Force

[The13thMan]

[FONT=Century Gothic] [COLOR=DarkOrange]I recently read Anthem by Ayn Rand and the subject of her politics was brought up. Basically she has a very individualist view in politics. If we have motivation to do well and put a lot of effort into things then we will do well. If we are lazy and don?t want to do well then we won?t and we will perish. If everybody competes to make the same product then the best product will be successful. She really hates the way our society allows slackers to get by. So basically she believes that the government shouldn?t force the people to do anything at all, even if it?s for their own good.

So?..
Is it ok to force people to do things? I ask this in the context of the government forcing the people to do things. But you can also answer it out of that context if you wish.

I personally think it is ok as long as it doesn?t get out of hand.

I also highly recommend the book ?Anthem?. It?s a great read.

Later.[/COLOR] [/FONT]

[Touchstone]

[FONT=Georgia]Oh, I love Ayn Rand. Have you also read The Fountain Head? Even though it was about six hundreds pages I couldn't put it down and ended up reading it in two weeks. Her characters and ideas are fascinating.

I personally don't think the government should regulate people to do things unless it's for their benefit. Forcing an alcoholic to go to rehab is a good thing, to wear our seat belts, to not speed, to educate our kids, all these are good. It's things like forcing librarians to give up records of books checked out that make me mad. We should have the freedom to believe what we want and to fill our heads with what we want. It should only be stopped if we hurt people. That's what it comes down to for me. Yet seems to be a precarious thing to protect our privacy and civil liberties (the wiretapping scandal, the patriot act). I wonder why that is. [/FONT]

[Zen]

[color=darkgreen][size=1]

I know I've read an Ayn Rand novella. I can't remember the name, though (I read it over a year ago), however the story is fresh in mind. About a worker in a utopian society without individuality. In fact, people were not allowed to refer to themselves as "I", "Me", or anything else. The main character refers to himself as 'We' and 'Us'. Every person in the society believes themselves to all be part of a hive mind with no thought unshared. Every person was assigned a job, and went by names such as "Unity-90012" or "Faction-12330" and what not.

The whole book is told through first person, and follows the protagonist's discovery of individuality and the world outside of his untopia. It's kind of like a shorter, more intellectual "The Giver".

There are a few things that must be known about Ayn Rand to understand her works. She was an athiest, she was born in the Soviet Union, and she was married to an American (living in New York City I believe). Alot of her works are based around an anti-communist message. She believed deeply in individuality and promoted the arts in all forms. So, most of her work is about a message that people should be allowed to pursue their own ambitions in life, regardless of the skills they possess or what job they may be good at.

So, basically, her message was that of anti-communism/totalitarianism/fascism. My views are basically the same as hers, I guess. No body should be forced into any line of work, regardless of how good it may be for the society as a whole. If it means the lost of individuality, then I'm against.

P.S.- Yeah. I read the[B] "Anthem"[/B]. That's it.[/color][/size]

[Touchstone]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=darkgreen][size=1]
So, basically, her message was that of anti-communism/totalitarianism/fascism. My views are basically the same as hers, I guess. No body should be forced into any line of work, regardless of how good it may be for the society as a whole. If it means the lost of individuality, then I'm against.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

I agree with her also, although some people go a bit far with it. There's actually an Ayn Rand institute based around her fiction and philosophical works. I think that's a weirdly obsessive, and she would probably think it strange. Although it would be awesome if there was a Thomas Hobbes institute :D .

She really brilliantly showed her philosophy I think in [i]The Fountainhead[/i]. One of the main characters is pressured into becoming an architect because his designs are mediocre enough to make him widely successful, yet he secretly loved to paint. When his career ultimately failed he tried to paint again, but he had lost the talent he once had. No one put the pressure on him except himself and his greed. I think more often than not it's also ourselves who destroy who we are. I think that's just as sad as a dictatorship forcing you to extinguish yourself.

[visualkei]

[QUOTE=Touchstone][FONT=Georgia]Oh, I love Ayn Rand. Have you also read The Fountain Head? Even though it was about six hundreds pages I couldn't put it down and ended up reading it in two weeks. Her characters and ideas are fascinating.

I personally don't think the government should regulate people to do things unless it's for their benefit. Forcing an alcoholic to go to rehab is a good thing, to wear our seat belts, to not speed, to educate our kids, all these are good. It's things like forcing librarians to give up records of books checked out that make me mad. We should have the freedom to believe what we want and to fill our heads with what we want. It should only be stopped if we hurt people. That's what it comes down to for me. Yet seems to be a precarious thing to protect our privacy and civil liberties (the wiretapping scandal, the patriot act). I wonder why that is. [/FONT][/QUOTE]

I agree, I think "forcing" us to do [I]some[/I] things is good. For example, speed limits and going to school. These things aren't forced just because it's for your own good, it's for the sake and safety of those around you. If your actions risk the safety of those around you, then there should be some [I]regulation[/I]. I think regulation is the key word here. I think we all have an idea of when boundaries are crossed, and there's a violation of privacy.

Anthem's a good book. The end kind of dissatisfied me, though, because it just all came together too perfectly.

[Corey]

[quote name='Touchstone][FONT=Georgia']Forcing an alcoholic to go to rehab is a good thing, to wear our seat belts, to not speed, to educate our kids, all these are good. It's things like forcing librarians to give up records of books checked out that make me mad.[/FONT][/quote]

[size=1]Ok...
How can you possibly contrast rehabilitation to seized library records? Please explain...[/size]

[quote name='The13thMan][FONT=Century Gothic] [COLOR=DarkOrange]She really hates the way our society allows slackers to get by. So basically she believes that the government shouldn?t force the people to do anything at all, even if it?s for their own good.[/COLOR'] [/FONT][/quote]

[size=1]Contradiction?
It would seem so, Watson.[/size]

[Maneki Neko]

[FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkOrchid]I think, even if it is for someone's own good, or for the good of society, it is wrong to force anyone to do anything.
Forcing someone to do something is a violation of their personal freedom. I realize that the government forces people to do things, like go to jail or go back to their own country, etc. Some of those things are good and some are bad.

How often in your everyday life are you forced to do something? You may say that you are forced to do things at work or at school, but they are asking something of you and you are choosing to do those things.

I don't know if forcing us to do some things is good, it may be. It's like when mom made you eat you broccoli so that you could grow up strong. Did mom actually force it down your throat, or did you eat it? (Or just throw it under the table for the dog?) What if you were allergic to it? The idea was good, the outcome bad. You still chose what to do with that broccoli.

I think anytime something is forced upon someone, the outcome is bad, because [B]no one[/B] should be forced in to something.

Might've gone on a small tangent maybe... :D
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Touchstone]

[QUOTE=Corey][size=1]Ok...
How can you possibly contrast rehabilitation to seized library records? Please explain...[/size]



[size=1]Contradiction?
It would seem so, Watson.[/size][/QUOTE]

Hmm...how [i]did[/i] I get there? I wasn't born with a logical linear thought process, much to my own detriment! I think I was trying to show the distinction between government regulations and government abuses of power. Which can be a fine line.

[QUOTE=Maneki Neko][FONT=Verdana][SIZE=1][COLOR=DarkOrchid]I think, even if it is for someone's own good, or for the good of society, it is wrong to force anyone to do anything.
Forcing someone to do something is a violation of their personal freedom. I realize that the government forces people to do things, like go to jail or go back to their own country, etc. Some of those things are good and some are bad.

How often in your everyday life are you forced to do something? You may say that you are forced to do things at work or at school, but they are asking something of you and you are choosing to do those things.

I don't know if forcing us to do some things is good, it may be. It's like when mom made you eat you broccoli so that you could grow up strong. Did mom actually force it down your throat, or did you eat it? (Or just throw it under the table for the dog?) What if you were allergic to it? The idea was good, the outcome bad. You still chose what to do with that broccoli.

I think anytime something is forced upon someone, the outcome is bad, because [B]no one[/B] should be forced in to something.

Might've gone on a small tangent maybe... :D
[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT][/QUOTE]

That's a good point; it's very hard to force me to do something, and if I do do it it's because I've chosen to. We ultimately choose from the array of stimulus coming at us in this world. Whether it's good or bad for us is a different matter.