Israeli action in Gaza

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I promised myself not to create yet another Israel/Palestine thread, but the recent happenings in the region have left me quite frustrated and angry.

If you've been keeping up with the news, you will know that Palestinian militants manage to borrow across the border, and raided and Israeli military base. Killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping one, Cpl Gilad Shalit, age 19.

There demands are simple: Release palestinian [B]women and children[/B]--[I]non-combattants[/I] from Israeli jails, or the soldier will be killed.

Furthermore, a major factor that contributed to this raid was the fact that on June 20th, about a dozen civilians were killed on the beach by Israeli missiles. One girl lost her entire family.

Israel refuses to negotiate with so-called 'terrorists' and instead to releasing the prisoners in exchange for the soldier, they have entered Gaza, where the soldier is known to be held hostage. The have cut off electricity and water in certain areas and destoyed a bridge, all in the attempt to prevent the militants from smuggling the soldier out of Gaza.

Several people are under the impression that Israel is going to kill many civilians in the region, and I certainly hope not. I don't believe that they would dare to hurt civilians as of now, because militants would probably respond to that by killing the hostage soldier.

They are however, launching rockets and missles and destroying alot of the infastructure of Gaza. And in addition, they are using one of their latest terrorising weapons against the palestinians: the sonic boom, when Israeli jet fighter flies low over the densely populated Gaza Strip, breaking the sound barrier.

The massive sonic boom often breaks windows, shakes entire apartment buildings and terrifies the people of Gaza. It can cause misscarriages too.

Anyway, what are your opinions of this matter? Is Israel's response justified, going a little overboard? Were the militants justified in holding the soldier hostange in exchange for innocent women and children held in Israeli jails? Should Israel release these prisoners?

I personally think that they should release the prisoners. There's no reason to go to such extremes to save the soldier if the simple solution is agreeing to release innocents.

Oh, and they better pay for all the dages to the infastructure too.[/COLOR]

[Transtic Nerve]

There's a sonic boom in Orlando everytime the shuddle lands... i've must have heard it about 20 or so times. (it's never shattered one of my windows by the way) How is that a weapon?... the only reason i can see it causing misscarriages is purely from the fact that it may scare a woman enough to cause that... but anythign could scare her, i dont think it's the actual sonic boom that causes the misscarriage.

Anyway, as far as I'm concerned, those two countries have been at it for so many years that i am convinced that they will never stop, so I am not going to get all bent out of shape about it.

[Retribution]

[size=1]I think that the Israeli response is in fact justified. A little over the top? Yes, but so was the Palestinian action.

Chabi, you always seem to overlook the Palestinian's faults and focus on the Israeli ones. Please realize that [i]if the Palestinians hadn't gone across the border, killed two soldiers and kidnapped one, this wouldn't be happening.[/i] Granted, I also think that Israel is using this to take out anger on the Palestinians, and that's wrong too.

Here's an analogy. Me and another kid hate each other, and we look for excuses to hurt the other. It just so happened that he threw a rock at me today. I know I'm much stronger than him, so I decide to take out all my rage upon him this one time and repay him for all the past pain he has caused. It's sort of like that.

Both sides are at fault here, but you must understand that Palestine made the first move and knew what happens when you hit a bee hive with a stick. I also think that Irael would in fact be negotiating with terrorists if they accepted the terms of the soldier's release. It would encourage others to try the same thing later; it just sets a horrible precedent.

PS: Israel isn't going to rebuild the infastructure. They took it out on purpose, and I bet it was to spite the Palestinians.[/size]

[Kitchen Sink]

Israel strikes Palestine in retribution for a previous attack, Palestine strikes israel in response. In resonse to that, Israel strikes Palestine and so on and so forth form here into eternity.

Sucks don't it?

As long as retribution and the ole "eye for eye" addage is exchanged and exchanged, with no side wiling to be the better one and walk away, there will be no peace. It's not excusable to justify the kidnappings with "well, they started it!" when all the troubles in the mid-east today are based in revenge and retribution.

Until the pair of them stop squabbling like 3 year olds, peace will be an unachievable goal.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen]I?d be curious to know, since I have not been following the news in regards to that area of the world, did the Palestinian militants make any attempts to request the release of the non-combatant women and children from Israeli jails? Or did they simply cross the border, raid the Israeli military base, kidnap the soldier and then demand the release of the women and children?

I know that those two like to fight back and forth a lot, but often what news I do see never mentions if they tried legal channels before going the route of kidnapping or attacking the other and making demands.

Although I see no reason for keeping women and children in jail, I also see no justification for killing two soldiers, kidnapping another and then expecting their demands to be met. Such actions are in my opinion childish.

I think both of them are over reacting. But to me the killing two and then kidnapping another is the worse offense. Even though they want women and children released, I see no justification for outright murder when demanding their release. And at that point releasing the women and children in response to their demands is like an open invitation or example to others saying, hey we can kill others and make demands and it?s okay.

I can't really understand their anger since I have never faced the problems they do, but I agree with Lost Lightbulb in that they need to quit fighting and try to be more mature when attempting to solve issues. I get the impression that both sides are convinced that they are right and the other is wrong and I wish someone could knock some sense into both of them. [/COLOR]

[Boba Fett]

[color=green]I find it highly doubtful that Israel would imprison anyone without a good reason. It costs a great deal of money to do so, after all.

There have been female suicide bombers, so I have little doubt that there are probably women held by Israel because they have been involved in terror-related activity. The [URL=http://volokh.com]Volokh Conspiracy[/URL] posted about Palestinian women being allowed to care for their children while jailed, which seems like the right thing to do. So for Hamas to threaten to kill an Israeli soldier unless Israel releases all women and children it is holding, while on the surface an acceptable demand, isn't really that cut and dried an issue.

Israel is taking care of one of it's own by invading Gaza, and I hope that Gilad Shalit is rescued. Hamas isn't doing itself a favor by threatening to kill 19 year old draftee, morally or in the arena of public opinion.

Chabichou, anyone who kidnaps and threatens to kill a hostage is a terrorist. This kind of disgusting, animalistic behavior does the Palestinian cause no favors.

Israel has taken a number of Hamas officials into custody, hoping to swap them for the soldier. Israel won't be killing their captives, though, regardless of their soldier's fate.[/color]

[Papa Smurf]

Also, when you think about it, Israel is helping the Palestinian women and children. When they're in an Israeli jail, they're much, much safer than if they were out in Gaza or wherever, especially considering how brutal attacks have been.

How ironic is that? That Palestinians are safer in Israeli custody (the custody of their "enemy") than they would be in their own communities?

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I think that the Israeli response is in fact justified. A little over the top? Yes, but so was the Palestinian action.

Chabi, you always seem to overlook the Palestinian's faults and focus on the Israeli ones. Please realize that [i]if the Palestinians hadn't gone across the border, killed two soldiers and kidnapped one, this wouldn't be happening.[/i] Granted, I also think that Israel is using this to take out anger on the Palestinians, and that's wrong too.
[/size][/QUOTE]Oh, don't worry Retri, I never overlook palestinian's faults. I certainly believe that some of the things that palestinian militants do are outrageous (boming innocent civilians). And I also accept that there are plenty of kindhearted Israelis that do care about the injustices that happen against the palestininians.

What angers me is the fact that some people are okay with palestinians being collectively punished for what a handful of militants do. Apparently eveyone thinks the whole population are terrorists because they voted for Hamas. But the thing is they voted for hamas not because of it's militant history, but because it can certainly do a better job of rebuilding palestine and providing services better than the corrupt Fatah party, in which a handful of "fat cats" were getting payed more than their fair share. Hamas has changed its ways about attacking civilians too.

I don't see how attacking soldiers can be called terrorism. Isn't this war? The soldiers killed and kidnapped could well have killed a few palestinians each.

And of course, all of you have ignored the fact that about a dozen palestinians were killed by israelis on the beach on june 20th. Apperently though, Israel thinks it can simply deny they did so and get away with it. Israel honestly gets away with almost every crime they commit against the palestinians, and this inevitably is going to spark hatred, anger, and irrational actions on the plaestinian's side.

Talk didn't get the women and children freed form prisons, and the palestinians don't have sofisticated weapons either? So what else can they do? They're desperate.

And Boba Fett, Israel jails palestinians for the stupidist little things (protests, trying to stop soldiers for demolishing their homes, etc) and keeps them their for a long time.

I do agree that people from both sides commit crimes against the other, but I believe Israel should be a bit more responsible and set a better example since it is the much stronger side. Law and order can't be established on the palestinian side if everything there is always being destroyed. If Israel at least stops destroying what little the palestinians have, a sense of calm and organization can return to the region. If stability rerturns to the reqion, maybe a plasetinian forces can have an easier time in stopping militants from boming settlements, which seems like an ongoing problem that the population can't seem to control. The palestinian government isn't behind these bombings anymore.[/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='Boba Fett][font=verdana][color=darkgreen]Chabichou, anyone who kidnaps and threatens to kill a hostage is a terrorist. This kind of disgusting, animalistic behavior does the Palestinian cause no favors.[/color'][/font][/quote][font=trebuchet ms]Yes, but equally Israel are (according to the letter of law in the Geneva Convention) committing War Crimes by cutting off amenities to Palestinian civilians that have nothing to do with the specific incident in question. The term is "Collective Punishment".

Essentially, neither side can claim clean hands in this conflict, nor in this particular incident.

I do try and be an optimist about these situations, and I have seen positive changes on the horizon in this conflict; talks between the two recently have seen tacit acceptance of Israel's existence by the Palestinians, for example. It just makes me cross when resolution comes one step closer and some idiot throws it three steps back again.[/font]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I do agree that people from both sides commit crimes against the other, but I believe Israel should be a bit more responsible and set a better example since it is the much stronger side. Law and order can't be established on the palestinian side if everything there is always being destroyed. If Israel at least stops destroying what little the palestinians have, a sense of calm and organization can return to the region. If stability rerturns to the reqion, maybe a plasetinian forces can have an easier time in stopping militants from boming settlements, which seems like an ongoing problem that the population can't seem to control. The palestinian government isn't behind these bombings anymore.[/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Chabi, Palestine is ultimately the aggressor in this situation.

Israel was founded, and no one in the Middle East liked that, so they decided to attack Israel. It's been like that for a long, long time. Israel rarely attacks another country without prior provocation; after all, it's the other countries that have animosity towards Israel in the first place.

Honestly, Israel has been desiring peace for quite a while. They conceeded their settlements to appease the Palestinians last summer, and they were talking of peace. And just when we think that the two will finally be harmonious (Arafat dying I mean), we're back to square one.[/size]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Chabi, Palestine is ultimately the aggressor in this situation.

Israel was founded, and no one in the Middle East liked that, so they decided to attack Israel. It's been like that for a long, long time. Israel rarely attacks another country without prior provocation; after all, it's the other countries that have animosity towards Israel in the first place.

Honestly, Israel has been desiring peace for quite a while. They conceeded their settlements to appease the Palestinians last summer, and they were talking of peace. And just when we think that the two will finally be harmonious (Arafat dying I mean), we're back to square one.[/size][/QUOTE]Retri, Israel has no reason to attack other countries. The only reason it attacks palestininians is because they are on what they call their land.

Of course the arab countries didn't like it when Israel was founded. Thousands of palestinians lost their homes in 1948 (including my grandparents) who were from Ashkalon. Britain had control of the reigion during the mandate, so they resricted palestinian movement and sold land to jews. The palestinians couldn't stop that from happening. Then in 1948 Israel declares independence and starts kicking palestinians out. The arabs waged war with Israel, and lost, but that's no reason that Israeli has the right to exist. It was created through dishonest ways. I can't believe anyone should be okay with people invading other countries and stealing their land just because they won a war "fair and square". What if let's say, France decided to invade the U.S and make it their new land. Of course Americans would fight to the bitter end, and even if France won, they would continue to fight, just like what the palestinians are doing now.

Just because you think the creatiion of Israel was legal and fair, doens't mean the arabs think so. The fact remains that palestinians were kicked out, and they have every right to try to get back their land. My grandparents have the right to the land that was stolen from them.

And in 1967, again my grandparents had to flee to Jordan to escape the war, and lost yet another home. My mother was 5 at the time.

So tell me, why shouldn't palestinians fight to get their homes back?[/COLOR]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I don't see how attacking soldiers can be called terrorism. Isn't this war? The soldiers killed and kidnapped could well have killed a few palestinians each.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]Capturing soldiers and holding them is fine. But threatening to execute a captured enemy combatant?[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']What if let's say, France decided to invade the U.S and make it their new land.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]roflcopter[/color]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]And in 1967, again my grandparents had to flee to Jordan to escape the war, and lost yet another home. My mother was 5 at the time.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=green]... because the 1967 war was [i]obviously[/i] the fault of Israel.[/color]

[Retribution]

[size=1]Chabi, whether the creation of Israel was fair or not is inconsequential to my point.

My point is that Palestine attacked first -- the reason of the attack isn't really too important. If they were being "freedom fighters" to regain their "stolen" lands, that's great. But the fact is that Palestine is always the aggressor in these situations, and when Israel comes back with stronger weaponry and a better equipped military, Palestine complains and cries about how evil and mean Israel is.

The 1967 war is the perfect example.[/size]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Chabi, whether the creation of Israel was fair or not is inconsequential to my point.

My point is that Palestine attacked first -- the reason of the attack isn't really too important. If they were being "freedom fighters" to regain their "stolen" lands, that's great. But the fact is that Palestine is always the aggressor in these situations, and when Israel comes back with stronger weaponry and a better equipped military, Palestine complains and cries about how evil and mean Israel is.

The 1967 war is the perfect example.[/size][/QUOTE]If someone is commiting injustices against you and your people, of course you're not going to sit back and take it. Sure palestinians start a lot of the fighting, but it's because of the constant injustices that occur. People continue to be abused and humiliated at military checkpoints. For example, some women are forced to give birth at a checkpint because they won't let them pass.

The root of this entire problem is the Israeli occupation and their constant injustices against palestinians. If these don't stop, palestinians will continue to be angry and more and more militants will be bred from this anger.

Anyway, Israel isn't 'evil and mean' because it has big weapons, but because of how it uses its power. Because they can, they destroy people's homes. Because they can, they jail innocents, because they can, they continue to rob more and more land from the palestinians. Because they can, they impose curfews at times, and anyone caught outside, or even near their windows, will be shot, no matter how young or innocent.

There can't be peace if there is injustice. Therefore, palestinians will continue to fight to stop injustices occuring against them. If Israel simply treats palestinians like human beings, most of the fighting would stop, exept from those who refuse to accept israel's existance. But alot of people are okay if Israel simply returns to the 1967 borders, because any land taken after that time is illegaly occupied.

Anyway, to Boba Fett, I guess if holding someone hostage and threatening to kill them counts as terrorism, then I guess it's terrorism. Okay.[/COLOR]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']If someone is commiting injustices against you and your people, of course you're not going to sit back and take it.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]This is why Israel, after decades of insincere negotiations by the Palestinians, suicide bombings, invasions and most recently the kidnapping of this solider, acts decisively when threatened. What did Hamas expect if they took a hostage? Twelve years have passed since an Israeli soldier has been taken hostage, and now we're seeing the reason why.

It's time the Palestinian people stopped turning a blind eye to Hamas and turned over the militants among them. Only then, with Hamas out of power, can Palestine hope to become a nation.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Sure palestinians start a lot of the fighting, but it's because of the constant injustices that occur. People continue to be abused and humiliated at military checkpoints. For example, some women are forced to give birth at a checkpint because they won't let them pass.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]Checkpoints are implemented to prevent suicide bombings. Perhaps if Palestinians hadn?t made a habit of blowing up buses full of Israelis, they wouldn't have this problem.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Anyway, Israel isn't 'evil and mean' because it has big weapons, but because of how it uses its power. Because they can, they destroy people's homes. Because they can, they jail innocents, because they can, they continue to rob more and more land from the palestinians. Because they can, they impose curfews at times, and anyone caught outside, or even near their windows, will be shot, no matter how young or innocent.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=green]Israelis don't go mindlessly shooting anyone out past curfew. Recently many illegal Jewish settlements were forcibly dismantled by the Israeli government. It's regrettable that innocent Palestinians have, are and will continue to die because terrorists hide in their midst.

I believe that Israel wants peace, and doesn't deserve to be classified as mean, let alone evil.

This is evil:[/color]

[URL=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5131404.stm][quote name='BBC']The body of a teenage Israeli settler abducted by Palestinian militants on Sunday has been recovered by Israeli troops near the West Bank town of Ramallah.[/quote][/url]

[Farto the Magic]

[QUOTE]I don't see how attacking soldiers can be called terrorism. Isn't this war? The soldiers killed and kidnapped could well have killed a few palestinians each.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkGreen]This isn't war, no declarations have been made and, Israel having nukes, war is really not a good idea.[/COLOR]
[QUOTE]Of course the arab countries didn't like it when Israel was founded. Thousands of palestinians lost their homes in 1948 (including my grandparents) who were from Ashkalon[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkGreen]What happens when you fall off a horse? Let me tell you a little story about african slaves who aren't anymore and now are just as respected as everyone else. That's the story right there. The moral is, get over it and move on. Homes can be rebuilt and there's millions of acres of land in the world. They could take land from Iowa, its all wasted anyway. Also let me mention that that land was stolen from the Jews way back in the day. Your grandparents lost their home when Israel was formed. You're upset by that. I lost my home ten years ago in a tornado. I have a new house since then.[/COLOR]
[QUOTE]The arabs waged war with Israel, and lost, but that's no reason that Israeli has the right to exist.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkGreen]Dude, everything has the right to exist. Who is one man to tell the next that he doesn't desrve existence? Both of them are equally deserving.[/COLOR]
[QUOTE]For example, some women are forced to give birth at a checkpint because they won't let them pass.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=DarkGreen]Now that one is crap. I'd doubt that many women give birth to bombs.

Sorry if it seems like I'm ragging on you Chabi, but my opinion differs. Personally, I don't think that Israel should've gone all John Wayne cowboy-style and blown stuff up like that, but then again, Palastine shouldn't have taken that guy. They should just get both of the leaders in a room for 1 day to negotiate peace. After the 1 day is up, if there's no peace, there's war. Get it out of their systems. Palastine, it seems, wants war. Israel would probably be, after saddened, more than happy to oblige. Of course, everybody would call their friends over and it'll be WWIII, so maybe my idea sucks. But they should try REALLY hard to make peace a possibility.

And why doesn't Palastine recognize Israel's existence? Just wondering.[/COLOR]

[AomiArmster]

all i know is.. 'what the hell are you expecting?" palestinain militants-- their actions are getting..
well look at it this way most of the world ( well those with common sense) are getting sick of these random abudctions and executions--- getting out of hand and sickening
so what should we expect Israel to do?
whoop *** and ask questions later- i guess, sad, sad sa,d horrible yes
but enough is enough
yeah.. somethings don't change with time.. but c'mon already
i dont know- i want to say things but i'm holding back
i just think its about time to switch tatics, act more like your enemy than just what you are..
this back and forth bombings & killings dont seem to help anyone in any situation =\

its like ( argh this is upsetting.. i know. war sucks butt ) dont step on peoples' toes and not expect to get your knees smashed.. or something..

and i totally agree with Boba Fett

[KatanaViolet]

[QUOTE=Lost Lightbulb]Israel strikes Palestine in retribution for a previous attack, Palestine strikes israel in response. In resonse to that, Israel strikes Palestine and so on and so forth form here into eternity.

Sucks don't it?

As long as retribution and the ole "eye for eye" addage is exchanged and exchanged, with no side wiling to be the better one and walk away, there will be no peace. It's not excusable to justify the kidnappings with "well, they started it!" when all the troubles in the mid-east today are based in revenge and retribution.

Until the pair of them stop squabbling like 3 year olds, peace will be an unachievable goal.[/QUOTE]

While I totally agree with you, I must acknowledge that it is alot more complicated than that.

If Israeli's were detaining women and children without any justifiable reason, I don't really blame for the Palestinians for retaliating.
By killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping one, it would be hard for the Israeli's to just sit back. And I don't think that they would negotiate with "terrorists" either, at least most military doesn't (maybe just depends on the circumstances). One can only hope is that perhaps Israel would comply and at least let out the innocent people they are detaining *COUGHguantanamoCOUGH* and that no one else needs to be killed.

[QUOTE=Farto The Magic]

This isn't war, no declarations have been made and, Israel having nukes, war is really not a good idea.
[/QUOTE]
I think they ment just the whole issue with the Middle East. Iraq, Afghanistan, who knows where else...



[quote name=' Farto The Magic']What happens when you fall off a horse? Let me tell you a little story about african slaves who aren't anymore and now are just as respected as everyone else. That's the story right there. The moral is, get over it and move on. Homes can be rebuilt and there's millions of acres of land in the world. They could take land from Iowa, its all wasted anyway. Also let me mention that that land was stolen from the Jews way back in the day. Your grandparents lost their home when Israel was formed. You're upset by that. I lost my home ten years ago in a tornado. I have a new house since then.[/quote]
Not to get off topic, but there are ALOT of displaced people there. Haven't you watched the whole Angelina interview. That braught up alot of discussion, and for those people it isn't as easy as just brushing yourself off and picking up where you left off.
If the richer countries put more money into helping these people find homes rather than starting new wars then perhaps that would be a step.

[QUOTE= Farto The Magic]
[QUOTE]
For example, some women are forced to give birth at a checkpint because they won't let them pass. [/QUOTE]


Now that one is crap. I'd doubt that many women give birth to bombs.

Sorry if it seems like I'm ragging on you Chabi, but my opinion differs. Personally, I don't think that Israel should've gone all John Wayne cowboy-style and blown stuff up like that, but then again, Palastine shouldn't have taken that guy. They should just get both of the leaders in a room for 1 day to negotiate peace. After the 1 day is up, if there's no peace, there's war. Get it out of their systems. Palastine, it seems, wants war. Israel would probably be, after saddened, more than happy to oblige. Of course, everybody would call their friends over and it'll be WWIII, so maybe my idea sucks. But they should try REALLY hard to make peace a possibility.

And why doesn't Palastine recognize Israel's existence? Just wondering.[/QUOTE]
Well we at last somewhat agree!
Except at that first part, it's not because they think they are hiding bombs in their uterus' (at least I hope not). They are just stuck there, or for whatever reason they just simply can't pass and are forced to give birth there.
I agree that the two sides should both strive for peace.
Alot needs to happen between the Western world and that region before we make any real progress. Sometimes I wonder if what is happening there now is just the foreshadowing to WWIII. I don't think that would be a good idea for any country.
Either way, there needs to be some discussion and negotiations happening there.

[TheShinje]

[QUOTE=KatanaViolet]While I totally agree with you, I must acknowledge that it is alot more complicated than that.

If Israeli's were detaining women and children without any justifiable reason, I don't really blame for the Palestinians for retaliating.
By killing two Israeli soldiers and kidnapping one, it would be hard for the Israeli's to just sit back. And I don't think that they would negotiate with "terrorists" either, at least most military doesn't (maybe just depends on the circumstances). One can only hope is that perhaps Israel would comply and at least let out the innocent people they are detaining *COUGHguantanamoCOUGH* and that no one else needs to be killed.
[/QUOTE]
[color=crimson]Where does the buck stop then? If the Palestinians reason for kidnapping and possibly killing this soldier is revenge for Israeli's imprisioning women and children, what stops Israel from retalliating and claiming a mandate for it as retalliation for the kidnappings? Surely then, for that revenge, the Palestinians are going to have to take revenge for that! It's ridiculous and unsolvable. I agree totally with the Lightbulb on this one.

And who determined their innocence, was it because they are women and children? Because they couldn't possibly carry a gun or a bomb and kill someone, could they? Sorry to rain on your parade, but the whole women and children thing, it just seems like a ploy to get international sypathy through the eyes of the seemingly innocent. It's re-treaded in every facet of society, from this conflict to television standards campaigners crying "won't someone please think of the children!!1!1!"

Besides, Palestinian millitants aren't exactly saints when it comes to avoiding maiming womend and children in their bus-bomb bloodbaths, and we're only talking incarceration here on the Israeli's side, and I don't necessarily believe that all the women and children captured are innocents.

Like Boba Fett said earlier, it makes no sense for the Israeli government to lock up innocents when it costs their government to do so, and it's totally pointless.

Palestinians need to get over this whole "Zionist conspiracy" to take them out and over-run their land. For goodness sake, they just gave you the Gaza Strip back!

Israelis just need to, yeah, they need to get over having a state of their own, and just accept getting wiped off the map. Yeah, that'll settle those pesky bomber's bloodlust. :smirk:

[COUGH]Guantanamo bay detainees were captured during battle with the taliban regime, and are not all innocents caught up by great satan uncle sam's drift net of inustice![/COUGH][/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[color=#004a6f][quote name='Rapture Ruckus][color=crimson']And who determined their innocence, was it because they are women and children? Because they couldn't possibly carry a gun or a bomb and kill someone, could they? Sorry to rain on your parade, but the whole women and children thing, it just seems like a ploy to get international sypathy through the eyes of the seemingly innocent. It's re-treaded in every facet of society, from this conflict to television standards campaigners crying "won't someone please think of the children!!1!1!"[/color][/quote]It's kind of rare to have female suicide bobers and militants. A few women in the jails have been arrested because they were planning on making a bombing. But the rest of them are jailed for innapropriate reasons, such as campainging for palestinian rights, attending protests, or trying to stop soldiers from demoloshing their homes. Some women even gave birth to their babies there, and since they haven't been released, kept their babies with them to be able to nurse them. I know a story of one child that has been who spend his first three years in jail, and the Israelis decided he was old enough to leave his mother, so they sent him back to his family. I know it's best the child doesn't keep staying in the jail, but he is devestated from being seperated from his mother, and she really hasn't done anything wrong, so she should be released. She was just a human rights activist, and this is the truth, so don't give me any crap about how "she probably was an evil civilian bombing militant".

The thing is there's also plenty of men that are jailed for innapropriate reasons, just like the women were, but the ratio of the innocent and guilty is obviouslt going to be different for the two genders.

As for the children, most of them aren't too young, probably ten to twleve, but they get jailed for a long time for getting caught throwing rocks or breaking curfews, or the other reason I mentioned before for the adults. But they're still just kids. They shouldn't be locked up for months or years at a time. I know some of the older ones, the teenagers, may be involved with the militants, so it would make sense to lock them up.

[quote name='Rapture Ruckus][color=crimson']Like Boba Fett said earlier, it makes no sense for the Israeli government to lock up innocents when it costs their government to do so, and it's totally pointless.[/color][/quote]It's a fact that some Israeli soldiers are complete jerks who intentionally hurt civilians and enjoy seeing them suffer.

They only argument you have for Israelis huriting civilians on purpise is simply denying it, but it's true, it's completely true. You can't just cover it up and let them get away with it. I'm not saying all, or even the majoroty of Israelis are like this, but this really does happen. But some decent Israeli soldiers want to help put a stop to it.[/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='Chabichou][font=verdana']It's a fact that some Israeli soldiers are complete jerks who intentionally hurt civilians and enjoy seeing them suffer.[/font][/quote][font=trebuchet ms]It's also a fact that some Palestinians are complete jerks who intentionally blow themselves or their cars up in order to hurt civilians. Both sides have their fair share of civilian-killing jerks. Whoopee. Now both sides need to realise the fact and reign those people in. We can't have peace until they stop.

I can't even come down in favour of one side morally. The Palestinians lost a load of land when Israel was created, and that wasn't fair. It made a lot of Palestinian people homeless. But the Israelites, as a people, were homeless before Israel was formed. That wasn't fair either, and it's not nice for the Palestinians, but the Israelites deserved a home and the necessary land wasn't just going to materialise floating up in the sky.

Neither side can claim to wholly be the victim; neither side can lay claim to the moral high ground. Before we start seeing compromise and humility in the leadership on both sides of the fence, nothing will get resolved. It'll just be left up to both sides' respective contingent of civilian-killing jerks.[/font]

[KatanaViolet]

[quote name='Rapture Ruckus][color=crimson']Where does the buck stop then? If the Palestinians reason for kidnapping and possibly killing this soldier is revenge for Israeli's imprisioning women and children, what stops Israel from retalliating and claiming a mandate for it as retalliation for the kidnappings? Surely then, for that revenge, the Palestinians are going to have to take revenge for that! It's ridiculous and unsolvable. I agree totally with the Lightbulb on this one. //snip//[/color][/quote]

I wasn't disagreeing with Lightbulb at all. Just adding some thoughts, more or less. It is true, how can there be an end in sight when it's all just eye for an eye?

But the women and children thing I wholeheartedly disaggree with. Yes, women can be involved in terror plots, but children?
Although I'm not saying that children are totally sheltered from militant propaghanda, because I'm sure they aren't. Children are impressionable, and I'm sure it wouldn't be hard to force or coerce them into joining extremist/militant organizations. But I don't think they are the ones who should be held accountable, they are not the masterminds of what is happening, they are merely the pawns and are completely expendable. I'm sure they did not do anything because they chose to. Either way, it's wrong for them to even be involved in it.

[quote]The UN Security Council Resolution 1261 "strongly condemns... recruitment and use of children in armed conflict in violation of international law." (UN Sec. Council Res. 1261 (1999), art. 3, 8, 13.)[/quote]

As for them being imprisoned, I don't think "guilty until proven innocent" is exactly the way to go. It may not be cost effective to lock up innocent people, but in Guantanamo, they have people locked up for no grounds whatsoever except the hunch that they might be a threat to the American people. No phone call home, less-than-humane environments, do not pass go, do not get bail. It's the same mentality. Yea, I'm sure alot of them are guilty. But I doubt every last one of them are.

I have a love/hate relationship with your response, I see what you're saying, but I don't necessarily agree.
But then again, I don't think there is any single solution to it either.
Meh. Delicate situation in the middle east, and I don't see it ending any time soon.

EDIT:
I actually found this on Wikipedia, I thought it would be relevant to my post:

[quote][B]Israeli-Palestinian conflict[/B]
Professor of Georgetown University William O'Brien wrote about active participation of Palestinian children in the First Intifada: "It appears that a substantial number, if not the majority, of troops of the intifada are young people, including elementary schoolchildren. They are engaged in throwing stones and Molotov cocktails and other forms of violence." (Law and Morality in Israel's War With the PLO, New York: Routledge, 1991)

According to the Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers 2004 Global Report on the Use of Child Soldiers, there have been at least nine documented suicide attacks involving Palestinian minors between October 2000 and March 2004, "[t]here was no evidence of systematic recruitment of children by Palestinian armed groups. However, children are used as messengers and couriers, and in some cases as fighters and suicide bombers in attacks on Israeli soldiers and civilians. All the main political groups involve children in this way, including Fatah, Hamas, Islamic Jihad, and the Popular Front for the Liberation of Palestine." [1]. According to Israeli security forces, there have been 229 cases of minors involved in militant activity.

Arab journalist Huda Al-Hussein wrote in the London newspaper Al-Sharq Al-Awsat: "While UN Organizations save child-soldiers, especially in Africa, from the control of militia leaders who hurl them into the furnace of gang-fighting, some Palestinian leaders... consciously issue orders with the purpose of ending their childhood, even if it means their last breath." (Oct. 27, 2000, translated by MEMRI, Arab Journalist Decries Palestinian Child-Soldiers Special Dispatch 146, Nov. 1, 2000)

In an interview with the Kuwaiti newspaper Azzaman (June 20, 2002), Mahmoud Abbas condemned the practice, saying that he opposed "that little children go to die", stating that "[i]t is a horrible thing. At least 40 children in Rafah became cripples after their hands were blown off by pipe bombs. They received 5 shekels [slightly over $1] to throw them" (Quoted in the Jordanian newspaper Alrai) [2] [3].

On May 23, 2005, Amnesty International reiterated its calls to Palestinian armed groups to put an immediate end to the use of children in armed activities: "Palestinian armed groups must not use children under any circumstances to carry out armed attacks or to transport weapons or other material." [4] [/quote]
These children aren't criminals, they're victims of war.

[indent][font=trebuchet ms][color=darkgreen]No need to quote Rapture's entire post, KV. --Raiyuu[/color][/font][/indent] EDIT: Thanks Rai, my bad. :animeshy:

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]I usually avoid threads on this topic since I find both sides annoying in that it?s a never-ending they did this so we will do this and so on and so on.[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Furthermore, a major factor that contributed to this raid was the fact that on June 20th, about a dozen civilians were killed on the beach by Israeli missiles. One girl lost her entire family.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]So how does that justify killing two people and kidnapping another? It makes no sense that they are asking for the release of women and children instead of justice for the civilians who were harmed by the missiles. Seems more like they used it as an excuse to continue the pointless violence in that area. [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']The massive sonic boom often breaks windows, shakes entire apartment buildings and terrifies the people of Gaza. It can cause misscarriages too.[/COLOR][/quote]That statement has no basis in medical fact. Even when a detailed evaluation is performed, when a woman miscarries the cause remains unknown in about half of the cases. I?m not saying that using sonic boom?s is nice, only that making such a claim is off the deep end since it?s not provable. [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Anyway, what are your opinions of this matter? Is Israel's response justified, going a little overboard? Were the militants justified in holding the soldier hostange in exchange for innocent women and children held in Israeli jails? Should Israel release these prisoners?

I personally think that they should release the prisoners. There's no reason to go to such extremes to save the soldier if the simple solution is agreeing to release innocents.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I think neither side is justified. Nor do I think the prisoners should be released in response to the threat of killing the soldier. I?m not in favor of keeping the women and children in jail, but now they?ve put themselves in the position of if Israel does let them go it will encourage further kidnappings and killings.[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Of course the arab countries didn't like it when Israel was founded. Thousands of palestinians lost their homes in 1948 (including my grandparents) who were from Ashkalon. Britain had control of the reigion during the mandate, so they resricted palestinian movement and sold land to jews. The palestinians couldn't stop that from happening. Then in 1948 Israel declares independence and starts kicking palestinians out. The arabs waged war with Israel, and lost, but that's no reason that Israeli has the right to exist. It was created through dishonest ways. I can't believe anyone should be okay with people invading other countries and stealing their land just because they won a war "fair and square". What if let's say, France decided to invade the U.S and make it their new land. Of course Americans would fight to the bitter end, and even if France won, they would continue to fight, just like what the palestinians are doing now.

Just because you think the creatiion of Israel was legal and fair, doens't mean the arabs think so. The fact remains that palestinians were kicked out, and they have every right to try to get back their land. My grandparents have the right to the land that was stolen from them.

And in 1967, again my grandparents had to flee to Jordan to escape the war, and lost yet another home. My mother was 5 at the time.

So tell me, why shouldn't palestinians fight to get their homes back?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]And I?m sure that the Indians didn?t like it when America was founded either. That?s not exactly a new thing, one group losing land to another. Everyone has the right to exist and if we were to fall back on the it was dishonest how it was created, well we might as well get rid of quite a few countries since many of them were not completely honest when they were set up.

Your grandparents lost their land, so at this point why are they still fighting? Getting it back is unlikely to happen so on some level I don?t understand why people refuse to move on. As you put it they waged a war with Israel and lost. You?re assuming that everyone would continue to fight even if it was hopeless. If America was invaded and it was apparent that I could not kick them out, I would want to end it instead of needlessly killing even more people over a piece of land.

Somewhere down the line the cycle of hatred needs to end and if it were me I'd want to be one of the ones who ended it. [/COLOR]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]Whoa. The situation is really getting bad now. Now Hezbollah, a lebanese militant group has kidnapped another two soldiers. Israel has replied with extreme force and killed 55 people, the vast majority being civilians.

It makes me so angry how they can get away with that. What Israel is doing is just plain terrorism. Don't get me wrong, Israel has the right to defend itself from any further attacks from militant groups, but why must civilians pay the price for what these militants do? Why must Israel bomb the airport, bridges, and people homes too? It's so sad.[/COLOR]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] Why must Israel bomb the airport, bridges, and people homes too? It's so sad.[/COLOR][/quote]

Why must radicals continue to kidnap and kill Israeli soldiers? Do they not realize the consequences of their actions? That they will be responsible for many, many deaths? It's so sad.

Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese government, so it makes sense for Israel to attack Lebanon when Hezbollah kidnaps Israeli soldiers.

Lebanese and Palestinian civilians are unfortunately being caught in the crossfire here - but this is because they continue to allow radical militants to hide in their midst. Until that changes, they will continue being collateral damage when Hamas or Hezbollah decides it wants to start a little controversy by attacking Israel.