Gay Marriage and President Bush

[Caine]

[QUOTE=Gavin][SIZE=1]
As I've said earlier in the thread, the way the world is becoming such a secular place with no time for spirituality is something that genuinely concerns me, now whether that spirituality be Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, Jewish, Muslim or any other religion doesn't matter, but I feel people are losing touch with the fact that there is something far greater out there than any of us and people are beginning to forget that. Which is why I feel spirituality of some description is important for people, and perhaps I've let that cloud my opinion on this issue. I think it's a case that my beliefs are such an integral part of me, and so bound to the history of Ireland by blood, that it's very difficult to look at any issue from a purely secular point of view.[/SIZE]
You aren't the only one who struggles with the lack of spirituality in this world. It is sad, but as far as I've seen the best way to spread spirituality is to preach to those who are open to it and set an example for all. If you become a priest (we certainly could use more). You can't spread it by force or argument, only by example and talking to those who are open to it. I know you appologize for how harsh you were, but if anybody should be appologizing, it isn't you. We weren't all that respectful of you sometimes, and you handled it better than I would have. (not that that's saying a whole lot)


[SIZE=1]Well I was talking about it from a Catholic point of view, by which anyone can seek forgiveness for sins by going to Confession, so actually seeking redemption is something anyone can do if they believe. You're right of course in the fact I've been sounding like a dogmatic evangelist rather than a concerned future-priest, at least hopefully future-priest, although I believe a friend may be right when she says I am too rigid in my application of beliefs.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
1) how long until you enter the seminary, how long before you become a deacon, how long until you become a priest? If there's anything you think is wrong with your application of beliefs, that's a lot of time with some good examples of how to be better.
2) Good luck with whatever you do, whether you want to be a priest or not.

[Gavin]

[QUOTE=Caine]1) how long until you enter the seminary, how long before you become a deacon, how long until you become a priest? If there's anything you think is wrong with your application of beliefs, that's a lot of time with some good examples of how to be better.
2) Good luck with whatever you do, whether you want to be a priest or not.[/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Well this is lightly off topic but, it's two years until I finish high school, after which I enter the seminary, not sure how long I'm there before being made deacon, but I'll have to be at least twenty-five to be ordained as a priest. So basically the next five years after high school will be training in the seminary. And thanks for the good luck wish.[/SIZE]

[James]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I think that if you wish to spread spirituality, you need to ensure that it is inclusive and not exclusive. Telling gay people that they cannot marry based on your own religious beliefs is only going to alienate more people from a particular faith.

There's one basic element of unfairness about this issue that I really notice - and perhaps others are not especially aware of it - but it really stands out in my mind.

Think about it on a very basic level. If two gay people marry, what does this mean for religious people and those who disagree with the concept? It means very little at the end of the day. Sure, you may not like it or approve of it, but in a free society it is your choice to have that position (and not to participate). More importantly, if two gay people marry, this does not violate your rights, nor does it impede you in any legal sense.

But what if you put the shoe on the other foot? If you allow something like this to be dictated by a religious perspective - a personal perspective of faith - what ultimately happens? Yeah, one group of people get what they want, but another group's rights are then violated and there is no sense of equality. So one group's beliefs have a [i]direct impact[/i] on the lives of many others.

I do not think that anyone is saying a gay marriage should have to happen in a church, or that churches or religions should be forced to observe them. A religious organization is, by default, a private organization with its own members. In the same way that a club or another group might have certain policies or ideals, a religious organization is capable of deciding what it wants to pursue and what it wants to reject. Gay marriage does not have to interfere with that.

All that's being said is that gay people have the same [i]legal[/i] rights as straight people. This does not and should not have to intersect with faith whatsoever.

It's like divorce. Devout catholics may not approve of this practice, yet for our society it is considered to be a necessary legal channel for some people. In a divorce proceeding, the church is not involved; that is to say, the church has no involvement regarding the legalities or whatever. So the church can maintain its stance and people who disagree with that stance can still have the freedoms they deserve.

That's what it comes down to, at the end of the day - one group dictating to another. You cannot have equality or tolerance in society if you allow this to occur. Gay marriage does not have to mean a diminishment of religion or diminished rights for anyone else - on the contrary, it simply seeks to provide basic legal coverage for a segment of society that has been discriminated against for far too long.[/font]

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]

[i]Thank[/i] you, James.

I haven't been on OB much in the past few weeks, so when I saw this thread, I was dumbfounded.

Why would anyone want to bring up this subject again? Honestly. All it does is cause confrontation, up until the point someone says something out of line and it gets closed.

And it'd be nice if everyone would stop bashing Gavin simply because he believes something different than you. He wasn't trying to force his beliefs on you, he was just saying that his beliefs do not condone homosexuality. That is [u]fine[/u].

People will always look down on other people for what they think/believe/don't believe. People will always get obnoxious and out of line and bash homosexuals, or bomb abortion clinics. That's how it will always be.

And from the other side, most people generalize Christians and bash them.

Only when the two sides learn to cut it out will we ever get along.

Onto the actual subject.

Bush. Hm. I both love and hate the guy. I do not agree with his views on Gay Marriage. I don't really agree with much of his views on anything.

I do, however, think he's done his best. I think this whole 'Ban on Gay Marriage' isn't right, it isn't fair, and all people should have the same right to commit themselves to another person.

Marriage isn't about discrimination. It isn't about race or politics or personal gain or religion or age. It isn't about gender. Marriage is about making a lifelong commitment to the person you love.

[/size]

[Retribution]

[size=1][quote name='sakurasuka][size=1']Why would anyone want to bring up this subject again? Honestly. All it does is cause confrontation, up until the point someone says something out of line and it gets closed.[/size][/quote]
If you never have conflict, if you always shy away from the disturbing or confrontational, nothing gets done. You live in a small box where everyone agrees and nothing changes.[quote][size=1]And it'd be nice if everyone would stop bashing Gavin simply because he believes something different than you. He wasn't trying to force his beliefs on you, he was just saying that his beliefs do not condone homosexuality. That is [u]fine[/u].[/size][/quote]No one was really bashing Gavin, and while he wasn't trying to force his beliefs on [i]us[/i], he was basically going to be forcing his Catholic morals on others, which is the same as forcing beliefs on you. It's unfortunately shades of gray, not black and white.[quote][size=1]People will always look down on other people for what they think/believe/don't believe. People will always get obnoxious and out of line and bash homosexuals, or bomb abortion clinics. That's how it will always be.[/size][/quote]So let's not try to change it by urging tolerance and acceptance. It's just how it's going to be.[/size]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']In all honesty I fear I've been being far too dogmatic in my application of my beliefs while at the same time missing the equally vital respect and compassion that is preached, I suppose it's just the frustration perhaps of being the only one of this side of the issue while at the same time finding myself unable to reconcile with the fact that I may be being genuinely discriminatory against people for something they simply can't help. It's never been my intention to insult anyone else by voicing my beliefs, nor making people who are homosexual feel somehow wrong or evil, and if I have then I am sincerely sorry for it.[/SIZE][/quote]I wouldn?t say that you are the only one who feels homosexuality is wrong, I too believe it is wrong, but it is a fine line to walk between feeing someone else?s behavior is incorrect due to religious teachings vs. using those same religious teachings to actually determine how others can or cannot live. Although the situations differ a bit they are part of why I find myself fighting for something I feel is wrong.

Before I was born a number of my relatives decided to switch religions. They went from being Catholic to being members of the LDS/Mormon church. The neighbors, alarmed by the change actually reported them to the Ku Klux Klan who spent weeks openly watching them wearing the costumes associated with that sad organization. Nothing ever happened and they eventually left them alone, but the very idea of being persecuted for changing their beliefs was frightening and my parents told me that it made them very uncomfortable that they were watched for doing something different. No one should feel persecuted for living by what they believe in or because of their sexual orientation.[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']Again I'd like to apologise to anyone who took offence from my previous replies, I know it's not an excuse but perhaps ironically enough I've found it hard to discuss the fact I wish to become a priest with my own family. Out of the three children I was the only one likely to go to college, something neither my mother or father did, and there seems to be an onus on having me "live" before I make the commitment of entering the seminary. I've been probably transferring this fear and anger into my posts on this topic, making them harsher and much less in keeping with my usual respectful and sincere manner. I truly don't have anything against anyone who is homosexual, they're all people like everyone else and as deserving of their pursuit of happiness, and I suppose unless they make the choice to believe what I believe, I'm very wrong to try to stop them pursuing their happiness in whatever form it takes.[/quote]That?s wonderful that you intend to become a priest and I wish you the very best in doing so. I?m also glad to hear you mention how it?s important to see homosexuals as people. And though it might be wrong to try and make their decisions for them, by making laws and so forth, there is certainly nothing wrong with holding to your beliefs and offering those beliefs to those who are interested in taking a look. I am quite sure that there are those who are merely confused over their sexual identity instead of actually being gay/lesbian. Yes I know that?s confusing, but I was raised to belief being gay/lesbian meant you were ill and that?s something that hasn?t been easy to overcome. I still don?t know what I believe as to why people are that way, but I do know I do not have the right to make their choices for them.

I guess that comes from watching my own children. At some point you have to let go and respect their right to make their own choices, whether or not you think they are correct. They need to make their own mistakes. Whether or not being gay/lesbian is a mistake or not is not up to me to decide. And it certainly isn?t my place to tell them they can?t have the same right to be married that I have.

Moving on you stated the points very well James. Short of simply repeating what you said I agree with how you have explained it.[quote name='sakurasuka]People will always look down on other people for what they think/believe/don't believe. People will always get obnoxious and out of line and bash homosexuals, or bomb abortion clinics. That's how it will always be.[/size][/QUOTE][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1']So let's not try to change it by urging tolerance and acceptance. It's just how it's going to be.[/size][/quote]I agree with Retribution on this point. Taking a stance of that?s how it will always be would mean nothing changes or becomes better. You have to challenge the system to initiate change. And such challenges are likely to cause conflict of some sort.

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]

Alrighty. I do believe you missunderstand me.

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']If you never have conflict, if you always shy away from the disturbing or confrontational, nothing gets done. You live in a small box where everyone agrees and nothing changes.[/size][/quote]

Understand, an argument on a message board only causes confrontation. If someone were to actually do something about it, that's great.

But what's argued about on OB isn't going to change anything. I was just saying that this sort of topic always go bad once some radical Christian or some offended person gets involved. The thread then gets closed. So why even bring it up again? It's been argued to death and niether side EVER EVER EVER budges.

That's all I was saying. Not that we shouldn't confront issues, we most certainly should... But arguing here only causes hurt feelings, closed threads, and a possible banning, seeing as Gay Marriage and Abortion threads never seem to stay civil.

Okay?

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']So let's not try to change it by urging tolerance and acceptance. It's just how it's going to be.[/size][/quote]

[quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']I agree with Retribution on this point. Taking a stance of that?s how it will always be would mean nothing changes or becomes better. You have to challenge the system to initiate change. And such challenges are likely to cause conflict of some sort.[/quote]

Why is everyone so obsessed with some sort of radical [i]change[/i]?

You say you have to challenge the system to initiate change. Well, why can't you be civil about it? Or passive? Why must you be aggressive and obnoxious? Why does everyone want to change everyone else?

I urge tolerance and acceptance, yes. I have come to realize that there will always be discrimination, but that's something I as a person can't change. I can't change someone else. I can only set an example. So that's what I do.

Being 'in-your-face' isn't neccesary. Conflict is rarely neccesary. Just live your own life the best you can, and stop trying to make others see things how you do. You can't. People will always have opinions different than yours.

Look, I'm bisexual, and quite honestly, I wouldn't care if I couldn't get married to the man/woman. If the government told me 'Y'know, you're not allowed to marry your girlfriend/boyfriend/fiance. Deal with it.'

I'd probably just keep living with the person, keep loving them. Buy rings maybe. Have my own celebration, hell, even call it a 'wedding' if I wanted. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live me life.

I don't need to have the church/state issue me a marriage licence to love and commit myself to someone, and I pity the people who do.

Also, we all live, and we all die. Who the hell cares if you can't legally wed someone of your same sex and take on thier name? Once you're dead, you're dead.

Yeah, we all deserve equal rights, but the system isn't perfect. We all get screwed over eventually. Either live with it, or go start a petition or something.

Arguing here won't change it.

[/size]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]Understand, an argument on a message board only causes confrontation. If someone were to actually do something about it, that's great.

But what's argued about on OB isn't going to change anything. I was just saying that this sort of topic always go bad once some radical Christian or some offended person gets involved. The thread then gets closed. So why even bring it up again? It's been argued to death and niether side EVER EVER EVER budges.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]Yes, you're right. But it's the general principle of submission in the face of conflict. I know that debating on OB really does nothing, but it's the principle of standing up for your beliefs when they're under fire.

[quote][size=1]Why is everyone so obsessed with some sort of radical [i]change[/i]?

You say you have to challenge the system to initiate change. Well, why can't you be civil about it? Or passive? Why must you be aggressive and obnoxious? Why does everyone want to change everyone else?

I urge tolerance and acceptance, yes. I have come to realize that there will always be discrimination, but that's something I as a person can't change. I can't change someone else. I can only set an example. So that's what I do.

Being 'in-your-face' isn't neccesary. Conflict is rarely neccesary. Just live your own life the best you can, and stop trying to make others see things how you do. You can't. People will always have opinions different than yours.[/size][/quote]
I certainly am being civil in this debate. Radical change is also rarely necessary. Being passive can rarely inspire change. I relate passivity to water; it takes the path of least resistance, and in order to change things, one must face the rocks above to inspire change, not flow through the cracks. Being aggressive and obnoxious is unintended, and I'm very sorry if I come off as such. Unfortunately, we do not live in an ideal world where we can all completely accept one another's points of view. We always see our point of view as more enlightened than the next man's. This is one of those holes in human nature.

You can never completely eliminate discrimination, but you can speak out against it. You can stand up and be counted and fight for justice rather than just being an "example" in a small isolated box. I can be an example for non-discrimination by not discriminating, but that is not good enough. In addition to just not discriminating, one must also fight for justice and attempt to sway others points of view. This is where the "why must we try to change others?" comes in. Without an alterance in point of view, well, I'd still be drinking from a "Colored" fountain.

No, being "in-your-face" isn't necessary, but it is certainly necessary to bring the issues to the table. Conflict occurs every day without you knowing it, and it isn't really unpleasant. You seem to be stretching debate and civil talks out of proportion and labeling it all uncivil, rude, or in-your-face. People having different opinions than yours makes the world move forward. With a continuously agreeable society, you have mindlessness, you have complete and point-blank face-value acceptance, you have 1984. Progress is made only through conflict and struggle... this doesn't need to be violent or physical or hateful, either.

[quote][size=1]Look, I'm bisexual, and quite honestly, I wouldn't care if I couldn't get married to the man/woman. If the government told me 'Y'know, you're not allowed to marry your girlfriend/boyfriend/fiance. Deal with it.'

I'd probably just keep living with the person, keep loving them. Buy rings maybe. Have my own celebration, hell, even call it a 'wedding' if I wanted. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live me life.

I don't need to have the church/state issue me a marriage licence to love and commit myself to someone, and I pity the people who do.

Also, we all live, and we all die. Who the hell cares if you can't legally wed someone of your same sex and take on thier name? Once you're dead, you're dead.

Yeah, we all deserve equal rights, but the system isn't perfect. We all get screwed over eventually. Either live with it, or go start a petition or something.[/size][/QUOTE]
Tell me that once you realize you're being shorted out of all the marital benefits that straight couples are getting. Tell me that once you realize that you're both human and deserve the same rights. Tax benefits, hospitality visits, the list goes on. You're seriously belittling the difference in rights between a straight couple and a gay couple.

In retrospect, why did you bother to reply to my post if there's no point? Why worry about what I think? You can't change my mind, and all it does is create unnecessary, unproductive tension.[/size]

[James]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]
Look, I'm bisexual, and quite honestly, I wouldn't care if I couldn't get married to the man/woman. If the government told me 'Y'know, you're not allowed to marry your girlfriend/boyfriend/fiance. Deal with it.'

I'd probably just keep living with the person, keep loving them. Buy rings maybe. Have my own celebration, hell, even call it a 'wedding' if I wanted. I don't need anyone to tell me how to live me life.

I don't need to have the church/state issue me a marriage licence to love and commit myself to someone, and I pity the people who do.

Also, we all live, and we all die. Who the hell cares if you can't legally wed someone of your same sex and take on thier name? Once you're dead, you're dead.

Yeah, we all deserve equal rights, but the system isn't perfect. We all get screwed over eventually. Either live with it, or go start a petition or something.

Arguing here won't change it.

[/size][/QUOTE]

[font=franklin gothic medium]I agree that arguing here changes nothing, but I do think it's worth stating one's views and at least explaining the other side of it - particularly when it is so vastly misunderstood.

Let me lay out a scenario that might explain my point of view a little more. I am in a same sex relationship and my partner is a registered nurse. So he is often in situations that can be dangerous - only a couple of weeks ago he had to do an assessment at a house where a man was living with his nearly-90-year-old mother. He man was mentally ill and was extremely violent. My partner had to take a needle filled with a strong sedative, as a back-up, in case this guy got violent. Only a day before, this guy had called his office and threatened to kill him if he ever visited the house.

If my partner were to be seriously injured or killed during his job, I would not automatically be contacted. Due to the fact that I have no legal recourse, I would hear nothing - the only way I'd know is because he wouldn't come home and I'd have to call the police or ring hospitals one by one or something.

Imagine how horrible that is for a person. Because I have no legal recourse, I am the last to know about something like that. Granted, at his job I am now listed as his next of kin...but the fact remains that if he were seriously injured during work, I may not even be able to visit him in hospital because I'm "not family".

So, while the marriage issue may seem trivial to some, it is a [i]serious rights issue[/i] for many people. It's not about everyone recognizing or tolerating your relationship. It's not about the church or religion. It's about stuff like this; day-to-day basic rights and quality of life.

While I agree with you that the piece of paper or the ceremony is ultimately only as important as you make it...I must also say that when you are in a serious, longterm relationship...you come to understand how important these legal protections are. Without them, you are definitely not an equal citizen. And there are times where you feel that in a very acute way.[/font]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='Caine']In case you didn't notice this, the difference between gay marriage and smoking is that I have to breathe in smoke from other people's cigarettes. Gay couples do not impose anything on me.[/quote]
I see you have forgoten about the Gay Banditos. They will see you soon.

In all seriousness, there is no rational reason to disapprove of homosexuality. There just isn't. I guarantee that there is a homosexual within a mile of all of us at this very moment. There is also someone that likes to lick feet within a mile of you. Who gives a ****? Why the **** should I care?

On the topic of Vatican City, it doesn't count as a true theocracy in the terms we speak of here. It doesn't worry about war or any of these issues, because it is barely beyond just being another area in Rome. Governing 900 people is nothing like governing millions.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=Sienna][QUOTE=The13thMan][FONT=Century Gothic] [COLOR=DarkOrange]So, i'm sure you've all heard that Bush is trying to get a new ammendment banning gay marriage. I'd just like to know what you guys think about the whole ordeal.

I've heard some people say that they believe that all the attention on gay marriage is just to distract people from issues like the war in Iraq or maybe the energy crisis we're currently in. What do you think?

Also i'd like to ask you guys what you think of President Bush. I think he comes off as a real moron when he's on tv, i can barely stand the way he talks. He's always got that ugly smile on his face and he keeps trying to crack lame jokes. My impression is that most of the world really dislikes Bush. [/COLOR] [/FONT][/QUOTE]Regardless of the issue I do not agree with modifying the constitution, especially if the modification is based on a religious standpoint. With so many different religious views, if one amendment is allowed it will be followed by others wanting to limit or restrict other views. It would in my opinion end up dividing the people of the US and cause nothing but pointless bickering over whose views should be followed.

As for Bush, I?ve never really cared for him. I don?t like his stance and I dislike how he seems to care more for businesses than the average person. This push to amend the constitution comes across to me as nothing but a diversion from the poor job he has done as a president. [/COLOR]

[Fyxe]

[size=1][color=slategray]Some of the insensitive and just... ignorant things I've read in this so far... has, in all honesty, made me want to cry. I know everyone has an opinion on such things, and with such a heavy topic, it just screams controversy. But, still. Wow, people have not changed much through all this, even though we've claimed to have gone through an equality evolution. What with women and African Americans(and any other races that have gone through hardships) gaining equal rights in this country. Yet, now it's directed toward homosexuality? We'll never be able to be in peace, will we? We'll always find something new to quarrel about, no matter the circumstances. Does anyone else find that pathetic?

People talk about how being homosexual is so "bad" and it goes against religion and morals. But who has set these standards? Only us, in our misunderstanding. Only us, we will always be the ones to set the standards, the expectations. Don't blame this on your religious figures; as I've heard, God accepts and loves all of his "children." According to so many people, isn't he the one who ultimately creates us? So what does that mean, if people are born naturally being homosexual? That must mean God meant it to be that way. Don't be so foolish. There are many religious people that also happen to be of different sexual orientations, and I think it's disgusting that people of their own religion would simply point fingers and claim them to be different and diseased.

Also, since when has marriage been about heterosexual love? It's simply about love. If you find someone you connect deeply with, someone you love, it doesn't matter what gender they are. Your love could be your friggin' house plant, for all I care. As long as you love that being. The only reason a male and a female being together is dubbed as "normal" is because it's essential for them to mate, to continue in our species growth. Once you have that growth, there is really no reason for you to be with that person. Humans have a higher need for company, though. We build our social status, we build relationships. For what? For love, for the need of acceptance. So WHY should it matter WHO you love or who loves you?

To me, being homosexual is normal. Sexuality should not be an issue. I know this is only a feeble cry out, because people will continue to judge. I guess we just can't help it. But I'm ashamed of that.

As for Bush: I've never liked him. Never will. In fact, I didn't like Kerry either. I rarely look into politics, but when I see Bush on the television, I simply get infuriated. All I see is a man that hardly knows what he's doing behind that podium, a man who sent us into an unnecessary war, the list goes on.

I think I've vented enough for this round. No more rants from your Bláse.[/color][/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] Man you start coming in here sporadicly and you miss all the good stuff. Let's see what havoc I can bestow. :catgirl: [/color][/font]

[quote name='Prons']I don't dig gay marriage or homosexuality. [/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Well thank you very much for your insight. I'll remember to footnote that for further use.[/color][/font]

[quote name='Prons']I also think most people hate Bush just because they love bandwagoning. Music, mvoies, pretty much the entire media is saying "Oh that Bush is a moron hick" and the masses say "Yeah? YEAH! That Bush is so stupid!" I don't really care about politics, but I think anti-bush is just a big bandwagon.[/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I didn't vote for Bush in 2000 and I didn't vote for him in 2004. I don't like Bush. I have never liked Bush. I will probably never like Bush unless when his term is over in two years he decides to become a rodeo clown.

I don't think that this whole anti-Bush thing is a bunch of band wagoning. I think that a lot of people have woken up and found out what a terrible leader he really is. And this whole attempt to out a ban on Gay Marriage was really just an attempt to distract the American public from the war in Iraq[/color][/font]

[quote name='Avenged666fold']Also isn't marriage between a man and a woman? So wouldn't giving gay people something like it but not exactly the same thing be equal? I mean really there not an equal couple. They lack the ability to make children there are laws in marriage about children. So the laws don't apply to them? Well then that's not equal is it?[/quote]


[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Avenged marriage is nothing more than an ideal that two people are expected to recognize for better or worse gender has nothing to do with it. Just ask any divorced person.

I think it's rather shallow minded to say that a same sex couple isn't an equal partnership and a heterosexual couple is. I mean who gave you that kind of power to decide that only certain couples can become equal? That to me is like saying that a woman who has an older child or is married is a better mother than I am.

And while I'm on the subject of children. There are many heterosexual couples who either can't or choose not to have children for one reason or another. Does that suddenly invalidate their relationship? Is my parent's marriage invalid or not equal to your parent's because they had to adopt? Seriously that's just wrong. [/color][/font]

[color=#99cc44][font=lucida handwriting]Ok my own views on Bush and Gay marriage.

Bush has completely destroyed this country in the six years he's been president. We have gone from a surplus that was brought about by the Clinton administration to a deficite in only three years. The only reason he's in power right now is because the democrats didn't have a good candidate to make it past the primaries in 2004 and John Kerry had to make that dumb comment about Cheney's daughter. And I hope to the powers that be that Jeb doesn't get the 'bright' idea to run for this office in 2008 or I will learn both the English and French words to O' Canada.

I have no problems with Gay marriage morally or spiritually. God said to Love one another and He didn't put limits on it. And I know of a lot more morally inept straight people than I do morally inept gays.

I hope that was enough to revive this thread because I would love to see some replies.[/color][/font]

[cancer]

First of all, I read earlier someone called being gay a mental defect? Sorry, but it's not mental. It's a biological ordeal that has to do with hormones. The mentality of the homosexual person is based off of the hormonal behavior. Also, someone that slowly turns gay is probably someone who just experimented and found that he preferred males over females. Some guys are actually just weirded out by the female body. There are many reasons for being gay, not just two. As for the banning of gay marriage, I believe that it is ridiculous. I know that it is against standard Christian belief, which is what the country was founded upon, but in modern times many things have changed. It's really difficult to discuss this issue without branching off into other areas of debate, which is why this debate has been really hot and going on for a while. As for what I think of Bush: I don't really care for him, but I don't think he is as horrible as people say. I'm not really into politics to be honest, but I do agree with the bandwagon idea. People are listening to the media a bit too much, as usual.

[Retribution]

[quote name='cancer']I'm not really into politics to be honest, but I do agree with the bandwagon idea. People are listening to the media a bit too much, as usual.[/quote]
[size=1]Sorry, CHW, but I'm really tired of the "zomfg gheys r teh wr0ngz!1," so I'm not really going to reiterate any of my views.

If you're not into politics, then perhaps you're not aware of the horrid job President Bush has been doing these last six years? And if you're not aware of the horrid job he's doing, how could you judge if his approval rating is a bandwagon or the pure truth?

Furthermore, the media is extremely conservative (FOX News, I'm looking at you) and censored to a high degree. For instance, that raid in Haditha happened in November. We heard of it Stateside in mid-June. There have been other stories that the BBC has covered that no American news channels have reported to any degree.[/size]

[Cat]

[QUOTE] Originally posted by Aaryanna_Mom

[i]Before I was born a number of my relatives decided to switch religions. They went from being Catholic to being members of the LDS/Mormon church. The neighbors, alarmed by the change actually reported them to the Ku Klux Klan who spent weeks openly watching them wearing the costumes associated with that sad organization. Nothing ever happened and they eventually left them alone, but the very idea of being persecuted for changing their beliefs was frightening and my parents told me that it made them very uncomfortable that they were watched for doing something different. No one should feel persecuted for living by what they believe in or because of their sexual orientation.[/i][/QUOTE]
[size=1]I have had simlier problems when I switched to Pagan religion. I rarely let people know my religion because of its rep. For example when people hear Pagan they think witch, this is true to a certain degree but they think of flying brooms and evil spells. This is mostly false there is no flying brooms but I will not go say there are no evil spells. I for one do notuse gray ro black because it will come back and bit you in the a** if you do. White as most people think of healing and helping people. The white witch is no commonly seen when people hear Pagan, as I just explained. I'm very glad that people here haven't bad mounth me because of my religion.[/size]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by cancer

[i]I'm not really into politics to be honest, but I do agree with the bandwagon idea. People are listening to the media a bit too much, as usual.[/i] [/QUOTE]
[size=1]Some people don't know that the media is censored to a high degree. My Dad for example beilives every thing that comes on Fox News. Some people don't even know that they are jumping on the bandwagon . They saw what a mess prestent has made so they go with there own ideals and they just happen to be the same as other people. So in that since how can it be jumping on the bandwagon ? How can you say that if you don't like politics? Its judgeing with out knowing. [/size]

[cancer]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Sorry, CHW, but I'm really tired of the "zomfg gheys r teh wr0ngz!1," so I'm not really going to reiterate any of my views.

If you're not into politics, then perhaps you're not aware of the horrid job President Bush has been doing these last six years? And if you're not aware of the horrid job he's doing, how could you judge if his approval rating is a bandwagon or the pure truth?

Furthermore, the media is extremely conservative (FOX News, I'm looking at you) and censored to a high degree. For instance, that raid in Haditha happened in November. We heard of it Stateside in mid-June. There have been other stories that the BBC has covered that no American news channels have reported to any degree.[/size][/QUOTE]

Well, I can judge because my stepfather is an extreme conservative who is constantly talking about it. Furthermore, I have to listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio constantly, another conservative. CNN at least is definitely not conservative. They are constanlty showing Bush-bashing cartoons for commercial transitions. FOX news, however, shows both views a bit more faithfully. So I don't see how you could say that the media is conservative.

[Tekkaman]

[quote name='Cat14']I have had simlier problems when I switched to Pagan religion. I rarely let people know my religion because of its rep. For example when people hear Pagan they think witch, this is true to a certain degree but they think of flying brooms and evil spells. This is mostly false there is no flying brooms but I will not go say there are no evil spells. I for one do notuse gray ro black because it will come back and bit you in the a** if you do. White as most people think of healing and helping people. The white witch is no commonly seen when people hear Pagan, as I just explained. I'm very glad that people here haven't bad mounth me because of my religion. [/quote] I had a situation like yours when I moved into a trailer with my Pagan battle buddy in LSA Anaconda, Iraq. I never forced my Christian religion on him because I believed that

1. Everyone was entitled to believe what they want to.
2. Just because he was different wasn't going to stop me from being friends with him.

Anyway, the small point i'm making is that if a person is gay, then let that person travel their own path. You don't see gay people trying to force Christians to be gay do you? Everyone is entitled to walk their own path of life. And for the God fearing people: Gay people, like everyone else, have to find "God" on their own. I say "God" like that because i'm saying that they must go through life without people trying to force the bible's teachings down their throats. Gays and gay marriages, like it or not, have become integrated into America and will be here for a VERY long time. In short, evolution is constant.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Sorry, CHW, but I'm really tired of the "zomfg gheys r teh wr0ngz!1," so I'm not really going to reiterate any of my views..[/size][/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Okay question, what did that gibberish mean and why am I the one with the spotlight? If you're going to point out something in my posts at least note that I pay attention to politics.[/color][/font]

[Mistral]

[FONT=Courier New] I don't see why gay marriage is such a big deal. Sure sometimes lesbians creep me out. But if they aren't hurting anyone, then why ban it? Because it's a sin against God? In the Bible, gayness is a sin. But in the Bible, so is being a Satanist, right? And that's allowed, no? If our ancestors came to America, killed off the original Natives, whom also weren't always here, to come here and get away from the other King Georges. But the current King George is ok because he's got God's ear. (I'm being sarcastic there.)

I dislike Bush greatly. I dislike his family greatly. I dislike how he got to power, even more so. And how people who like him, and root for him. Don't know anything the Bush family has done. How can you vote for someone who's daddy and grandpappy voted no on civil rights? How can you vote for somebody who if you debate with, there can be no challenging debate between the two people debating?

I'm a Lutheran, I love God, Jesus, the Holyspirit. I believe there could be a chance my religion's wrong. But I have a really hard time thinking Jesus or any God likes Bush. [/FONT]

[Kita Erindur]

Well, I can't say much on Bush, as I'm English, and I only hear stuff about him on the news, and I don't think I know enough about him to make judgments. However you can't call something 'jumping on the bandwagon' just like that, maybe its just obvious and everyone agrees, and people have the right to think what they like. Which brings me to my opinion on homosexuality. Let people think what they want, and they'll let you have your opinions. How can you ban somthing like a gay marriage. Wheres the sense, is it really hurting anyone. People should worry about moe important things than whether gay love is wrong or right. To me love is love whoever it is between. I have friends who are bi and gay, and I know from the way they speak that they [I]love [/I] their girlfriends or boyfriends just as much as two people of the same sex might. To them it doesn't matter if they can get married in the future or not, what ever happens their love is there, and no one can take that from them.

I had a friend once she was extremly homophobic, and she was very religous, in here words she 'didn't beleive in gay people'. She literally refused that they exsisted. She was disgusted by them. She was also someone who said they beleived strongly in love, and love at first sight. (Which always used as an argument against her homophobia) One day I was with her when me met this guy, and she really liked him, like [I]really[/I] beleived she loved him. He had a similer prejudice to her but the other way round, when he found out she was christian he was totally off her. She, of corse was dumnfounded. 'How could he hate her for her religion?' 'Her religion said nothing about her personality' (she said) . I then asked her why homosexuality had anything to do with personality, and her judgment on people. She couldn't anser me.

Sorry to a LONG story like that. I just think its a good example. Many religious people have they beleif accepted easily by other people who don't share it. However they can't accept someones elses beleifs or sexual oriantation. I think we should learn to accept others beleif, and thus have our own accepted.

If people are against homsexuality, fine. Though I'd like to know why? But they cannot, cannot push their beleifs on anyone else.

[Retribution]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Okay question, what did that gibberish mean and why am I the one with the spotlight? If you're going to point out something in my posts at least note that I pay attention to politics.[/color'][/font][/quote][size=1]You're not in the spotlight, I was just replying to you. Since you were the one who wanted the thread to be revived, I thought that you were sort of wanting a renewed discussion of the topic at hand. My reply to you was just saying "Sorry, but I'm tired of the roundabout discussion on the matter, so I won't repost my beliefs for the sake of thread-renewal." Better? :]

[quote name='cancer']Well, I can judge because my stepfather is an extreme conservative who is constantly talking about it. Furthermore, I have to listen to Rush Limbaugh on the radio constantly, another conservative. CNN at least is definitely not conservative. They are constanlty showing Bush-bashing cartoons for commercial transitions. FOX news, however, shows both views a bit more faithfully. So I don't see how you could say that the media is conservative.[/quote]
I'm shocked that you say FOX shows things "a bit more faithfully," when their biggest talking head is none other than Bill O'Reilly. I was watching him bash liberals and how they were "unpatriotic" since we didn't want the war in Iraq. I mean, FOX was over the top about the war. They were plagued with GOP slant (anchors gung-ho about the war, covering more 'positive' stories about how Iraq was progressing, etc) throughout Bush's presidency.

I also think that the sheer about of censoring and filtering going on in our news about Iraq is astounding proof for my point. As I said earlier, I read about the Haditha massacre on BBC News -- it was half a day later when CNN and MSNBC picked up the story. Not to mention that the entire thing happened in November and we heard of it in June.[/size]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1]You're not in the spotlight, I was just replying to you. Since you were the one who wanted the thread to be revived, I thought that you were sort of wanting a renewed discussion of the topic at hand. My reply to you was just saying "Sorry, but I'm tired of the roundabout discussion on the matter, so I won't repost my beliefs for the sake of thread-renewal." Better? :'][/size][/quote]


[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] YEs much. Sorry I'm just in a mood lately... long story. [/color][/font]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I'm shocked that you say FOX shows things "a bit more faithfully," when their biggest talking head is none other than Bill O'Reilly. I was watching him bash liberals and how they were "unpatriotic" since we didn't want the war in Iraq. I mean, FOX was over the top about the war. They were plagued with GOP slant (anchors gung-ho about the war, covering more 'positive' stories about how Iraq was progressing, etc) throughout Bush's presidency.
[/size][/QUOTE]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Oh do not get me started on all these 'anti-liberal' Bush supporters in this country. It's enough to choke a Donkey... or an Elephant I can't remember which animal goes with which party, but who cares?

My recent addition to my *hit list is Ann Coulter. I tried really hard to read her newest book 'The Church of Liberalism and nearly gagged on the extremism. She claims that it's bad to teach sex ed in schools, give teachers higher pay and that all liberals support Darwinism and don't believe in God. That woman should use the royalties from this book and buy herself a clue.

I consider myself a moderate bi-partisan voter. I consider myself an American and I consider myself well informed.... Of course I also don't watch Fox News Just CNN and some MSNBC along with Nightly news. I don't like all these divisions and I think I may vote for McCain in 2008 provided he makes it through the primaries and Hilary Clinton doesn't.[/color][/font]

[Starwind]

I'm with Chibi here, Ann Coulter needs to either develope some insight, or some self control. Personally, I have nothing against gay marriage, and I don't get the whole argument on the conservative. All I keep hearing is how it's "Violating the sanctity of marriage!" Yes, 'sanctity', of marriage in a society where half of all marriages end in divorce. Am I the only one who sees the humor in this?

I'm in the military and, as I'm sure you all know, they don't allow gays in service. Mind you, they don't actually ask you your sexual preference when you enlist, it's more like don't ask, don't tell. Anyway, one of the ways you can be dischargerd from the military is to get married to another person of the same gender.

People often ask why Clinton wasn't popular with military personel. It had most to do with the fact that he was for trying to legitimize gays in the armed services. The military is like a giant red neck after party. For most it's an excuse to kill people and get paid doing it.

At the end of the day, does letting gays get married really hurt anyone? Sure the catholic church would get pissed, but were talking about the same church that has helped protect child molesters for years. True, I can't see the catholic point of veiw because I'm not one, nor do I want to be. The only question I ask to them is "Why is it a sin?" Why is it wrong for two people who love each other, to be together. Love is a simple thing, and gender shouldn't play the such a major role.

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Starwind'] I'm with Chibi here, Ann Coulter needs to either develope some insight, or some self control. Personally, I have nothing against gay marriage, and I don't get the whole argument on the conservative. All I keep hearing is how it's "Violating the sanctity of marriage!" Yes, 'sanctity', of marriage in a society where half of all marriages end in divorce. Am I the only one who sees the humor in this?[/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] I think she needs to broaden her horizons a bit and stop catergorizing everyone, but hey that's just a single mom on welfare's opinion.

I think that barring religious veiws the people who have a problem with gay marriages must have some kind of relationship issues themselves. Or maybe not, because El knows I have a lot of relationship issues and I reallly don't care who marries who.

And no you aren't the only one finding humor in the whole "Violating the sanctity of marriage!" My ex cheated on me and is making himself out to be the all American family with his new wife and my daughter. And since he's straight it works for him. I find the whole sanctity thing extremely amusing.[/color][/font]

[quote name='Starwind']I'm in the military and, as I'm sure you all know, they don't allow gays in service. Mind you, they don't actually ask you your sexual preference when you enlist, it's more like don't ask, don't tell. Anyway, one of the ways you can be dischargerd from the military is to get married to another person of the same gender.[/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]Well first of all thank you very much for serving your country. I know the hell they tend to put our soldiers through and good luck.

Second I think the whole don't ask don't tell policy has got to be one of the most idiotic things the American military has ever thought up in the over two centuries that it has been in existance. Who cares what PFC so and so is doing in his or her free time? As long as the person is pulling his weight get over it!

Third- you can get an honorable discharge if somehow it''s found out that you're gay. Which means that if you suddenly decide that you don't want to be a memeber of the world's finest all you have to do is hit on a member of the same sex... I think.[/color][/font]

[quote name='Starwind'] The military is like a giant red neck after party. For most it's an excuse to kill people and get paid doing it.[/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]That is really funny. I don't know what else to say about that. But after meeting a lot of Army guys from the south I have to agree with you.[/color][/font]