You know, when I wrote that, I also wrote a disclaimer explaining how ill and exhausted I was, but then I deleted it. Maybe I should've left it in. ^^

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']The more I think about it, the more I think Aizen could succeed in destroying Karakura and creating the Royal Key. I mean, the important characters would probably all evacuate in the nick of time (convenient Urahara Garganta portals?), but I doubt KT would have introduced the concept of the Royal Family, and their hidden realm within Soul Society, if he didn't intend to take us there at some point.

I mean, Aizen's just demonstrated, once again, his ability to think circles around everyone else in the series (perhaps bar Urahara). He's obviously confident he can deal with the Captains he's facing. The only things that might throw off his plan are the remaining members of the Rockin' Future Seven, and maybe Isshin. There's no way he doesn't know about the Vizard, he definitely knows about Urahara and Yoruichi (if only from Ulquiorra's eye-cam); if Grand Fisher was an experiment in Arrancar strength, it's a safe bet he was monitoring him, and that he knows about Isshin too. I can't believe that Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki, the only fighters Aizen may not have considered, are strong enough to tip the balance. At most they'll be ones to keep his eye on, like Ichigo after Soul Society.

Of course, it could be a different story if Grimmjow defects and opens our Hueco Mundo squad some portals into Karakura. He's presumably been lying there unconscious all through Ichigo vs Nnoitra and Kenpachi vs Nnoitra, and presumably heard Aizen's Tenteikuura tell everyone who's listening that he and the other Espada were a mere distraction, a decoy. Plus, who knows what'll happen when Ulquiorra pops back into reality?

Everything's in Aizen's favour, but there are just enough unknown elements to make me uncertain and excited about what comes next. Yay for KT curveballs.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I think that's definitely a possibility, really only a handful of important characters have been established from Karakura and they're all either strong enough to take care of themselves, like Isshin and Ryuuken or they're under the care of characters who could take care of them such as Tatsuki's group.

Even if Karakura is destroyed though, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Orihime's rejection powers grow to the point she's able to reverse something as massive as the destruction of a city. As often as it's said her abilities far surpass that of any human, you'd have to wonder is there more to her than meets the eye.

As from Grimmjow's side-switching, I wouldn't rule it out by a long shot. He's never had the same level of respect or reverence as displayed by other Espada, and Ichigo has always been of more interest to him than Shinigami at large, similar enough to Kenpachi actually. Heck, maybe 11th Squad's Captain is going to get a new pet kitty with this arc. ^_^[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Heck, maybe 11th Squad's Captain is going to get a new pet kitty with this arc. ^_^[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Kenpachi and Grimmjow fighting side by side would be quite a sight. Even if there was a tenuous alliance formed, I wonder who'd be the first to snap and provoke the other to a fight. Two egos that size couldn't help but rub each other the wrong way, well actually, to them, it might be considered the 'right way' if it leads to conflict. ^^ I think it would be an interesting twist to see the current #6 jump the fence. He has the potential to turn traitor; perhaps he will. Of course, then you always have to worry about him turning back...

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']Kenpachi and Grimmjow fighting side by side would be quite a sight. Even if there was a tenuous alliance formed, I wonder who'd be the first to snap and provoke the other to a fight. Two egos that size couldn't help but rub each other the wrong way, well actually, to them, it might be considered the 'right way' if it leads to conflict. ^^ I think it would be an interesting twist to see the current #6 jump the fence. He has the potential to turn traitor; perhaps he will. Of course, then you always have to worry about him turning back...[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I'd actually think Grimmjow and Kenpachi would get on really well with one another because they're so similar, and of course they both want to beat/kill Itachi for defeating them beforehand. But it would be seriously interesting to see him switch sides, either to Ichigo's or to to the 11th directly, as I don't imagine the Gotei 13 will be too welcoming to Espada members.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]...and of course they both want to beat/kill Itachi for defeating them beforehand...[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. ^^

About them getting along...they'd definitely have things in common, and I just think that both of them having such a strong urge to battle might nudge them into taking advantage of that. I don't think they'd [I]kill[/I] each other...more like just spar, finding it ideal to have the other one right there and willing to participate. I mean, whenever two people absolutely adore one thing and they find themselves together, it's hard for them not to bring that topic up.

I [I]really[/I] would like to see Mr. Feral 'shinigami-up'. Kubo...? ...are you listening?

[Raiyuu]

There's no way Soul Society would accept Grimmjow as an ally. Any Hollow influence is an automatic red card - remember the Vizard are exiled for precisely that reason? We won't see him joining a squad, but I can definitely see him helping out as part of Ichigo's ever-growing ryoka gang.

I was dead against the idea of a Grimmjow defection when I first saw it on the horizon (when Ichigo first protected him from Nnoitra, very similarly to how he healed Ikkaku after their first fight). I didn't think it fit at all with KT's concept of Hollows as feral, instinctual, and the natural enemy of the Shinigami. But since then we've had some really interesting philosophy from (ugh) Zommari, about how unfair it is for Shinigami to just slap Hollows with the 'evil' label and hunt them down without mercy, and from (yay) Neriel, about how the reason for removing their masks and accepting hybridisation was to gain exactly the kind of higher reasoning that would allow Grimmjow to switch sides.

On a completely different note, I was thinking the other day that the Shinigami aren't actually very good at their jobs. Their purpose is to cleanse Hollows in order to maintain the balance between Soul Society and the Material World, right? But there are millions on billions of Hollows in Hueco Mundo. Aaroniero was 33,000 Hollows all by himself, and I have to assume since he was a Gillian and all the other Espada are Adjuchas or above, that each one of them contains even more Hollows than he did. Then take the Vasto Lordes, which must be a million or so Hollows each. Soul Society's looking increasingly lazy!

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']There's no way Soul Society would accept Grimmjow as an ally. Any Hollow influence is an automatic red card - remember the Vizard are exiled for precisely that reason? We won't see him joining a squad, but I can definitely see him helping out as part of Ichigo's ever-growing ryoka gang.

I was dead against the idea of a Grimmjow defection when I first saw it on the horizon (when Ichigo first protected him from Nnoitra, very similarly to how he healed Ikkaku after their first fight). I didn't think it fit at all with KT's concept of Hollows as feral, instinctual, and the natural enemy of the Shinigami. But since then we've had some really interesting philosophy from (ugh) Zommari, about how unfair it is for Shinigami to just slap Hollows with the 'evil' label and hunt them down without mercy, and from (yay) Neriel, about how the reason for removing their masks and accepting hybridisation was to gain exactly the kind of higher reasoning that would allow Grimmjow to switch sides.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Heh, I was kidding about Grimmjow joining the 11th, obviously they're anti-Hollow policies aren't going to change any time soon. Him joining Ichigo though, I don't know, I just can't see him doing that, mainly because Grimm seems too cool to just become another ryoka, who knows though. Hollows have definitely become more interesting in the last while, that for sure. Poor Zommari, if not for his absolutely crap released form, I think he might have been one of my favourite Espada.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Raiyuu']On a completely different note, I was thinking the other day that the Shinigami aren't actually very good at their jobs. Their purpose is to cleanse Hollows in order to maintain the balance between Soul Society and the Material World, right? But there are millions on billions of Hollows in Hueco Mundo. Aaroniero was 33,000 Hollows all by himself, and I have to assume since he was a Gillian and all the other Espada are Adjuchas or above, that each one of them contains even more Hollows than he did. Then take the Vasto Lordes, which must be a million or so Hollows each. Soul Society's looking increasingly lazy![/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]That's a very good point actually Stu, the only thing I can think that might explain it is that from what we've seen from the latest chapter, Shinigami can't just break through into Hueco Mundo the same way that Hollows can into the Real World and Soul Society, so obviously they can only hit the Hollows which enter the real world, who seem to be the weakest of them all, judging by Rukia's reaction to the arrival of a Menos at the start of the series.[/SIZE]

[Magus]

[quote name='Raiyuu']I can't believe that Keigo, Mizuiro and Tatsuki, the only fighters Aizen may not have considered, are strong enough to tip the balance. At most they'll be ones to keep his eye on, like Ichigo after Soul Society.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR="DarkRed"][SIZE="1"]Speaking of those 3, I'm curious to know what kind of power Keigo has acquired, if he's acquired any at all. The guy is too wimpy and idiotic to do any type of fighting, but he is overly hyper, so I guess that should count for something.

"Re-reads older chapters"[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='Gavin']Poor Zommari, if not for his absolutely crap released form, I think he might have been one of my favourite Espada.[/quote]Can you believe I had that guy tipped as Espada #1? Man, he was disappointing. Go go Senbonzakura.

Side note: I'm not Stu, I'm Matt. :animeswea

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu']Side note: I'm not Stu, I'm Matt. :animeswea[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]*Bangs head off desk* ^_^;

Apparently I've been thinking you were someone else all along Raiyuu, sorry about that.

*Bangs head off desk again*

Moving swiftly on, even if I know someone who'll never let me forget this. I actually had Zommari tipped as one of the top three, but even if he wasn't, he was still pretty interesting for a Hollow.[/SIZE]