Art Brushes

[Katana]

[size=1][color=royalblue]There seems to be a huge, underground debate over the use of pre-made brushes. Now this is the place to let out what you think [strike]instead of spamming the other threads[/strike] and let you decide.

For those of you who don't know, whenever a person says "pre-made" brushes, they usually mean brushes that somebody has made for others to download and use in their works. These people don't mind the brushes being used on casual pieces, such as banners here at the OB, but if the brushes are used in a commercial piece, they do ask for compensation.
I have talked to a few people who run brush and media resource sites, and they are always very friendly (and rather lenient). The main reason I contact them is to ask whether or not they feel comfortable with me using their brushes on an entry for a contest. In one instance, a webmistress responded, "I understand a prize is involved, but you're not making money off of it, so I don't mind at all."
At any site for pre-made brushes, there is always a sort of disclaimer and terms of use page before you get to the actual brushes. These say that the brushes can be used on anything from school projects to website graphics (the latter of which, they always ask for a link back), but they do NOT want you using them on things that will get you money. And if you're confused on something, you can always e-mail them, like I have done on several occasions.

With the major explanation out of the way, it's time to get into the heart of this discussion.

What are your views on using pre-made brushes? Do you find that the person is disgraceful for using them, or do you love the brushes yourself? [i]Do you even care?[/i]

You probably realize this by now - I use pre-made brushes, and I absolutely [i]love[/i] them. I'm the type of person who can make pretty graphics (I hope), but I have a really hard time sitting down and thinking of brushes.
When I first found out about pre-made brushes, I was - let's face it - ecstatic. The things up for download were [i]way[/i] better than anything Adobe placed at my pre-disposal.
I have only two brush/media resource sites that I visit, which are [url=http://www.themagic-box.net/indexx.php]The Magic Box[/url] and [url=http://hybrid-genesis.net/indexxx.html]Hybrid-Genesis[/url]. I prefer TMB out of the two, since the webmistress seems to be friendlier...anyways...

Few people really knew that I used pre-made brushes before now. So what does that mean to you? Do you now look at my works in disgust, or has your perspective not changed at all?

To me, a pre-made brush is just another tool for one to use. The people who make these brushes put a lot of time and effort into them, so when you use them, you're not only showing off your work, you're showing off theirs as well.
How can you say that using a pre-made brush makes a piece less creative? It takes talent to make a decent graphic in the first place. And it takes more talent to make things look [i]right[/i] - it's what separates n00bs from graphic artists.

If you haven't figured it out yet, my view on this is that using a pre-made brush made by somebody else doesn't demote your creativity at all. When you look at the graphic, you look at the piece as a [i]whole[/i], not as its separate elements. You can't assess the value of something by the value of its elements, because the end product can be greater or lesser than what you think.

Instead, you need to view a piece as a whole, appreciate how everything flows together, and admire if that person has talent - Not by what brushes they use, but rather by the end product they create.

...

Let the war begin. >_O[/color][/size]

[Boo]

[size=1]Whee, a thread about it. I'll move my post from one topic to an other.[/size]

[indent][font=Times][size=20]?[/size][/font][QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]If someone uses premade brushes, the it's not particualerly talent, is it?

The only thing you'd need to get better is downloading/using better brushes.

If he/she made thier own, I'd be extremely impressed and could better tall the skill of the artist, therefore knowing better how to critique.

On the other hand, if he/she downloaded brushes from elsewhere, It's still good, just not as impressive, and I'd critique differently. I wouldn't comment as much on the background, for instance. I think downloading brushes it cheating.

Plus, since there's color issues with both the image and text, the only thing I find near perfect is the background. Still good, yes, but meh.
[/size][/QUOTE]

[size=1]Not that I ever use any brushes, but I don't see the cheating in using pre-made brushes. It's like saying one can't use a layer effect, or any other kind of effect. They're there to [i]use[/i] and if you like the results, you can be happy. As long as you use them in a way you like, and you like the end result, then it's okay.

A background is still an as cool background, except it isn't extremely custom. The talent lies in how you use the brush. If you made one yourself: yay, good for you. But for the sake of all that tastes like chicken (everything.) don't say one is not "particualerly talent" if they used a standard brush.[/size]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]
Maybe it's just me. *Shrugs*[/size][/QUOTE]
[size=1]No, it's you - and Retribution.

Thank you, I needed to let that out.
[right][font=Times][size=20]?[/size][/font][/right][/indent][/size]

[Ezekiel]

[SIZE=1]I'm sort of in the middle ground when it comes to my opinion on pre-made brushes. I think you two are taking what Retri and 'suka are saying out of context, neither of them are saying it makes you a bad graphic artist, just that you're maybe not as good as some others. I must say, I agree, but maybe not to the extent they believe.

When you're using someone else?s brush, it means that you couldn't use your own. Doesn't that automatically make you less talented than the person who made the brush? It still takes skill to use those brushes properly, which is why I don't see the problem in using pre-made brushes. You could easily download a huge batch of brushes, slap them on a canvas and call it art, but unless you take other factors into consideration, the picture is going to look shite. That's what defines a good artist from a bad one.


All in all, people who use pre-made brushes aren't bad graphic artists. They're probably very good. They're just not as, hmm?unique or creative, I think, as people who make their own brushes. I put myself in that category, as I use pre-made brushes as well as my own. (But really, who cares as long as it looks good? It's only for fun, after all.)[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[size=1]If you want to look like you can do fancy effects, but you don't feel like putting in the time or effort to learn how to do those fancy effects, pre-made brushing is for you. I personally see it as a lazy cop-out to use them. Sort of like using stencils of leaves when you're drawing a picture of a tree... not a perfect analogy, but it's getting there.

I have [i]great[/i] respect for those who throw away the brushes and do their own work. I must admit, I had stretches where I just made pre-made brushed piece, and everyone loved them. They took five minutes to make (literally), but they were loved. Those took no skill at all, and I'm extremely ashamed of those.

I began using pre-made brushes after about three months into learning Photoshop. I was frustrated; I wanted to do what all those cooler artists were doing, but I didn't want to wait months, possibly years more before I could do that. Pre-made brushing was that quick-fix solution. Granted, I was doing alright, reading tutorials and slowly learning to make my own brushes, but it just wasn't nearly as quick or easy.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/mechinfinity/clouds.jpg[/IMG]

That's one of my own brushes, done with the help of a tutorial when I was first learning. It took about half an hour to get all those specific values to look good. Now, someone could distill all that work into about two seconds, [i]click click[/i], and they've now done what I did. Below is one of my pre-made brushed pieces.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/mechinfinity/music.jpg[/IMG]

In the end, your work ends up not only more versatile because you can easily create your own brushes, but it's a better reflection of your skill. With hard work and dedication, you can achieve the same, and often better effects than pre-made brushes offer. See below for an example.

[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/mechinfinity/abstract1tag.jpg[/IMG]

In conclusion, I have much respect for those who persevere the tough times and keep working at it. The tempting thing to do is to just download that brush pack and start doing those awesome effects, but if you have the dedication to not do that, just know that I think highly of you.[/size]

[Boo]

[quote name='Ezekiel][SIZE=1']I think you two are taking what Retri and 'suka are saying out of context, neither of them are saying it makes you a bad graphic artist, just that you're maybe not as good as some others. I must say, I agree, but maybe not to the extent they believe.[/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Pardon me, but I never took Sakurasuka's opinion out of context and I only said that I knew Retribution felt the same way. You're taking what [i]I[/i] said out of context.[/size]
[quote name='Ezekiel][SIZE=1']When you're using someone else?s brush, it means that you couldn't use your own. [/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Not really. It could mean that you don't feel like making your own, or that you really like the other's brush.[/size]
[quote name='Ezekiel][SIZE=1']Doesn't that automatically make you less talented than the person who made the brush? [/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Not really. It makes you less educated in PhotoShop, than the person who made the brush. Or maybe more lazy.[/size]
[quote name='Ezekiel][size=1']It still takes skill to use those brushes properly, which is why I don't see the problem in using pre-made brushes. You could easily download a huge batch of brushes, slap them on a canvas and call it art, but unless you take other factors into consideration, the picture is going to look shite. That's what defines a good artist from a bad one.[/quote]
[size=1]Exactly.[/size]
[quote name='Gurt][size=1']All in all, people who use pre-made brushes aren't bad graphic artists. They're probably very good. They're just not as, hmm?unique or creative, I think, as people who make their own brushes.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]You're right. They're not bad, they're not bad at all. You can't say if someone bad or good by seeing if they use pre-made brushes or not. Nor can you say how creative they are. Like I said: It's about how you [i]use[/i] the brushes. If you can make something really cool with a pre-made brush, you've done the right thing and you've obviously used the right brush.[/size]
[quote name='Ezekiel][size=1'](But really, who cares as long as it looks good? It's only for fun, after all.) [/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Exactly my point.[/size]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']If you want to look like you can do fancy effects, but you don't feel like putting in the time or effort to learn how to do those fancy effects, premade brushing is for you. I personally see it as a lazy cop-out to use them. Sort of like using stencils of leaves when you're drawing a picture of a tree... not a perfect analogy, but it's getting there.[/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]You're right, that was not the perfect analogy. By far. They just use an already existing tool to create the leaf.

Now, you might be right about people being just lazy, but like I already said: they could also just like the brush, or think it fits what they want to create.[/size]

[quote name='Owner of Kraken][size=1]I have [i]great[/i'] respect for those who throw away the brushes and do their own work. I must admit, I had stretches where I just made pre-made brushed piece, and everyone loved them. They took five minutes to make (literally), but they were loved. Those took no skill at all, and I'm extremely ashamed of those.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]If you let just a random person go nuts with brushes on Photoshop, I?m pretty sure their pieces won?t be as loved as yours were. If the end result looked like something you liked (and very importantly: a lot of others liked), you did something right and you obviously have skill.[/size]

[quote name='Retribution'] In conclusion, I have much respect for those who persevere the tough times and keep working at it. The tempting thing to do is to just download that brush pack and start doing those awesome effects, but if you have the dedication to not do that, just know that I think highly of you.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]Tell me. Have you [I]ever[/I] took the time to not just download a pack of fonts and use them because they looked awesome? Apart from pixel text, I, for one, have never made my own fonts. There are a lot of great fonts on the web to use, and I don?t blame you for using them. The same counts for brushes.[/size]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Boo][size=1']You're right, that was not the perfect analogy. By far. They just use an already existing tool to create the leaf.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]Just as one would use an already existing tool (pre-made brush) to design a component of the piece (the tree as a whole)? Sounds pretty similar.

[QUOTE][size=1]Now, you might be right about people being just lazy, but like I already said: they could also just like the brush, or think it fits what they want to create.[/size][/QUOTE]
And they either lack the ability or they don't want to put the ability forth to make that effect. This is why I have such disdain for pre-made brushes. Many times it's an excuse, a quick fix of sorts.

[QUOTE][size=1]If you let just a random person go nuts with brushes on Photoshop, I?m pretty sure their pieces won?t be as loved as yours were. If the end result looked like something you liked (and very importantly: a lot of others liked), you did something right and you obviously have skill.[/size][/QUOTE]
Do you understand that most people who use pre-made brushes to excess are loved? Something I've noticed through the years is that whenever someone posts a flashy piece with all sorts of interesting effects, they go "Oooh!" Sure, if you let a random person go nuts it'll look bad, but if they have even a slight bit of skill it won't. It doesn't take a genius to toss brushing down on a few layers, color balance it all and toss on a stock.

Oh, here's something where I went crazy with the brushing and it was absolutely loved. It's painfully apparent this piece lacks skill.
[IMG]http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v294/mechinfinity/letter.jpg[/IMG]

[QUOTE][size=1]Just a personal opinion, but I prefer the pre-made one, over the latter.[/size][/QUOTE]
You missed my point.

[QUOTE][size=1]Tell me. Have you [I]ever[/I] took the time to not just download a pack of fonts and use them because they looked awesome? Apart from pixel text, I, for one, have never made my own fonts. There are a lot of great fonts on the web to use, and I don?t blame you for using them. The same counts for brushes.[/size][/QUOTE]
I would argue there's a distinct difference between downloading and using a font and using brushes that end up becoming a huge part of the piece. Most of the time, the font is secondary, and all else is before it.

That, and the degree of difficulty between creating your own brush and your own font is enormous. I can label you lazy for using a pre-made brush, but I cannot do that for fonts. Creating a font requires special programs, extensive training, and expertise.[/size]

[Boo]

[quote name='Retribution']Just as one would use an already existing tool (pre-made brush) to design a component of the piece (the tree as a whole)? Sounds pretty similar.[/quote]
[size=1] [quote name='MSN][b]Boris:[/b'] But the example was bad, because no one ever uses other people's leaves[/quote]
I might be nit-picky, but it doesn?t change a thing, man. :P[/size]

[quote=Retribution][size=1]And they either lack the ability or they don't want to put the ability forth to make that effect. This is why I have such disdain for pre-made brushes. Many times it's an excuse, a quick fix of sorts.

Do you understand that most people who use pre-made brushes to excess are loved? Something I've noticed through the years is that whenever someone posts a flashy piece with all sorts of interesting effects, they go "Oooh!" Sure, if you let a random person go nuts it'll look bad, but if they have even a slight bit of skill it won't. It doesn't take a genius to toss brushing down on a few layers, color balance it all and toss on a stock.[/quote][/size]
[size=1]If someone is lazy for using a pre-made brush, it obviously isn?t hard. Than how does making them yourself, separate someone from the people who don?t? A few minutes at most, obviously. It doesn?t take any great skills to make them yourself, it?s still about how you use them. You may label someone lazy, that?s your decision, but it doesn?t take away the quality of the picture. It only affects your opinion of the artist.[/size]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Oh, here's something where I went crazy with the brushing and it was absolutely loved. It's painfully apparent this piece lacks skill. [/size][/quote]
[size=1]Well, that?s just people?s opinions. It?s not really a matter of using your own or pre-made brushes, as it would have the same result, but then with custom brushes.[/size]
[quote name='Retribution][size=1']You missed my point.[/size][/quote][size=1]How? I just said I preferred it over the other, which I did. I took that out of the post as it didn?t really add to the discussion, anyway. [/size]
[quote name='Retribution][size=1']I would argue there's a distinct difference between downloading and using a font and using brushes that end up becoming a huge part of the piece. Most of the time, the font is secondary, and all else is before it. [/size][/quote]
[size=1]So? Where does that leave your typography art?[/size]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']That, and the degree of difficulty between creating your own brush and your own font is enormous. I can label you lazy for using a pre-made brush, but I cannot do that for fonts. Creating a font requires special programs, extensive training, and expertise.[/size][/quote]
[size=1]There. Brushes are easy to make. What?s the big deal with them than anyway? A few minutes does not separate an artist from a lazy-***. It just separates someone who likes to overdo things, from someone who likes to think practical and just uses resources at hand that fit the result he wants.[/size]

[John]

Analogy: one person invents a certain mechanism for use in an invention. Another inventor may see that, and use the same mechanism in an entirely different invention with an entirely different purpose (of course, since it's assumed that money is being made off both these inventions, the second would probably be paying royalties to the first). Alternatively, one software company will often make a game, and another will use an engine from that game and make another one that's very innovative and fun.

So really, it's not in the brush itself, it's in how you use it. If the premade brush is the focal point of the whole piece, then yes, that's a bit of a cop-out. But if it's used to accentuate or to add to the entire image (or theme of the image), then I don't see the problem with using it. To perhaps better illustrate my point, it would be much more acceptable if someone gets an idea for an image, and finds a brush that would help it, than if someone saw a brush and thought of a good graphic they could make with it.

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] @ Ezekiel- I LOVE YOUR ICON. Ok, with that out of the way.

The debate over whether or not brushes should be used can never been looked at through a black-and-white view. All of the points that have been made are valid, but they can't be the only points. You usually have to combine all of them and decided whether a particular artist is a cop-out or not. It doesn't apply to only graphic designers as well. A similar debate will always exists with filters and digital artists.

Just the other day, I saw a picture of an anime character on DeviantART in a long, pink dress. The base image and coloring was minimal, but it exploded with brushes that come with PS, and people loved it. On the other hand, some of my favorite artists on DeviantART will use brushes and minimal filter effects to only enhance their base drawing (which was already excellent to begin with) or use their own brushes.

What I'm getting at is that beginners will use pre-made brushes to make their pictures/designs pretty, but as they progress and gain more experience, they'll learn how to either make their own or use them in a way that subtly enhances the picture rather than make it up. There will always be people who, frankly, will not progress and forever make a mess of a design with pre-made brushes (like the picture Retribution posted as an example).

While they might get approval and loving from the untrained masses, people who are exprienced in the subject will notice it immediately and never get approval. Which is the only thing that matters if you're serious about designing and want to follow it as a career.[/color]

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]

Katana.

I don't think you're any less of an artist.

Just for CLARIFICATION, the quotes from Boo's post were from me asking another artist if he or she had used premade brushes.

The person talked like a beginner, and gave nothing but a 'Nice comments pls' sort of introduction.

I ask SIMPLE questions to new members and graphic artists here [like, 'what program do you use? Are those brushes done by you?]to not only make sure they're for real, but also to know how to better critique thier work.

He/she answered with a basic 'I don't remember, I just found it, I did it a long time ago' clarifying FOR ME that it was quite possibly
a) Stolen. Or
b) Done by a newbie who, of course, used premades.

And it helps me to know what pointers to give if I know whether or not said person made the brushes. Does it not? Honestly. Can't you give better crit if you know what the person did/didn't do himself/herself in said piece?



But that's not the point. I, for one, am dissapointed when good artists use premade brushes. It just saddens me. If you can make something your own, do it!

It's like Kazuki Takahashi tracing Yugi, it just doesn't make sense.

[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][quote name='Katana][size=1][color=royalblue]What are your views on using pre-made brushes? Do you find that the person is disgraceful for using them, or do you love the brushes yourself? [i]Do you even care?[/i][/color'][/size][/quote]I love using pre-made brushes. Especially since I?m new to creating graphics and making my own brushes is something I?m still learning how to do. The idea that using pre-made brushes is disgraceful is kind of like saying you can?t use anything by others in your piece. What about stock images? Should we also be drawing everything or taking only our own photos to use? It just doesn?t make sense. [QUOTE=Katana][size=1][color=royalblue]You probably realize this by now - I use pre-made brushes, and I absolutely [i]love[/i] them. I'm the type of person who can make pretty graphics (I hope), but I have a really hard time sitting down and thinking of brushes.
When I first found out about pre-made brushes, I was - let's face it - ecstatic. The things up for download were [i]way[/i] better than anything Adobe placed at my pre-disposal.
I have only two brush/media resource sites that I visit, which are [url=http://www.themagic-box.net/indexx.php]The Magic Box[/url] and [url=http://hybrid-genesis.net/indexxx.html]Hybrid-Genesis[/url]. I prefer TMB out of the two, since the webmistress seems to be friendlier...anyways...[/color][/size][/QUOTE]I felt the same way as it gave me more stuff to use so that my graphics had more diversity in them. It also helped me to see ways that I too can create brushes. Though admittedly I?m still working on it. I can make them, but I?ve yet to figure out how to create my own section of brushes. [quote name='Katana][size=1][color=royalblue]Few people really knew that I used pre-made brushes before now. So what does that mean to you? Do you now look at my works in disgust, or has your perspective not changed at all?[/color'][/size][/quote]It changes nothing in how I look at your pieces. Instead it just means your good at using the tools available to you to create pretty graphics. ^_~

I?ve heard others talk in distain for those who use pre-made brushes, but I honestly don?t understand this view. For those of us who are new, it?s a great way to become more familiar with how diverse the brush tool is and if we aren?t major graphic artists it gives us more diversity in our work since others who are graphic artists have taken the time to share their talents with others.

I don?t think it takes away from my work since in order to make good brushes I think it?s good to know how to effectively use what you have first. If you can?t even make something look nice with the pre-made brushes, how will the brushes being your own creation change that? You?ll still have trouble getting it to look nice if you couldn?t achieve that with the pre-made ones.

As for myself, now that I?m learning more I tend to use a combination of both, pre-made brushes and ones I made myself. Like the current graphic contest I?m in. I put a very light texture type brush on my section that was a brush I made myself. ^_^[/COLOR]

[Ellerby]

[color=#555555][FONT=Tahoma]Oh boy. Pre-made brushes. It's like the Lounge's Reliogion threads for the Art Studio.

Personally, I've only used pre-made brushes once. And that was because it was for the graphics worm and the person before me had used a certain brush and that brush was continuing on into my piece. Other than that, I've never used a pre-made brush.

I really don't like it, actually. Sometimes it can be faster, yeah. But I find I really don't get that exact look that I'm picturing in my head and it limits my creativity.

As for other artists using pre-made brushes? Yes, it does effect what I think of them as an artist. Mind you, it doesn't make a huge difference. I just go from "Wow that's really cool!" to "Wow that's really cool! Too bad you used pre-made brushes...", heh. It just seems weird to me because you didn't make the brush, so it's as if that part of the graphic isn't yours.

Here's an analogy for you. Say you're drawing a picture of a starry night sky with a lovely moon in the top right corner. Let's pretend you finish the piece, but you got your friend to draw the entire moon in the top right for you. Well that kind of takes away from the drawing, doesn't it?

Van Gogh didn't have his friends help paint his art. And I'm sure that any self-respecting artist around would never let someone else paint on their artwork and then call the entire piece theirs. I think it's the same with Graphic Design.[/FONT][/COLOR]

[Boo]

[quote name='White][color=#555555][FONT=Tahoma]Oh boy. Pre-made brushes. It's like the Lounge's Reliogion threads for the Art Studio. [/color'][/font][/quote]
[size=1]Yeap, but the difference is: we actually know what we're talking about. :3[/size]

[quote name='White][color=#555555][FONT=Tahoma]Van Gogh didn't have his friends help paint his art. And I'm sure that any self-respecting artist around would never let someone else paint on their artwork and then call the entire piece theirs. I think it's the same with Graphic Design.[/FONT'][/COLOR][/quote]
[size=1]Just for your information, but a whole lot of painters let their students help them paint. Anyway, this wouldn't have much to do with this topic anyway. The point right now is that you use someone else's [i]brush[/i] to make something cool. They don't actually do something themselves. But Van Gogh didn't really make all of his own brushes, now did he? <<;

...

Yeah, time to stop the examples. They aren't working out very well.

Brushes are just a tool to use to reach the end result and make it look cool.[/size]

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]

Aarayana: For someone new, it's alright. And I respect very much that you use some of your own as well. But it you continued to use pre-made brushes once you considered yourself an 'artist', then I'd call it cheating, and very much so a crutch that gives you an un-fair advantage.

It makes plenty of sense when you think about it. When you start out drawing, you use many tools at your disposal [Drawing books, online tutorials, some beginners even trace] but once you've been drawing for a long time and call yourself an 'artist', you really need to throw out the handicaps.

And it has nothing to do with the image. Everyone KNOWS that you didn't draw it, unless you specifically say they did. Same with text.

But let's say you use one brush pack for the background. Then you just put on an image. Then add text.

What did you really do? Position it? Maybe a few effects? Is that all? Well, I don't call that art, I call that cheating. But as I said before, Aarayanna, I respect you for using some of your own brushes. And it's not the end of the world, since you're new and all.

I'd just suggest that once you CALL YOURSELF an ARTIST, stop using them. But it's up to you, of course.



White: Agreed. Completely.



Boo: Letting students that are less-talented than them help them paint to teach the students is a completely different thing. Using a brush is leaning on a better artist than yourself for support to condone your laziness, and then calling it 'art'.

In months, the only things I've used that I have not made completely from scratch are a few of the blood splatters, which I extracted out of pictures and such. But most of them I still made, with paper and watercolors. Plus the grunge textures I made, I started out with pictures of hair, a brick wall, some graffiti fonts, some ACTUAL graffiti, pictures of blacktop, etc. and went from there.

Do you know how much cooler that is? How much better you feel, that you did it yourself?

And yeah, the majority of the analogies aren't working out well. Heh. I still like my drawing ones, though >=)

But.. Comparing paint brushes to PS brushes doesn't work, they compare better to like the defaults like the smudge tool and the flood fill.

Heh.

[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen]Well seeing that I?ve only been trying to really learn how to do stuff this summer, I don?t really consider myself an artist. Primarily since I still have so much to learn. I did stuff before, but it was more of a hobby and not something where I was putting a lot of work into it.

But after seeing some of the really amazing stuff people have made here I decided to learn more. And that included learning how to make my own brushes. Though I?ve still got a long ways to go.

Just out of curiosity, what do you guys do when you make brushes? I?ve tried scanning different textured paper, sections of pictures I?ve taken, but beyond that I haven?t done a lot when it comes to making them. Especially since I don?t have my own scanner and usually end up using one of my friend?s scanner when I?m over at her house.

Is there stuff that it?s considered cheating if you use it for a base to make a brush? I guess I?m just curious as to what makes the creation completely your own brush. Seeing that I?ve only been making my own for a few weeks. [/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Boo][size=1]Just for your information, but a whole lot of painters let their students help them paint. Anyway, this wouldn't have much to do with this topic anyway. The point right now is that you use someone else's [i]brush[/i] to make something cool. They don't actually do something themselves. But Van Gogh didn't really make all of his own brushes, now did he? <<;

Yeah, time to stop the examples. They aren't working out very well.[/size][/QUOTE]
[size=1]Actually, White's example was pretty good. I'll explain what he meant, as you seem intent on misinterpreting his argument.

Don't get hung up on the Van Gogh bit, that's not his main point. His main point was that [i]you don't draw most of a picture, let your friend draw a main component of it, and call it your own.[/i] Letting your friend draw that component would be the same as the brush. True, you can tell your friend specifically where or how you'd like that component drawn, but the fact is that at the end of the picture, your friend did part of your draw.

[QUOTE=Aaryanna][COLOR=SeaGreen]Just out of curiosity, what do you guys do when you make brushes? I?ve tried scanning different textured paper, sections of pictures I?ve taken, but beyond that I haven?t done a lot when it comes to making them. Especially since I don?t have my own scanner and usually end up using one of my friend?s scanner when I?m over at her house.

Is there stuff that it?s considered cheating if you use it for a base to make a brush? I guess I?m just curious as to what makes the creation completely your own brush. Seeing that I?ve only been making my own for a few weeks. [/COLOR][/QUOTE]

Stock photography, scans, or pictures are all fair game. So long as the picture has had minimal editing, for instance, someone else's art on the picture, it's usually considered a legit source. Don't underestimate the power of Google Image search to find textures.

Search on [b][url=http://www.pixel2life.com/]Pixel2Life[/url][/b] for tutorials on how to make custom brushes.[/size]

[Delta]

[SIZE=1][COLOR=#d55555][u]Marcel Duchamp's [i]Readymades[/i][/u]:
[indent]There is this particular sculpture, one of the first from the Dada movement I think, called [i]Bicycle Wheel Ready-Made[/i] by Marcel Duchamp. If you're too lazy to Google it, let me describe it for you: a bicycle wheel attached to a stool by its fork and hub.

Did Duchamp craft the wheel himself? [b]No.[/b]
How about the stool? Did he make it? [b]Nah-ah.[/b]
Where is it now? [b]MoMA.[/b]
Is it art? [b]Postmodernists, anti-essentialists and anti-antiessentialists agree: Yes.[/b][/indent]

We have these things called "principles and elements of design." Balance, color, color spaces, texture, lines, shapes and typography are but a few set members. More than the medium, more than the brushes, these elements and principles are what people instinctively and subconsciously look for in pieces of art.

[list][*] Balancing raws by carefully positioning images ain't cheating.[*] Creating a sense of unity and logical flow from brushes ain't cheating.
[*] Heck, even art majors will agree with me if I say that choosing [i]the[/i] right brush, digital or IRL, takes some skill.[/list]

After seeing many of you argue that slathering canvasses with pre-made brushes ain't art, I'm now wondering how you can venture into graphic arts and in favor of criticising the media used, boldly overlook the elements and principles of design.

Also, it makes no sense when you are able to make brushes but cannot put things together to form simple digital art. There lies one of the most glaring differences between brushmakers and graphic artists.[/color][/SIZE]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]Stock photography, scans, or pictures are all fair game. So long as the picture has had minimal editing, for instance, someone else's art on the picture, it's usually considered a legit source. Don't underestimate the power of Google Image search to find textures.

Search on [b][url=http://www.pixel2life.com/]Pixel2Life[/url][/b] for tutorials on how to make custom brushes.[/size][/QUOTE]Thanks, I appreciate the info. ^_^ I looked for tutorials online, but I must not be using the right keywords as I didn't find very many useful links. I?ve been thinking of trying to make some abstract art just to see what I could come up with. I?ve yet to make a piece that has nothing but my own brushes and the only thing holding me back is actually figuring out how to make many different brushes. Or rather to have some diversity instead of similar brushes. I hope that makes sense. Anyway, thanks again. ^_^[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=Delta][SIZE=1][COLOR=#d55555][u]Marcel Duchamp's [i]Readymades[/i][/u]:
[indent]There is this particular sculpture, one of the first from the Dada movement I think, called [i]Bicycle Wheel Ready-Made[/i] by Marcel Duchamp. If you're too lazy to Google it, let me describe it for you: a bicycle wheel attached to a stool by its fork and hub.

Did Duchamp craft the wheel himself? [b]No.[/b]
How about the stool? Did he make it? [b]Nah-ah.[/b]
Where is it now? [b]MoMA.[/b]
Is it art? [b]Postmodernists, anti-essentialists and anti-antiessentialists agree: Yes.[/b][/indent][/color][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
[size=1]I liken Ready-Mades to photography. In both you are taking what is essentially not yours and making it so (you did not build the bridge you're shooting). You are finding the beauty in real life. Dada artists were more intent on getting a message out there, and essentially creating anti-art. Many don't consider Dada "true" art anyway, but that's another debate.

So I'm going to argue that Marcel Duchamp did what a photographer did, essentially. He found the beauty in real life (as other Dada artists did), assembled refuse, and it was art. This differs [i]greatly[/i] from using someone else's brushes, which would be like having your friend pain half a picture and claiming it your own.

Here's a great example. I don't consider Marcel Duchamp's [url=http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.pattern/MonaLisa.gif][B]L.H.O.O.Q[/B][/url] "true" art. Rather, it was a joke, a statement he was making about society, but I don't consider him putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa having skill. The Mona Lisa was the equivalent of a piece based entirely on pre-made brushes, with very minimal editing done.

My biggest problem with brushes is when artists rely on them to the point where they become a crutch instead of a tool. The majority of the time, that's what happens. Tell someone to make a piece without pre-made brushes, and their world crumbles apart. They relied so heavily upon them, and now they have no idea how to duplicate those effects, how to make their work functional without them.

No one will consider you a legitimate artist if you use pre-made brushes. If you're doing graphic design for fun and not looking to make any real improvement, then go ahead. If you're looking to improve, to better yourself, you're only hurting yourself.[/size]

[Delta]

[COLOR=#D55555][SIZE=1]I have to say that your comparison of readymades/assemblage art to photography is rather inaccurate. Finding beauty (or its anitthesis) IRL is what artists have been doing since, ah, ancient Greece. On that ground, you're putting assemblage art at par with Attic, Impressionic, etc, etc. Rather vague, isn't it? I would've used "collage" myself 'cause it is a closer correlative in the sense that it basically involves premade raws put together to form an artwork. It's in the technique, really.

I can prattle on and on in the defense of the use of premade brushes but if arguments are ended with "not for me" or "in my own opinion", then I guess calling up analogies and high-falutin' terms won't work. However, as closing remarks, I give you not another analogy but an appeal:
[indent]Do not dismiss someone's work as "not art" in the instant you find that he/she used pre-made brushes. Instead, look for the expression of the artist's technical skill and understanding of the principles of design. Not everyone can pull off a piece with a logical flow.[/indent][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Katana]

[size=1][color=royalblue]I'm not going to really go into the main arguments of the last few posts, though I will cite some things.

[QUOTE=Delta][SIZE=1][COLOR=#d55555][list][*] Balancing raws by carefully positioning images ain't cheating.[*] Creating a sense of unity and logical flow from brushes ain't cheating.
[*] Heck, even art majors will agree with me if I say that choosing [i]the[/i] right brush, digital or IRL, takes some skill.[/list][/color][/SIZE][/QUOTE]
Design is a tricky, tricky thing. Even being able to put it into a working plan takes thought. Have you ever launced into a project (ie, the OBWT), in which you have no idea what you're doing? You find out just how hard it is to work with no plan.
Back to the point: After you get some idea, if you chose the wrong brush, the plan is dead and the piece just isn't right. It takes a general skill level to choose the right things.

[quote name='Retribution][size=1]Here's a great example. I don't consider Marcel Duchamp's [url=http://www.dartmouth.edu/~matc/math5.pattern/MonaLisa.gif][B]L.H.O.O.Q[/B][/url'] "true" art. Rather, it was a joke, a statement he was making about society, but I don't consider him putting a mustache on the Mona Lisa having skill.[/size][/quote]
It was a [i]joke[/i], alright? He just put a mustache on; he didn't do anything else. That's like taking a pencil and engraving your name on it. =P (DON'T ARGUE THE ANALOGY.)

[quote name='Retri][size=1']My biggest problem with brushes is when artists rely on them to the point where they become a crutch instead of a tool. The majority of the time, that's what happens. Tell someone to make a piece without pre-made brushes, and their world crumbles apart.[/size][/quote]
Here's the thing, though: I'd say the vast majorty of people who use pre-made brushes didn't even know about their existence for a long time. I know I didn't. You look at my works in the past, and they're made using Adobe's (and Jasc's, during my PSP days) brushes. I developed skill from that, and learned to be quite effcient with the limited sources that I had.
It actually took me a while to be comfortable "installing" the brushes (I was a worried little child), since I was afraid I would have to do 'this and that and blah and plus and minus and square root', etc. You go to a newbie in graphic design, mention pre-made brushes, and I almost garuntee they're not to be aware of what you're talking about.

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']No one will consider you a legitimate artist if you use pre-made brushes. If you're doing graphic design for fun and not looking to make any real improvement, then go ahead. If you're looking to improve, to better yourself, you're only hurting yourself.[/size][/quote]
Funny how I want to be a graphic designer in a few years...
You're giving me the impression that I'm ignorant about this whole thing, and I must assure you, I'm not. When I do go into professional graphic design, I will [b]not[/b] use somebody else's brush on my work, because, in all honesty, that would be illegal and not fair to the original creator.
So why use brushes now? [i]"Never look a gift horse in the mouth."[/i] They're there for me to use, so why not use them? I look at each brush when I get a fresh pack and study it and the elements in it. [i]"What did the person do to make this?" "How can I do that?" "I'll experiment on Thursday."[/i], etc.

Sooo...why do I not make my own brushes?

I have a feeling that I don't quite have the talent to make them - yet. I've made brushes in the past, but they just don't turn out right. So while I'm trying to get better, I use pre-made brushes instead.

You know, I've realized that I've never been complimented along the lines of, "Wow, I like those brushes." Now that I'm in high school, I've been displaying my talents wherever I can - designing playbills, making posters, advertising special events - and in the past year alone, I've had people compliment me on how well the pieces turned out. Did they ever say, "I love that background"? Nein. They like the piece as a [i]whole[/i], which, in all honesty, is what makes a great graphic. If there's only one good part, then [i]that's[/i] a handicap.

Brushes are only one piece in the equation. Everything in that equation needs to look good and fit together, otherwise, you've just got a worthless piece on your hand. It takes skill to make a graphic, but it takes talent to make it all click.[/color][/size]

[Retribution]

[size=1][b]@ Delta:[/b] Yeah, you knew what I meant. Collages do work better, and I was thinking about using them for my example. I didn't, though, because Dada artists used them quite a bit, and that would've been a pretty huge hole in my argument.

I didn't say I regarded art with pre-made brushes as "not art," but perhaps it was implied in my Marcel Duchamp example. I guess what I mean to say is that the artist is in lower esteem in my eyes than one who could do the same effect, but without someone's brush.

[quote name='Katana][size=1]It was a [i]joke[/i'], alright? He just put a mustache on; he didn't do anything else. That's like taking a pencil and engraving your name on it. =P (DON'T ARGUE THE ANALOGY.)[/size][/quote]
A joke? Sure, I'll buy that. But it's also displayed proudly in museums.

[QUOTE][size=1]Here's the thing, though: I'd say the vast majorty of people who use pre-made brushes didn't even know about their existence for a long time. I know I didn't. You look at my works in the past, and they're made using Adobe's (and Jasc's, during my PSP days) brushes. I developed skill from that, and learned to be quite effcient with the limited sources that I had.[/size][/QUOTE]
People new to graphic design are unaware of their existance, correct. However, those with about three months experience under their belt know about them. Why? Because of all the tutorials they read, a great percentage of them say "Alright, download this brushpack so we can get started." Then, the tutorial consists of teaching them how to toss these brushes onto a layer, setting the stock on top, and color balancing the entire thing.

By the time new artists learn of pre-made brushes, the vast majority of them are not of advanced (or even intermediate) skill. They compare their novice skill to the cool, flashy, and above all easy effects created, and the latch onto them. I'm glad you didn't go this route, but many do. I can't tell you of all the forums I've gone to where people [i]only used pre-made brushes for signatures.[/i]

[QUOTE][size=1]Funny how I want to be a graphic designer in a few years...[/size][/QUOTE]
Then perhaps you should try to develop your technical skill by attempting to create these brushes on your own? Having a good eye for design is all well and good, but if you don't know how to efficiently operate your program to recreate desired effects, what will you do when your brushes are violently snatched from you?

[QUOTE][size=1]You're giving me the impression that I'm ignorant about this whole thing, and I must assure you, I'm not. When I do go into professional graphic design, I will [b]not[/b] use somebody else's brush on my work, because, in all honesty, that would be illegal and not fair to the original creator.
So why use brushes now? [i]"Never look a gift horse in the mouth."[/i] They're there for me to use, so why not use them? I look at each brush when I get a fresh pack and study it and the elements in it. [i]"What did the person do to make this?" "How can I do that?" "I'll experiment on Thursday."[/i], etc.[/size][/QUOTE]
I encourage you to study brush packs. It's a great way to learn from very skilled artists. However, using them is not required in your study. If you're only looking to learn how they did that, you don't need to actually use them in pieces, but merely observe the way each brush was put together.

[QUOTE][size=1]Sooo...why do I not make my own brushes?

I have a feeling that I don't quite have the talent to make them - yet. I've made brushes in the past, but they just don't turn out right. So while I'm trying to get better, I use pre-made brushes instead.[/size][/QUOTE]
"It has to start somewhere, it has to start sometime.
What better place than here, what better time than now?"

I would recommend that you completely ditch pre-made brushes in your works. You'll learn to make your own faster that way. Learning can a long process, change can be painful. You will become frustrated, and you will want to go back to using pre-made brushes. I encourage you to persevere the tough times. Sometimes one must destroy in order to build even stronger and better things.

[QUOTE][size=1]You know, I've realized that I've never been complimented along the lines of, "Wow, I like those brushes." Now that I'm in high school, I've been displaying my talents wherever I can - designing playbills, making posters, advertising special events - and in the past year alone, I've had people compliment me on how well the pieces turned out. Did they ever say, "I love that background"? Nein. They like the piece as a [i]whole[/i], which, in all honesty, is what makes a great graphic. If there's only one good part, then [i]that's[/i] a handicap.[/size][/QUOTE]
If you're going into graphic design, you can't rely on the brushes of others to help your pieces out. Designing your high school playbill with someone else's brushes will fly, and yes, it'll work well with the other components of your picture. However, you're only hurting yourself because when you head off to college and take a course, or when you do something for a company, you will be operating without a chunk of your "skill set."

[QUOTE][size=1]Brushes are only one piece in the equation. Everything in that equation needs to look good and fit together, otherwise, you've just got a worthless piece on your hand. It takes skill to make a graphic, but it takes talent to make it all click.[/size][/QUOTE]
This is true, but that doesn't mean you have as much skill as someone who can duplicate those effects without a pre-made brush. In fact, it means that you probably have less. These justifications for your use of pre-made brushes are fine if you're just defending the here-and-now, and you're not talking about your future as a better artist.

[B]PS:[/B] If I sound disrespectful or mean, I don't intend to sound like that. Regard my tone as concerned and slightly frustrated. Thanks.[/size]