Israeli action in Gaza

[Harry]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']It makes me so angry how they can get away with that. What Israel is doing is just plain terrorism. Don't get me wrong, Israel has the right to defend itself from any further attacks from militant groups, but why must civilians pay the price for what these militants do? Why must Israel bomb the airport, bridges, and people homes too? It's so sad.[/COLOR][/quote]
Because civilians support the militant group? Hezbollah is pratically the governing body in southern Lebanon.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Whoa. The situation is really getting bad now. Now Hezbollah, a lebanese militant group has kidnapped another two soldiers. Israel has replied with extreme force and killed 55 people, the vast majority being civilians.

It makes me so angry how they can get away with that. What Israel is doing is just plain terrorism. Don't get me wrong, Israel has the right to defend itself from any further attacks from militant groups, but why must civilians pay the price for what these militants do? Why must Israel bomb the airport, bridges, and people homes too? It's so sad.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]So Hezbollah should be allowed to get away with terrorism and Israel should just take it? Why are you say Israel is the terrorist when it is the other group who keeps kidnapping soldiers? The harsh reality is that Hezbollah knows that Israel is likely to respond with force and they don?t care! If they did they would quite doing things that are going to provoke a response. They know that civilians will get hurt and on some level they don?t seem to care. And I can?t say that the civilians are all innocent as they don?t do anything to stop the militants in their group. Maybe they can?t do anything, but do they even try? [/COLOR]

[Papa Smurf]

I spent ten minutes trying to figure out how to say this diplomatically, but I realized there was no nice way to say it. So here goes.

If Hezbollah and HAMAS continue to provoke Israel, Hezbollah and HAMAS will cease to exist, because Israel [b]will completely obliterate them[/b]. This is no exaggeration. Israel has a far superior military, and can make tactical/surgical strikes apparently from what I've read.

You want peace in that area? It'll come in one of two ways:

1) The Militant Hezbollah and company get exiled.

2) The Militant Hezbollah and company get annihilated.

Israel has put up with a lot of **** over the past 50 years, and quite frankly, I view Israel as very similar to the United States back before World War II. After Pearl Harbor, the situation was described as "having woken the sleeping giant."

Well, in that part of the Middle East, Israel was that sleeping giant. Now that giant is awake and is on the warpath. People need to learn to make nice with the giant, or else they're going to get flattened.

And getting flattened is exactly what's happening to Hezbollah right now.

Maybe those militants should learn something?

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Whoa. The situation is really getting bad now. Now Hezbollah, a lebanese militant group has kidnapped another two soldiers. Israel has replied with extreme force and killed 55 people, the vast majority being civilians.

It makes me so angry how they can get away with that. What Israel is doing is just plain terrorism. Don't get me wrong, Israel has the right to defend itself from any further attacks from militant groups, but why must civilians pay the price for what these militants do? Why must Israel bomb the airport, bridges, and people homes too? It's so sad.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
Bridges, airports, etc... all of them are stratigic targets. Isreal is trying to neautrialize the terrorists in the area. Terrorism is such that a terrorist is almost indistinguishable from a civilian, so sometimes civilian targets get caught in the crossfire - it's called 'collateral damage' and it's rarley intentional. Civilians wouldn't be killed if the Palestinians weren't resorting to terrorist tactics.

Why is it that when Palestinians kill/kidnap innocent people, you say nothing, but when Isreal retaliates, you call them wrong and evil and 'terrorists'?[/COLOR]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE]Why is it that when Palestinians kill/kidnap innocent people, you say nothing, but when Isreal retaliates, you call them wrong and evil and 'terrorists'?[/QUOTE]I find it quite infuriating that everyone is ignoring the fact that I have, a countless number of times, condemed terrorist attacks from militant groups. I do not support them in any way, though sometimes I understand why some people resort to such extreme measures.

I like the rest of you don't believe that militant groups should get away with terrorist attacks. We've accepted it as a fact, so there is no reason to discuss whether the militants are terrorists or not.

But I also believe that it's hypocritical for anyone to call these groups the "terrorists" when Israel also kills innocet civilians, and and many more than the militants too. The militants, and the general population for the matter are called terrorists, while Israelis are not.

I also blame the militant groups for provoking Israel, and causing it respond harshly, but that certainly does not mean that Israel is not responisble for its actions.

[QUOTE]Lebanese and Palestinian civilians are unfortunately being caught in the crossfire here - but this is because they continue to allow radical militants to hide in their midst. Until that changes, they will continue being collateral damage when Hamas or Hezbollah decides it wants to start a little controversy by attacking Israel.[/QUOTE]There is absolutely no justification in killing innocent people.

And would you please stop blaming the general population for "hiding" the terrorists? The terrorists have families you know, many of which do not support their terrorist activities, or don't even know about them. These terrorists, simply go home to their families, and their families are killed along with them because they happen to be in the same house.

[QUOTE]And I can?t say that the civilians are all innocent as they don?t do anything to stop the militants in their group. Maybe they can?t do anything, but do they even try? [/QUOTE]Ummm.... who are the ones with the guns? That's right, the militants. I hardly expect unarmed civilians to approach these people. And there are those who do apporach them, tell them to stop but are beaten or even killed by the militants.

It is true that some unarmed people support these militants and hide them, but that still doesn't justify the killing of innocent people. It makes no sense to say that just because some civilians help the militants, that means you can attack and kill any of them.

There are children being killed there. Does that not matter to any of you?

[QUOTE]And getting flattened is exactly what's happening to Hezbollah right now.

Maybe those militants should learn something?[/QUOTE]As far as I can tell, it is only the civilians being 'flattened right now, while Hezbollah countinues to fire rockets into Israeli towns. Israel isn't really accomplishing anything. It isn't stopping the attacks from Hezbollah, and instead is killing innocents with their disporportionate attacks.[/COLOR]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
But I also believe that it's hypocritical for anyone to call these groups the "terrorists" when Israel also kills innocet civilians, and and many more than the militants too. The militants, and the general population for the matter are called terrorists, while Israelis are not.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
A terrorist is, by general definition, someone who deliberatly targets civilian targets with the goal of causing terror (Hence the name) and panic in the civilian population. The Isreali's aren't TRYING to kill civilians, they're trying to neutralize terrorists - if terrorists continue to hide amongst civilians than Isreal won't have much choice. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]

There is absolutely no justification in killing innocent people.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
The Isreali's have a right to defend themselves. If the terrorists continue to hide amongst innocent people, innocent people will die - and it's not the fault of Isreal. [/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
As far as I can tell, it is only the civilians being 'flattened right now, while Hezbollah countinues to fire rockets into Israeli towns. Israel isn't really accomplishing anything. It isn't stopping the attacks from Hezbollah, and instead is killing innocents with their disporportionate attacks.[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=Sienna]

The Hezbollah (And the Hamas etc) are perfectly willing to use their people as a shield, so you can't blame the Isreali's for obliging them. [/COLOR]

[Papa Smurf]

[quote name='Chabichou][color=#004a6f']As far as I can tell, it is only the civilians being 'flattened right now, while Hezbollah countinues to fire rockets into Israeli towns. Israel isn't really accomplishing anything. It isn't stopping the attacks from Hezbollah, and instead is killing innocents with their disporportionate attacks.[/color][/quote]
So maybe HAMAS and Hezbollah should not be using [i]civilian[/i] buildings as rocket/missile launch sites? Please be sensible.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Red 6][COLOR=Sienna]
A terrorist is, by general definition, someone who deliberatly targets civilian targets with the goal of causing terror (Hence the name) and panic in the civilian population. The Isreali's aren't TRYING to kill civilians, they're trying to neutralize terrorists - if terrorists continue to hide amongst civilians than Isreal won't have much choice. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]No, they are puporsely terrorising the civilians to pressure the militants into releasing the kidnapped soldiers. Basically, their message is "give us back the soldeirs or we will destroy your country and your people". Israel is using terrorist tactics as much as Hamas and Hezbollah.

Israel has the right to defend themselves and to try to get their soldeirs back. But they are using the wrong methods.


[QUOTE=Red 6][COLOR=Sienna]
The Isreali's have a right to defend themselves. If the terrorists continue to hide amongst innocent people, innocent people will die - and it's not the fault of Isreal. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]Ummmm.... yes it is their fault if they are knowingly killing these civilians. Alot of civilians that have no connection whatsoever to the militants are being killed. I still don't see why anyone would justify this.

Honestly, put yourself in these people's shoes. I'm pretty sure none of you would appreciate being killed for some other people's crimes.

[quote name='Red 6][COLOR=Sienna']The Hezbollah (And the Hamas etc) are perfectly willing to use their people as a shield, so you can't blame the Isreali's for obliging them.[/COLOR][/quote]Decent people don't give in to terrorists and "oblige' them by killing the human shields.

There are other tactics they can use that won't result in killing innocents, if they would simply pause for a moment and think rationally. Perhaps, warning the innocent people of the attack? Perhaps luring the terrorists out with various techniques, cooperating with the civilians and having them direct them to the terrorists. The civilians are not going to cooperate and help the Israelis if they are willing to kill them.[/COLOR]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]No, they are puporsely terrorising the civilians to pressure the militants into releasing the kidnapped soldiers. Basically, their message is "give us back the soldeirs or we will destroy your country and your people". Israel is using terrorist tactics as much as Hamas and Hezbollah.

Israel has the right to defend themselves and to try to get their soldeirs back. But they are using the wrong methods.

[/COLOR][/QUOTE][COLOR=Sienna]

Ok, what do you prepose they do? What other methods are there? The terrorists hide amongst civilians - they can't just search every house and every person. Their only course of action is to target an entire civilian body in order to root out terrorists.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]


Ummmm.... yes it is their fault if they are knowingly killing these civilians. Alot of civilians that have no connection whatsoever to the militants are being killed. I still don't see why anyone would justify this.

Honestly, put yourself in these people's shoes. I'm pretty sure none of you would appreciate being killed for some other people's crimes.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
They don't knowingly kill civilains - they knowingly kill terrorists. Everyone else is collateral damage - it's unfortunate, but it's part of war. And it's the only way to deal with these kind of people.

And no, I wouldn't like to be killed for someone elses actions - but I don't see what that has to do with this. If someone elses crimes put the civilians in danger, if they hide amongst civilians, than it's their fault. They antagonize Isreal into a fight, and than cower in civilian areas, and yet it's Isreal's fault that civilians get fragged?[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]

Decent people don't give in to terrorists and "oblige' them by killing the human shields.
[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=Sienna]Decent people don't win wars, either.[/COLOR]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]
There are other tactics they can use that won't result in killing innocents, if they would simply pause for a moment and think rationally. Perhaps, warning the innocent people of the attack? Perhaps luring the terrorists out with various techniques, cooperating with the civilians and having them direct them to the terrorists. The civilians are not going to cooperate and help the Israelis if they are willing to kill them.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
You warn the innocent people, you warn the terrorists. I mean, what do you expect Isreali to do? They can't just ask "Hey, who're the terrorists? Ok, thanks ma'am." and just go capture them. They don't have the resources, and they'd lose to many troops to traps and false information (Since any civilian can easily be a terrorists). It would be a millitary disaster. It wouldn't work. And besides, it seems that most of the civilians wouldn't WANT to help - why else would they have elected Hamas?[/COLOR]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Red 6][COLOR=Sienna']Decent people don't win wars, either.[/COLOR][/quote]What makes you think so? Are you admitting that Israel is evil then?

Decent people can win wars, as long as you have a good strategy. The muslim army was under constant threat from the tribe of Quraish in Muhammad's time. The muslims fought and won against armies larger and far better equipped than them. And although islamic governments and their armies aren't decent nowadays, the muslims in muhammad's time certainly were decent, fair people.[/COLOR]

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]What makes you think so? Are you admitting that Israel is evil then?

Decent people can win wars, as long as you have a good strategy. The muslim army was under constant threat from the tribe of Quraish in Muhammad's time. The muslims fought and won against armies larger and far better equipped than them. And although islamic governments and their armies aren't decent nowadays, the muslims in muhammad's time certainly were decent, fair people.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
This isn't a book, or a poem. This is the real world. There's no such thing as knights in shining armour. There is no chivalry. You win wars by hurting your opponent more than he hurts you - if that means civilians get caught in the crossfire, it is unfortunate, but it's a part of war. If the Palestinians don't want to fight a war, than they should stop provoking the Isreali's. "Like poking a rancor with a stunstick," as they say. [/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='Chabichou']Are you admitting that Israel is evil then?[/quote][font=trebuchet ms]Chabi, there's no point trying to 'catch out' the people arguing against you like this. All Zignus X-6 was saying is that he isn't claiming Israel is acting 'decently'. Israel (and can we [b]please[/b] start spelling that right, people?) isn't evil; neither is Palestine. It's all just [i]people.[/i] People aren't pure evil, people aren't pure good, they're all just people and in this stupid Gaza situation they're all behaving as pig-headedly as each other.[/font]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=Sienna][quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Decent people can win wars, as long as you have a good strategy. The muslim army was under constant threat from the tribe of Quraish in Muhammad's time. The muslims fought and won against armies larger and far better equipped than them. And although islamic governments and their armies aren't decent nowadays, the muslims in muhammad's time certainly were decent, fair people.[/COLOR][/quote]There is nothing about war that is decent. The idea that armies or people in the past were decent is stretching things. None of us lived back then so we haven?t a clue whether the governments were decent or not. It?s fairly common for countries to conveniently forget to record events that put them in a negative light. It?s part of why uncovering such things is considered a scandal. I see no reason why people in the past would be any different. So telling me that they were at one time decent fair people is something you can?t even prove.

Others have already pointed out that those responsible for kidnapping the soldiers are not going to willingly give Israel a target that doesn?t include civilians whether they are innocent or not. Even if they only target military bases, you still are going to have people who are not soldiers, but merely their families who will also get hurt if they live close to the locations.

To expect Israel to do nothing when provoked is naïve. Especially when the Palestines actions are those of a terrorist. Israel has often taken the stance of not giving into such demands so I have to wonder why they thought it would be any different this time. [/COLOR]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]But I also believe that it's hypocritical for anyone to call these groups the "terrorists" when Israel also kills innocet civilians, and and many more than the militants too. The militants, and the general population for the matter are called terrorists, while Israelis are not.

I also blame the militant groups for provoking Israel, and causing it respond harshly, but that certainly does not mean that Israel is not responisble for its actions.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]No one said Israel wasn't responsible for their actions. But it still remains that they are not the one who started kidnapping soldiers. They aren?t holding them as prisoners of war but rather as leverage to get what they want. It was not an act of war but one of terrorism and in that respect the soldiers are just as innocent as the civilians who have been killed. [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']There is absolutely no justification in killing innocent people.[/COLOR][/quote]So are we saying it?s okay to kidnap and kill soldiers? Just because they are soldiers doesn?t mean they aren't innocent of wrongdoing. Why are they demanding the release of women and children instead of demanding justice for the people who were killed on the beach? Were the soldiers who were kidnapped directly responsible? If they were I might could understand it a little more, Otherwise this whole mess makes no sense whatsoever. [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Ummm.... who are the ones with the guns? That's right, the militants. I hardly expect unarmed civilians to approach these people. And there are those who do apporach them, tell them to stop but are beaten or even killed by the militants.

It is true that some unarmed people support these militants and hide them, but that still doesn't justify the killing of innocent people. It makes no sense to say that just because some civilians help the militants, that means you can attack and kill any of them.

There are children being killed there. Does that not matter to any of you?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]Sure they may be the ones with the guns, but that doesn?t mean that every single person hurt in the attack was a civilian. I never said it was okay to kill children and civilians, I was trying to say that not everyone is as innocent as they would have you to believe. I feel bad for those who are not part of this mess and are being killed simply because they live in that area. But the militants do not care if innocent civilians are hurt which is why they hide among them making them targets.

Actually if they do support them, then they know that they are putting themselves at risk. Are you saying Israel should just give into any demand they make and let them keep kidnapping and killing soldiers? Doing so would be foolish as it would just encourage more kidnapping any time Israel did something they didn?t like. [/COLOR]

[Papa Smurf]

I was watching the news earlier today, and some analysts were talking about the military strength of the opposing factions.

It's interesting to point out that apparently, the [i]only[/i] nation over there that can come anywhere close to matching Israel's military is Iran. Syria has numbers, but their equipment is ancient WWII Soviet leftovers. They've got out-dated Russian MIGs from what I've heard.

Meanwhile, Israel has got state-of-the-art everything, including some 100-200 nuclear warheads in storage.

Methinks that HAMAS and Hezbollah are tragically stupid at this point...as is any Middle Eastern nation wanting to start **** with Israel.

See, Israel is only the "evil" one here if you're sympathetic to the kids who have been picking on the shrimp for years on the playground, then the shrimp grows up and learns how to fight...and fights a hell of a lot better than his tormentors.

And I'm sorry, but that's pretty much exactly what's happening now, so HAMAS, Hezbollah, Lebanon, Syria, Iran, etc, get absolutely no sympathy from me. It's time for payback, and payback's a *****. Only this ***** is armed to the teeth.

Huzzah!

[TheShinje]

[quote name='Chabichou][color=#004a6f']As far as I can tell, it is only the civilians being 'flattened right now, while Hezbollah countinues to fire rockets into Israeli towns. Israel isn't really accomplishing anything. It isn't stopping the attacks from Hezbollah, and instead is killing innocents with their disporportionate attacks.[/quote][/color]

[color=crimson] Israel is not being disproportionate, it is defending itself from the likes of Hezbollah, who have been intentionally inflaming the situation by kidnapping more soldiers and firing rockets into Israeli cities from the border of Lebanon.

Now at first, I wondered why in the hell they'd bomb Lebanon, but the answer is clear. They're bombing Hezbollah and attempting to weed out this group, who want nothing less than the destruction of the Israeli state, once and or all. Simply put, Hezbollah brought the shitstorm down on itself, and can't just cry foul about it now. If they have bought about their destruction, see if I could care less.

Civilians getting caught in the crossfire is an unfortunate thing, but lets remember; Like the current situation in Iraq this is no conventional war-time army Israel is facing, it is a group of terrorists that owe to no millitary uniform of code of cinduct, and who can easily bleed in with such civillians, to dissapear from the sights of the Israeli forces, and maybe prepare another rocket strike in the near future. With lines as blurred as that, you are bound to get casualties amongst the civillian population. Show me, however, that Israel is intentionally targetting civillians rather than terrorists and I will show you a green dog.[/color]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][QUOTE=Rapture Ruckus][color=crimson]Israel is not being disproportionate, it is defending itself from the likes of Hezbollah, who have been intentionally inflaming the situation by kidnapping more soldiers and firing rockets into Israeli cities from the border of Lebanon.

Show me, however, that Israel is intentionally targetting civillians rather than terrorists and I will show you a green dog.[/color]
[/QUOTE]A total of 230 Lebanese have been killed so far and only 25 Israelis. I'm not saying that Israel is targetting civilians, though it might be. I'm just saying it is knowingly killing civilians. Its target is Hizbollah, but it knows civilians are in the region and bombs anyway without a single care. They give a "warning" for people to evacuate, but they bomb while people are evacuating and end up killing them. "Oh we tried our best" they think. Its because they don't give a damn about innocent Lebanese people.

People are only supporting Israel because they are racist against arabs. The idea that anyone can support Israel after how many innocents it has killed, after how many people it has tortured and punished unfairly, shows just how skewed people morality is. You still think we're all terrorists and we all want to kill you. Grow up and start thinking for yourselves, and stop parroting your power hungry leaders.

Israel started this whole thing by jailing innocent people without charge and keeping them for months or a year at a time, and by their consistent lack of respect for the basic human rights of palestinians and other arabs they have hurt. Why do they deserve peace if they don't give us peace and justice?

People want peace in the region, but to the Israelis this means that palestinians leave them alone and let them carry on occupying and oppressing our people. They can hurt us, but we're not allowed to hurt them.

Anyway, while I hope that no innocent Israelis are hurt, and while I am upset that Hizbollah's actions have brought so much destrution to Lebanon, I hope Hizbollah destroys Israel, gives them a taste of their own medicine. That'll teach Israel once and for all that it is not excused from the the rules of war. That'll teach them to stop collectively punishing our people for the terrorists they themselves have created from their constant oppression of our people. That'll teach them to destroy an entire country for their polical gain. An eye for an eye.

They only want Hizbollah out of Lebanon because it was Hizbollah that drove Israel out Lebanon. They want Hizbollah out so they can occupy southern Lebanon again.[/COLOR]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] I'm not saying that Israel is targetting civilians, though it might be[/color][/quote]

[color=crimson]I doubt it.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] I'm just saying it is knowingly killing civilians. Its target is Hizbollah, but it knows civilians are in the region and bombs anyway without a single care. They give a "warning" for people to evacuate, but they bomb while people are evacuating and end up killing them. "Oh we tried our best" they think. Its because they don't give a damn about innocent Lebanese people.[/color][/quote]

[color=crimson]Civilian casualties are inevitable when fighting in or bombing an urban environment. It has nothing to do about 'giving a damn', 'caring' or 'targeting'- it's simply part of urban warfare. Apathy is not the issue- if Israel wanted to lay waste to thousands of Lebanese civilians then they could have by now. It's just part of that type of war.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']People are only supporting Israel because they are racist against arabs. The idea that anyone can support Israel after how many innocents it has killed, after how many people it has tortured and punished unfairly, shows just how skewed people morality is. You still think we're all terrorists and we all want to kill you. Grow up and start thinking for yourselves, and stop parroting your power hungry leaders.[/quote][/color]

[color=crimson]Don't be ignorant.[/color]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']An eye for an eye.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=crimson]Makes the whole world blind.[/color]

[TheShinje]

[quote name='Chabichou][color=#004a6f']A total of 230 Lebanese have been killed so far and only 25 Israelis. I'm not saying that Israel is targetting civilians, though it might be. I'm just saying it is knowingly killing civilians. Its target is Hizbollah, but it knows civilians are in the region and bombs anyway without a single care. They give a "warning" for people to evacuate, but they bomb while people are evacuating and end up killing them. "Oh we tried our best" they think. Its because they don't give a damn about innocent Lebanese people.[/quote] [color=crimson] Trouble is, if you give too much warning. those terrorists that are the target are allowed to escape as welll. Catch22; they wan't to take out Hezbollah, we will try to warn innocents, but we can't wait for both them AND our targets to escape.[/color]

[quote=Chabichou]
People are only supporting Israel because they are racist against arabs. The idea that anyone can support Israel after how many innocents it has killed, after how many people it has tortured and punished unfairly, shows just how skewed people morality is. You still think we're all terrorists and we all want to kill you. Grow up and start thinking for yourselves, and stop parroting your power hungry leaders.[/quote] [color=crimson]I can't speak for everyone who supprts Israel, but I'm not supporting Israel in this latest conflict because I'm racist against arabs, I'm supporting the Israeli's because they are taking on a millitia that wants nothing else but the destruction of Israel. I have a ton of love for moderate muslims, especially those of you that respect the rights of Israel to have a nation of their own.

Besides, I'm from [b]New Zealand[/b], I have no power hungry leader to parrot, at least not one in a position to do anything about her power hunger. :p
[/color]
[quote=Chabichou]
Israel started this whole thing by jailing innocent people without charge and keeping them for months or a year at a time, and by their consistent lack of respect for the basic human rights of palestinians and other arabs they have hurt. Why do they deserve peace if they don't give us peace and justice?[/quote] [color=crimson] There are other avenues to go down besides bombing Israel, which will only bring down another shitstorm of Israeli retaliation and rightfully so. There are groups out there such as Amnesty International that crusade for human rights and have a large international following. Get them in, plead your case, and get international pressure on Israel to let the innocents go free, I say. But for goodness sake, kidnappings? Rocket attacks? How do you expect the international community not to condone swift action to take out these threats?[/color]

[quote=Chabichou]

Anyway, while I hope that no innocent Israelis are hurt, and while I am upset that Hizbollah's actions have brought so much destrution to Lebanon, I hope Hizbollah destroys Israel, gives them a taste of their own medicine. That'll teach Israel once and for all that it is not excused from the the rules of war. That'll teach them to stop collectively punishing our people for the terrorists they themselves have created from their constant oppression of our people. That'll teach them to destroy an entire country for their polical gain. An eye for an eye.[/quote] [color=crimson] What a contradiction. You hope no innocent Israelis are hurt, yet you'd like to see Hezbollah destroy Israel? Tell me Chabi, how are Hezbollah going to destroy Israel and keep the innocents intact?[/color]

[quote=Chabichou]
They only want Hizbollah out of Lebanon because it was Hizbollah that drove Israel out Lebanon. They want Hizbollah out so they can occupy southern Lebanon again.[/color][/QUOTE] [color=crimson] Well, I don't know about that. In light of recent events, I'd be pretty surprised if Israel didn't occupy South Lebanon, at least for a time. Wether or not the Israelis conspired to have an occupying force in there for any other reason than to destroy Hezbollah, is up to interpretation, I guess.
[/color]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=Sienna][quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]People are only supporting Israel because they are racist against arabs. The idea that anyone can support Israel after how many innocents it has killed, after how many people it has tortured and punished unfairly, shows just how skewed people morality is. You still think we're all terrorists and we all want to kill you. Grow up and start thinking for yourselves, and stop parroting your power hungry leaders.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]The idea that people supporting something makes them raciest towards an entire group of people is not only absurd, but downright ignorant on your part to start calling others racist just because they don?t agree with your views. And what?s this we bit? No one here has said that all Arabs are terrorists. Take a dose of your own advice and grow up yourself.[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']Anyway, while I hope that no innocent Israelis are hurt, and while I am upset that Hizbollah's actions have brought so much destrution to Lebanon, I hope Hizbollah destroys Israel, gives them a taste of their own medicine. That'll teach Israel once and for all that it is not excused from the the rules of war. That'll teach them to stop collectively punishing our people for the terrorists they themselves have created from their constant oppression of our people. That'll teach them to destroy an entire country for their polical gain. [/COLOR][/quote]Let me get this straight, you?re upset that Hizbollah?s actions started this whole mess and yet you want them to destroy Israel? Isn?t that the same thing you just complained about that they can hurt us but not vice versa? How is wiping out Israel okay? You?re infuriated that Israel has as you put it ?created terrorists? and yet you are somehow okay with destroying an entire nation? There?s the loving enlightened view of love thy neighbor.

Israel?s interest is in getting rid of Hizbollah not every single person over there. If they were they would already be deliberately targeting civilians instead of aiming at known militant locations. [quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] An eye for an eye.[/COLOR][/quote]DeathKnight put it best, that sort of thinking just makes things worse.[/COLOR]

[Papa Smurf]

I read Chabichou's latest reply and had to resist the urge to reply with what would be a two-word reply: "F--- you." But I have a feeling that wouldn't be appropriate from a rules standpoint, even though as it relates to the inane gibberish of her reply...it's entirely appropriate, because I don't think her reply deserved much more than "F--- you."

[quote name='Chabichou][color=#004a6f']People are only supporting Israel because they are racist against arabs.[/color][/quote] Yeah, because it has absolutely nothing to do with 40+ years of unchecked aggression coming from the Arabs. Open your eyes.

[quote][color=#004a6f]The idea that anyone can support Israel after how many innocents it has killed, after how many people it has tortured and punished unfairly, shows just how skewed people morality is.[/color][/quote] You haven't the slightest idea of what "morality" is.

[quote][color=#004a6f]You still think we're all terrorists and we all want to kill you. Grow up and start thinking for yourselves, and stop parroting your power hungry leaders.[/color][/quote] No, I think you (you as in the militant Arabs in this case) are a bunch of terrorists because you just don't give a shat about the well-being of anyone, being more than willing to intentionally target train stations, public areas, buses and so on, you exercise absolutely no self-control in anything I've seen/heard/read, you'd rather kill civilians before military personnel, you believe that the world should entirely bend over for you so you can do nothing more than shove another few rockets up its rear, you don't honestly care about peace because if you did care then you wouldn't be blowing **** up for scare tactics. I call you a bunch of terrorists because you rely on straight-up TERROR to get what you want.

So open your Allahdamn eyes.

[quote][color=#004a6f]Why do they deserve peace if they don't give us peace and justice?[/color][/quote] Yeah, because even five years ago, when Israel [b][i]voluntarily[/i][/b] withdrew from Gaza, West Bank, etc., to work toward a [i][b]cease-fire and peace agreement[/b][/i], there was still aggression on the part of who? Oh, yes. The militant Arabs like HAMAS and Hezbollah. Israel is more than willing to give you peace and justice. It's just ideologic puppets like yourself make that impossible.

[quote][color=#004a6f]People want peace in the region, but to the Israelis this means that palestinians leave them alone and let them carry on occupying and oppressing our people.[/color][/quote] Occupying and oppressing? I haven't been here all that long, but are you really that stupid, or are your replies here an act? *checks your recent posts on stuff like this* Oh my God. Is this for real? You've gotten even worse?

[quote][color=#004a6f]*ideologic stupidity snipped*[/color][/quote] Read up on the militaries before making such stupid comments. Israel can singlehandedly obliterate Lebanon and Syria, and if Iran gives them any trouble, they've got 100-200 nuclear warheads stockpiled. But they won't use nukes. Do you know why? [i]Because they're civilized[/i].

Hell, the fact that Lebanon even still exists with the kind of military might that Israel has should tip you off that Israel really is not some oppressive foreign regime. At any moment, it's incredibly easy for them to blanket Lebanon and turn that entire country into dust. And that's not happening. Take a guess why, Chabichou.

[quote][color=#004a6f]They only want Hizbollah out of Lebanon because it was Hizbollah that drove Israel out Lebanon. They want Hizbollah out so they can occupy southern Lebanon again.[/color][/quote] Yes, because finally being rid of some punk-*** emo desert troopers who don't know jack about anything and who have continued to provoke Israel in the past...would never, ever, ever be the goal, would it?

Chabichou...you sicken me. You're even more vindictive than HAMAS and Hezbollah, and those are organizations who kill for the fun of it...who behead people on national television. They're the types of people who blow themselves up to try to prove some idiotic point. They're the people who tie bombs to their chest and detonate in public places.

And after reading your reply here, I've come to the conclusion that HAMAS and Hezbollah are not the villains...YOU are the villain.

Edit: I re-read what I said and think it sounded a bit harsher than I intended, and I normally would apologize, but in all honesty, I don't think you deserve any nice words at all. The Middle East has been wracked with violence for centuries now due to the exact same simple-minded, misguided, short-sighted, ill-advised, unwise, infantile, juvenile, blind parroting kind of tripe you're spewing here.

You want the violence to end? Here's the solution.

Shut your mouth.

[Billy Shears]

I just hope to God the two groups are sane enough to not let this break out in the U.S. The last thing we need is Palestinians and Isralies fighting in our streets.

Anywho, this uninformed idiot rasies his hand among the gunfire to ask:

Chabichou, why has this war been going on for thousands of years? Could you provide some kind of timeline or something? I've asked a Palestinian (sp) classmate, and he just said "Cause the Jews are evil". Didn't really answer my question.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]A total of 230 Lebanese have been killed so far and only 25 Israelis. I'm not saying that Israel is targetting civilians, though it might be. I'm just saying it is knowingly killing civilians. Its target is Hizbollah, but it knows civilians are in the region and bombs anyway without a single care. They give a "warning" for people to evacuate, but they bomb while people are evacuating and end up killing them. "Oh we tried our best" they think. Its because they don't give a damn about innocent Lebanese people.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I highly doubt it, honestly Chabi, if Israel really wanted to flatten or outright kill civilians they would target everything! They wouldn?t bother with warnings, they would just [b]Do It![/b] The people who don?t give a damn are Hizbollah as they know that civilians are in the area and they don?t care if it makes them a target. Seems to me that the one who really doesn?t care about innocent Lebanese people is the militants and not Israel.[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']People are only supporting Israel because they are racist against arabs. The idea that anyone can support Israel after how many innocents it has killed, after how many people it has tortured and punished unfairly, shows just how skewed people morality is. You still think we're all terrorists and we all want to kill you. Grow up and start thinking for yourselves, and stop parroting your power hungry leaders.[/COLOR][/quote]That?s right, if my view doesn?t match yours I?m a racist. :animesigh Do you even realize how stupid that statement is? Instead of trying to understand what?s happening you have fallen back on the old tired tirade of if you aren?t with us you must be against us. What happened to trying to understand one another and working towards peace? Argue all you want, but kidnapping people because you disagree with how Israel is dealing with prisoners is an act of terrorism. It?s a do things my way or else attitude. Others have already mentioned that there are other avenues that can be pursued to resolve the situation.

Yelling that Israel doesn?t care about peace when Hizbollah is committing acts of terrorism is hypocritical. Peace is about working out a compromise not one side decides everything. It?s not a lack of maturity or inability to think for one selves, or even one of following what our leaders are telling us. It?s being apart from the situation and being able to see it without being involved as you are and in all honesty it?s you who needs to stop parroting what others have said and grow up a little.[QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Israel started this whole thing by jailing innocent people without charge and keeping them for months or a year at a time, and by their consistent lack of respect for the basic human rights of palestinians and other arabs they have hurt. Why do they deserve peace if they don't give us peace and justice?

People want peace in the region, but to the Israelis this means that palestinians leave them alone and let them carry on occupying and oppressing our people. They can hurt us, but we're not allowed to hurt them.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I already mentioned it, but there are other solutions besides one of terrorism. Kidnapping soldiers and killing others isn?t exactly peaceful. And for the record, no one said that Arabs and Palestinians don?t deserve peace. And Israel has made efforts towards peace, but idiots like Hizbollah refuse to see that and resort to idiotic acts of terrorism and then cry about how they are being oppressed. [QUOTE=Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f]Anyway, while I hope that no innocent Israelis are hurt, and while I am upset that Hizbollah's actions have brought so much destrution to Lebanon, I hope Hizbollah destroys Israel, gives them a taste of their own medicine. That'll teach Israel once and for all that it is not excused from the the rules of war. That'll teach them to stop collectively punishing our people for the terrorists they themselves have created from their constant oppression of our people. That'll teach them to destroy an entire country for their polical gain. An eye for an eye.

They only want Hizbollah out of Lebanon because it was Hizbollah that drove Israel out Lebanon. They want Hizbollah out so they can occupy southern Lebanon again.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]You hope that no innocent Israelis are hurt and yet you hope Israel is destroyed? What kind of twisted logic is that? Honestly Chabi, stop and think about what you are saying! This kind of mentality is what keeps the pointless fighting from ending! I sincerely hope you were just angry when you wrote this post and not serious. An eye for an eye just perpetrates the endless cycle of violence and solves nothing. And if Hizbollah wasn?t so intent on destroying Israel they wouldn?t have an issue. Others have already said it, I have said it, if Israel really wanted to destroy Lebanon, it would already be ashes. But they haven?t and it?s because whether you believe it or not, they are [b]Civilized.[/b] [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Papa Smurf]
Chabichou...you sicken me. You're even more vindictive than HAMAS and Hezbollah, and those are organizations who kill for the fun of it...who behead people on national television. They're the types of people who blow themselves up to try to prove some idiotic point. They're the people who tie bombs to their chest and detonate in public places.

And after reading your reply here, I've come to the conclusion that HAMAS and Hezbollah are not the villains...YOU are the villain.

Edit: I re-read what I said and think it sounded a bit harsher than I intended, and I normally would apologize, but in all honesty, I don't think you deserve any nice words at all. The Middle East has been wracked with violence for centuries now due to the exact same simple-minded, misguided, short-sighted, ill-advised, unwise, infantile, juvenile, blind parroting kind of tripe you're spewing here.

You want the violence to end? Here's the solution.

Shut your mouth.[/QUOTE]
[size=1]Personal attacks aren't going to do anything here. Calling Chabi more vindictive than Hamas or Hezbollah is just ridiculous. Let's keep some semblance of civility in this thread.

I was under the assumption that Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel with utter disregard to civilian life, and Israel launched a military incursion in response. I don't think that sounds outrageous or over the top here. Yes, Israel has taken civilian casualties, and I'm not trying to claim that they have clean hands here either, but it is nothing compared to Hezbollah's malevolence. Perhaps if Hezbollah didn't hide within the civilian population, fewer civilian casualties would've been taken. You should be angry at Hezbollah, not Israel.

I absolutely despise how blind some people are over there. Even after Israel has given concessions, even after Israel has stated it only wants one soldier back, violence continues to brew. What do you want from Israel, short of completely dissolving? Israel gave back the Gaza Strip and the West Bank settlments, and still the fighting continues. And when Palestinian or Lebanese civilians are killed, guess who is mad, despite being the perpetuators of the violence?

It's a childish battle being waged, and I don't think the Middle East will be in a hurry to mess with Israel after all of this is said and done.[/size]

[Your Mother]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]
I was under the assumption that Hezbollah fired rockets into Israel with utter disregard to civilian life, and Israel launched a military incursion in response. I don't think that sounds outrageous or over the top here. Yes, Israel has taken civilian casualties, and I'm not trying to claim that they have clean hands here either, but it is nothing compared to Hezbollah's malevolence. Perhaps if Hezbollah didn't hide within the civilian population, fewer civilian casualties would've been taken. You should be angry at Hezbollah, not Israel.[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Why? Why should we be angry at Hezbollah, not Israel? Israel has killed hundreds of Lebanese civilians, and caused half the country to flee. Sure, the deaths may be labeled "accidental", but after almost four hundred innocent people have died in Lebanon, some American citizens, some [I]UN workers[/I], suddenly you realize that Israel isn't so innocent anymore.
[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]Another thing. Quit spitting this idealist crap (Retri, I'm not talking to you, but to the general thread) about how inhumane and stupid Hezbollah's rocket attacks are. When a WHOLE F**KING CITY, and not just any city, the CAPITAL, gets torn down over a country's desire to find a handful of militants, I would damn well fire rockets in retaliation.[/SIZE]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]
I absolutely despise how blind some people are over there. Even after Israel has given concessions, even after Israel has stated it only wants one soldier back, violence continues to brew. What do you want from Israel, short of completely dissolving? Israel gave back the Gaza Strip and the West Bank settlments, and still the fighting continues. And when Palestinian or Lebanese civilians are killed, guess who is mad, despite being the perpetuators of the violence?
[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]Two soldiers, actually. But thats irrelevant.

The point is that this is a seriously disappropriate reaction. Are [I]two[/I] soldiers worth waging war? Maybe, maybe not. But I don't see how ripping Beirut to pieces and forcing people to spend decades rebuilding it again is going to solve anything.[/SIZE]


[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]
It's a childish battle being waged, and I don't think the Middle East will be in a hurry to mess with Israel after all of this is said and done.[/size][/QUOTE]

[SIZE=1]The [I]Middle East?[/I] Don't, don't, DON'T point a finger at a region and accuse it of something a few people did. If you'd watch the news, you would see that there are Arab countries disagreeing with Hezbollah's actions. Saudi Arabia. Syria. To name a couple.[/SIZE]