Manga Manga Shallower Than Novels?

[AzureWolf]

[COLOR=maroon]People call them graphic novels to increase the appeal, sound more sophisticated than they are, and put them on par with the reading novels they aren't worthy of being on the same shelf with. But really, how good are they?

Now I'm not bashing manga, as I love it as the next person. However, as I read more and more, I'm beginning to realize that in terms of quality, there's just something about the nature of mangas that keep them from being ever as good as a quality book. The level of immersion is just so poor in manga as compared to that of a book. I guess it might be because of the focus: in a book, you are focused on one word/line at a time, whereas in a manga, you are forced to distribute your focus.

Now in terms of story quality, I would say both novels and graphic novels are amazing. It's just the surprising feeling of limitation I've been experiencing with manga that has made me consider that maybe it's not the best storytelling method around.

Thoughts?[/COLOR]

[GTK]

I guess it depends on the story... certain manga you can go through in a few minutes and not really get anything out of it, and others you can get totally sucked into. Books are the same way.

I guess it could also depend on if you just read the text and skim over the images or if you take in every detail of every panel. Either your focus is on the whole page, or aspects of it as you read. For example - Blame! Almost no text (at the start anyway... the amount of text and dialouge seems to be increasing as the series goes on). Rather than paying attention to text, you have to pay close attention to the images to understand parts of the story. In a way, it's simular to how you focus on the words of a book except you are focusing on pictures instead.


Don't get me wrong, I love to read, but there are very few books I can get into ^^; But I also have the attention span of a flea and if something isn't interesting (novel or manga) there's no way it can keep my attention. I find that manga is generally easier pick up, you know? (though there have been some i haven't really gotten anything out of *cough* Rebirth *cough*) To me, pictures are a bonus in manga. If the story isn't interesting, then I don't look into it. I'm the same way with books. (though occasionally I'll buy manga based on how pretty the art is alone... sometimes this turns out to be bad ^^; and I never get into it. I hardly ever buy a book I don't end up finishing).


Though, in a way, for younger people, I think they'd get more out of a book than manga. As a child, I read way more books than comics (since there wasn't really any manga readily available back then ^^; ). The words used are different, generally, and you can (in a way) learn more by reading a book instead of manga (vocabulary wise)... This is really the only thing I personally think novels have over manga.

I think the stories in both can be just as intersting though. With manga, it's just told a little differently... and, in some cases, in a more tolerable way. I, for one, would never read a novel that as a love story. With manga, some how it's more tolerable because it's told differently (and usually in a more amusing way).

Now I'm rambling and I think I've stopped making sense XD;

[Aaryanna_Mom]

I?ve read very little manga so I can?t really comment on them. But as for books, having lots of words with no picture certainly does not guarantee that it?s very good. There are plenty of books out there that in my opinion are far more shallow that some of the manga?s out there. To give an example, Harlequin Romance Novels. If you?ve read one, you?ve read them all. Boring, predictable and in all honesty a complete waste of money. Now if there are some good ones or you like it, then don?t take it personal as what I just stated is purely my own opinion.

Anyway, I guess I?m saying that even though a manga may not have the words or require to distribute your focus, but I would have to guess that it doesn?t necessarily mean the story is not a quality one. This is where my limitation comes in, but having read a few of the Yu-Gi-Oh manga?s out of curiosity I was surprised at the level of detail and emotions written into what I previously thought was just a mere picture book. Though on the same hand, I tried reading one with magic attacks in it and it was flat and stale, where the animation was much better at telling the story.

So I guess it just depends on the type of story as to what format is better suited to telling it. :)

[Sara]

[color=#b0000b][size=1][QUOTE=AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon]People call them graphic novels to increase the appeal, sound more sophisticated than they are, and [b]put them on par with the reading novels they aren't worthy of being on the same shelf with[/b]. But really, how good are they?

Now I'm not bashing manga, as I love it as the next person.[/color][/quote]Sounds like bashing to me, darlin. =]

[quote name='AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon']However, as I read more and more, I'm beginning to realize that in terms of quality, there's just something about the nature of mangas that keep them from being ever as good as a quality book. The level of immersion is just so poor in manga as compared to that of a book. I guess it might be because of the focus: in a book, you are focused on one word/line at a time, whereas in a manga, you are forced to distribute your focus.[/COLOR][/quote]I don't read a lot of manga: I have a few volumes of One Piece that a friend gave me, but that's about it. So I can't give you any counter-examples from the East. However, in regards to graphic novels in general... You have [i]got[/i] to be kidding me, Azure. The next time you're in Barnes and Noble, spend a little while in the Roleplay/Graphic Novel section. Take a look at [i]Blankets[/i] or [i]Flight[/i], or read a story from any of the [i]Sandman[/i] volumes. There's nothing about the "nature" of a drawn story that keeps it from being on par with a written story. The execution is different (and in my experience, harder to do well), but there's no intrinsic aspect of graphic novels that holds them back from being as good as their word-only counterparts.[/size][/color]

[Solo Tremaine]

[color=#503f86]Graphic novels is a term used in general for comic books published as books- it's not just manga that's coined the term. But you get some graphic novels that are far more 'sophisticated' than real ones. Have you read the original V for Vendetta, by any chance?[/color]

[quote name='Azure][color=#800000']The level of immersion is just so poor in manga as compared to that of a book. I guess it might be because of the focus: in a book, you are focused on one word/line at a time, whereas in a manga, you are forced to distribute your focus.[/color][/quote][color=#503f86]What do you mean by 'immersion', out of interest? I find I tend to rattle through manga volumes pretty quickly, but that doesn't mean to say it's any more shallow than a book, and I still enjoy them as much as reading normal books. You'll spend longer reading books because there's that much more text to a page and whereas manga have the pictures to convey the action, books'll have to use paragraphs of text to achieve the same image. Of course, that naturally means you'll be spending much longer revealing a piece of action that takes a manga one or two frames to put across, and you use your own imagination to build 'hiden bits of that same picture'. But even then, that doesn't make manga soulless for having no written description. While 'BOOM' sound effects and various other examples of onomatopoeia look corny, they're an important part of comic-dom that add to the images.

There are things manga can do that books can't. Somteimes it's easier to identify with emotion when you can really see it, as opposed to just reading about it. Manga can present dramatic angles- a well-drawn landscape tells you exactly what the artist wants you to know about the land the characters are in. It gives you a clear idea of the characters and their relationships.

Manga isn't meant to be a piece of written text, though- it's more like anime, in the sense that you look at pictures rather than read about it. A better comparison to make may be the Fullmetal Alchemist novels and other books :p[/color]

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon]
Now I'm not bashing manga, as I love it as the next person. However, as I read more and more, I'm beginning to realize that in terms of quality, there's just something about the nature of mangas that keep them from being ever as good as a quality book. The level of immersion is just so poor in manga as compared to that of a book. I guess it might be because of the focus: in a book, you are focused on one word/line at a time, whereas in a manga, you are forced to distribute your focus.

Now in terms of story quality, I would say both novels and graphic novels are amazing. It's just the surprising feeling of limitation I've been experiencing with manga that has made me consider that maybe it's not the best storytelling method around.

Thoughts?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray] So when I first started reading your post I knew where you were coming from. Graphic novels have never reached any sort of power a classic novel has (i.e. [i]1984[/i], etc.)*.

But level of immersion? [i]Persepolis[/i] by Marjane Satrapi is an example of a graphic novel that immersed me completely for the while I read it. [i]Epileptic[/i] by David B. is a great one, too. They're both fun to read and serious as well. The words vs. art will create different opinons on this, but graphic novels have just as much or more power to immerse a reader than a novel can.

But storytelling-wise... hm. Graphic novels have limitations on words, since most of the time there's only dialogue. I've seen [i]Persepolis[/i] cross that barrier by having a 1st-person narrative that has a stream-of-consciousness writing, but on the whole it is still a barrier. But on the other hand, novels lack the art yet have full reign on any style of writing the author chooses. It's sort of split down the middle for me on this one.

*Though I'm not saying graphic novels aren't [i]as[/i] powerful. There are plenty of graphic novels that tackle big themes successfully as well, such as [i]Maus[/i] by Art Spiegelman, and any thematic manga out there. [/color]

[Sara]

[QUOTE=Lunox][color=dimgray] So when I first started reading your post I knew where you were coming from. Graphic novels have never reached any sort of power a classic novel has (i.e. [i]1984[/i], etc.)*.

But level of immersion? [i]Persepolis[/i] by Marjane Satrapi is an example of a graphic novel that immersed me completely for the while I read it. [i]Epileptic[/i] by David B. is a great one, too. They're both fun to read and serious as well. The words vs. art will create different opinons on this, but graphic novels have just as much or more power to immerse a reader than a novel can. [/color][/QUOTE][color=#b0000b][size=1]I think Azure is kicking himself right now for bringing up the term "graphic novel" at all, since this post was originally about manga, and we've been refuting him with western works. =] (Props on your choice of examples, though.)

I honestly have the same problem as Azure with a lot of manga--I honestly think I just have trouble following what is going on. If it's a result of the art style, the thinner lines, the disorientation of reading the other way around, I'm not sure. I tend not to get in to manga very much, unless I am already familiar with the characters (in which case, I suppose I'm already hooked).[/size][/color]

[Solo Tremaine]

[color=#503f86]One artist I do have problems keeping up with is Yashuhiro Nightow- the confusion over what was actually happening was what initially put me off Trigun maximum. I haven't had a problem with other manga. But I don't think it's fair to say that the stories, characters or overall structure is less sophisticated than novels. They're different mediums for story communication.[/color]
[color=#503f86][/color]
[color=#503f86]I can understand books requiring more effort to read- manga you can be pretty lazy with, generally. But in terms of what you're meant to get out of it (for the most part, I would have said entertainment- it's probably true to an extent that manga can't contain so many subtexts), I personally don't have a preference.[/color]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]I can certainly see where you are coming from. Especially since I was an avid reader long before I ever read a manga novel. It took getting use to as I had to learn to pick up on certain emotions and things they were experiencing from how they were drawn instead of having it outright told to me in so many words.

Now I do think they are worthy of being on the same shelf, primarily because I?m sure that a lot of effort goes into the actual drawings and because depending on the story, some of them are anything but shallow.

If we were to go one step further, you could turn around and say that compared to a movie some books are shallow. You can describe a storm or a fight scene in a book, but it isn?t quite the same as seeing it in action with all sounds to accompany it. Just as manga uses pictures, even though they are not in motion per se.

Overall, I prefer books over manga because that is what I am use to reading. Manga novels often feel to me like they are way too short. Though for series I really enjoy they are fun, especially if they differ from the anime as that gets me thinking as to why they made the change.

As for it not being the best storytelling method. I think that just depends on the story. Some of the really bizarre and weird concepts I?ve seen in anime are easier to imagine when they are clearly drawn instead of just being described with words. [/COLOR]

[AnimeHeroX]

I don't think so at least you can get through a manga. a friend of mine from school is still tring to get through war and peace. and at least a manga doesn't take a lifetime to get throught. sure the story are as boring or exciting in some novels. but at least your never bored with a manga. the thrill goes away on a novel and after you finish it once most likely. you won't want to read it again. :animesigh

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][quote name='AnimeHeroX']I don't think so at least you can get through a manga. a friend of mine from school is still tring to get through war and peace. and at least a manga doesn't take a lifetime to get throught. sure the story are as boring or exciting in some novels. but at least your never bored with a manga. the thrill goes away on a novel and after you finish it once most likely. you won't want to read it again. :animesigh[/quote]If you are losing the thrill after reading a novel, then you just haven't found the right one yet. ^_~ The really good ones you find yourself reading again and again.

As for Manga being more shallow...On some level I agree. Only because I'm more use to reading books that don't have pictures than ones that do. But even then some of them the story is more alive and vibrant because of the pictures so the lack of words is hardly noticable. One I'm thinking of is Earthian. Even though it was mostly pictures, it still had a fairly involved plot and the artwork was beautiful. I enjoyed it so much that I'm reading it again to pick up on any thing I might have missed the first time through. ^_^[/COLOR]

[AzureWolf]

[COLOR=maroon]Fair enough, and yes, I am kicking myself for using the term graphic novels, lol, and yeah, I'm only referring to manga.

Something Lunox made me wonder, why haven't manga reached the "power" of novels? Is it because they are fairly young, or because they simply can't?[/COLOR]

[Dagger]

[QUOTE=AzureWolf][COLOR=maroon]
Something Lunox made me wonder, why haven't manga reached the "power" of novels? Is it because they are fairly young, or because they simply can't?[/COLOR][/QUOTE]
I'm more inclined to think that it has to do with youth. I mean, novels have a huge head start when you consider how just long they've been around compared to any type of lengthy graphic novel or sequential art or what have you. :animeswea

When it comes to manga, I kind of hate to say it, but market forces tend to work against North American readers getting wildly artsy, innovative or unusual material. [strike]Crap[/strike] stuff like Absolute Boyfriend will always attract more attention than material with some real sophistication to it. To my knowledge, not very many seinen or josei titles have been translated, at least in comparison to the huge glut of shounen and shoujo manga.

Blue is a one-volume yuri-ish story that looks totally different from your average manga. The character designs are very realistic; they're more like something you'd find in a Western piece, and I don't remember seeing any screen tone. The story is muted, a little painful, and purely about real life (yeah, I know there are lots of slice-of-life manga out there, but most of them skew toward drama, comedy or the whole "healing" anime/manga thing).

Naturally, it was translated by some indie publisher I've never heard of--I'm sure none of the established manga companies would've touched it with a ten-foot pole. I'm not saying that I would call it High Art or claim that it measures up to a truly great novel. I could write on and on about its flaws. But it clearly grew out of a very different artistic spirit from that which inspired most of the manga sitting on North American bookshelves.

Shifting gears a tiny bit, I've noticed one thing from my extremely limited experience with Western comics (and those of you who read them more often should feel free to correct and/or scoff at me). They--the good ones, at least--tend to [i]read[/i] more like literature, and American writers seem to be somewhat more open to including substantial narration written in a literary style (which could nevertheless be conversational). Most manga, in contrast, feature simple, minimal narration--if they feature it at all--regardless of whether it's in first, second or third person.

But I don't think this is inherently an advantage. For me, the graphic novels which really begin to delve deeper into what the medium is capable of are the ones that rely on images to lend meaning and context to the words that accompany them. While that may seem self-evident, what I'm talking about is the perfect synthesis of eloquent images and concise language, and it's not easy to find no matter what country the comics you're looking at are from. Narration, no matter how lyrical it may be, often creates a distance between the reader and the artwork on the page, and there are so many other things that can have the same effect.

Manga, and graphic novels in general, [i]can[/i] be totally immersive. Yet when I've experienced this sensation, it's only been in halting bursts--an especially powerful page or two, or a really evocative one-shot. I think you hit the nail on the head in your first post when you suggested that this is difficult to achieve because no matter what else is going on, a graphic novel reader is forced to distribute his or her attention between at least a couple of different things on the page. That said, I don't think it's impossible.

~Dagger~