Anime Bleach

[Magus]

Yes, power rankings is the last thing you want to think about, HC. They're all over the place and you'll only come out either pissed or brain damaged.

Yami and the 0 thing... Let's see. I forgot how long it's been since that reveal but I'm still not onboard about him being the strongest. Perhaps in terms of raw power then maybe, but I just don't see him beating Ulquiorra. Edited July 20, 2010 by Magus

[Heaven's Cloud]

[quote name='Magus' date='20 July 2010 - 09:31 AM' timestamp='1279632696' post='697506']
Yes, power rankings is the last thing you want to think about, HC. They're all over the place and you'll only come out either pissed or brain damaged.

Yami and the 0 thing... Let's see. I forgot how long it's been since that reveal but I'm still not onboard about him being the strongest. Perhaps in terms of raw power then maybe, but I just don't see him beating Ulquiorra.
[/quote]

[color=indigo]Didn't Ulquiorra pretty much admit to being the strongest Espada because he could do a second stage release, or some convenient plot device like that? Regardless, it does hurt my head thinking about why so and so defeats so and so in Bleach. It is almost like DBZ...the power ups have become way too immense.[/color]

[Magus]

[quote name='Heaven's Cloud' date='20 July 2010 - 09:53 AM' timestamp='1279634007' post='697511']
[color=indigo]Didn't Ulquiorra pretty much admit to being the strongest Espada because he could do a second stage release, or some convenient plot device like that? Regardless, it does hurt my head thinking about why so and so defeats so and so in Bleach. It is almost like DBZ...the power ups have become way too immense.[/color]
[/quote]
The way he fought I certainly wouldn't put it past him if he was the strongest espada. But I believe the words were (or similar to) "I am the only one to achieve a 2nd release and even Aizen has not seen this form". I don't know if that's really admitting anything, but it does throw everything for a loop. Because I certainly don't any of the captains outside of Shunsui, Yama-ji and perhaps Ukitake being able to lay a finger on Ulquiorra in his 2nd release. I'll stop there because anything I say afterward goes into spoiler territory.

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Given the power-jump between the first stage of his resurreccion and second stage I'd be pretty confident in pushing Ulquiorra into the Top 2, maybe even tip-top as far as the Espada go. As Magus said, Yammy has power but evidently it's quite similar to Ikkaku in that seems very offensively-focused without any defence to back it up, hence [spoiler]Kenpachi was able to cleave straight through his limbs with single-handed blows, and Byakuya and Ichigo were both able to inflict damage[/spoiler]. Given his size and speed post-release, I just can't see Yammy being able to get around faster opponents like Ulquiorra or Stark who are capable of inflicting damage at speed. Even weakened Ichigo was able to dodge anything Yammy threw at him with ease.

That said HC, trying to set up powerlevels or judge release stages like DBZ is an effort in futility, Kubo just changes it too often to be sure outside of Aizen and Yamamoto being the two biggest hitters.[/size][/font]

[Humaru]

Yammy is a big dud if you ask me. He is just a distraction so that all the captains weren't fighting Aizen at the same time. You can't honestly tell me that the top 3 espada would stand a chance against Byakuya, Kenpachi, and Ichigo. I guess Kubo had to get the matchups right so he put the soul reapers against the espada that was most like them. I do think Yammy has the most power out of all the espadas in his release form but as for defeating his opponents like Byakuya and Kenpachi, he would have a huge problem. For one Kenpachi will fight until you force him to use kendo[b](I bet his bankai is a boten-like weapon, and he won't be able to achieve unless he understands the reason for his powers)[/b] and Byakuya has multiple stages to his bankai. I dont think anyone can beat that duo,no matter how much raw power they have.

As for Shunsui and Ukitake, the fact that they were easily taken out doesn't show how weak they are but just their personalities. Ukitake got surprised because he underestimated Wonderweiss because of his demeanor. And he has a strong will to not fight against children such as he did with Lilynette. If he did fight children, Sparkk would be out of a Resurrecion partner. Then there is Shunsui, he was surprised because of his grief for his best friend. He knows that Ukitake has TB and so he immediately thought the worst when he saw him attacked. As it has been documented before, Shunsui will do anything to protect those closest to him: Ukitake, Lisa, and Nanao. And the fact that their bankais are too "scary" for anyone to see also had a big factor in their defeat.

[Magus]

Even being did in like that I still wouldn't say Ukitake and Shunsui are weak. It's because of Wonderweiss nature that Ukitake was did in the way he was. You do not expect people like him to that strong, or fast. Element of surprise does not equal weak.

As far as the top 3 and Byakuya and Kenpachi. Halibel against Kenpachi/Byakuya, I'd definately go with either Byakuya or Kenpachi given how Toshiro can keep up. (And I just don't see him being able to keep up with Byakuya or Kenpachi) Stark and Barragan against Kenpach/Byakuya, all bets are off. I don't want to go into spoiler territory until most of the fights with the espada are done. But I'll say this much for now. Barragan's ability is too much for Byakuya. I like Byakuya just as much as the next person, and anyone that knows me will tell you how much of a fan I am of his. Barry has proven that Kido can age, and I'm pretty sure that Senbonzakura (all zanpaktuo for that matter) is no different. And Kenpachi will rot charging at him like he'd do other battles. The big ? is if Kenpachi or Byakuya can keep up with Ulquiorra? And to be honest, that's a big no (which even gives me less hope of them being able to touch the top 2)

[Humaru]

Ichigo took care of Ulquiorra quite soundly so I wouldn't say you have to worry about him. I do think that Kenpachi could take Ulquiorra because of his sheer raw power would either be equal to or greater than Ulquiorra's. That's how Ichigo beat him , raw power. He wasn't faster or more skilled at swordplay....Ichigo's power was just greater.

As for the other espada, I just dont think that Starkk or Harribel would stand a chance. As for Barragan, its true that Ichigo/Byakuya/Kenpachi couldn't beat him because they have mainly physical zanpakuto. Byakuya can make his into a kido type but his most powerful attack is physically based. Good thing the Vizards showed up. Im sure they would just take care of Barragan because they would all jump him.

Then that just leaves Gin and Aizen....Gin would be scared outta his mind at the sight of the Vizards and Soul Reapers""[color="#FFFFFF"][s](plus Yoruichi, Kisuke, and Isshin) standing before him and Aizen...He would betray Aizen[/s] [/color]""and then Aizen reveals his true power only to be stooped by a mass of bankais coming at him. Then all he can utter is "OH crap......FML!!!!"

[Magus]

Soundly? (Definately wouldn't be the word I'd use to describe Ulquiorra's defeat) Did you forget about everything that happened before the Deus Ex transformation? Ichigo was pretty much as good as dead.

I think I'm gonna leave the Ulquiorra vs Kenpachi/Byakuya thing alone... (I know I brought it up) Mainly because it's gonna lead to power rankings and I don't like how screwed up the rankings are.

[Humaru]

[quote name='Beretta' date='31 July 2010 - 08:42 PM' timestamp='1280623350' post='698380']
Soundly? (Definately wouldn't be the word I'd use to describe Ulquiorra's defeat) Did you forget about everything that happened before the Deus Ex transformation? Ichigo was pretty much as good as dead.

I think I'm gonna leave the Ulquiorra vs Kenpachi/Byakuya thing alone... (I know I brought it up) Mainly because it's gonna lead to power rankings and I don't like how screwed up the rankings are.
[/quote]

Yes power ranking get on my nerves as well. I hate how most guys who are considered strong really aren't and vice versa as well.

[Heaven's Cloud]

[quote name='Humaru' date='31 July 2010 - 09:07 PM' timestamp='1280624843' post='698386']
Yes power ranking get on my nerves as well. I hate how most guys who are considered strong really aren't and vice versa as well.
[/quote]

[color=indigo]This has long been the thorn in my side when it comes to Bleach. Take Ichigo for example. When he first wields his bankai its main attribute is that it makes him quick enough to easily evade Byakuya's attacks. However, as the series progresses, it seems like this attribute of Ichigo's bankai is lost, replaced by the "getsuga tenshou (sp)" move that he favors.

Really, it is inconsistencies like this that drive me crazy. [/color]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Heaven's Cloud' date='01 August 2010 - 06:50 PM' timestamp='1280685051' post='698456']
[color=indigo]This has long been the thorn in my side when it comes to Bleach. Take Ichigo for example. When he first wields his bankai its main attribute is that it makes him quick enough to easily evade Byakuya's attacks. However, as the series progresses, it seems like this attribute of Ichigo's bankai is lost, replaced by the "getsuga tenshou (sp)" move that he favors.

Really, it is inconsistencies like this that drive me crazy. [/color]
[/quote]
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]
This I would have to agree with, Ichigo going from one of the fastest combatants in all Soul Society to "meh you're OK but not great" in the space of a single arc without any justifiable reason really got on my nerves although it's a big second to the Arrancar in general turning out to be waaaaaay, less powerful than they were originally stated as being, same with the Vizard really (3 minute rule was a complete asspull).[/size][/font]

[Magus]

I wasn't gonna speak about the Vaizards until said events came up, but since they were brought up. Yes I think between the espada and the vaizards I'm more disappointed in the vaizards.

[Humaru]

Yes the Vizards are very dissappointing. The 3 minute thing is kinda dumb....its like what have you guys been doing all this time...just loafing around. And they talk like they aren't soul reapers anymore or hate the soul society. They still use their zanpakuto and if they stop being so freaking stubborn, they might be able to kill people. Kensei I believe is the only Vizard to use his bankai....it takes every one else time to even use their shikai.

Arrancars at least try their best and release all their power when fighting.

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]I think the thing about the Vizards is that like the Espada, and Arrancar in general they'd been hyped up to be effectively the next level of power in Bleach and yet when it came down to it they were no more effective really than the current generation of Shinigami captains. Using their masks against Gillians when they should've been kept to be used against Aizen or their respective Espada opponents was silly, if indeed the time limit does apply, which I hope it doesn't because then training Ichigo to hold on to his mask for ages would seem like shooting for something none of them bar Mashiro could do (which apparently was nineteen hours straight which would make three minutes look like a joke).

I think the thing about them saying they're not Shinigami any more and that they hate Soul Society while still using their powers is understandable, they hate the system and they want nothing to do with those who still serve it but their zanpakutou are theirs, as are their powers which means there isn't any reason for them to stop using them. Most of the time they just seem to use their unreleased swords and masks anyway. [/size][/font]

[Heaven's Cloud]

[quote name='Gavin' date='03 August 2010 - 07:29 AM' timestamp='1280834995' post='698650']
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]
I think the thing about them saying they're not Shinigami any more and that they hate Soul Society while still using their powers is understandable, they hate the system and they want nothing to do with those who still serve it but their zanpakutou are theirs, as are their powers which means there isn't any reason for them to stop using them. Most of the time they just seem to use their unreleased swords and masks anyway. [/size][/font]
[/quote]

[color=indigo]I am a the point in the series where the Vizards have just begun fighting the Espada, but I agree that their tactics seems a little dumb. Why would you use your strongest weapon to defeat the weakest of your foes? It seems like the Vizards should have had no problems dealing with the Gillian in their normal or shikai released state, then they could proceed to fight the tougher opponents with their masks and/or bankai.[/color]

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]That was actually one of the huge annoyances for me about the whole Fake Karakura arc in that we only got to see three previously unrevealed bankai out of I think about fifteen or sixteen possibles and worst (big spoiler here, read at own peril) [spoiler]Yamamoto dies without ever using his[/spoiler]. Given how powerful the Espada were supposed to be it never made sense the Shinigami wouldn't come straight out with bankai, except for those captains who are expected to job because they always use their bankai. [/size][/font]

[Magus]

The worst part of what Gavin mentioned is that [spoiler]Your top dog loses to a guy who didn't even need to use bankai. He's numero uno for crying outside and a cheap shikai is enough to do him in...[/spoiler] (don't read just yet. Read after maybe 2 episodes lol) And then "tactics" means absolutely nothing when it comes to SS. It's like everyone just turned dumb (outside of maybe a few).

[Humaru]

I dont think Yamamoto is actually dead. I mean come on....that guy was old when the soul society started. He can't be dead because there no way to fill his spot in the soul society [spoiler]after they eventually beat Aizen[/spoiler]. I think its one of those things where, you have to take out a super strong character without him actually losing to somebody.

[color="#0000FF"]Please remember to use spoiler tags when mentioning the outcome of something like a battle as there are people who may not have seen or read it yet, regardless of the age of the content in question.[/color]
[color="#0000FF"]-Petie[/color] Edited August 5, 2010 by Petie
Added spoiler tags.

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Regarding [spoiler]Stark's death[/spoiler] I have to give the man credit, he fought off two pairs of shikai-wielding senior captains, one pair of which had their Vizard powers to rely on during the fight when necessary. Four shikai is probably worth one bankai, although for a fan reveal it would've been nice to see a least one. [spoiler]I still think Kyouraku's justification of "everything is fair in battle" is bullshit, dude saw a cheap opening to deal a major blow and took it to look like a hero.[/spoiler][/size][/font]

[Magus]

[quote name='Humaru' date='04 August 2010 - 02:18 PM' timestamp='1280945895' post='698793']
[spoiler]I dont think Yamamoto is actually dead. I mean come on....that guy was old when the soul society started. He can't be dead because there no way to fill his spot in the soul society after they eventually beat Aizen. I think its one of those things where, you have to take out a super strong character without him actually losing to somebody.[/spoiler]
[/quote]
HEYY!!!! Heaven's Cloud don't read the manga. Spoiler man, spoiler. (spoiler)(/spoiler) replace () with [ ]

Oh, I give all props to [spoiler]Stark. As a matter of fact, because he took on 4 captains I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt of living up to expectation.[/spoiler] I can't really say much about Shunsui though. Mainly because that's the way battles are and Rukia (can't believe I'm using her as an example) said in the episode dealing with Orihime's brother that a shinigami should always strike while being undetected or something like that... I know, every single shinigami does not follow that philosophy at all, but with [spoiler]Shunsui's shikai, he best fit that saying better than every other character seeing how he strike from shadows[/spoiler] (He should've been the 2nd division captain lol) Edited August 4, 2010 by Beretta

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]Meh I still think he's a coward. Give me Kenpachi or Komamura's "I'm right here *****, let's do this" style to fighting any day.[/size][/font]

[Magus]

Lol. I guess that's where we clash at. Tacticians all the way. I'll take people like Byakuya, Urahara and Aizen any day over Kenpachi, Komamura and Ichigo. People that just charge in are boring to me especially now because it's been repeated so many times. Edited August 4, 2010 by Beretta

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]I'm not opposed to tactics, or tactical fighting I just absolutely loathe [spoiler]stabbing someone in the back and calling it tactical fighting, sure Shunsui had to wait for Stark to actually create a shadow but it just seemed to destroy any sense of Stark being a serious opponent considering he went on to be butchered by Shunsui's OP shikai.[/spoiler] I mean if he were being tactical why not have done that from the start ?[/size][/font]

[Magus]

[quote name='Gavin' date='04 August 2010 - 05:23 PM' timestamp='1280957014' post='698831']
[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]I mean if he were being tactical why not have done that from the start ?[/size][/font]
[/quote]
And that's where we get the idea of Soul Society being filled with nothing bit idiots. [spoiler]Yamamoto is proof of that[/spoiler]. That's also why we're at the point of wondering why no one is using bankai. Bad writing on Kubo's end. Edited August 4, 2010 by Beretta

[Gavin]

[font="Tahoma"][size="2"]I think we established some time ago that [spoiler]Yamamoto is a complete idiot when it comes to strategy, hell the only reason he was leader of Soul Society was his uber DPS[/spoiler].[/size][/font]