Protests and Immigrants Oh My!

[vegeta rocker]

I was wondering what you guys thought about the immigrants protesting and not going to work this past Monday.

Do you think it is a valid strategy?

DO you think it will solve anything?

What about the bills they are trying to pass, do you have any opinions?

I myself think the bills that make you a felon are not too bad of a deal. I'm hispanic and i don't think it's any good for our economy. I say this because where i live it is pratically a hellhole because of the unbalanced population/tax payer ratio.

Besides this will stop alot of people from dying as well while trying to cross the border.

[Doukeshi]

[SIZE=1]Oh don't get me started on immigration man. If I had my way all borders would be locked down tight and aint noone getting in without a damn good reason. You had better have a job, means to get a job, family or you're just visiting, anything else you're just gonna have to live in France. Bloody spongers.

Australia has the best way: [URL=http://www.visabureau.com/australia/default.aspx?s_cid=20005824]Australian Immigration[/URL]

You have to be skilled in a particular proffession or have family before they even think about letting you live there.

Obviously that has nothing to do with the immediate topic, I do appologise.

On the subject.

I have never liked striking as a way of getting what you want. All it does is annoy people, and alientate those striking from the rest of the public. What I don't get is this, however:

[quote name='The Guardian']Over the past few weeks, unions and religious and Hispanic groups have mustered nationwide protest marches supporting a chance at U.S. citizenship for the estimated 11 million illegal immigrants. [/quote]

Illegal immigrants, immigrants who shouldn't have been there in the first place. By all rights they should be turfed out the country, not made citizens. Thats like saying "Congratulations you made it across our borders without dying and without us noticing, here's your prize". [/SIZE]

[KatanaViolet]

I'm all for it.
These people are striving for the "American Dream."
I'm sorry Doukeshi, but that narrow-minded, right-wing point of view makes me sick.
Whatever happened to "Land of the Free"? Some of them must be pretty desperate in order to try to cross the border illegally. I'm not saying I support illegal immigration, but to me these people are more like refugees. I'm sure they want to provide a good life for themselves and, even more so, their kids. Even still, most of them end up being underpaid.
Furthermore, America (like Canada) was built on immigration. I'm sure all the Native Americans would have much preferred that all the white people stayed where they come from. Especially with all the oppression that followed. And to be quite frank, the US isn't one to talk about entering a country illegaly (Iraq, anyone?).
I can understand that with the population in the US it can be a little sketchy about letting more people into their borders. But what about the people who came there legally? What about their family members who want to go there? If the US was as small and as populated as Japan, then I could understand tight limitations on immigration. But the US is a big country.
But then again, with global opinions of the US and their dollar decreasing, perhaps the US isn't the only option for them.
If they can handle the winters, Canada would happily welcome them.

Perhaps I'm touchy about the subject because my Dad was an immigrant, as well as everyone on his side of the family, except my aunt who was born in Canada. And even though I'm sure things have changed since 40 years ago, I'm sure that immigrants today still go through some of the hardships he went through. It was not easy for him, and I'm sure to this day it's not easy for other immigrants, not just from Mexico, but from all parts of the world.

They can march for their rights. If you kicked every immigrant out of the US, it's economy would crumble.

[Doukeshi]

[SIZE=1]American Dream? Excuse me while I choke on my coffee.

Right-wing I may be, narrow minded, I think not.

I understand that the US was based in immigration, and in a lot of cases immigration is welcome and encouraged. I'm not denying that. But when it gets to the stage that you don't know who is coming into your country, then you have a problem.

Illegal immigration is exactly what allows underpayment in the first place. If the government doesn't even know you are in the country there is absolutely nothing stopping your employer from taking advantage of you.

Immigration laws and restrictions are there for a reason. If you just let every Tom, Dick and Harry into the country there'd be chaos.

I'm not being narrow minded, I'm being realistic.[/SIZE]

[AnimeFront]

I must concur with Doukeshi. By allowing illegal immigrants to stay in this country we are worsening things for citizens and legal immigrants here. Big buisness is able to hire these people for cheaper and there for the minimum wage has no reason to go up. And thats just means you SOLed if you are making minimum wage and struggling. Illegal immigrants are getting quite arrogant demanding rights, they have no claim to america. KatanaViolet the true american dream and what this country was founded upon was exploitation. I'm not bashing america, but we were not founded for freedom. I hate how we get these stupid hippie, do good for, kind of liberals on the news interview saying stupid stuff like "open borders man", it gives an unfair representation of the left wing. Im am hevily left winged and I believe that illegal immigrants should be marched out of this country, come in legaly. And if you can't do that oh well to bad, thats how life goes the strong survive the weak die.

[silpheedpilot]

[COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1] Why should we keep our gates open? Why let people roam in free...Illegally for one and expect to get work, then when things go sour for them EXPECT change when they're not even supposed to be here in the first place?

In the me blaming them format; Why come to my country and take my jobs? Why come to my country, ILLEGALLY and demand things you do not rightfully deserve? Mostly for those who feel they need to try and change places in America's primary language to Spanish; LEARN MY LANGUAGE! If you want to live in American so bad then go get your legal documents and become an American citizen so then when you are I will feel less bad knowing that I missed out on a job opportunity to another American.

I'm sorry if any of that was narrow-minded and or vent worthy but this situation brings up alot of problems that can be easily solved by sending all illegal immigrants back from whence they came.

~AC!D!C[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Annie]

[QUOTE=AC!D!C][COLOR=DarkSlateGray][SIZE=1] Why should we keep our gates open? Why let people roam in free...Illegally for one and expect to get work, then when things go sour for them EXPECT change when they're not even supposed to be here in the first place?

In the me blaming them format; Why come to my country and take my jobs? Why come to my country, ILLEGALLY and demand things you do not rightfully deserve? Mostly for those who feel they need to try and change places in America's primary language to Spanish; LEARN MY LANGUAGE! If you want to live in American so bad then go get your legal documents and become an American citizen so then when you are I will feel less bad knowing that I missed out on a job opportunity to another American.

I'm sorry if any of that was narrow-minded and or vent worthy but this situation brings up alot of problems that can be easily solved by sending all illegal immigrants back from whence they came.

~AC!D!C[/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[size=1]'nough said.

I'm in total agreement with him and Doukeshi. I'm not racist, I'm not prejudice, but how can anyone expect to be given rights when they are [b]not[/b] a legal citizen? It's irritating to go to an [b]American[/b] restaurant and not [b]one[/b] worker can speak English.

If you want American freedom, if you want that "American Dream", by all means have it. But don't take advantage, don't f**king abuse the system. There are ways to get American citizenship. It takes time, but that's how it works--and it'd be legal.[/size]

[Fallenangel02]

I personally can see both sides of the argument.

Yes, illegal immigrants are in fact?well, illegal, and therefore should not be demanding things that they are not entitled to, because they have not gone through the proper process of immigration. Demanding citizenship or language change (which I think is blown way out of proportion by the media FYI) is very brazen, and rude if you want my opinion.

HOWEVER, on the other side, look at the US immigration process. It?s not that easy, and it can take years upon years. An older friend of mine was telling me a story about a friend of his who went through the citizenship application process, but decided not to stay in the US, and TEN years later, got information in the mail that she had been accepted.

That?s ridiculous, on both sides. Many solutions to this have been suggested, including a free travel policy like in Europe, but that would most likely lead to mass immigration to the US. Also, people have suggested improving Mexico, but Clinton gave them massive support during his term(s) as it was, and that helped very little.

Heres what SHOULD be done, but wont be done: Step1: Change the Immigration process. Make it easier, but not TOO easy. Make it faster, and snappy. I?m not a beaurocratic(sp!!) expert, so I wont go into specifics here, but you get the general idea. Step2: Screen the current illegal immigrants, and give the honest, taxpaying, well deserving ones citizenship, and let the rest be guinea pigs for the new immigration system. Or if screening them is hopeless (which it might be, since being illegal, there are most likely no documents or records on 95% of these people) just have all of them be first in line for this new process.

Hell, maybe its even hopeless to change the immigration process, I?m not saying that I know for sure it can be done. But that seems right to me.

[KatanaViolet]

[SIZE=1] :wigout: Oh how you all get riled up! I love a good debate!

Anyways, on a more serious note:
I'm not saying that illegal immigration is okay.
But I want to know WHY these people are having to resort to risking their lives for a chance of semi-freedom? Why aren't they filling out the appropriate papers and being granted the right to legally enter America's borders? There must be reasons behind it on both sides.

Perhaps I misunderstood you Doukeshi, but blatantly stating that these people don't have a right to become citizens is, in my opinion, appalling.
You don't know where they came from, and neither do I.
But surely it couldn't have been that great if they're going to such extremes just to get taken advantage of by rich people who figure they can save a couple bucks by hiring Sanchez instead of a national/regional/local gardening company.

Okay, that was a huge stereotype and isn't representative of all immigrants who enter the country, illegally or not. Either way, these people put immense effort into coming into your country. I think that the ones who come in legally deserve our respect, especially in multicultural countries like the US and Canada, where they contribute so much to our national identities, as well as our economy.

But in the same token, there shouldn't be so much anger to those who enter the country illegally. They obviously want something that America can offer to them.
Don't get me wrong though, CRIMINALS who enter ANY country illegally do not belong there. But what about those, for whatever reason, can't get the paperwork approved yet still attempt to cross America's borders? They should still be treated like people and should be looked at with understanding and not contempt.

I must apologize though, using words like "appalling" and saying your views (or any views radically different from mine) "make me sick," was a little brutish of me. I just disagree with it wholeheartedly. There must be ways that policies can be reviewed and work in favor of everyone: people within the country; and those outside the country who want to become members of its society. Either way, it's a problem that must be addressed.

Eep, this is a big post...I really hope I made sense and none of that came out in the wrong way. But that's just my position on the issue. I think I articulated it to the best of my... best. :animestun Wow, my eyes hurt.

Peace.[/SIZE]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='vegeta rocker']Do you think it is a valid strategy?[/quote]

[color=crimson]If it works, it was. If it doesn't, it wasn't.

I mean, that's the best answer I can think of, lol.[/color]

[quote name='vegeta rocker']DO you think it will solve anything? [/quote]

[color=crimson]I think that it will have an affect on the outcome of the bill in question. I don't think the protests really presented a 'solution', just a rejection of the solution that has been given.

There is little to make me believe that I can understand why illegal immigrants do as they do but there are ramifications to their actions. I will say that the [strike]ethnocentric pigs[/strike] people in this thread should feel contentment with their reasonably serene lives in the lower/upper middle class within their respective countries. The luck of many others seems to pale in comparison.

It's too bad you can't just help everyone. The world isn't that simplistic, not that idealistic. Immigration needs to be regulated somehow but the regulations can't forget the foundation that the country was built upon, the ideas that we believe to be 'American' [or Western]- freedom, tolerance, acceptance and.. whatever else we spurt out as our own.

Pessimistically, this seems like just the sort of problem for Democrats and Republicans to mishandle, lol.[/color]

[Shwa]

Yeah, this is an interesting topic. I was watching the protest on TV and was surprised by how many hispanic and other immigrants were in different states. I'm Puerto-Rican but born on American soil, but people ask me why I'm not martching in the protest and I gave them two answers:

1. I dont feel like traveling to a different state to protest over something
2. I dont think it'll solve anything

With my responce to #2, i honestly dont think its going to resolve anything. People have their views on immigration and some of them are really ignorant. Not everyone is going to just open up and give a hug to the next person who comes into the state who cannot speak English. But thats the way people are, not all but most of them. I'm not saying I dont approvce of the protest or anything like that, those people who are marching right now are concerned for their families and friends and possible themselves and they have the right to express it however they want to. I'm just saying (in my mind) that I dont think it's going to wi the hearts of the people so easily.

Now then, KatanaViolet mentioned something that really caught my attention when she said "The American Dream" and "The Land of the Free". Pretty much the U.S is all that and more, that is why people flock over here to achieve that, no matter what thier social or historical backrounds are or where they come from. If it's not the "Land of the Free", then what is it? The land of the ignorant and selfish??

Not to mention you all have to remember, the caucasian populations are immigrants as well, so just remember that. The only ones who are not are the Native Americans, so stop thinking your the supiror people and remember you all moved over here from Europe.....pwned!

[Doukeshi]

[SIZE=1]Btw, I am British so I have a slightly distorted view on the whole thing, but hey we have immigration problems in Britain too.

[quote name='Mage17']Not to mention you all have to remember, the caucasian populations are immigrants as well, so just remember that. The only ones who are not are the Native Americans, so stop thinking your the supiror people and remember you all moved over here from Europe.....pwned![/quote]

That is not the point we are making. I am not against migrants in general. People who come into the country from others provide a wealth of knowledge, culture and many other things with them. Thats great, really it is. But then you have people coming in illegally who don't have to pay taxes, who exploit the system. No I don't care where you came from or why you're coming here. That is not my problem.

It is not our perogative to be shacking up any down and out who comes along, I'm sorry but there's better things to be worrying about.

Let me tell you a few things.

In Britain, where I am from. You are not allowed to fly the the cross of St George, the English flag in case people coming from other countries are offended. In case [I]they[/I] are [i]offended[/i] by the very flag that represents the country they have come to stay in. You can fly the flag of any other country you like, but fly the English flag and its branded offensive.

[quote name='DeathKnight]I will say that the [strike]ethnocentric pigs[/strike'] people in this thread should feel contentment with their reasonably serene lives in the lower/upper middle class within their respective countries. The luck of many others seems to pale in comparison. [/quote]

DK I'm surprised at you, you don't need to resort to insults. Problems in the lower classes are what governments should be focusing on instead of allowing illegal immigrants to make the problem worse.

Lets narrow this down a little with a slightly less broad, hypothetical example.

You wake up one morning and a fellow is sitting on your couch watching your TV. It appears that he got in by breaking the lock on your door. He isn't doing anything harmful as such at the moment, just sitting watching TV and eating a piece of toast. You go up to him and ask him what he is doing. He says that he has come to live in your house because it is better than his. You ask him to leave, he refuses and then asks you to get him another slice of toast. You go to work, leaving the man there. When you get back there are four more people sitting in your living room. They have also come to your house because they do not like their own. The word spreads and soon your house is full of people who prefer it over theirs, you can't get moved, you're sleeping on the floor because a woman with her child has taken your bed. More still come.

It isn't quite like that at the moment, but it could be.

[quote name='KatanaViolet']Perhaps I misunderstood you Doukeshi, but blatantly stating that these people don't have a right to become citizens is, in my opinion, appalling. [/quote]

I'm not saying that they don't have a right to become citizens. What I am saying is that, giving people who have entered the country in an illegal manner the same opportunity to become citizens as those who go through the legal channels is unfair. Illegal immegrants have the advantage of already living in the country their applying citizenship for, having snuck in under cover of darkness.

Prehaps if there are so many problems in the country they are fleeing, instead of abandoning it, they should do something about it.[/SIZE]

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]Ugh, DeathKnight, get off your high-horse and stop [i]attacking[/i] the people in this thread just because they have a different view point than you! Honestly!

I must say I agree with Doukeshi. And he got to my point first, so I suppose I'll just add on to it.

KatanaViolet, I see your point. I do think they have a right to be in the country, but let's look at this realistically, shall we?

Q- Why do they want to come over here so bad?

A- Because there are problems in Mexico.

Q- How do you stop them from coming over illegaly?

A- Solve the problems in Mexico.

Q- How do you solve the problems in Mexico?

A- Stop making things easy for illegal aliens! If they really all were stuck down there, they'd DO something about the living situation, rather than just coming over here.

Q- Why would they bother staying at home and fighting there, when they can just get across the border and they're home-free?

A- They wouldn't.

Game. Set. Match. We're essentially not helping them at all by letting them come over here illegally, but we're only hurting our economy and crippling ourselves.

If they want to actually WORK at becoming a citizen, learn the language, and be legal, then more power to 'em![/size]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Doukeshi][SIZE=1']DK I'm surprised at you, you don't need to resort to insults.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]I didn't need to but I wanted to.[/color]

[quote name='Doukeshi][SIZE=1']It isn't quite like that at the moment, but it could be.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]For stealing a piece of toast that is mine I'm afraid the penalty is steep. I'm quite fond of toast.[/color]

[quote name='Doukeshi][SIZE=1']I'm not saying that they don't have a right to become citizens. What I am saying is that, giving people who have entered the country in an illegal manner the same opportunity to become citizens as those who go through the legal channels is unfair. Illegal immegrants have the advantage of already living in the country their applying citizenship for, having snuck in under cover of darkness.[/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]I don't disagree. As I said, this isn't an idealistic world where being a good samaritan to every single person is possible. In fact, after calling you all on your ethnocentric tendencies, I offered the opinion that it should be regulated, lol. Heavily, if necessary. Pragmatism before idealism.

Just, be content with what you have. You don't have to be one of these illegal immigrants, you're somewhat better off. Fixate on that part of my post than the part where I offended your pride, lol.[/color]

[quote name='sakurasuka][size=1]Ugh, DeathKnight, get off your high-horse and stop [i]attacking[/i'] the people in this thread just because they have a different view point than you![/quote][/size]

[color=crimson]*hug* :p[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=Sienna][quote name='vegeta rocker']I was wondering what you guys thought about the immigrants protesting and not going to work this past Monday.[/quote]Honestly I think it?s a bit like watching a five year old throw a temper tantrum when they realize that they can?t just take something off the shelf at the store and keep it. They think that since they got into the store and took the item they should be allowed to keep it even if it?s breaking the law. I?m not against legal immigration.[QUOTE=Doukeshi][SIZE=1]Lets narrow this down a little with a slightly less broad, hypothetical example.

You wake up one morning and a fellow is sitting on your couch watching your TV. It appears that he got in by breaking the lock on your door. He isn't doing anything harmful as such at the moment, just sitting watching TV and eating a piece of toast. You go up to him and ask him what he is doing. He says that he has come to live in your house because it is better than his. You ask him to leave, he refuses and then asks you to get him another slice of toast. You go to work, leaving the man there. When you get back there are four more people sitting in your living room. They have also come to your house because they do not like their own. The word spreads and soon your house is full of people who prefer it over theirs, you can't get moved, you're sleeping on the floor because a woman with her child has taken your bed. More still come.

It isn't quite like that at the moment, but it could be. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]That?s the exact nature of the problem. It?s not an attitude of attempting to end immigration but rather to not reward those who didn?t go through the process of legally becoming a citizen. The moment you let this happen is the moment illegal immigration will become a serious problem. Not to mention it?s terribly unfair to those who have taken the time to legally enter the country. [QUOTE=Mage17]Now then, KatanaViolet mentioned something that really caught my attention when she said "The American Dream" and "The Land of the Free". Pretty much the U.S is all that and more, that is why people flock over here to achieve that, no matter what thier social or historical backrounds are or where they come from. If it's not the "Land of the Free", then what is it? The land of the ignorant and selfish??

Not to mention you all have to remember, the caucasian populations are immigrants as well, so just remember that. The only ones who are not are the Native Americans, so stop thinking your the supiror people and remember you all moved over here from Europe.....pwned![/QUOTE]How about The land of the educated? Think about it. If you blindly open your borders to immigration and millions of people come over all at once, the economy will not support it. America has the capacity to support quite a few people, but it takes time to build homes, grow food and develop jobs to support everyone. It would be like moving 50 people into a section of your town that?s only set up to support 30. Which is why people have to take the time to immigrate legally.

As for the comment chastising Caucasians for being immigrants whether recent or in the past; that?s a [I]Wag the Dog [/I]tactic that doesn?t change the current issue. Besides there are probably quite a few immigrants in that statement who took the time to enter the country legally. If you follow the logic that since other immigrants entered the country illegally and got away with it; I should too? well? then pretty much [I]any[/I] argument about upholding the law is pointless.[/COLOR]

[KatanaViolet]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]
KatanaViolet, I see your point. I do think they have a right to be in the country, but let's look at this realistically, shall we?

Q- Why do they want to come over here so bad?

A- Because there are problems in Mexico.

Q- How do you stop them from coming over illegaly?

A- Solve the problems in Mexico.

Q- How do you solve the problems in Mexico?

A- Stop making things easy for illegal aliens! If they really all were stuck down there, they'd DO something about the living situation, rather than just coming over here.

Q- Why would they bother staying at home and fighting there, when they can just get across the border and they're home-free?

A- They wouldn't.

Game. Set. Match. We're essentially not helping them at all by letting them come over here illegally, but we're only hurting our economy and crippling ourselves.

If they want to actually WORK at becoming a citizen, learn the language, and be legal, then more power to 'em![/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Yea, but it's not that black and white you guys. For starters, if you want to solve problems in Mexico, you're going to have to solve the problems in your own country first. It's not immigrants that are ruining the economy, it's the war in Iraq. Secondly, I don't think that's the core issue.
It's the immigration policies that are in place.
Something is making it so that these people have no other option.

And another point that kind of bugs me. Why is it "They have to learn our language?" Why not make America friendly to outsiders by teaching foreign languages in schools? Surely the must do that? Have a spanish class for those who don't speak spanish, especially in areas that have a large hispanic population, and those that do can learn english.
Americans need to be more openminded methinks.

Like I allready said, there has to be a way so its easier, and safer for people on both sides of the border.

Closing the borders, deporting thousands of people, or parading in the streets... none of these are going to solve the problem.
I think what the people who did the march were trying to prove is that they are a MASSIVE part of American society, and who are you guys to rob that from them? At least, that's the message that I got. But still, that's not going to solve the issue.

One thing I will agree with DeathKnight on, is that we all have easier lives than any of them. So either way, understanding is difficult.
Like I said, we don't know where they came from.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[size=1]No one has mentioned the fact that nearly half the American economy is running off the sweat of the immigrant. On the day they stayed home from work, half (or more) of food processing plants for companies had to shut down. Entire construction firms were out of business. Without them, America stops -- I think that's what the strike day taught us. Sure, life went on as usual for most folks, but imagine the long-term effect of having half our manual-labor jobs stop. This is the thing no one is doing.

Everyone says to lock down the borders, to ship 'em out and let 'em eat sand. Sure, we can do that. However, everyone pushing for that should also own up to the fact that our plummeting economy would take a nose-dive.

I don't think I'll even break out the "America was founded on immigrants" argument, since no one really listens to that anyway. No one really wants to own up to the double standard being set here -- People want immigration to be legal, and once they get here, lock down the borders and keep them dirty mexicans away from our precious country. Essentially, that's what you're saying. Your ancestors probably fled Europe for one reason or another -- The Great Potato Famine, WWI, WWII, whatever, and it's a relatively similar dynamic occuring in South America.

[B]Edit:[/B]

...In retrospect, I did end up breaking out the "America was founded on immigrants" argument. Funny how things work.

[B]Edit 2:[/B]

As for the "Speak English, you're in America now," that really bugs me. This is precisely why no one likes America. No one likes our pig-headed, narrow-minded, isolationist point of view of the world. Take Europe, for example; most Europeans know two or more languages, and they're completely fine with not speaking their native language in their country. I just think that although they are coming here, and illegally at that, we should still have an open mind and meet them half-way.

And thinking about it now, alot of Hispanics know English... at least as much as they'd use at work. On top of that, does America have an official language? Didn't think so.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]No one is saying that we should keep everyone out either. Obviously immigration needs to be reformed, as it?s hard for immigrants to enter the country legally. But that doesn?t mean that the answer is to allow free access either.

Also I?m going to break out the argument of drugs being brought in along with the immigrants. The problem is made far more difficult by what the immigrants bring with them. Often times, a whole family is smuggled in, including small children. And sometimes the price to the individual arranging the smuggling is paid in the form of an agreement to carry illegal drugs. It?s a problem without an easy answer.[quote name='Retribution][size=1'] On top of that, does America have an official language? Didn't think so.[/size][/quote]As for the official language bit I know that for the state of Utah it?s English. ^_^
[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue']As for the official language bit I know that for the state of Utah it?s English. ^_^[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Unfortunately, you're wrong. There is no official language, but English is the [i]de facto[/i] language. A bit of research might help. ;)

And I think that everyone agrees on the fact that our immigration laws require immediate revision. The question is which way do they need to be revised? I'd personally say we need to allow more people to become legal citizens (that's called being naturalized, right?) per-year than we currently are. That's a huge part of why people come over illegally -- because there's just no room for a Mexican family to get through.[/size]

[vegeta rocker]

Retribution, no one is saying that we don't need them. Well at least i'm not

Yeah some things shut down and it was hard for a day but the fact of the matter is that when they pass the bill its suppossed to put people who are already here straight on the path to citizenship. I think the catch is you have to have been here for a certain amount of time.

This is an issue for future immigrants, my mother and her whole family came here illegally. I am 20 yrs old and have an associates degree and am currently pursuing my Bachleors degree in digital media production. I have proven that children of illegal immigrants can become productive members of society.

But back where i am from i see the crossing over, i see the horrible deaths and crimes. If you live in a city where there are immigrants protesting for rights sure you want to help them.

But you wanna know what i see?

I see a Coyote (person that smuggles people in from mexico) taking half the money a family has to smuggle them here. If they are lucky he dumps them somewhere in Texas and tells them its Dallas. I can't count the number of people who would knock on my door asking how to get to Houston from Dallas. (I live three hours from the border!)

I lived out in the country and it was commonplace to call the border patrol to come because our stuff was getting stolen.

Then there is the possibility that the people crossing over would be unlucky, and the coyote would either leave them to die the second he though the feds were onto him, or he would convince them they owe him more money and what they paid before was only half. They would with either work as sex slaves or in horrible working conditions where they would not get paid.

they would work only to pay back what they were told they owed.

I have seen trains pulled over and abandoned rigs in my town full of women anc children left to suffocate.


We need to stop the death and exploitation and fix our borders now. We also need to go and assasinate President Fox. We can give Osama weapons and help him train people but we can't fix Mexico?

He is also now trying to legalize drugs in Mexico, the whole system is corrupt and it needs to be totally revamped. Somebody needs to do something and the first thing i do when i get enough money is i am going to shoot a documentary in Mexico.

I will show everyhing, not just what the news shows you.

[Aaryanna]

[QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]As for the official language bit I know that for the state of Utah it?s English. ^_^
[/COLOR][/QUOTE][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Unfortunately, you're wrong. There is no official language, but English is the [i]de facto[/i] language. A bit of research might help. ;)
[/size][/QUOTE][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue]Actually I did research it. ^_~ Take a look here: [URL=http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/JWcrawford/UT-EO.htm][COLOR=DarkSlateBlue][U]ENGLISH AS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE OF UTAH[/U][/COLOR] [/URL] It was passed by voters on November 7, 2000. [/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[color=crimson]Federally there is no 'official language' given, the de facto language is obviously English for business/political manners. Several states/territories have an official language. Interestingly New Mexico and Puerto Rico are both officially bilingual between Spanish and English. Of course to become a naturalized citizen you have to show fluency in English- writing, reading, etc.[/color]

[Anime Elf]

Where to begin with the subject of [B]ILLEGAL[/B] immigration? Ah yes, the name says it all. Yes, illegal immigrants should be punished for committing an illegal ("prohibited by law") action. At the moment, aren't multiple planes filled with illegal immigrants being flown to Central America every day?

Anyway, I do think it is selfish of people breaking the law demanding not to be punished for it. Okay, they snuck in here because they're so close. America lets in less than one million immigrants a year for a reason. There are people who have been waiting up to [I]twenty years [/I] to get into the United States, and we have illegal immigrants who can come over just because they happen to share a border. That hardly seems fair to those not breaking the law, but that's just me.

Another thing that bugs me is that people claim that illegal immigrants take jobs Americans won't. Well, we do have a nice sized poplulation on welfare that are citizens who are legally allowed to be here, so why don't they take the jobs? We need to fix our own problems as a country, so why not tackle poverty among the United State's own citizens?

Also, I'm pretty sick of the "everyone's decended from a Eurpean immigrant" shtick. My family tree comes from Native Americans and Africans didn't exactally come here to escape persecuation. So no, not everyone in the United States is decended from persecuted Europeans. And most of the ones who are had ancestors who came over legally.

As for English, yes I do think that here in the United States where the unofficial official language is English, immigrants should have (and I'm glad to become a citizen you have to) at least a good grasp on the English language. I'm sure if it really becomes an issue, Congress can make English the official language. When I go into another country, I do my best to use my knowledge of their language whenever I can (Spanish, French, etc.) or try to learn at least a few phrases to get by or go with a friend who speaks the language because I respect the different cultures and don't go in expecting everyone to speak English.

I'm not going on some right-wing narrow-minded rant. I'm ranting about how those breaking the law are complaining because they have the chance to here while others who are willing to follow the law can't get in because they aren't in the country right next to a U.S. border.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Anime Elf]Where to begin with the subject of [B]ILLEGAL[/B'] immigration? Ah yes, the name says it all. Yes, illegal immigrants should be punished for committing an illegal ("prohibited by law") action. At the moment, aren't multiple planes filled with illegal immigrants being flown to Central America every day?[/quote][size=1]Is something right simply because it is the law? In Nazi Germany, it was illegal to help Jews escape persecution. By your logic, you should be punished for breaking that law. In any event, it wouldn't surprise me if our government were flying people back down every day, but those are tax-dollars wasted on a relatively pointless activity. Instead of blowing those thousands/millions on jet fuel, the jet itself, pilots, etc., you could have tried to help out the US of A.

[QUOTE]Anyway, I do think it is selfish of people breaking the law demanding not to be punished for it. Okay, they snuck in here because they're so close. America lets in less than one million immigrants a year for a reason. There are people who have been waiting up to [I]twenty years [/I] to get into the United States, and we have illegal immigrants who can come over just because they happen to share a border. That hardly seems fair to those not breaking the law, but that's just me.[/QUOTE]
America lets in some terribly low number of people per-year, and the lettuce farmer isn't going to be at the top of that long, long list waiting to get in. Because we have quotas, people are driven to illegally immigrate to here. I mean, if you were starving, would you like to stick around for 20 more years to come here legally? I think not. This is why it is essential that we increase the number of allowed immigrants per-year. I honestly don't think much else will change things.

[QUOTE]Another thing that bugs me is that people claim that illegal immigrants take jobs Americans won't. Well, we do have a nice sized poplulation on welfare that are citizens who are legally allowed to be here, so why don't they take the jobs? We need to fix our own problems as a country, so why not tackle poverty among the United State's own citizens?[/QUOTE]
Last I checked, the welfare state was on welfare because they either couldn't or didn't want to take the jobs that immigrants are taking. Talk to the welfare state, man. If they start moving towards wanting to work, then they won't need to be on welfare ... do you see where I'm going here? Immigrants [i]do[/i] take the jobs no one else wants -- who wants to pick tomatos and lettuce all day, everyday? Perhaps meat packaging and processing is more up your alley? I think not. Immigrants make up a huge percentage of our agricultural business in America.

[QUOTE]Also, I'm pretty sick of the "everyone's decended from a Eurpean immigrant" shtick. My family tree comes from Native Americans and Africans didn't exactally come here to escape persecuation. So no, not everyone in the United States is decended from persecuted Europeans. And most of the ones who are had ancestors who came over legally.[/QUOTE]
You're right, however our nation was founded on persecuted Europeans. Reading the Constitution would reveal this to anyone -- that people come here to escape persecution and poverty for a new life. Furthermore, I don't see you yelling at all those immigrants that hopped over during the Great Potato Famine. Yeah, they came legally -- we also didn't have quota laws back then. See my point? We lessen quota laws, we can have legal immigrants.

[QUOTE]As for English, yes I do think that here in the United States where the unofficial official language is English, immigrants should have (and I'm glad to become a citizen you have to) at least a good grasp on the English language. I'm sure if it really becomes an issue, Congress can make English the official language. When I go into another country, I do my best to use my knowledge of their language whenever I can (Spanish, French, etc.) or try to learn at least a few phrases to get by or go with a friend who speaks the language because I respect the different cultures and don't go in expecting everyone to speak English.[/QUOTE]
Fair enough. I don't really feel all that passionately about this.

[QUOTE]I'm not going on some right-wing narrow-minded rant. I'm ranting about how those breaking the law are complaining because they have the chance to here while others who are willing to follow the law can't get in because they aren't in the country right next to a U.S. border.[/QUOTE]
Oh really? lol. Tell a starving family to follow the law and wait twenty years before coming to America. I'm sure they'll take it in stride and suck it up. ;)[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[QUOTE=Athena][size=1]

I'm in total agreement with him and Doukeshi. I'm not racist, I'm not prejudice, but how can anyone expect to be given rights when they are [b]not[/b] a legal citizen? It's irritating to go to an [b]American[/b] restaurant and not [b]one[/b] worker can speak English.

If you want American freedom, if you want that "American Dream", by all means have it. But don't take advantage, don't f**king abuse the system. There are ways to get American citizenship. It takes time, but that's how it works--and it'd be legal.[/size][/QUOTE]


[color=#9933ff][font=lucida handwriting]I'm very much in angreement with the first paragraph because I usually have to end up working with the people who speak spanish right infront of me when I know perfectly well that they can speak english. Personally I think that's rude.

I've also had to deal with trying to remember my scant knowledge of spanish to ask directions when I was in Texas because even tho this woman lived in the US she didn't speak a word of english. It's pretty damn annoying.

Okay that said I think that people who want to be citizens have a right to try and be citizens. But quit sneaking over the damn boarders into the country and convieniantly forgetting to find out if there are ESL (English for Speakers of Other Laungages) classes in your area. I'm all for being bi-lingual and having the right to live in the country. I'm for giving assylum if someone's life is endangered of living in their homeland. But if there's a chance you can make your homeland better and aren't in danger, please make the effort to do so.

I have a question myself. What do people think about student Visas or working visas?[/color][/font]