Manga Bleach Manga [Warning: Spoilers]

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']One thing I don't think he would ever do is underestimate someone. Case in point: Aizen sent Ulquiorra and Yami to kill Ichigo, knowing him to be a threat; Ulquiorra determined he [I]wasn't[/I] a threat, and left him alive. Whose judgement was correct? [/quote]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Ulquiorra as I recall was sent to gauge Ichigo's strength to see if he would become a threat to Aizen and eliminate him if he was, so although Ulquiorra chose to not bother killing Ichigo, the judgement was Aizen's in the end. Ulquiorra himself as a fanatical loyalty to Aizen, so I don't see him doing anything that would potentially put his master in danger.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[quote name='TwistedChick']That being said, how many and which Shinigami do you believe 1. it would take to soundly but not overwhelmingly defeat him? and 2. will actually end up in the final showdown against him? Just wondering your opinions.[/quote]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][B]1][/B] This is the thing about Aizen, his zanpakutou really makes it hard to gauge his actual strength, and all his fights so far have been against opponents who were in some ways already injured.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][B]Captain Komamura[/B] - Had just fought Kenpachi, and we all know, to even survive a fight against him will drain an opponent severely. Aizen uses his illusionary skills to deflect Komamura's attention for a moment before striking him with the Black Coffin kidou spell. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]The one accurate aspect to Aizen's strength comes from this fight, as he uses an 90th level Kido spell without the incantation, something which Gin comments on as being impressive, though by Aizen's own admission, he only got a third of the full power out of it.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][B]Ichigo[/B] - Had just come toe-to-toe with Byakuya in a fight which pushed him too and passed his limits. Given Ichigo couldn't even stand after it, unless Orihime healed him a bit before the fight, I think the whole blocking his bankai with one finger might not be as impressive as it seemed at the time.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][B]Renji[/B] - Similar to Ichigo, Renji was already injured before the fight having fought Byakuya and taken a direct strike from his bankai, I know Captain Unohana healed the majority of his injuries, and Hanatarou finished what she had left, but even at the execution we see him fall to one knee after just fighting off those Kidou Shinigami. So again, the impressiveness of his victory over Renji is debatable.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][B]Captain Hitsugaya[/B] - Used his shikai illusion, caught the younger captain off-guard, practically cut him in half. Again, not exactly a masterful display of kenjutsu, but to be able to inflict that level of damage on a fellow captain using bankai is impressive.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]As well as that, he leaves before having to face other senior captains like Yamamoto, Ukitake or Kyouraku who are relatively uninjured. This could simply be prudent planning, or he really isn't as strong as he let's himself on to be.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Now evidence that he is as powerful as he claims comes from his time in Hueco Mundo. [/SIZE][/FONT]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]He shows that a person with twice the reiatsu of a captain can activate the Hyougokou, point one in his favour.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Point two, he drops Grimmjow to one knee by just releasing his reiatsu in his direction, similar to what Yamamoto did to Nanao.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST][LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]The Espada follow him, who are made up of some Vasto Lordes, and I can't see a group of Hollow, who are described by Hitsugaya as being stronger than the average Shinigami captain as following him unless he was more powerful than him. And we know that being turned into Arrancar apparently makes them more powerful than they were already, or at least gives them a greater ability to fight effectively.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]All in all, Aizen is powerful yes, very powerful, but how he stacks against other captains has yet to be proven conclusively in my eyes.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][B]2][/B] Hmm, it falls between two people in the end, Yamamoto or Ichigo. I'd like to see Jii-san fight at full power, but it'll probably be Ichigo who fights him in the end.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[TwistedChick]

I'm assuming you did a tad of research to bring up some of those points, but if not, you have far better recall than I do. My hat comes off to you.

My deal with Aizen sending Ulquiorra is really quite simple. He had enough sense to suspect that Ichigo would grow into someone stronger than any other captain (because, after all, if his suspicion was simply that Ichigo was captain-class or high-level captain-class, why treat him as different from any other captain, none of which Aizen ordered an assassination on?), and simply based on that suspicion, Ulquiorra should have killed him. By leaving without finishing him off, it was as if he was saying, "Coming here was a waste of time. There is no way this guy will ever prove a threat to us." Well, it's hard to believe Aizen would be such a bad judge of potential that he would order something that'd turn out to have been completely useless. Not to mention, we as the reader know good and well that Ichigo will indeed be a threat, probably if not certainly facing off against Aizen in the end, so his perceptions were correct. All I'm saying is that Aizen sent men who would have been capable of killing him, and [I]they[/I] so underestimated Ichigo as to leave him alive. If Ichigo truly was as patheic as Ulquiorra believed, Aizen would have been a fool for even suggesting he could prove a threat. And we know that Aizen is no fool.

As for our ability to judge Aizen's current strength, I agree that nothing we say can be proven or certain since he hasn't by any means gone all out against someone, but I think we can go as far as to say he is stronger than any of the current captains, and probably stronger than the two weakest of them combined. Why do I say this? Partially due to his suspicion of Ichigo, but also because all the other captains bought it when he supposedly died. Being able to so utterly conceal one's now proven monstrous strength is a big tell when it comes to how skilled and powerful someone is, especially when the people around that person are of an extremely high level themselves, people who are of the ability to sense even the most minute hint of reiatsu. He had them so utterly fooled that they believed initially a mere ryoka may have been capable of his murder. True, some of them suspected other captains of this act, but that doesn't change the fact that they all believed he was weak enough to fall, seemingly without a struggle. The courtyard he "died" in was undamaged, leading everyone to believe he'd been swiftly and thoroughly defeated. If any of those other captains had even the least bit of confidence in his ability to put up fight, they would have instantly doubted his death. Even if it was a sneak attack or an unexpected betrayal that befell him, any other captain would have managed at least a single attack in self-defense, leaving evidence of a struggle, not just an immaculate courtyard.

We get the feeling that even though all the other captains haven't necessarily fought full-strength against each other, they have a pretty good understanding of how powerful the other is. The only one that seems to be a bit hard to gauge is Kenpachi, as shown in his battle with Komamura and Tousen. They didn't initially believe it would be so difficult against him. What I'm saying is that Aizen was grossly underestimated by his fellow captains. The only way for a captain to be able to underestimate another to that degree is if the one being underestimated is leaps and bounds beyond anything they would ever have expected.

My claim that Aizen could take on two of the less-skilled captains is based on Yamamoto's standoff with Kyoraku and Ukitake (and no, I'm not dissing them or calling into question their rights to be captains). Though we didn't really get to see much, it appeared that Yamamoto could very well have been a match for those two. That being said, I believe Aizen has been hinted at wielding power beyond that of Yamamoto, or at least on par. As always, this can't be substantially proven, since only a battle between the two would definitively settle that question. But, by putting everything together, I believe we can conclude that Aizen could take on Kyoraku and Ukitake himself. I'd be willing to bet he could battle evenly with Komamura teamed with Soifon, especially if he could muster full-power out of his kidou spells, but that's utter and complete speculation.

I guess I'm trying to say that in my mind, it would [I]definitely[/I] take two or more captains to defeat him, with the exception of Ichigo, who, as the main protagonist and one Aizen was worried about, is the wild card that could trump all. At least that's how this story had better work, or we're being misled, I tell you.

I've blathered for long enough ([I]quite[/I] long enough). Don't be overly concerned with picking apart my claims. After all, I've said plenty of times what others have said: We won't know until we see it.

I just hope we really do see it.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']I'm assuming you did a tad of research to bring up some of those points, but if not, you have far better recall than I do. My hat comes off to you.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Mostly recall, helped by the fact I watched the Byakuya/Ichigo fight again a few days ago.

I disagree with a lot of what you actually said, but I wasn't going to go dissecting your post because as you said, neither of us can really be proven right until the final showdown actually occurs.

Thoughts on whether or not Aizen has transformed himself into a Vaizard ?[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Thoughts on whether or not Aizen has transformed himself into a Vaizard ?[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

It could explain a bit, though that alone wouldn't impact his ability to fool everyone, nor would it aid him when forcing others into submission using his reiatsu. After all, it's evident that until a vaizard actually calls on those powers and puts on their mask, their standard walking-around power isn't affected. But, it would also support my reading of Aizen's thoughts of Ichigo. If he had turned Vaizard, he'd have more reason than anyone to wonder whether this new "recruit" would do the same. Or, it could be that just as the other Vaizards could tell Ichigo was transforming, he picked up on it as well. Either way, it would be an interesting development. It would also lead to an even more impressive showdown between the two, something any mangaka would salivate over.


Would you mind mentioning just one of my thoughts you've taken exception to? You seem to have a bit (and by that I mean a lot) of knowledge of specific going-ons within the world of bleach, so perhaps you could bring something to my attention I hadn't thought of before. To tell the truth, I only started reading the manga after getting caught up with the anime during the Bound arc, and since at times the anime takes certain liberties and expands on things from the way they are portrayed in the manga, my viewpoint could be skewed. Enlighten me, if you would (and I don't mean that as a challenge, I'm serious about wanting to get things straight in my head).

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']It could explain a bit, though that alone wouldn't impact his ability to fool everyone, nor would it aid him when forcing others into submission using his reiatsu. After all, it's evident that until a vaizard actually calls on those powers and puts on their mask, their standard walking-around power isn't affected. But, it would also support my reading of Aizen's thoughts of Ichigo. If he had turned Vaizard, he'd have more reason than anyone to wonder whether this new "recruit" would do the same. Or, it could be that just as the other Vaizards could tell Ichigo was transforming, he picked up on it as well. Either way, it would be an interesting development. It would also lead to an even more impressive showdown between the two, something any mangaka would salivate over.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, I admit, I think he probably is a vaizard himself already, though not as long as Ichigo or the others. When he gave his big speech about transcending past his limits by breaking through the boundaries between a shinigami and a hollow, I pretty much made the assumption he was talking about becoming a vaizard. Then when he got his hands on the hyougokyou it only made sense he'd use it on himself, and likely Gin and Tousen too.

As you said, it would be an interesting aspect to Aizen's eventual showdown with Ichigo. [/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']Would you mind mentioning just one of my thoughts you've taken exception to? You seem to have a bit (and by that I mean a lot) of knowledge of specific going-ons within the world of bleach, so perhaps you could bring something to my attention I hadn't thought of before. To tell the truth, I only started reading the manga after getting caught up with the anime during the Bound arc, and since at times the anime takes certain liberties and expands on things from the way they are portrayed in the manga, my viewpoint could be skewed. Enlighten me, if you would (and I don't mean that as a challenge, I'm serious about wanting to get things straight in my head).[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Don't worry about it, I actually did the same thing, I watched as far as the beginning of the Bount Arc and then just read the manga from then on. I do intend to go back at some point and actually read the manga from the beginning, apparently the anime sticks fairly close to it.

As for what I disagreed with, it's not really based on any knowledge of the specific goings-on in the Bleach universe, more so just the way I percieve the characters themselves. Like for instance, I don't see Aizen in the same way you do, though we've established that already. ^_^'

I actually agree with you about the captains not knowing one another's actual limits of power, which was made plain really as you said in the Tousen/Komamura/Kenpachi fight. It's quite similar to how Izuru mentions that most of the vice-captains aren't aware of one another's shikai abilities, they have no reason to know unless they know the other lieutenant personally.

With Aizen though, I just can't picture him as being Yamamoto's equal in terms of power, simply because if he was, I don't think he'd have needed to use the scheme he did to get the hyougokyou. He's very powerful for a captain, I'm not debating that at all, I think he falls definitely in the top three or four but the thing about his skills is really we're not sure how they measure up to other captains.

For instance, Aizen's own lieutenant Hinamori is regarded as a "kidou master", which I would assume means she has mastered all the different kidou, and Urahara's assistant Tessai equally uses a Level 90 kidou without any incantation. Byakuya likewise uses powerful a Level 80 kidou with no incantation and even Rukia uses a double-kidou made of two Level 60 kidou despite her own strength falling into the lieutenant category.

Actually, really, we don't even know what a captain's skills really encompass in terms of power, so it makes it even harder to gauge Aizen's accurately. I think that the problem is the captains of the Gotei 13 each have their own speciality where they're superior over the other captains, where as the Espada are simply ranked in terms of power, making comparisons easier, i.e. Nnoitra < Ulquiorra < Stark, where as we only really know the other twelve captains < Yamamoto.

I see Aizen as primarily a schemer of Palpatine's level, he's able to manipulate events years in advance to suit his goals, while being able to cast himself in a completely benign light to avoid any kind of suspicion. As you pointed out, he must have been seen as potentially weak in that they suspected one of the ryoka would be able to kill him without a fight, with his own zanpakutou.

I don't think he's actually worried by Ichigo as much as he is intrigued by him, or rather by his growth level, as in the space of a few months he went from a normal soul, to an elite-captain level shinigami. For Aizen, someone obsessed with transcending his own barriers, I think Ichigo is more a source of interest to him rather than a source of danger. Ulquiorra was the one I think who said that the Hollow follow Aizen because he has no fear, and for creatures born of fear, that inspires their loyalty.

Lately however, I see Aizen as either having another scheme in place which guarantees his safety, or he's becoming blind to the dangers facing him in much the same way Palpatine was himself killed for underestimating his opponents. After all, he's already lost three Espada, four if you count Grimmjow having the crap beaten out of him, and yet he acts as if there's nothing wrong at all.

What that ultimately alludes to, whether his Yamamoto-par strength or simply another scheme, we don't know.

I'm just curious, do you eventually see Isshin and Ryuuken showing up in Hueco Mundo ? I'd love to see Ichigo's face when he realises his father is potentially his equal if not stronger than him.

It's actually really nice to have someone else to discuss Bleach with, usually this thread is almost completely dead except for two or three posts around the new chapters.[/SIZE]

[Magus]

[quote name='Gavin'][LIST][*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]The Espada follow him, who are made up of some Vasto Lordes, and I can't see a group of Hollow, who are described by Hitsugaya as being stronger than the average Shinigami captain as following him unless he was more powerful than him. And we know that being turned into Arrancar apparently makes them more powerful than they were already, or at least gives them a greater ability to fight effectively.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST][/QUOTE]
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Err. This sorta goes back to me stating that Hitsugaya has overrated the arrancar, or he's the weakest captain.. (or doesn't deserve his title as captain.. Something like that.) Depending on how this fight between Kenpachi and Nnoitora turns out (whether it's over too quickly or not.) before I start saying that the 1st four (five maybe..) espadas are Vasto Lordes.

I don't know if I'd say Aizen is a Vaizard or not. (Not agreeing or disagreeing, I just don't know.) He knows a good deal about Vaizard stuff, so it is a possibility, and that's about as far as I'll go for speculating lol. Still haven't seen a bankai from him so, I won't jump to the Aizen is a Vaizard thing just yet.

Final showdown.. Aizen vs more than 1 person. Ichigo's going to need another power boost (which seems like the direction this is headed.) to go toe to toe with Aizen.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]With Aizen though, I just can't picture him as being Yamamoto's equal in terms of power, simply because if he was, I don't think he'd have needed to use the scheme he did to get the hyougokyou.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I should be more careful with how I phrase things. In terms of strength, ie total reiatsu, Yamamoto could very well be superior. As far as cunning, plotting, execution of plans and ultimately who would win in a battle, I think that would likely go to Aizen, if for no other reason than I can't see him even entering a battle he doesn't think himself capable of winning. If he realized he'd be going up against someone that could overpower him, he would maneuver things prior to the battle so as to give him an advantage. So far, he's done this with ease.

Just like we all get the sense that Gin revels in plotting and backstabbing, I believe Aizen would choose scheming over strightforward confrontation any day. It just feels like his style. Some people find their thrills in long drawn-out stings. Nothing brings them deeper satisfaction. It's obvious Aizen loves manipulating people. We can see that in his dealings with poor Hinamori, and more recently Orihime. You can see in his eyes that he derives great pleasure from it, the sick bastard.

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]I'm just curious, do you eventually see Isshin and Ryuuken showing up in Hueco Mundo ? I'd love to see Ichigo's face when he realises his father is potentially his equal if not stronger than him.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

It would be a waste for those two to stay far away from the meat of the story, so I hope they do something of the sort. Though, if the hougyoku requires the absorption of a large spiritually dense area, is there a possibility there will be some form of all-out offensive in Karakura town? What all is involved in targeting the right area for the hougyoku? Will Aizen need to send men to stake out the area, laying beacons or something for the destruction to take place within it? Or is it just going to happen that way naturally? I would love to see Isshin and Ryuuken get into the thick of things, but I think Isshin at least will want to stay close to his girls, ensuring their protection. As for Ryuuken, it would be great character development if he was willing to traverse dimensions on behalf of others. I'm not sure he'd go so far as that, but it would be interesting.

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]It's actually really nice to have someone else to discuss Bleach with, usually this thread is almost completely dead except for two or three posts around the new chapters.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

One thing you'll find with time - I love me a good discussion, especially about things I find of interest. My brother and I can carry on about things like this (mostly with Naruto, which he's writing an epic fanfic about) for hours, literally. Recently we had an in-depth discussion on exactly how chakra can cushion the body's cells so that rapid acceleration doesn't rupture internal organs. Also, precisely how henge works, especially things like Naruto and Gamabunta's joint henge. We concluded the excess size and density is achieved by materializing and solidifying your chakra, turning it into physical matter. The hard part comes when you try to compact yourself into a smaller space than your body would normally inhabit, a la Naruto becoming a fuuma shuriken. Good stuff, that.

The only problem with this - sometimes it can be hard to shut me up.:animesmil

[Gavin]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Err. This sorta goes back to me stating that Hitsugaya has overrated the arrancar, or he's the weakest captain.. (or doesn't deserve his title as captain.. Something like that.) Depending on how this fight between Kenpachi and Nnoitora turns out (whether it's over too quickly or not.) before I start saying that the 1st four (five maybe..) espadas are Vasto Lordes.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]It's my own personal bias here against Hitsugaya but I think he's probably the weakest of the captains due to the fact he's the least seasoned of them, genius can't really make up for experience completely. After all Luppi had him practically beaten, and he was torn apart by Grimmjow.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Final showdown.. Aizen vs more than 1 person. Ichigo's going to need another power boost (which seems like the direction this is headed.) to go toe to toe with Aizen.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]If he's fighting Ichigo, there's going to be someone else there, but if he ends up fighting Yamamoto, I think it'll be one on one.[/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']I should be more careful with how I phrase things. In terms of strength, ie total reiatsu, Yamamoto could very well be superior. As far as cunning, plotting, execution of plans and ultimately who would win in a battle, I think that would likely go to Aizen, if for no other reason than I can't see him even entering a battle he doesn't think himself capable of winning. If he realized he'd be going up against someone that could overpower him, he would maneuver things prior to the battle so as to give him an advantage. So far, he's done this with ease.

Just like we all get the sense that Gin revels in plotting and backstabbing, I believe Aizen would choose scheming over strightforward confrontation any day. It just feels like his style. Some people find their thrills in long drawn-out stings. Nothing brings them deeper satisfaction. It's obvious Aizen loves manipulating people. We can see that in his dealings with poor Hinamori, and more recently Orihime. You can see in his eyes that he derives great pleasure from it, the sick bastard.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, that's actually what I was thinking, Aizen may not be as strong as Yamamoto, but in an actual face off, I think due to all Aizen's pre-planning, he would probably hold the advantage. He's already proven he could operate completely under Yamamoto's radar, so I don't see him changing a working formula.[/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']It would be a waste for those two to stay far away from the meat of the story, so I hope they do something of the sort. Though, if the hougyoku requires the absorption of a large spiritually dense area, is there a possibility there will be some form of all-out offensive in Karakura town? What all is involved in targeting the right area for the hougyoku? Will Aizen need to send men to stake out the area, laying beacons or something for the destruction to take place within it? Or is it just going to happen that way naturally? I would love to see Isshin and Ryuuken get into the thick of things, but I think Isshin at least will want to stay close to his girls, ensuring their protection. As for Ryuuken, it would be great character development if he was willing to traverse dimensions on behalf of others. I'm not sure he'd go so far as that, but it would be interesting.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"]I'd have loved nothing more than for Isshin to be the one to deflect Nnoitra's strike instead of having Kenpachi appear. But hopefully we will see some action out of those two, it really made no sense for them not to do anything aside fromt ake out two minor arrancar, where were they when Yami, Grimmjow, Ulquiorra and all the other Espada turned up ? They're obviously more powerful than their kids, well not completely sure about Isshin, but really, for a Shinigami captain and a Quincy, they're fairly slow to act.

Just for laughs, I love it if turned out that Isshin's old squad was the Sixth, just so we could see a younger Byakuya and laugh at how Isshin treated him.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Just for laughs, I love it if turned out that Isshin's old squad was the Sixth, just so we could see a younger Byakuya and laugh at how Isshin treated him.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Could that explain some of the hostility we see between the two? Or even why Byakuya seems to really chafe around his own Lieutenant? Renji's so similar to Ichigo, and Ichigo to his father, that that would be hysterical.

It would probably make a bit of sense if he'd been captain of squad Ten, though. Perhaps that's why Hitsugaya is so inexperienced. They've just been filling the spot Isshin left with the newbies. People keep getting shifted around, so it's a possibility.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']It would probably make a bit of sense if he'd been captain of squad Ten, though. Perhaps that's why Hitsugaya is so inexperienced. They've just been filling the spot Isshin left with the newbies. People keep getting shifted around, so it's a possibility.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]I don't know, a lot of theories have him as the 10th Squads captain, but I just can't picture it. Isshin hasn't been a captain in over fifty years, because if he had been, then Rukia would recognise him, and so far, she doesn't seem to have. Likewise, I just don't see Hitsugaya as being a captain for fifty years, it just, to me, doesn't fit with him being the youngest captain.

Plus, his being the old 6th Squad captain would just make things so much more interesting, and hilarious.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]...I just don't see Hitsugaya as being a captain for fifty years...[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

That's why I used the plural "newbies". As in, [I]several[/I] people had been shifted around, filling that spot as 10th squad captain, and [I]then[/I] it settled on Hitsugaya. It would have meant changing things more frequently, but I don't think it would have been that unlikely. You try things out until you settle on one setup that you like. This happens with businesses quite often. A top executive steps down, a temporary replacement is found, some shuffling within the business hierarchy happens, and then the final choice is made - and Hitsugaya is chosen for captain. Now, if most of the captains are staunchly against change, this would be unlikely. I agree, it's much more fun envisioning Isshin rubbing shoulders with Byakuya.

What about squad 3? Gin replaced someone, albeit someone other than Isshin or Renji would be able to recognize him too. But that also points to a quicker turn around within the captains ranks. Kenpachi's seizing of squad 11 doesn't seem to have happened all that terribly long ago either. I think these people are more accustomed to change than we may think.

[Gavin]

[FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][SIZE=1][quote name='TwistedChick']I think these people are more accustomed to change than we may think.[/quote][/SIZE][/FONT]

[SIZE=1][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]I just can't see that as being realistic because I don't think captains get killed/replaced that often. We all saw the shock that Soul Society reacted with to Aizen's death, and he was perceived at least to be one of the weaker captains, or so it seems. [/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Really I find the captain roster to be one of the most confusing things, and I really think it shows further manipulations from Aizen. I mean the three oldest captains are Yamamoto, Kyouraku and Ukitake but after that things get really confusing.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Aizen, Unohana and Urahara all became captains after those three, though the exact times are unknown.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Gin and Byakuya became captains at the same time, which means that either their two squad captains were killed in the one incident, or one was killed and the other was Isshin.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Tousen and Komamura became captains around the same time I assume, which means that two other captains died around a similar period to one another. The fact that three of Aizen's former squad became captains is a little suspicious I think, but that's counter-acted by the fact Byakuya said that it was incredibly rare for someone to achieve Bankai and therefore rare to become a captain.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Next come Soifon, Mayuri and Hitsugaya who all seem to have become captains after Urahara's departure from Soul Society, which occurred sometime in the last century.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Kenpachi we have no idea actually when he became a captain, although from the way Tousen spoke, he may have been a captain when Kenpachi became one.[/SIZE][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]So yeah, you're right when you say people are probably used to a relatively often changing captain roster, at least for souls which can live over a thousand years but even that in itself doesn't make sense for a few reasons.[/SIZE][/FONT]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]One, we know that someone usually has to have bankai to become a captain, Kenpachi is the exception here because he's already as strong/stronger than most bankai wielding captains.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST][LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Two, as I've already said Byakuya said it was incredibly rare for someone to achieve bankai, to the point where they're names are forever etched into Soul Society's history and I assume those individuals are also captains. That does flow slightly against what we've seen in that Renji, Ikkaku and Ichigo all have bankai and are not captains, but I imagine them to be a very big set of exceptions rather than the rule. [/SIZE][/FONT][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Really, for Renji to achieve bankai in only fifty years as a Shinigami is really impressive, as he did it the long way, as opposed to Ichigo.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST][LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Three, captains are really freaking powerful, Ichigo was about the level of a normal Shinigami, or a low seated officer at the start of the show/manga, and yet Byakuya took him out as if he were absolutely nothing at only a fifth of his power with just his sealed sword. Similarly, only Vasto Lorde provide a real danger to captains and they're exceptionally rare and don't move outside Hueco Mundo from what we've learned. Add to that that Isshin killed an incomplete Arrancar Grand Fisher with just his sword in a single strike, yeah, I think I've made the point.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST][LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Four, captains seem to live a hell of a long time, Yamamoto is over two millenia old, I imagine Kyouraku and Ukitake are over a thousand with the other captains getting younger until you get to Hitsugaya. So I just find it odd that there could be a level of change occurring where we have multiple captains changing in one squad.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST]
[LIST]
[*][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Five, when Ichimaru, Aizen and Tousen leave Soul Society, their lieutenants replace them, but are not promoted to the rank of captain. Now, actually this is where it's possible for place-holding to occur as you said could have happened between Isshin and Hitsugaya, as perhaps he was the first person to achieve bankai and fill the empty spot.[/SIZE][/FONT][/LIST][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]Meh, as I said, very confusing.[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][FONT=Franklin Gothic Medium][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]I just can't see that as being realistic because I don't think captains get killed/replaced that often... [FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1]

...So yeah, you're right when you say people are probably used to a relatively often changing captain roster, at least for souls which can live over a thousand years but even that in itself doesn't make sense for a few reasons....[/SIZE][/FONT][SIZE=1]

Meh, as I said, very confusing.[/SIZE][/FONT][/FONT][/SIZE][/QUOTE]

So... you kinda agree with me? Or not? Maybe? I don't actually have any real knowledge of the subject, since until yesterday or whenever I'd never even wondered about it. It just seems like we've been exposed to a bit of shuffling within the ranks.

What we really need is Kubo to just come out and produce a list detailing the history of the 13 squads. I don't think a publisher will go for it, though. They'd probably argue it's better to leave some mystery in every piece of art. Whatever.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']So... you kinda agree with me? Or not? Maybe? I don't actually have any real knowledge of the subject, since until yesterday or whenever I'd never even wondered about it. It just seems like we've been exposed to a bit of shuffling within the ranks. [/quote]

[SIZE="1"]It's a little of both actually, I disagree that captains would be replaced multiple times in something as small as a fifty year period, but I agree that the Gotei 13 are still used to a shifting captains roster, at least relatively, becauase Shinigami can live for so long.

Really I think for the reasons I already gave in the bullet points it makes little sense that captains are replaced any more often than every few hundred years unless there's a incident which kills multiple captains.[/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']What we really need is Kubo to just come out and produce a list detailing the history of the 13 squads. I don't think a publisher will go for it, though. They'd probably argue it's better to leave some mystery in every piece of art. Whatever.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, it's sort of like Naruto and the Hidden Villages, we'd like more info, but it's probably linked to future plots.[/SIZE]

[Magus]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]It's my own personal bias here against Hitsugaya but I think he's probably the weakest of the captains due to the fact he's the least seasoned of them, genius can't really make up for experience completely. After all Luppi had him practically beaten, and he was torn apart by Grimmjow.[/SIZE][/quote]
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Slight correction. Hitsugaya fought with Shao Lu Fong (or whatever his name is.), but all the same, he was nearly torn apart lol. But people would argue that's only because his powers was limited.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE="1"']If he's fighting Ichigo, there's going to be someone else there, but if he ends up fighting Yamamoto, I think it'll be one on one.[/SIZE][/quote]

[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]I can see so many Aizen vs fights.. It's hard to see exactly how it'll turn out.

- It could be Aizen vs Yamamoto, along side Kyoraku and Ukitake (Perhaps Komammura as well.) With Yamamoto dying (Didn't you know? Aizen's Superman XD), but that'd be too uhh obvious.... (Meh, I suck with these theories. :))

- Aizen vs Ichigo.. Truthfully, I don't see this fight going down, and it's probably just me. I see Ichigo's last fight being against Ulquiorra. That is, if the creator don't drag this out too much.

- Aizen vs Urahara + Isshin... pfft, yeah right. :p[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE="1"']I'd have loved nothing more than for Isshin to be the one to deflect Nnoitra's strike instead of having Kenpachi appear. But hopefully we will see some action out of those two, it really made no sense for them not to do anything aside fromt ake out two minor arrancar, where were they when Yami, Grimmjow, Ulquiorra and all the other Espada turned up ? They're obviously more powerful than their kids, well not completely sure about Isshin, but really, for a Shinigami captain and a Quincy, they're fairly slow to act.[/quote][/SIZE]

[COLOR="red"][SIZE="1"]Knowing Ryuuken, he has no interest, and Isshin is taking care of his daughters.. As well as working... haha, that guy knows how to balance things out. (No clue about Isshin, actually. Just thought I'd toss that out. XD)[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']Just for laughs, I love it if turned out that Isshin's old squad was the Sixth, just so we could see a younger Byakuya and laugh at how Isshin treated him.[/SIZE][/quote]
[COLOR="red"][SIZE="1"]No theory, or anything to back up my statements here, but I've always pictured Isshin as the old captain of the 3rd squad or uhh... what's that group.. 7th (Komammura), I think?[/size][/color]

[quote name='Gavin][size=1']Aizen, Unohana and Urahara all became captains after those three, though the exact times are unknown.[/quote][/size]
[COLOR="red"][SIZE="1"]I don't know. In some ways, I think (again, no way to back this up, nor any reason... A bunch of jibberish lol) that Aizen, Urahara, Kyoraku, Ukitake, Isshin became captains around the same time. Although, I have to re-read to see if Kyoraku and Ukitake became captains before everybody else, because I don't remember too much of the conversation.. (I need a life lol) I can't remember if Yamamoto said that Ukitake and Kyoraku became the first 2 captains, or if they were the ones he trained, and was just happy when they became captains.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]...because Shinigami can live for so long.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

Obviously, that's true. They live a very long time. But how does that work with keeping the balance between Soul Society and earth? If it's life for life, shouldn't Soul Society have been overpopulated by short-lived humans long ago? Everyone in Sould Society has the potential of living that long, right? They aren't being killed off all the time to be sent back to earth, so how does any of this actually result in keeping the balance?

Gavin, you stated earlier, [QUOTE]"I think that when Shinigami die, they're reincarnated back to Earth as new people, even the ones who were born in Soul Society in the first place. It's all part of that whole balance things, souls in motion between the two worlds, and Shinigami are really just powerful souls."[/QUOTE]

This is what Kubo has told us. But when I think about it, it doesn't really make any sense. It's kind of like saying that every ant in this world is replaced at death with a bird, and vice versa. Unless birds were reproducing like mad, it would be impossible. And even [I]then[/I], we all know it's imposible.

So, unless someone from Soul Society is involuntarily called to the human world as a replacement when someone dies (something we know isn't the case since we've heard nothing of people randomly disappearing - I mean, surely it would be a random lottery that not even those in the 13 squads would be protected from), the balance of the universe is lost. The only other option is that the vast majority of humans never go to Soul Society. They are simply instantly reborn as other humans. (This is one of the simple reasons why reincarnation is a fairly obvious no-no in reality. 1) "Balance" is impossible when in one hand you claim every living thing is simply recycled material and in the other you have an exponentially growing total population. 2) What would a slug have to do to "move up or down the chain"? and 3) [I][B]Why?[/B][/I] - I definitely don't want to turn this into a religious debate. I'm just stating the obvious.:animesmil)



I'm probably sucking the fun out of a lot of this. I'm not critiquing Kubo or his creativity. I just think it's interesting I've never heard someone bring up this point before, including myself not thinking about it until now.

[Gavin]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]Slight correction. Hitsugaya fought with Shao Lu Fong (or whatever his name is.), but all the same, he was nearly torn apart lol. But people would argue that's only because his powers was limited.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, admittedly he killed him pretty quickly after using the Limit Release, but it's still pretty disgraceful that he couldn't kill him without needing it.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Memphis'][COLOR="red"][SIZE="1"]I don't know. In some ways, I think (again, no way to back this up, nor any reason... A bunch of jibberish lol) that Aizen, Urahara, Kyoraku, Ukitake, Isshin became captains around the same time. Although, I have to re-read to see if Kyoraku and Ukitake became captains before everybody else, because I don't remember too much of the conversation.. (I need a life lol) I can't remember if Yamamoto said that Ukitake and Kyoraku became the first 2 captains, or if they were the ones he trained, and was just happy when they became captains.[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Well we know Kyouraku and Ukitake were the first two after Yamamoto, because Yama-jii says during their fight that they were the first two to graduate from the captain's school he created. I imagine that amounts to being the same as them being the two earliest currently serving captains after the commander.

Unfortunately with the others it's all just speculation.[/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']So, unless someone from Soul Society is involuntarily called to the human world as a replacement when someone dies (something we know isn't the case since we've heard nothing of people randomly disappearing - I mean, surely it would be a random lottery that not even those in the 13 squads would be protected from), the balance of the universe is lost. The only other option is that the vast majority of humans never go to Soul Society. They are simply instantly reborn as other humans. (This is one of the simple reasons why reincarnation is a fairly obvious no-no in reality. 1) "Balance" is impossible when in one hand you claim every living thing is simply recycled material and in the other you have an exponentially growing total population. 2) What would a slug have to do to "move up or down the chain"? and 3) [I][B]Why?[/B][/I] - I definitely don't want to turn this into a religious debate. I'm just stating the obvious.:animesmil)
[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, admittedly it is hard to see how they balance it, further screwed by the fact that Quincy obliterate souls rather than simply "bleaching" them like the Shinigami do. I doubt souls are just randomly called, though.

Really, that's something Kubo needs to explain. I always assumed that souls in Soul Society must die at a similarly constant rate to those of the real world, even despite the live-expectency, which even then fluctuates depending on the area.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Really, that's something Kubo needs to explain. I always assumed that souls in Soul Society must die at a similarly constant rate to those of the real world, even despite the live-expectency, which even then fluctuates depending on the area.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

There will always be holes in every story. I guess what really upsets me is that I notice them, not that they exist. If only I didn't know about them I wouldn't be distracted by them.

It's interesting to think that living in a different place would reflect itself in your lifespan. Maybe the stronger your reiatsu the longer you live? Perhaps that's really why those in the 13 squads live so long - they're more powerful than the others. If not everyone in Soul Society lives hundreds or thousands of years, then the balance wouldn't be as big a problem. The new children being born in Soul Society would account for the growth in population of the real world. And those few that live seemingly forever would pale in significance to the vast hordes of lower spiritual power when it comes to keeping the balance. Then, maybe it really would matter if the Quincy destroy hollows instead of "cleansing" them, or whatever.

But, then again, it could be that [I]everyone[/I] is supposed to live for a frickin' long time and they just can't continue having children after a certain age, keeping the total population stable. (I mean, if people who live to be 1000 can have kids until they're "middle-aged"...every single person could have 8 generations of grand-kids before they died. What would [I]that[/I] do for the balance? 'Eek' is all I have to say.) That would mean that people in Soul Society would all be dying off just as regularly as people in the real world, just all around the same [I]extremely[/I] old age after perhaps having a few children. So it would resemble standard living here...just delayed.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']There will always be holes in every story. I guess what really upsets me is that I notice them, not that they exist. If only I didn't know about them I wouldn't be distracted by them. [/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Yeah, I think it's the same for me. I always end up noticing things that don't really make sense and then tend to dwell on them a little too much. I suppose uber-fans like us just make regular fans thankful they can ignore the smaller plot-holes. ^_^[/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']It's interesting to think that living in a different place would reflect itself in your lifespan. Maybe the stronger your reiatsu the longer you live? Perhaps that's really why those in the 13 squads live so long - they're more powerful than the others. If not everyone in Soul Society lives hundreds or thousands of years, then the balance wouldn't be as big a problem. The new children being born in Soul Society would account for the growth in population of the real world. And those few that live seemingly forever would pale in significance to the vast hordes of lower spiritual power when it comes to keeping the balance. Then, maybe it really would matter if the Quincy destroy hollows instead of "cleansing" them, or whatever.

But, then again, it could be that [I]everyone[/I] is supposed to live for a frickin' long time and they just can't continue having children after a certain age, keeping the total population stable. (I mean, if people who live to be 1000 can have kids until they're "middle-aged"...every single person could have 8 generations of grand-kids before they died. What would [I]that[/I] do for the balance? 'Eek' is all I have to say.) That would mean that people in Soul Society would all be dying off just as regularly as people in the real world, just all around the same [I]extremely[/I] old age after perhaps having a few children. So it would resemble standard living here...just delayed.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Heh, I think it's better we just accept it's a plot-hole and move on, otherwise I think we'll end up going insane before we reach any kind of satisfactory conclusion.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]Heh, I think it's better we just accept it's a plot-hole and move on, otherwise I think we'll end up going insane before we reach any kind of satisfactory conclusion.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

I accept your proposal and will treat it as an executive decision. Henceforth, there will be no dwelling on this matter. Meeting adjourned.



On to other business... Kenpachi's battling right now, correct? I'd almost forgotten. Funny how carried away I can get.:animesmil So, let's focus on someone's impending doom. It will serve as a great distraction.

Many of the captains have their entire appearance change when they bankai. Any guesses on what might happen to Kenpachi if he were to do the same? A wardrobe change, perhaps? I'm really more interested in what the nature of his blade would be than his clothes, but that's for another time. I see his torn captain's robe being replaced by something underworldly. Dark and wicked looking, perhaps resembling fangs - that's what I imagine. Or, we could all be completely surprised and find out his blade has a nature reminiscent of Yachiru, so Kenpachi ends up in pink or or a light purple, some kind of pastels. That would be deliciously terrible. I'm still leaning more towards the former, though. (ya think?)

[Magus]

[quote name='TwistedChick']- that's what I imagine. Or, we could all be completely surprised and find out his blade has a nature reminiscent of Yachiru, so Kenpachi ends up in pink or or a light purple, some kind of pastels. That would be deliciously terrible. I'm still leaning more towards the former, though. (ya think?)[/quote]
[COLOR="Red"][SIZE="1"]I'd die laughing if I saw that.

That cut on Kenpachi is the deepest cut I've seen on any character so far, or rather, it looks very deep. I wasn't too sure about it beforehand, but I am anticipating a release from Kenpachi. I want to say that he hinted at it in that chapter where Nnoitora said that his skin is the hardest of the espada.

I don't have many thoughts about this chapter. Just wish they'd move on already.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[TwistedChick]

I'm digging Kenpachi right now. His characterization in this chapter is wonderful. I mean, he's laid open all the way to his ribs and his expression is one of "And? So what?" Nnoitora really needs to get with the program, though. When you're up against Kenpachi and you have another trick up your sleeve, or rather another arm in your body, don't waste the opportunity by just going for a side shot. Shove that newly revealed appendage through his heart or his neck. [I]That[/I] might actually accomplish something.

I'm slightly intrigued by Ichigo's remark about Inoue. It isn't quite clear yet what exactly it entails, but it does make it seem like [I]everyone[/I] and their mothers can get stronger by going to Hueco Mundo. That's fine by me. Orihime can morph into the next Tetsuo for all I care. Just keep the story moving.

[Gavin]

[SIZE="1"]I have to say, I really was expecting more out of this fight, rather than the constant trash-talking between the two. I've never particularly liked Nnoitra, and his whole act of whipping out a new trick every time Kenpachi gets the upper-hand on him is wearing pretty thin at the moment. I mean he constantly goes on about how strong he is, so either he fights Kenpachi at a hundred percent or he should shut the **** up as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I really don't like Nnoitra. ^_^;

As far as the Inoue comment went, I don't know, her powers have always been an oddity, so it's entirely possible that Hueco Mundo has made her a little stronger as well. Her powers' strength are based in her will as well, and she always seemed quite attached to Yachiru, I imagine that helped too.[/SIZE]

[TwistedChick]

[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]I mean he constantly goes on about how strong he is, so either he fights Kenpachi at a hundred percent or he should shut the **** up as far as I'm concerned. Yeah, I really don't like Nnoitra. ^_^;[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


That's why everyone should fight like Chad. Go all out from the start. You either overwhelm the opponent and prove your badassness right away, or you spare yourself the embarrassment of dragging out a fight you could never win from the start. That's the reason of all the Espada, the only one I truly respect is Ulquiorra. He seems to get straight to the point in everything he does. No trash talk. No dancing around. Just observe the situation and act.


[quote name='Gavin'][SIZE="1"]As far as the Inoue comment went, I don't know, her powers have always been an oddity, so it's entirely possible that Hueco Mundo has made her a little stronger as well. Her powers' strength are based in her will as well, and she always seemed quite attached to Yachiru, I imagine that helped too.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]


I'm interested to see where her abilities go. They don't seem to really relate to one another, so she could be written in almost any way and it would be believable.

[Gavin]

[quote name='TwistedChick']That's why everyone should fight like Chad. Go all out from the start. You either overwhelm the opponent and prove your badassness right away, or you spare yourself the embarrassment of dragging out a fight you could never win from the start. That's the reason of all the Espada, the only one I truly respect is Ulquiorra. He seems to get straight to the point in everything he does. No trash talk. No dancing around. Just observe the situation and act.[/quote]

[SIZE="1"]Completely agree. I don't mind it much for characters like Ichigo who's strength continues to grow during fights, but for guys like Nnoitra who seem to be in full command of their power, going about a fight half-assed just seems so lazy and lame. I know Kenpachi likes to try and draw out his fights to enjoy them, and while it works to be entertaining sometimes, in this case, it's really working against him, both as a character and in the terms of the fight itself.

As for Ulquiorra, I agree completely again, even if he's had the most exposure next to Grimmjow of the Espada, he's by far the most interesting. He does his job, does it well, and does it without irritating the hell out of the reader. Ulquiorra, please, kill Nnoitra and develop and even greater fanbase.[/SIZE]

[quote name='TwistedChick']I'm interested to see where her abilities go. They don't seem to really relate to one another, so she could be written in almost any way and it would be believable.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE="1"]Orihime, I don't know, she's never really interested me as a character, so what happens her as long as it's good for the story is fine with me.[/SIZE]