In Seven Days

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]
I suppose that it's easy to trivialize the accomplishments of the Middle Eastern peoples. While Europe was just a mass of dirt, the Middle East was progressing in the fields of math, science, medicine, architecture, etc. In addition, the Bible is rather eloquent. My point is: do you think that such a collection of books could be written by some primitive savage? Do you think that such eloquence would belong to such a person? No. And if the answer is no, do you think that such an eloquent author (or group of them) would be able to comprehend the concept of "time"? Of course. And if they can comprehend the concept of time, it isn't too huge an assumption to say that they could fathom manipulations of it, just as we're doing now.

I grow weary of all the attempts to refute the Bible. If you see it as a dusty book that should belong in the fiction aisle, that's great. All debates of religious nature dead-end due to the fact that one side is rooted in the unseeable and the other side demands physical proof (and they don't buy the whole Jesus bit).[/size][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
I meant primative as in 'less technologically advanced.' I'm well aware that the Mid East was the birthplace of civilization, but they didn't think of time the way we do... it was just "One day ends, another day begins." They didn't comprehend that "6 Days" could mean anything more than "Six cycles of the sun."

Much like the Illiad or other such epics, the original story was not so eloquent. The original story was taken by another storyteller who added his own perspective and his own touches. It was also translated many times into many different langauges, and altered by many different civilizations (Most notably the Romans.) so that the modern Bible is significantly different than the ancient one.

And BTW... [i]yes[/i] a group of people could comprehend the finer points of language without having a concept of time like we do. They're unrelated in terms of a civilizations development. I probably didn't make myself clear enough when I said "no concept of time."[/COLOR]

[TheResplendent]

[QUOTE=Tical]If you want to know why I don't think there is a god, it's cuz I can't believe it. It just seems so unreal... so impossible. I mean go read a novel and read the bible and there aint much difference. It just seems so unlikely.

And like the whole Egyption god thing. I mean, just cuz you believe something doens't make it true. There could be a god. who knows? Why argue?[/QUOTE]

Something even as simple as that is fine, i can respect that. I wasn't pinpointing anyone in this thread specifically, that would contradict my choice not to involve myself. So Cygnas that is in response to your last post, no need to defend yourself against me because i'm not attacking. But i will mention that insinuating that other's beliefs are wrong due to you convincing yourself that your's is right is an ignorant comment. That isn't an insult, because my philosophy is it isn't an insult to call a dead man dead or a fat man fat it is the intent and not the word that creates ill will, so again no need for defense, i have no reason to offend you since you've never wronged me in any way, i too am merely stating my opinion on a particular subject.

But regardless, war of opinions can easily get out of hand and people begin to take it personally. It just bugs me when they begin to talk about it, yet they bring it upon themselves.

[Retribution]

[size=1]What's preventing a sophisticated society from articulating something in the form of a metaphor? Jesus spoke in parables to let peasants understand his revolutionary message, could this not be the same?

And, inevitably, the other half of this is [i][b]faith[/b][/i]. There is no conclusive evidence for the existance of a God, however, Christians find comfort in the Bible. While it isn't a loudspeaker straight from God to us humans, it is as close as humans will ever get.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']What's preventing a sophisticated society from articulating something in the form of a metaphor? Jesus spoke in parables to let peasants understand his revolutionary message, could this not be the same?[/size][/quote]

Yes, it could. But if your willing to admit the bible could be paraphrsed in parts, yo uare willing to admit it could [I]all[/I] be paraphrased. And in such a case, there is no way of knowing what the hell it all means.

[Retribution]

[quote name='Tical]Yes, it could. But if your willing to admit the bible could be paraphrsed in parts, yo uare willing to admit it could [I]all[/I'] be paraphrased. And in such a case, there is no way of knowing what the hell it all means.[/quote]
[size=1]I think you meant parable? Or maybe you meant that a parable was a paraphrased version of the original happening? I guess that part doesn't matter much anyway.

I still think that despite all the translations, editing, etc, the Bible's (or more properly, the Synoptic Gospels if we're talking Christianity) message remains intact. The basic premise to love thy neighbor, to turn the other cheek, and to do onto others as you would have them do unto you is still there. You can definitely determine what "love thy neighbor" means, lol. I mean, c'mon, blanketing the entire Bible with such a statement is rather blind.

I find it funny that an Agnostic is defending Christianity.[/size]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]What's preventing a sophisticated society from articulating something in the form of a metaphor? Jesus spoke in parables to let peasants understand his revolutionary message, could this not be the same?

And, inevitably, the other half of this is [i][b]faith[/b][/i]. There is no conclusive evidence for the existance of a God, however, Christians find comfort in the Bible. While it isn't a loudspeaker straight from God to us humans, it is as close as humans will ever get.[/size][/QUOTE][COLOR=Sienna]

I don't see how it was a metaphore. If it WAS a metaphore, I don't understand why it would be a metaphore - Why would one of the many authors say something occured in 6 days (i.e six cycles of the sun.) when it in fact occured in 6 billion years? I mean, that just plain doesn't make sense.

Faith is something I could never understand, and most likely never will. I guess that's just me. I understand that the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I don't see absence of evidence as conclusive evidence of existence either.

Edit: The Bible isn't ALL 'Love thy neighbour' etc., especially in the OT. I mean, come on, that was basically one genoicide after another. When god wasn't trying to drown all life on earth, he was throwing people into firey pits for using incense. And there are quite a few little quotes that aren't exactly neighbour-friendly... specifically "If a stranger comes at night, he shall be put to death." I'm not saying it's all "fire and brimstone," but it's not all lovey-dovey either.[/COLOR]

[Zen]

[color=navy][size=1]

To Tical:

You seem to be confusing the fact that the Bible was never written as a whole. It's compiled by several seperate religious writings spread out over some time. They were collected together into a single book based on the wishes of a councel of early Christians put together by Constantine.

To Cygnus:

Yes, the Bible is more than likely written with several metaphors, possibly it's entirety is a metaphor, possibly not. Just as Retribution said, this is all based on Christian's (and any other religions) [b]faith[/b]. I personally look past the Bible in my pursuit of spiritual guidance and also look within myself for answers.

The Bible isn't a strict rulebook for Christians. It's a guidebook, it could almost be called a book of ancedotes from which Christians could take guidance from in how to handle certain or similiar situations in an Christian manner. Atleast, that is what it is for me, because these are my beliefs.

Also, the word 'days' may have been chosen for lack of a better one, seeing as how these books were written in a time when they followed only seasons and days. This misunderstanding of literal time frames also seems to take care of the centuries-long life spans of many of the Bibles earlier figures.

I do hope I haven't been misunderstood what I have said. I hold high respect for anyone's personal beliefs. Rather they be athiest, agnostic, Buhddist, Muslim, Scientologist, or whatever. It would never be my place to say anyone is wrong or right. I'm not saying that I am right, or that you are wrong. I am simply stating what I believe in. I just personally felt like I did not recieve the same respect that I was willing to give, so I retaliated.

[/color][/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']I don't see how it was a metaphore. If it WAS a metaphore, I don't understand why it would be a metaphore - Why would one of the many authors say something occured in 6 days (i.e six cycles of the sun.) when it in fact occured in 6 billion years? I mean, that just plain doesn't make sense.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Alright, metaphor wasn't the correct term. I guess I mean that the authors said that it occured in seven 'God days' which represents something much greater than we can fathom.

Imagine being some poor old peasant who has trouble counting the number of rows you've plowed in a day, and now you're being told that some higher power created everything in this vast, immeasurable span of time. I'm just saying there might be a reason why the word 'day' was picked.[/size]

[2010DigitalBoy]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']I find it funny that an Agnostic is defending Christianity.[/size][/quote]

If you mean me, I am no agnostic. I have my own beliefs.

Also, in response to the comments that the Bible is a guidbook -- does that mean there is no god?

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Alright, metaphor wasn't the correct term. I guess I mean that the authors said that it occured in seven 'God days' which represents something much greater than we can fathom.

Imagine being some poor old peasant who has trouble counting the number of rows you've plowed in a day, and now you're being told that some higher power created everything in this vast, immeasurable span of time. I'm just saying there might be a reason why the word 'day' was picked.[/size][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Hmm... I understand where you're coming from, but wouldn't that mean that more or less everything in the bible is the same way? That everything was altered, eiter exaggerated or what-have-you? Wouldn't that mean that the very integrity of the religious text is suspect and therefore unreliable? That's what it seems like to me. [/COLOR]

[Zen]

[QUOTE=Tical]If you mean me, I am no agnostic. I have my own beliefs.

Also, in response to the comments that the Bible is a guidbook -- does that mean there is no god?[/QUOTE]
[color=navy][size=1]

No, I mean in that comment that the Bible is a guidebook of how to live in accordance to God's wishes. Alot of people say that the Bible (and the other Holy Texts) were written by Prophets compelled by God himself, or God's spirit. These texts were written so that God, through the Prophets, could convey his message of how one should handle their life.

So basically, you could say it is the Guidebook written by God through his Prophets.

Or a Guidebook written by the Prophets, influenced by God in a near direct way.[/color][/size]

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=navy][size=1]These texts were written so that God, through the Prophets, could convey his message of how one should handle their life.

So basically, you could say it is the Guidebook written by God through his Prophets.

Or a Guidebook written by the Prophets, influenced by God in a near direct way.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

If by prophets you mean the hundreds of years the jews orally transmitted the old testament?

[Zen]

[color=navy][size=1]

Basically, yes. Oral tradition of the Judaic peoples for the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, the actual Apostles and Jesus himself acted as the Prophets directly and wrote their own texts themselves.

It could be said like this. The Old Testament is almost like a series of handed down stories, such as Noah, Job, and Moses. These, for me, are more than less, ancedotes for the Christian followers. The New Testament, is more than less a direct writing in which Jesus and the Apostles wrote their quotes and sermons down.

I haven't read the entire Bible, not even close. But what I have drawn from it and what I have read, this is what I've interpreted for myself and my own guidance.[/color][/size]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=navy][size=1]

Basically, yes. Oral tradition of the Judaic peoples for the Old Testament, and in the New Testament, the actual Apostles and Jesus himself acted as the Prophets directly and wrote their own texts themselves.

It could be said like this. The Old Testament is almost like a series of handed down stories, such as Noah, Job, and Moses. These, for me, are more than less, ancedotes for the Christian followers. The New Testament, is more than less a direct writing in which Jesus and the Apostles wrote their quotes and sermons down.

I haven't read the entire Bible, not even close. But what I have drawn from it and what I have read, this is what I've interpreted for myself and my own guidance.[/color][/size][/QUOTE][COLOR=Sienna]

They were bards of Homerian preportions for sure, but I highly doubt they were divinly inspired. In fact, many of their stories originally came from pre-Christian religions, which were modified to fit in with the general message of Christianity. Most notably is the Flood myth. Other things, such as Moses' escape from Egypt, were originally your average folk-tale - based on real events but dramaticized by the bards to make a good story, until one day someone said "Hey, if I change a few things this would make a pretty good miracle story for my new religion..."[/COLOR]

[Transtic Nerve]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']In fact, many of their stories originally came from pre-Christian religions, which were modified to fit in with the general message of Christianity. Most notably is the Flood myth. [/COLOR][/quote]

You're absolutely right. And any evidence of this can be seen by quickly refrencing any mythology book at your local book retailer. Or just be smart and take a class at your local college.

Anyway, one thing i don't get, and this may be off topic, since the old testament was oral transmitted through hundreds of years, maybe more, how can we be sure that what was the outcome when it was written was what was originally said at the beginning. I mean, i can say something to one person, and it can go and go to just 4 other people in a matter of one hour and be completely different when it gets back to me, how am I supposed to believe that something that was said 400 years ago is going to be the same now? I can't and thats why I can't see how things in the bible can be exactly how God intended them. After all, humans are flawed, and humans wrote the bible.

[Zen]

[color=navy][size=1]

Actually, Judaism is one of the oldest relegions in the world, I do believe. The story of Moses may have been a tall-tale to a certain extent, as were several others. But Judaism is the roots of Christianity, so I personally believe most of the stories from the Old Testament were atleast original tales. It could be said that the Christian Old-Testament is the Judaic holy text, if I'm not mistaken. Christians just built onto an old relegion as Jesus came along.

Heh. And the re-telling of the flood story by several faiths kinda makes ya ponder if
'A Great Flood' really did occur sometime in history.

[/color][/size]

[Transtic Nerve]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=navy][size=1]
Heh. And the re-telling of the flood story by several faiths kinda makes ya ponder if
'A Great Flood' really did occur sometime in history.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

Makes me wonder why Christianity couldn't come up with their own stories, they had to steal someone elses......
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now before you go all getting angry, that was a joke..

[Zen]

[color=navy][size=1]

Was taken as one. Heh.

Now as an answer to your previous question:

I mean, your grandparents or parents will tell you a story that has been carried down from your family for generations in order to teach you a lesson, or the moral of the story. The story may be slightly different for each retelling, or may be misconstrued over the generations, but the moral stays the same, you know what I mean? I'm saying the same could be said the for Judaic oral stories handed down for generations. Maybe the story was once alot more detailed and may have made more sense, but after being handed down for so long, it lost alot of the edge and became a blunt tale. Heh. For all we know, the stories once made perfectly clear sense, but no longer do.

Or maybe simple wording was used just so the story would be easier to pick up on and remember of the hundreds of years. Heh. Again, I'm not saying I'm right, I'm saying this is what I believe.[/color][/size]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='The Boss][color=navy][size=1]Heh. You know what's 'ludicrous' to me? The thought that the world, the creatures and wonders on it, and the great societies upon it are all a product of a trillion and one chance.[/color'][/size][/quote]

[color=crimson]And adding an invisible patriarchal deity guiding it all along certainly clears up the entire picture!

Good thing we got that solved, phew.[/color]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']'Laughable' is a word I'm quite fond of... I also find it helps me describe things I often laugh at. Unless I'm mistaken that is the definition of the word 'laughable.'[/quote][/color]

[color=crimson]... Ah.

'Laughable' is a word I'm quite fond of, too... it helps me describe things that are.. laughable. When I laugh I look at the dictionary and ask myself 'Is there a word that can describe this situation' and.. thankfully, one word is there. That word is.. [i]laughable[/i].[/color]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']The way I see it, if my opinion offends others than so be it. I won't censor my opinion just so that I don't offend other people. No matter how offensive my opinion may be to someone, it's my opinion and I'll express it. I feel that's how the world should work. There's to much political correctness and to little self-expression these days.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]Why do you love to grandstand, Cygnus? Who you are, what you stand for, how much you do or don't care, your little spiel on your concepts of self-expression. How is that relevant to this topic? Should I give you a high five with a "Good job, buddy!"?

I mean, just tell me what to do here man. I'm pretty lost.[/color]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']I don't see how it was a metaphore. If it WAS a metaphore, I don't understand why it would be a metaphore - Why would one of the many authors say something occured in 6 days (i.e six cycles of the sun.) when it in fact occured in 6 billion years? I mean, that just plain doesn't make sense.[/quote][/color]

[color=crimson]Well, the number seven crops up as a 'special' number several times throughout the Bible (and in several other religions). Symbolically, it has a special meaning just as the number 6 and 666 does.[/color]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']Faith is something I could never understand, and most likely never will. I guess that's just me. I understand that the absence of evidence isn't evidence of absence, but I don't see absence of evidence as conclusive evidence of existence either. [/quote][/color]

[color=crimson]You don't understand religious faith but faith itself is something you already have zealously embraced. You've simply placed it in a different concept.[/color]

[QUOTE=Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna]
Hmm... I understand where you're coming from, but wouldn't that mean that more or less everything in the bible is the same way? That everything was altered, eiter exaggerated or what-have-you? Wouldn't that mean that the very integrity of the religious text is suspect and therefore unreliable? That's what it seems like to me. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]Personally I don't think you can take much in the Bible at face value. Even Christianity is shattered into numerous sects that all interpret it in vastly different ways.

Plus, you don't really that to question the integrity of the religious text, do you? lol. It's been edited and literally manhandled for centuries to fit it's role as a spiritual text.

I mean, the body of work that was classified as Apocrypha alone is pretty extensive.[/color]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=navy][size=1]Heh. And the re-telling of the flood story by several faiths kinda makes ya ponder if
'A Great Flood' really did occur sometime in history.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]Yeah. There are several 'candidates' for it, if you will. The first one that comes to my mind is the Black Sea flooding. Basically it's the flood that turned the Black Sea from a large lake into the Sea we have today.

The word flood doesn't do it much justice. It was one big ************.[/color]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=The Boss][color=navy][size=1]

Actually, Judaism is one of the oldest relegions in the world, I do believe. The story of Moses may have been a tall-tale to a certain extent, as were several others. But Judaism is the roots of Christianity, so I personally believe most of the stories from the Old Testament were atleast original tales. It could be said that the Christian Old-Testament is the Judaic holy text, if I'm not mistaken. Christians just built onto an old relegion as Jesus came along.

Heh. And the re-telling of the flood story by several faiths kinda makes ya ponder if
'A Great Flood' really did occur sometime in history.[/color][/size][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Judiasm, while old, is most certainly not the oldest. The Mesopotamian clutures had their own religions, as did various different tribes and whathaveyou.

I was referring to a Sumerian myth when I refered to the flood myth - it's not just another 'There was a big flood.' story, it was nearly word-for-word what the bible said; only without the Christian overtones. In the Epic of Gilgamesh (Oldest epic story of all time, I believe.) the protagonist was on the Tigres river, on a big boat, going to trade at another city. He had a bunch of different animals, his family, and a lot of beer. Than it started to rain - a lot. The entire world flooded, and only his family and boat was left. Than he used a bird to go find a tree branch - exactly like Noah. The similarities are more than I can list here (and I'm no expert on Sumerian myths to begin with), but the stories are nearly exactly the same - with one big difference, the Gilgamesh epic has no Christian overtones. Christianity plagerised the story, nearly word for word, into their Flood Myth.[/COLOR]

[Zen]

[color=navy][size=1]

I said Judaism is [b]one[/b] of the oldest, not the oldest.

That is entirely possible.

But then again, the same could be said for the Sumerian's possibly plagirizing a Judaic myth. There's really no way to know which came first. It's known that the Sumerian's came up with on of the, if not the, first alphabets in history, so they may have had the jump on the Jewish tribes in the writing of a story that they both felt belonged to them, kinda like the Muslims and Jews are argueing today, (and have been for centuries) over who has the right to rule the Gaza Strip and Jerusalem.

Maybe Gilgamesh and Noah came from a person who actually did this and the Sumerians and Jews claimed that person to be their religous hero/figure, and ensued what they wanted individually into a story they both felt was miraculous and showed for both of them what they believed to be divine intervention from their respective God(s).

Heh. Again, I believe the Old Testament to be mostly comprised of moral-based stories from oral tradition.[/color][/size]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE]'Laughable' is a word I'm quite fond of, too... it helps me describe things that are.. laughable. When I laugh I look at the dictionary and ask myself 'Is there a word that can describe this situation' and.. thankfully, one word is there. That word is.. laughable.[/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Sienna]Quite a life saver, that word is![/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Why do you love to grandstand, Cygnus? [/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Mostly because it's fun.
[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]Well, the number seven crops up as a 'special' number several times throughout the Bible (and in several other religions). Symbolically, it has a special meaning just as the number 6 and 666 does.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
[i]And[/i]?[/COLOR]

[QUOTE]You don't understand religious faith but faith itself is something you already have zealously embraced. You've simply placed it in a different concept.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Depends on how you define faith; to me, faith is when you believe in something that flys in the face of logic and evidence. Therefore I wouldn't call it 'faith.'
[/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna][i]And[/i']?[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]lol. And... knowledge is power!

Seriously though, that was just an FYI. Adding numerology to the picture doesn't do much for the validity of the scriptures.

Just, you know, if you're ever on Jeopardy! and the answer is "This number is said to represent imperfection and humankind within the Bible" you know what to do.[/color]

[QUOTE=Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna]Depends on how you define faith; to me, faith is when you believe in something that flys in the face of logic and evidence. Therefore I wouldn't call it 'faith.'
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=crimson]Then you're right by that definition.[/color]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Cygnus X-1][COLOR=Sienna']Depends on how you define faith; to me, faith is when you believe in something that flys in the face of logic and evidence. Therefore I wouldn't call it 'faith.'[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]You believe that there is no God, but you don't have any evidence to disprove the existance of a higher power. Christians believe that there is an invisible God, yet they don't have any physical proof either (well, that Jesus guy, but we'll exclude him to stop all other sorts of debate).

If both sides have no proof, both are placing faith in the fact that they're right. You fervently believe "If I can't see it, it doesn't exist" whereas Christians say "I can't see it, but I have faith it's there" (yes, they're oversimplified arguments, deal with it).

No one has an upper-hand in this mindlessly circular debate. It's why I'm an Agnostic. There's just no conclusive evidence for one side or the other. Instead, I try to live my life well and help my fellow man. I think that's all Christ would've wanted anyway.[/size]

[Transtic Nerve]

I forgot what this topic was about... oh right, seven days or something... horrible movie by the way....

Look anything to deal with religion is always going to be based on faith whether or not i have 1000000000 things to prove it wrong, people who believe tend not to change their minds. I dont see why anyone bothers to argue about it.... I just like saying things though. It makes me feel smart on the inside.