Let's talk about sex (Mature please)

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='Sandy]Masturbation doesn't cause you to lose your virginity [I]in my opinion[/I'], but to share a sexual experience with another person does.[/quote]
What about mutual masturbation?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[sakurasuka]

[QUOTE=DeadSeraphim][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial]
What about mutual masturbation?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

[size=1]That would be sexual interaction, seeing as it is a sexual act performed in the presence of another person. So, in my opinion, it's sex. Basically.

I agree with Sandy in that heterosexual sex isn't the only kind of sex.

If you consider gay and lesbian sex, then the idea of what entails 'intercourse' broadens somewhat.

[/size]

[Adahn]

[font=Verdana][size=2]I'm in a genetics lab this term, and we're working with fruit flies. When female fruit flies emerge in their adult form, they are sexually mature. It takes males 8 hours to become sexually mature. If we want to breed those female fruit flies with another type of fruit fly with a certain phenotype, we must isolate virgin females. The reason for this is that the first time a female fruit fly has mates, it stores the sperm from the first mating and uses it in all of the eggs it lays. So, what you do is you kill all the emerged adult fruit flies in a tube, and come back within 8 hours and collect the females, because it's impossible for them to have mated with the immature males within that time period. Now, while you're away, those fruit flies can do some crazy stuff, rubbing their legs all over each other and licking each other sensually, but whatever happens, they're still virgins.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]However many sexually enjoyable things you've done with a person, unless you've had sex, as it's always been defined, you're a virgin.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]You may consider yourself very sexually experienced, but losing virginity is a simple, definable experience. Any person who has not had this experience can truthfully claim to be a virgin. They can say, "I've done a lot of things, but I've never had sex."[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]Homosexuals may have their own understanding of virginity, and this is a good, reasonable thing. How would it sound if your partner, with whom you've shared many a personal experience, called him/herself a virgin? It would undermine the relationship, and it would undermine what homosexuality stands for.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]I do not ask that you stop calling yourself a virgin, that would be an unreasonable thing to do, but try to keep an open mind, and allow heterosexuals to keep their definition. People at this age are confused enough about sex without us changing its definition on them :)[/size][/font]

[Minako]

I didn't read through all [b]6[/b] pages of this thread, but i read the first few replies.

As for me, (like many others here) I'll be waiting until i'm married to have sex. As a christian, it's a sacred thing, that should be saved until marriage. And talk about the ultimate wedding gift!

I first heard about sex in Jean M. Auel's [I]Earth's Children[/I] series of books. It was called "pleasures" and i was only 12 at the time. I then accidentally came across porn on the internet (which happens to almost everyone) and i was like, "What goes Where??" But I just kind of accepted it. Though throughout my Lutheran schooling, they kept saying, "Abstinence is the Only way!" And I plan on doing that...which may be difficult considering i go to the #4 party college in the country (was #1 for many many years) >.<;

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=DeadSeraphim][COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial]
What about mutual masturbation?[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR][/QUOTE]

It all depends in my mind whether the two who are masturbating are doing it only by themselves, or to each other. The latter one is definitely a sexual act, while the first one is not so self-explanatory to me.

As for [B]Adahn[/B], you still seem to keep the idea that sex=intercourse, and that's your opinion which you are entitled to, but it's not the [I]official[/I] definition, if there even is one. I don't claim that my definition is the right one either, but calling someone a virgin just because he hasn't entered his penis into a vagina is ludicrous, and shows that you have very little experience in the different forms of sex.

The main thing bothering the bedroom life of many married couples, or so several magazines and studies seem to imply, is that their sex is simply boring. The man mounts the woman, gives a few shoves, comes and that's it. There is so much more a couple can do to each other intimately, but saying that only the act described in the previous sentence is actual sex, is just immature.

I don't claim to be the all-knowing Dr. Sex or anything (although I kind of feel like it now ;P ), but I [I]know[/I] what is sex, both in theory and in practice. It varies culturally, of course, but using pure common sense, it feels downright silly to rule out everything except penetration out of the definition.

[B]PS.[/B] And I'm not trying to [I]change[/I] the definition of sex, it's just one of those things which can be perceived in various different ways.

Plus, I dare to say that my definition of sex is much safer to these "confused teenagers" than yours, as in you can have sex without the pressure of going as far as intercourse. [B]You can't get pregnant by using your hands or mouth, remember that![/B] (Although you might want to avoid catching herpes...)

[Adahn]

[font=Verdana][size=2]Nothing I've said says anything about how much experience I've had with sex.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]Everything you've said has everything to do with what I consider 'lovemaking'. Sex is sex. Lovemaking is lovemaking. Two individuals of any sex can engage in lovemaking without having sex.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]Calling someone a virgin because they have not had sexual intercourse is [i]ludicrous?[/i][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]I can't think of anything else to say, after that. If you can honestly believe in the above statement, then there's really no need for me to try to convince you otherwise.[/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2][/size][/font]
[font=Verdana][size=2]You're just weird.[/size][/font]

[Sandy]

No, I'm just [I]gay[/I]. ;D And I'm most definitely [I]not[/I] a virgin. Virgins don't have the experience I have, [I]seriously[/I].

I can only assume that you live in a little heterosexual bubble where sex is hardcore banging, but people really are different out there.

Separating sex and lovemaking as different things is going to pure semantics. It's basically the same type of action, the other word is just more emotionally charged.

But I grow tired of debating over this thing, when obviously nothing I can say will make you consider your definition. You've learned that sky is blue, so I really can't make you believe it can sometimes be pink.

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=Sandy]And I'm most definitely [I]not[/I] a virgin. Virgins don't have the experience I have, [I]seriously[/I].

[/QUOTE]

A rich man doesn't have to tell you he's rich, mate.

I wasn't even planning on posting in this but Sandy's posts caught my eye and they sort of hit a 'touch button'.

I have been in another sexual relationship for the past year, and everyone is entitled to their opinion. However, I had always maintained I was a virgin until the 'ultimate' form of 'love expression', which is, sexual intercourse.

Just because you're gay, it doesn't change the rules for heterosexuals. It's an entirely different ball game.

I mean, a sexual experience could be like playing 'footsie' and I don't know about you guys but I'd feel a bit embarrassed if I lost my virginity via a bit of physical flirting.

At the end of the day, I've always questioned 'virginity'. I mean, what is it? Is the loss of virginity where a girl loses her hymen? But then, what about us guys? Do they not have virginity full stop? The hymen can be broken via things such as exercise, sports, horse riding, etc. And then what about homosexual relationships?

I feel virginity can be lost and maintained however a person feels fit. I'm sure many people would refuse to state they lost their virginity to a rapist. I feel it reaches beyond unto a level where two people share a sexual intercourse experience that is mutual.

----

[Edit:] Fair play to all of ya'.

[Adahn]

[QUOTE=Sandy]No, I'm just [i]gay[/i]. ;D And I'm most definitely [i]not[/i] a virgin. Virgins don't have the experience I have, [i]seriously[/i].

I can only assume that you live in a little heterosexual bubble where sex is hardcore banging, but people really are different out there.

Separating sex and lovemaking as different things is going to pure semantics. It's basically the same type of action, the other word is just more emotionally charged.

But I grow tired of debating over this thing, when obviously nothing I can say will make you consider your definition. You've learned that sky is blue, so I really can't make you believe it can sometimes be pink.[/QUOTE]
[size=2]There's so little here, so I don't think I will stop. Besides, if you really were tired of debating, you wouldn't have written that second part there.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]I will ask you a simple question, because it is possible you have led me to believe something untrue through witholding information. Have you ever had sexual intercourse? If yes, then you are not a virgin. If you have not, then you are a virgin. I've searched and searched, and despite your italicized emphasizations, I just cannot find any reliable definition that is contrary to the one I take to be true.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]On the next part, I'm going to have to give you a little bit of a reality check. I live in a BIG heterosexual bubble, while you live in a comparably infinitessimal homosexual bubble. I don't believe I said anything that had anything to do with 'hardcore banging'. It must just have been something you added to goad me into a reply, while expressing a wish to stop debating, so you can catch me with the whole, "I wanted to stop, but he just kept going!" thing.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Let's examine the hypothetical experienced gay man gone straight. This person has never had sex with a woman, but is very, [i]very[/i] experienced with men. When he decides to change sides, what can he tell a woman? He can say he was gay, and he did a lot of things, but he's never had a woman. Most women empathize with gay men, so he might not have much trouble finding a woman. Now, I'm just speculating here, but I think sexual intercourse and gay sex would be quite a bit different. The gay man, with all his experience, just wouldn't know how to handle a woman. It's an experience that can only be had between a man and a woman. The physical responses and desires of men and women are quite different, and that gay man may find himself as clumsy and inexperienced as if he'd never had sex with anyone. They both would know that he truly was a virgin.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]If you want to say you've had sex, fine, just make sure you tell people it's gay sex, or they may not know exactly what experience you have had. If you want to not be a virgin, that's fine too, but you'll have to tell people you're not a virgin in the homosexual sense. Some of the rituals and physical actions may be the same, but in a very real sense, sexual intercourse and gay sex are distinctly different.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Since sexual intercourse, in all species in which it occurs, is infinitely more common than homosexual intercourse, it is homosexual intercourse which must be qualified. To the majority goes the term sex. The minority must abide qualification.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Now, to make it seem like I'm not a huge gay-person hating man, I'll make a comparison. As a white male, I generally may refer to myself as a man, without qualification. Black men, however, are more often qualified, because they are a minority.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Should we eliminate the majority/minority bias by, as a whole, accepting homosexual relations as equal to and indistinguishable from heterosexual relations? Whatever you believe, Sandy, you know this is not the case today. Would you have it be this way?[/size]

[Sandy]

I know it's a lame excuse to avoid further debate over this very confusing issue, but I can only deduce that the word "sex" must mean a different thing in English language than it does in Finnish. You use it to describe just the intercourse, we use it to describe everything else of that nature as well. Let's just leave it at that, okay? ;D

I have to say though (and I'm not debating over this, just making a remark), that I find your assumption that I would be somehow clumsier with women than your average straight guy just because I haven't had any type of sex with one. I, however, do know where the "critical parts" are located in a woman, and the same can't really be said about some straight guys. ;P

[Adahn]

[quote name='Sandy']I know it's a lame excuse to avoid further debate over this very confusing issue, but I can only deduce that the word "sex" must mean a different thing in English language than it does in Finnish. You use it to describe just the intercourse, we use it to describe everything else of that nature as well. Let's just leave it at that, okay? ;D[/quote]
[size=2]Done deal.[/size]

[QUOTE=Sandy]
I have to say though (and I'm not debating over this, just making a remark), that I find your assumption that I would be somehow clumsier with women than your average straight guy just because I haven't had any type of sex with one. I, however, do know where the "critical parts" are located in a woman, and the same can't really be said about some straight guys. ;P[/QUOTE]
[size=2]I expect you find my assumption...something like ridiculous or unfair. If you haven't caught this already, you may want to edit your post so I can understand exactly what you're trying to say. You may not be clumsy, but you may find yourself surprised. As a man who has been with a woman, I know my own responses as well as a woman's, and they are, quite simply, different. The only way not to be thrown off balance would for YOU to have the conception that sex is just 'hardcore banging'. Practice makes perfect, but just because you're awesome at the batting cages doesn't mean you'll hit every (good) pitch thrown in a baseball game.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]As a respectable heterosexual individual, I don't like entertaining homosexuality in myself, but I will say that I have no misconceptions about being able to hold my own in a homosexual experience.[/size]

[Sandy]

[quote name='Adahn][size=2']The only way not to be thrown off balance would for YOU to have the conception that sex is just 'hardcore banging'. [/size][/quote]

Pfft, please don't cling onto everything word I say, I was just using that term to color up my text a bit. ;D Why do all people take me so literally?! *martyr sigh*

Okay, too tired for this now...

[sikaurai]

Okay, I'm reading the fight between you two, and I've just realized that I've had my hand over my mouth for the last two minutes. I'm a straight female, with quite a long, sad, regrettable history. I know quite a few homosexuals, and almost as many bisexuals. I'm opening myself up for arguments, here, but I think sex--scientifically speaking--is insert tab a into slot b (imagine your own slot here, I guess), and it involves some kind of intimate act between two (or more) people in the privacy (or not) of the bedroom, and someone inevitably comes to orgasm (but not always). . . and oh, god, now I'm just confused. I'll just have to come back and see everything resolves itself. In the meantime, I'm gonna go call my lesbian friend and see how she defines sex and maybe we'll go back and check wikipedia, too, 'cuz even after two kids, I still don't know what the definition of "sex" is. . . maybe it's just something fun to do on a rainy day, 'cuz I'm outta chocolate.

[Zidargh]

This argument's just turning into a 'I DO know how to please ... actually. So there' - type of debate.

Mainly from Sandy's part I'm afraid. Either way, I still feel the word 'sex' is very different when used with the word 'intercourse'.

As said previously, virginity is generally caused via the penetration of a sexual organ into another sexual organ. Typically, the penis and the vagina. End of.

Jeez.

[center][img]http://img.timeinc.net/time/magazine/archive/covers/2000/1101001030_400.jpg[/img][/center]

[James]

[font=arial]Without re-opening a can of worms, there's a reason why "oral sex" has the word "sex" in it. It is a [i]type[/i] of sex.

So, I would say that there are many types of sex...and if you have a type of sex you're no longer a virgin. That's the way I look at it, anyway.

This is especially true for a male, where there's no hymen to break and so on...it's really not quite so black and white, I'd say. But that's just my view - I understand that other people interpret this aspect differently.[/font]

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=James][font=arial]
This is especially true for a male, where there's no hymen to break and so on...it's really not quite so black and white, I'd say. But that's just my view - I understand that other people interpret this aspect differently.[/font][/QUOTE]


I also believe that religion has a good amount of influence on the subject of virginity, especially with 'The Virgin Mary' and what-not.

Virginity was and probably is still regarded as a sacred aspect of life, especially in the church.

Either way though, as you said, it is not so black and white - especially with the world modernising every day. Also, sex is absolutely everywhere, so it's one of those controversial issues that is down to personal opinion.

[Adahn]

[size=2]I don't have the American Christian perspective on sex, but I think it's what many people in my culture cling to. Many of them stress 'no sex before marriage', and with marriages coming later and later in our lives, people find themselves very sexually frustrated. Virginity MUST be intact for them, in all things that don't involve penile insertion into the vagina. If they, in their hearts, believed oral sex, handjobs, or something else to be 'sex' in the sense that it causes them to lose their virginity, then they would feel a great sense of shame, and would feel that they had betrayed God.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Perhaps this worldview which surrounds me has influenced my understanding of sex and virginity.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]The only sexual contact I ever had before actual sex was touching a girl's boobs. If that, without any involvement of genitalia, can be considered sex, then why not holding hands or kissing? I'd like to think I was a virgin when I was with my girlfriend for the first time, and I believe this is the case.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Since you all seem to have a broad definition of sex, where do you draw the line? I don't mean to be antagonistic, I am just curious. Perhaps you could tell us some activities that don't constitute sex and the loss of virginity? I've made my position quite firmly, already, but since I am by no reasonable definition a virgin, I am open to new definitions.[/size]

[Sandy]

[QUOTE=James][font=arial]Without re-opening a can of worms, there's a reason why "oral sex" has the word "sex" in it. It is a [i]type[/i] of sex.

So, I would say that there are many types of sex...and if you have a type of sex you're no longer a virgin. That's the way I look at it, anyway.

This is especially true for a male, where there's no hymen to break and so on...it's really not quite so black and white, I'd say. But that's just my view - I understand that other people interpret this aspect differently.[/font][/QUOTE]

I just hate you for this, [B]Jamesy[/B]; you always find the words to make your point short and accurate!

In this case, all of my ten posts filled with inane blabbering of what I know and what I don't about sex aimed to the very same point you made with a few simple sentences.

I [I]hate[/I] you. ;P

PS. [B]Zidargh[/B], you're right: I should've given reasons to my claims more. To tell you the truth, the very thought of confronting a vagina frightens the heck out of me, so while I [I]do[/I] know where the clitoris and all the other female anatomy is located, I might be to grossed out to actually do anything with that knowledge. XP