Manga Bleach Manga [Warning: Spoilers]

[Botar]

So what if Orihime gets hurt, power ups are fun, and Ulquiorra, dose look like a joke.

[Magus]

[quote name='botar15']So what if Orihime gets hurt, power ups are fun, and Ulquiorra, dose look like a joke.[/QUOTE]
Power ups can be fun, for a little while... Not when it's for the same character though. Nor is it fun to see it repeating.

[Botar]

Thats true, but what were they thinking when they did the power up for Ulquirra? Looks like a Drag, if you know what I mean :)

[Gavin]

[quote name='Magus']Power ups can be fun, for a little while... Not when it's for the same character though. Nor is it fun to see it repeating.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I agree somewhat with this. To a great extent the Hueco Mundo arc has just been Soul Society with a few twists but ultimately the same format. Ichigo versus Grimmjow could be described accurately in my mind as a repeat of his fight with Kenpachi in style, moving on then he has to get a whole new power-up to deal with Ulquiorra in much the same way his bankai and shunpo training were necessary to defeat Byakuya, both of whom paused half way through their fight to unleash a second, and then third (complete) form.

My biggest fault is that back when Ulquiorra and Ichigo met for the first time Ulquiorra himself openly admitted that there were times when Ichigo's power spiked higher than his although he doesn't elabourate whether this is pre or post resurrecion. That should mean that when Ichigo finally suppressed his inner-Hollow as he is supposed to have done he should have been more powerful than Ulquiorra (perhaps not by much but still enough to fight and beat him). Basically compare to Ichigo who had a tough time with Renji and then went on to wipe the floor with 3 lieutenants bare handed after his power-up. Taking that logic the same thing effectively should've happened with Grimmjow but somehow his power-up is taking longer, and longer to take effect.

As much as I wanted to see these fights the fact that they're becoming just rehashes of older ones is a bit meh in my mind.

[/SIZE]

[Magus]

That's also what I meant by repeat.

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]My biggest fault is that back when Ulquiorra and Ichigo met for the first time Ulquiorra himself openly admitted that there were times when Ichigo's power spiked higher than his although he doesn't elabourate whether this is pre or post resurrecion. That should mean that when Ichigo finally suppressed his inner-Hollow as he is supposed to have done he should have been more powerful than Ulquiorra (perhaps not by much but still enough to fight and beat him).[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I think a lot of people have been doing that too. I tossed what Ulquiorra said out the window pretty much as soon as he revealed himself to be #4. (Actually, right after not taking any damage from Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho) I'm of the opinion he meant pre-release instead of post.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Magus']That's also what I meant by repeat.

I think a lot of people have been doing that too. I tossed what Ulquiorra said out the window pretty much as soon as he revealed himself to be #4. (Actually, right after not taking any damage from Ichigo's Getsuga Tensho) I'm of the opinion he meant pre-release instead of post.[/QUOTE]
[SIZE="1"]
The problem I have with him talking about his pre-release state is that most characters when they talk about their power refer to their full ability, i.e. when Ichigo talks about his strength he means Vizard Bankai as opposed to his sword's regular Shikai form. Sure there's the possibility that Ulquiorra was just talking about his regular power he normally has access to as the comment was more of an observation than a definitive statement but it just seemed a bit off that he's say something and it wouldn't be true.[/SIZE]

[Magus]

I don't know. I think the problem is that people are reading too much into that one statement made by Ulquiorra. I think it's already been proven that Ichigo is a bit stronger than Ulquiorra with his mask and without Ulquiorra releasing. People are overestimating Ichigo with that statement and automatically placing Ichigo as superior or equal to Ulquiorra.

The way I see this is like this. Ulquiorra is to Nnoitra (and others below him) is like what Aizen is to Komamura/Hitsugaya (Light years above them). This is only speculation though.

And then while I'm thinking about it now, and I've stated it before. I think people are giving way too much credit to Ichigo's bankai. Sure it gave him a powerup, but I don't think it gave him that boost people are over exaggerating him to have. (And this is also why I believe Byakuya vs Kenpachi would end in a draw.) Byakuya stated something about Ichigo's bankai condensing his spiritual pressure to increase his speed.. (not the exact words) Untill the end of that fight Ichigo didn't do any damage to Byakuya. (And his hollow is what caused the damage) Grimmjow stated that Ichigo's bankai increases his speed. Sure, Getsuga got through, but it was nothing pretty much. [/rant] Had to get that off my chest.

[Botar]

I agree with you (Magus) to an extent. Ichigo is stronger with the hollow mask when Ulquiorra has'nt transformed, but thats a what if stament, Ichigo vs. Ulquiorra is a tough battle to choose sides on, who would win now that they have the masks and transformations and what not? I have to go with Ichigo, omly because he's the main character and is least likely to die, but yet this is one mans thoughts on such a large matter.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Magus']And then while I'm thinking about it now, and I've stated it before. I think people are giving way too much credit to Ichigo's bankai. Sure it gave him a powerup, but I don't think it gave him that boost people are over exaggerating him to have. (And this is also why I believe Byakuya vs Kenpachi would end in a draw.) Byakuya stated something about Ichigo's bankai condensing his spiritual pressure to increase his speed.. (not the exact words) Untill the end of that fight Ichigo didn't do any damage to Byakuya. (And his hollow is what caused the damage) Grimmjow stated that Ichigo's bankai increases his speed. Sure, Getsuga got through, but it was nothing pretty much. [/rant] Had to get that off my chest.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Have to disagree with you about Ichigo's bankai being actually less-credit than its given. True it's primary function is to give Ichigo a gigantic speed boost (to the point where Byakuya had difficulty just keeping up with him) and make his cleaver-like shikai into a much more usable daito. But taking these facts together it basically transforms him from being a powerhouse bruiser like Kenpachi (or Komamura if you go by the databooks) into a warrior who's capable of channelling all that immense power into direct, precise and very bloody fast attacks.

The point about his fight against Byakuya doesn't really stand, in fairness Ichigo had just (literally hours beforehand) attained both his bankai and mastered shunpo and then set himself against one of the more powerful captains who was also a master of shunpo. The fact Ichigo didn't die in the first ten seconds from simply a lack of experience at fighting at that kind of speed, as well as the fact he was pulling his punches (never intended to kill Byakuya, only beat him) speaks volumes about his ability. It was only his own lack of knowledge about the effects of his bankai beat him in the end and forced his Hollow to take over.

I mean what I find the most difficult is that Grimmjow took on Bankai Ichigo (at what we assume to have been above his Soul Society ability) barehanded, kicked the crap out of him not once but twice (though the second was a lack of energy) before being defeated by Vizard Bankai Ichigo after a severely protracted battle. Then two captains he's beaten before (and thus we assume have lower ability than him) just using his previous strength whiz in and one outfights an opponent stronger than the one Ichigo just nearly died fighting (and if not for trying to enjoy the fight would likely have killed him earlier) while the other utterly outmanoeuvres the 7th Espada to the point where it looks like he's not even trying.

Either Soul Society never intended to kill Ichigo or the captains themselves have received a big power-up since the Soul Society Arc.[/SIZE]

[Magus]

What I'm saying about Ichigo's bankai is that people are making it seem like his bankai is giving him this big power boost. (Like his bankai = a SSJ powerup or something.) And I don't believe that be accurate at all. If his bankai give's him that kind of power boost, he should've been able to beat both Grimmjow and Nnoitra. (without his mask) Not to mention that he should be able to beat Kenpachi without his mask.

But seeing how he and Ichigo drawed (he's already at captain level here), and Ichigo couldn't do a thing against either espada while in bankai, it leads to me to believe that his bankai don't give him that boost that people are claiming that he's getting. I mean if you think about it, Ichigo was already as strong as Kenpachi without a bankai... (In effect Byakuya drawed against Ichigo in bankai... IT ENDED IN A DRAW. I don't care what Byakuya told him. XD Which technically says that Byakuya with his bankai and Kenpachi are equals.) If his bankai gave him that big power boost people are claiming, then he should be stronger than both old man Yama and Aizen. The hollow mask would make him the strongest in the universe.... "coughs"

As for Byakuya... I could counter that by saying Byakuya had just finished dominating Renji XD so it's an even playing field, but I'll give you that one. But as far as pulling punches... err... You can say both were pulling punches in the first 10 minutes or so. Ichigo being his cockyself while Byakuya was analyzing. But with that said, we agree about Ichigo being stupid (lack of knowledge and whatnot haha..)

[quote name='Gavin][size=1]Then two captains he's beaten before (and thus we assume have lower ability than him)[/size'] Hey... They drawed!!! XD[/quote]

There are specualtions that the captains had received a huge power up. I would imagine so, but a huge power up like that in the matter of a month? (That's like that Time Chamber) Then again, who knows what they were doing when Ichigo first met Shinji and stuff.

Edit: Botar, agreed, but at the same time, when you retreat like that, it kind of tells me that he knows he's the one that's at the disadvantage.

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]Well, they did say they'd 'prepare' for the war against Aizen. Whatever that entailed o_o;

Latest spoilers: [spoiler]Ichigo gets it through the chest by Ulquorria just as Orihime reaches the top of the dome[/spoiler].[/COLOR]

[Botar]

[Ace move] You guys and you're excessive arguing over Ichigo's total strength with or without mask. Oh, and heres a clip. (Oh wait, I don't have a clip, damn it!)

Edit. Oh, and nice Dragon Ball Z reference there Magus, it made my day. :)

[Magus]

Excessive arguing.... I see nothing of the sort. If anything, we're just having a friendly discussion. A good ol' fashion discussion to keep the thread alive and active... well, sort of. (This is the OB afterall. We strive on discussion.)

If you want to blame someone for the long essay-like posts, blame Kubo for not making any of this stuff clear. (CURSE YOU KUBO!!! XD)

Edit: As for the latest spoiler. I swear, Ichigo is forever getting stabbed in the chest. He needs to start wearing some type of chest protector or something since he can't block attacks coming to the chest area.

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]Agreed, just coming back here and going "Oh interesting plot development this week" wouldn't really make for any kind of conversation in this thread. A small bit of discussion on the manga's story (and yes even it's plot holes) might allow us to see something we hadn't seen before, or hadn't realised that might explain something going on currently.

Having read this week's chapter though the one statement that comes to mind was Shirosaki's "If you want to control my power don't get killed before I reappear." Guess we'll find out next week whether the Horse will make his reappearance.[/SIZE]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Oh, Ichigo now has a large, gaping hole in his chest.

No points for guessing where this is going. ;)[/FONT]

[Solo Tremaine]

[quote name='Magus']He needs to start wearing some type of chest protector or something since he can't block attacks coming to the chest area.[/quote][COLOR=#503F86]That's normally what his Hollow mask does.

[quote name='Ace][FONT=Comic Sans MS']No points for guessing where this is going.[/FONT][/quote]*waves hands around* Ooh, pick me, I want no points! [spoiler]DOES WE MEANS ICHIGO GOES FULL HOLLOW LOLOLOL???!?!?11[/spoiler][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Ace'][FONT="Comic Sans MS"]Oh, Ichigo now has a large, gaping hole in his chest.

No points for guessing where this is going. ;)[/FONT][/QUOTE]
[SIZE="1"]
According to the more insistent fans "that blast would have blown through his lungs, heart and spinal cord he's got to be dead" neglecting to remember that souls don't necessarily have the same anatomy as the living. "You think that's air you're breathing now ?" comes to mind.

Either way I'd rather see Isshin and Ryuuken come in to kick some *** rather than Shirosaki.
[/SIZE]

[red tigress]

Didn't Ichigo already get a hole blown through his chest the first time he fought Ulquiorra before Grimmjow intervened?

What I want to know, is where the hell are Renji and Chad, they could have at least come to watch, offering such unsolicited opinions like "Oh no! We have to believe in Ichigo! Wow, that Ulquiorra's tough!" type of thing.

[Botar]

Yeah! good thinking Red Tigress, Renji, *Gay Lover* would be at his side and Chad would say nothing. Oh, and i missed this part in the manga a wile ago and never went back to look; Is the Quince dead?

Oh, and if the Renji being gay comment offended you, get over it because he's a fictional character in a manga thats getting really confusing, so, yah.
I'm actually sorry if it did offend you.:grumble:

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]O...k... moving on from the question of Renji's sexual orientation Chad and the 6th Division Vice Captain are currently battling enemies at the base of the tower with Rukia if memories serve correctly and therefore are probably unable to come to Ichigo's aid (and probably wouldn't be any help anyway).[/SIZE]

[Magus]

I don't even think the folks in this thread really care about Renji's sexuality, let alone care about the character himself, but at the same time it's really irrelevant.

As for the Quincy.. Are you talking about Uryuu or the Quincies in general, botar15? Because Uryuu's alive and kicking. Standing there with Orihime, well, that's the last time I saw him anyway.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Magus']As for the Quincy.. Are you talking about Uryuu or the Quincies in general, botar15? Because Uryuu's alive and kicking. Standing there with Orihime, well, that's the last time I saw him anyway.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Indeed though based on this week's spoilers [spoiler]he's managed to lose a hand trying to buy time for Orihime to heal Ichigo...unfortunately the latter appears to be undergoing Hollowification again. Cue Shirosaki's return[/spoiler] at the end of the chapter.

[/SIZE]

[The Spectacular Professor]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Indeed though based on this week's spoilers [spoiler]he's managed to lose a hand trying to buy time for Orihime to heal Ichigo...unfortunately the latter appears to be undergoing Hollowification again. Cue Shirosaki's return[/spoiler] at the end of the chapter.

[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[FONT="Comic Sans MS"][spoiler]Aww, the fight's getting interrupted again to heal him up? That's kind of what happens every time.

Now what I was hoping for was that hole in his chest to activate some kind of hollow-based survival mechanism or stage 2 powerup mid-battle. It would have been kind of predictable, but better than Ichigo just straight up getting his butt handed to him yet again. Besides, what unwritten shonen law says you can't discover a new power without training hard? They do it in the middle of fights in [I]Fairy Tail.[/I]

Though it looks like I was half right with the chestal gap prediction.[/spoiler][/FONT]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Ace'][FONT="Comic Sans MS"][spoiler]Aww, the fight's getting interrupted again to heal him up? That's kind of what happens every time.[/spoiler][/FONT][/QUOTE]
[SIZE="1"]
[spoiler][I]Try[/I] to heal him. By the looks of things it's not going to work. She had immense difficulty trying to reverse the wound the last time Ulquiorra did this and that was pre-Resurrecion, Lord knows she's going to need some truly epic willpower to do it this time. Besides given Ulquiorra dealt with the Quincy in rather quick fashion I doubt she's going to get the chance to finish the job.[/spoiler][/SIZE]

[Solo Tremaine]

[COLOR=#503F86]I'm glad I skipped most of the Bount arc of the anime. They made Ishida really annoying. The manga gives him a much better portrayal.[/COLOR]