Discuss Word Count?

[Shy]

[size=1]I'm toying with an idea, and I needed some feedback...

How do you feel about putting an upward limit on the size of RP posts, to encourage activity? What would this magic number be? Do you think it would help posting, or hurt creativity in the end?

-Shy[/size]

[Doublehex]

[QUOTE=Shy][size=1]I'm toying with an idea, and I needed some feedback...

How do you feel about putting an upward limit on the size of RP posts, to encourage activity? What would this magic number be? Do you think it would help posting, or hurt creativity in the end?

-Shy[/size][/QUOTE]

I think it will hurt it because sometimes the best posts are the smaller ones. Sometimes I just want to write a quick two minute scene, and I think that putting enough detail in that 2 minute scene to make it five minutes worth will eventually hurt it in the end.

[Shy]

[quote name='Doublehex']I think it will hurt it because sometimes the best posts are the smaller ones. Sometimes I just want to write a quick two minute scene, and I think that putting enough detail in that 2 minute scene to make it five minutes worth will eventually hurt it in the end.[/quote]
[size=1]No, I'm sorry if my post was confusing.

I mean, putting a limit on how much the players can write in each post. The posts would generally be shorter, but there would be more of them. Also, this might challenge writers to fit as much content into their posts as they can, knowing that they aren't allowed to write more than 400 words (or whatever.)

-Shy[/size]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Well personally I think it's a very interesting idea, I'm known for making long posts in RPGs, something I've become accustomed to and comfortable with, so this would be a challenge for me to trim them down. However as I said over AIM, I think having a mandate for shorter posts would really help get things along as people know have an idea how long their posts need to be and won't spend ages like I do writing larger and more detailed replies. Combined with a posting order and a time limit, I think it could be very useful.[/SIZE]

[Sara]

[color=#b0000b][size=1]This is something I am definitely interested in, possibly in combination with different "classes" of posts. Say, a flashback/informative post (where it's essential that everyone writing be able to follow and understand [i]exactly[/i] what the rest of the story will be building off of) would be worth up to 1000 words, while an "action" post in a sparlike part of the story might be limited to 500 or 300 words.

I wouldn't set the limit much lower than three hundred, because then you run into problems with not being able to actually say what you are hoping to get across--things like 55 Fiction are good writing exercises, but not necessarily something I want to have to tell an extended story with.

1000 words is three typed pages, and in most RPGS, I think that's long enough for any one person to have control of the story.

Something fun might be some kind of point system whereby you must "earn" a longer post by first contributing several shorter ones. I think when a lot of people write longer, rambly posts, it's because you're trying to establish too much at once, or are [i]telling[/i] things rather than [i]showing[/i] them. After several shorter posts, players would hopefully find that they don't even need to use their earned "long" post, because they've already established what they want. You don't need to go on for five pages about your character's dark nature and troubled childhood if you've already portrayed his personality through the way he acts.[/size][/color]

[Dragon Warrior]

[size=1]I hope I understand what you mean, Shy ;) I don't want to sound like a dummie.

I don't know. It'll challenge our abilities, but I personally go to roleplaying to have a good time, not to test my skills really. Sure, my writing quality is put to the test, but I'd hate to be limited by the size. If this is pertaining to the first posts of a sign up thread or something of the like, I'm even less fond of the idea. Sometimes the more detailed RPGs are the better ones. There's currently one in the Inn I saw that had a lot of writing, but only because it had choices of weapons, classes, etc. If anything, that enhances the RPG and gives it more bounds.

To limit the amount you can write kind of would get annoying to me. Some things can't always be said in small terms, but also that what's the point? If people don't do RPGs because of length these days, then RPGs have gone to--for lack of a better word--crap. I feel if people can't deal with the length of an RPG, then don't participate. But because some people are too lazy to grace a larger plotline, don't limit other members who express themselves in larger proportion.[/size]

[Sandy]

An interesting idea, for sure, but I don't think it'll sit well here. There's no point in restricting the length of a post, because there's rarely posts that extend over ten paragraphs. And if the word count was 400... Well, you can't always say everything you want to with so few words. It would also make especially new people double/triple/quadruple post more.

I know the purpose is good, but I don't feel that this is the way we should enforce activity and good quality to our RPGs. There's so many different types of games out there that this just wouldn't work in practice.

*wonders in horror how difficult it would've been to manage OB Survivors if there had been such limitations*

[Boo]

[quote name='Dragon Warrior][size=1']To limit the amount you can write kind of would get annoying to me. Some things can't always be said in small terms, but also that what's the point? If people don't do RPGs because of length these days, then RPGs have gone to--for lack of a better word--crap. I feel if people can't deal with the length of an RPG, then don't participate. But because some people are too lazy to grace a larger plotline, don't limit other members who express themselves in larger proportion.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]Whee, quote.

I never write RP posts, so when I do I make them really long, partly to catch up on everyone. That aside, because of the time zone difference I'd have to read a whole bunch of small posts - instead of the few long ones that I have to read now - when I get back on OtakuBoards, if the idea would work.

The idea could be something RP starters could use for their stories, but having a set rule for it would scare me away rather than attract me to make more posts.[/size]

[PWNED]

A respectable idea Shy.

Well I consider that the idea [U]could[/U] work if given enough time. Small problem though is that it is somewhat difficult to cram detail in a 400 word post and the opening posts are often the longest and probably pass 500 words. It's fine for basic rps that are just revealing a little bit more about a character or action-ey scenes but when it's a massive turning point in an RP then it gets a bit long.

And on the point that Sandy makes;

[QUOTE] Originally Posted by [B]Sandy[/B]
An interesting idea, for sure, but I don't think it'll sit well here. There's no point in restricting the length of a post, because there's rarely posts that extend over ten paragraphs. And if the word count was 400... Well, you can't always say everything you want to with so few words. It would also make especially new people double/triple/quadruple post more.[/QUOTE]

Commendable statement. You raise an excellent point on the new people and that the shorter posts might give the impression that they could chain together posts in a row to get more of a storyline in.

[Sara]

[quote name='Sandy']I know the purpose is good, but I don't feel that this is the way we should enforce activity and good quality to our RPGs. There's so many different types of games out there that this just wouldn't work in practice.[/quote][color=#b0000b][size=1]Not across the board, certainly. But since Shy's RPGs seem to lend themselves to very long posts and very long gaps in posting, I think it's a good thing for him to bring up.

If you're looking for ways to boost participation, something to think about is the length of time taken to create posts and the perceived standard that might cause people to take more time than is necessary. There's a point where the line graph of [i]time taken vs. quality[/i] plateaus, and posts past that amount of time end up hurting the story rather than helping it.

Any such limitation would probably initially take place within a carefully chosen group of players, and I don't think that double or triple posting would be a problem among those who understand why the limit is in place.[/size][/color]

[Retribution]

[size=1]My apologies if I restate other's points... I only skimmed.

I must say, an interesting idea, but I personally despise it. Making this a rule would frustrate me more than anything -- one of the things I esteem Arena for is its creative flexibility, which would include post format and length.

If you're only allowed something like 500 words, one of three things will happen. 1) You will have utilitarian posts that scrap all detail to further the plot, 2) you will have detailed and descriptive posts that move the story no where, or 3) you will have some mix of both which proves to be ineffective due to the limited length. I could see how something like this might be beneficial to a fight scene, in that it would force the two to think harder about their moves, but it might actually hurt things. You might just have people intent on making a certain move, and so they have zero detail and just a string of actions.

Furthermore, longer posts can be very beneficial in an RPG. For something like Kill Adam, you could have both a flashback and action in the same post, where the story is told from one perspective. Such posts both enrich the universe and move things along, with the latter being superfluous in many cases. With a limit of 500 words, you limit the complexity of the universe being played in as well as cripple creative control of the RPer.

I think it was a good idea to toy around with, but I would recommend it go back to the drawing board.[/size]

[Aberinkula]

Maybe 600 word limit. If peopple have a great idea but it has more than 400 words they could be disapointed. But all in all It sounds like a good idea to me. Who wants to take their time to read 15 paragraphs of 100 words. It's just to much. Perhaps the system could allow a different type of post system for the rp. Like it has a word countdown or something like that.

[Boo]

[quote name='Split Keyblader']Who wants to take their time to read 15 paragraphs of 100 words. It's just to much.[/quote]
[size=1]... No it's not. Have you ever tried reading a book?[/size]

[Shy]

[size=1]Sara said a lot of what I was meant to, so I'll try not to retread over her thoughts.

No, the word limit would not be some sort of rule set across the boards, but it is something that I may consider enforcing in future RPGs. Gavin and I have discussed the high amount of pressure people feel when posting in certain 'high profile' RPGs, and we feel this is partially to blame for long gaps in, and the eventual death of, said RPGs. I know that with a word limit I personally would feel less pressure to turn in a lengthy piece of literature with every post, and in turn I would be much more active as a result.

That isn't to say the quality of my posts would neccessarily suffer, but the stress of posting something 'remarkable' has hurt me creatively at times. If anything, a word limit to encourage more regular, casual posts would help.

The longest single post I have ever done for an RPG was about 3,000 words, and it took me nearly three weeks to complete. Other than the fact that I chose not to, there's no reason I couldn't have split it up into several smaller posts. An RPG should always be a work in progress, so maybe major plot twists and character developments should take place at a slower, more natural pace and over multiple posts. This gives other players a chance to contribute, piece by piece until the story itself is a [i]real[/i] collaboration (rather than just a single player's vision.)

It's often the case where a single writer dominates the story with a lengthy piece of writing, which pressures other writers into making every submission into a 10-page epic. I guess what I'm saying is that right now I'd rather be participating in a constantly active RPG with 100 small posts than one whose story stretches out over 10 infinitely long ones.

This isn't to say smaller posts have any less quality than large ones. We all know that the writers are the ones who dictate the quality of an RPG, not a posting order or word count.

-Shy[/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Sara][color=#b0000b][size=1]1000 words is three typed pages, and in most RPGs, I think that's long enough for any one person to have control of the story.[/size'][/color][/quote]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']If you're only allowed something like 500 words, one of three things will happen. 1) You will have utilitarian posts that scrap all detail to further the plot, 2) you will have detailed and descriptive posts that move the story no where, or 3) you will have some mix of both which proves to be ineffective due to the limited length. I could see how something like this might be beneficial to a fight scene, in that it would force the two to think harder about their moves, but it might actually hurt things. You might just have people intent on making a certain move, and so they have zero detail and just a string of actions.[/size][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Alex, if 1,000 words is roughly 3 pages, then 500 words is a completely acceptable upper limit. I don't know about you, but the vast majority of my RPG submissions never go beyond a page and a half in Microsoft Word. So I don't know where you get off saying that limiting replies to 500 words would create havok in the Arena, because most replies are under 500 words anyway from what I can see. Besides, Josh isn't talking about implementing this system across the entire Arena, this is simply an idea we were discussing for a possible future RPG in order to encourage people to be able to post more often.[/SIZE]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Furthermore, longer posts can be very beneficial in an RPG. For something like Kill Adam, you could have both a flashback and action in the same post, where the story is told from one perspective. Such posts both enrich the universe and move things along, with the latter being superfluous in many cases. With a limit of 500 words, you limit the complexity of the universe being played in as well as cripple creative control of the RPer.[/size][/quote]

[SIZE=1]True, longer posts under certain circumstances can be beneficial, but raising the case of Kill Adam as an example is a bit unfair. Kill Adam featured some of the very, very best role-players in the Arena, people who were around and were willing to wait a long time to finish Kill Adam Volume One. How long did it take from start to finish ? Seven months over only three pages. I don't think it's even remotely realistic to use KA as an example of how longer posts can be beneficial to most RPGs in the Arena.

As for 1,000 + word posts enriching stories, again this is true, but what you're not saying it that it also creates a strain on the writers to be able to submit that kind of addition in timely fashions in order to keep the fluidity of an RPG. What Josh is suggesting by adding an upper word limit is that people can add a reply and then work off what the next person submits, the fluidity is kept and people don't spend a week working on one posts. For those of us in multiple, often four or five RPGs at the one time, this is also a blessing because 5,000 words every two or three days is very difficult to do.[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[size=1]Rofflehouse, I didn't know you knew my name. Haha. Anyway.
[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']Alex, if 1,000 words is roughly 3 pages, then 500 words is a completely acceptable upper limit. I don't know about you, but the vast majority of my RPG submissions never go beyond a page and a half in Microsoft Word. So I don't know where you get off saying that limiting replies to 500 words would create havok in the Arena, because most replies are under 500 words anyway from what I can see. Besides, Josh isn't talking about implementing this system across the entire Arena, this is simply an idea we were discussing for a possible future RPG in order to encourage people to be able to post more often.[/SIZE][/quote]
If your [and most people's for that matter] RPG submissions never go beyond a page and a half in Microsoft Word, then what's the point of creating this 500 word limit. It seems like a word-cap for a word-cap's sake if people are already doing it and its a select few who are exceeding such a limit. What's the point of making a law if people are already doing it on their own (for the most part)?

If this idea is for only one RPG, I really have no problem with it. However, if this idea were to be instituted throughout the Arena, I wouldn't stand for it. I also don't really see the point if this is to encourage activity when people already fall within the rule's criteria... it seems the level of activity wouldn't change if the post length has no change to make.

[QUOTE][SIZE=1]True, longer posts under certain circumstances can be beneficial, but raising the case of Kill Adam as an example is a bit unfair. Kill Adam featured some of the very, very best role-players in the Arena, people who were around and were willing to wait a long time to finish Kill Adam Volume One. How long did it take from start to finish ? Seven months over only three pages. I don't think it's even remotely realistic to use KA as an example of how longer posts can be beneficial to most RPGs in the Arena.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Alright, fine, but my point still holds true. Occasional long posts are still beneficial. They both work to flesh out a universe further or exist to push the action along if there is a lull in activity. In addition, they can lay out the framework for a chain of shorter posts to do their magic.

[QUOTE][SIZE=1]As for 1,000 + word posts enriching stories, again this is true, but what you're not saying it that it also creates a strain on the writers to be able to submit that kind of addition in timely fashions in order to keep the fluidity of an RPG. What Josh is suggesting by adding an upper word limit is that people can add a reply and then work off what the next person submits, the fluidity is kept and people don't spend a week working on one posts. For those of us in multiple, often four or five RPGs at the one time, this is also a blessing because 5,000 words every two or three days is very difficult to do.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]
I never said anything about a 1,000+ word post, but perhaps a 700 word post would be a good example. Also, any sane writer wouldn't expect another 1,000+ word post coming all the other RPers, and I hope the RPers would understand that they don't need to go that distance either. The fact that one person gives a long post does not necessarily mean that everyone should follow their lead. Like I said, that one long post could be the opening to a chapter, from which everyone springboards into the normal posts.

So at the end of the day, if it's only being applied to one RPG, fine. It's your RP... and I don't see why you'd need to ask the question if it's your own. I suppose to get feedback. Just please don't make it a rule. :p

[B]Interesting note:[/B] This post, excluding this note, is 685 words.[/size]

[Shy]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1][B]Interesting note:[/B'] This post, excluding this note, is 685 words.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]Your post is actually a lot smaller when you take out all of the times you quoted others, love.

Anyway, if you had read my last post (it's the one you glossed over to respond to Gavin's points) you would see that I never intended to institute this as a rule, or even propose such a thing. I'm merely tossing an idea into the Underground, and seeing what the various reactions are. It would make for an interesting writing exercise,and force some of the more long-winded writers to do something short, coherent and to the point for once.

To be honest, I would be just as interested in doing an entire RPG with 50 or 1,000 word posts being the requirement... I simply chose the 400-600 range because it seemed to be the average. This is all an attempt to keep up momentum with an RPG to prevent it from dying rather than artificially boosting the number of posts in order to declare it as being a success.

-Shy

[b]Edit:[/b] Not including this note, or the quotation. 169 words.[/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Shy][size=1']Your post is actually a lot smaller when you take out all of the times you quoted others, love.[/size][/quote][size=1]I'm well aware of that. I just wanted to give a size-representation of how short/long ~700 words was.

...But do you [i]really[/i] love me anymore? It's been forever since you called.

[QUOTE][size=1]Anyway, if you had read my last post (it's the one you glossed over to respond to Gavin's points) you would see that I never intended to institute this as a rule, or even propose such a thing. I'm merely tossing an idea into the Underground, and seeing what the various reactions are. It would make for an interesting writing exercise,and force some of the more long-winded writers to do something short, coherent and to the point for once.[/size][/QUOTE]I did catch the part about not making it a rule when I glossed over your post. I'm just one of those headstrong types who keeps arguing when there's nothing left to argue about.[/size]

[DeadSeraphim]

[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]It's funny that most of the people who are objecting are people who are serially in RPs that die prematurely. [i]Is there a correlation?[/i]

I (very) rarely RP, and my last two RPs were both Shy's. In Legionnaire's I became disinterested and left because of the large gaps between posts in the other teams (if I recall, when I headed Gold Team we were comparitively brisk), with Vignette, though it encouraged large posts it led to gaps (well, one massive gap) between posts that killed if off. It seems any high profile RP is doomed to failure because of the expectation for long, quality posts.

Of course, it shouldn't matter though. If people were as amazing at RPs as they claim, they should be able to say what they want in 400, or 500 words easily. Maybe all the instant negative feedback is less real opposition and more insecurity. Just a thought.

Anyway, I totally avoided the point for like 154 words there. I would support something like this in an RP - if the story moved along faster as a result, I'd keep interest, and it would be better all round.[/font][/color][/size]

[Boo]

[size=1]There is no rule to tell people to make huge posts, anyway. If RPs die than I may sure as hell hope that it's not because people were to lazy to read the posts before them. That'd be just sad. I think it's just because they didn't feel like writing a post at all.

If I were restricted to making a post with less than 500 words, I wouldn't post sooner than when I had no limit at all. Just my opinion, though.

~ the above was 387 characters including spaces, roflz0rps.[/size]

[James]

[font=arial]I think people all too often have the feeling that long posts as a requirement in The Arena. That just isn't the case - there's no rule stating it, anyway. It's about quality and not quantity, although I know that this concept does not always come across.

Since it came up in the discussion I think I should make one point: the posts in Kill Adam were all quite long, but this was never something I insisted upon. In fact, as the RPG creator, I never at all had requirements about length. In Volume 2 some of the sign-ups were so extraordinarily long that I honestly didn't want to spend hours reading through them - it shouldn't be a chore, it should be entertaining.

So, I think people felt pressure to write long posts perhaps...but that feeling is very misplaced. If there was any pressure, it was pressure to produce something of good quality and something that represented characters accurately...this could easily have been achieved with shorter posts.

At the end of the day, people chose to write longer posts. That wasn't a requirement. Would there have been a difference if we'd limited the amount of words that people could use? Perhaps. I don't know. If anything I think people would have felt restricted...but I'm sure it does depend on the type of RPG.

So, while I wouldn't support this as any kind of official rule...I think it would be fine to experiment with in individual RPGs. At the very least, it can be tried and you can see how it goes. I'm all for experimentation and I'm more than happy for people to try this type of thing. You never know, it may very well have the desired effect.[/font]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]I think it would certainly be an interesting idea to try in an individual RPG. To be honest, for those of us who have not been part of very many RPG?s the way other members who have been participating here for much longer post is rather intimidating. Only in the sense that it?s obvious that they are quite skilled at it and even though the posts are long, they are well written. So you almost feel like you have to somehow match that even though you really can?t yet (only in that I feel it takes time to learn to write for an RPG) and it just makes the whole thing seem more stressful than fun.

Having an upper limit would help take out the feeling that you have to write a long quality post when as others already mentioned quality isn?t necessarily about length. And for those who do write longer posts, it could be seen as a challenge to shorten your posts or to re-word them a bit to fit over two different instances of posting. Either way, I?d be interested to see it put in action (in a few individual RPG's that is) just to see how it worked out. [/COLOR]

[Dragon Warrior]

[size=1]I say just make it yet another choice like the Chapter System. If people want a word limit in their RPGs, so be it. But like I said before, you shouldn't pressure everyone into changing their style.[/size]

[Sara]

[quote name='Dragon Warrior][size=1']I say just make it yet another choice like the Chapter System. If people want a word limit in their RPGs, so be it. But like I said before, you shouldn't pressure everyone into changing their style.[/size][/quote][color=#b0000b][size=1]No one is even suggesting that this be implemented across the Arena. It was brought up as a possible option?yes, like the chapter system?as a way of increasing activity.

[quote=Retri]If your [and most people's for that matter] RPG submissions never go beyond a page and a half in Microsoft Word, then what's the point of creating this 500 word limit. It seems like a word-cap for a word-cap's sake if people are already doing it and its a select few who are exceeding such a limit.

I also don't really see the point if this is to encourage activity when people already fall within the rule's criteria... it seems the level of activity wouldn't change if the post length has no change to make.[/quote]The point is that in certain situations, people feel obligated to write extremely long posts, to the point where it hurts the RPG rather than helping it. Several of Shy's RPGs have fallen victim to this?possibly due to the fact they were created by him, but who knows? This would hopefully influence otherwise slow-moving RPGS to pick up the pace, and keep people interested (or even aware that the story is still going on).[/color][/size]

[Sandy]

If people have problems with writing only long posts, the answer is that they start writing [I]shorter[/I] posts. Simple as that, no new rules or technical gimmicks to restrict the word count needed.

I've noticed the problem of overly long posts in the "major quality RPGs" too, but I think that the limitations coming from the chapters, posting orders, and specific intervals of posts are to blame here, not so much the thinking that long equals quality.

We "oldies" should take example from the newer members, who have no problem playing an RPG that extends over twenty pages. Sure, the grammar might not be as accurate or the story as intriguing, but still most of the games are comprehensible and the players have fun. That's one sort of "high quality" in my opinion.