Religion

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I had to start this thread. I was boared and curious and we know what happenes when I get bored and curious.

So religion. Why do you believe what you believe. What faith or religion are you? Were you raised in that religion or did you decide to start following that tradition? If you started following a new religion when did you start and why? Do you feel that you identify with a certain religious group? Are there beliefs in your religion that you feel are out dated? Man teh questions are endless.

As for myself right now I consider myself to be Ecclectic Catholic because I attend church ragularyly (for now) but I don't really agree with everything the Catholic church believes and I still have some Wiccan beliefs.

I was raised Catholic and I still identify myself as Catholic, but I also study a lot of different religions and pick and choose what I like from each religion.

So what about everyone else? And remember keep it civil![/color][/font]

[Doublehex]

I belive in Christanity. I was born Christian, so it is likely that has had significant influence on my decision, but I still belive it to be the right choice. Now, some of you can chose to say that since I was raised Christian, I was 'brainwashed' Christian. Now, that is very likely, but dosen't that rule apply to all other religions/religous beliefs, atheism included? I mean, if atheist parents raise their kids in their belief of atheism, that will surely affect the said child's decision to be atheist (note, I am speaking in general here. I am not saying everyone who is raised Christian, Atheist, or whatever turns out that way).

Now, I chose to remain Christian because it is the one that makes the most sense to me. I honestly cannot belief atheism because it just sounds so foolish to me. I cannot honestly belive that people suggest that the world came out of no where, a la the Big Bang theory. I mean, where did the star that started the chain reaction come from? It just didn't came from no where - it [I]had[/I] to come from somewhere! Nothign just pops out from thin air.

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]

I love God.

I hate religion.

I have extremely odd beliefs about Judgement Day, some losely related to some Pagan theories.

But the majority of what I believe goes hand-in-hand with Christianity. But I am in no way a Christian.

But here's the thing. I don't read the bible [anymore]. I see it as simply another book on religious threories written by men. Men make mistakes. Men sin. So there are inevitably mistakes and purpose misinterpretations in the Bible.

I'm not one to get heated in this kind of thread anymore. I'm much more set in my beliefs, much more comfortable and open to new ideas. I specifically remember a thread on Religion not too far back that ended up getting closed, after much heated discussion of Creation vs. Evolution, and much sakurasuka making an un-educated arse of herself.

So, please, guys, let's not turn this into another 'Evolution versus Creation' thread.

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[Doublehex]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]
So, please, guys, let's not turn this into another 'Evolution versus Creation' thread.
[/size][/QUOTE]

As much as I hope that will not occur, I have a stron feeling that no matter what we do to avoid the issue, it [I]will[/I] happen. Man has just proven himself over and over again that, for some strange reason or another, he just loves to make his point known. He dosen't care what trouble he gets himself with, but his voice must be heard, and if it eventually ends up in a heated debate that slowly but surely crumbles into a barel full of insults and curses, he quite frankly won't give a damn. Especially when religion comes into play.

I think ChibiHorseWoman and I has just lit one of the largest flame fields in forum history. :nervous:

[sakurasuka]

[quote name='Doublehex']I think ChibiHorseWoman and I has just lit one of the largest flame fields in forum history. :nervous:[/quote]

[size=1]Yes, it's all Chibi's fault.

Kidding, of course.

Gah. I must say, since there is absolutely no irreputable proof either way, no side can ever be proven. So why even debate it?

It's been done to death. So meh.

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[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Doublehex'] I think ChibiHorseWoman and I has just lit one of the largest flame fields in forum history. :nervous:[/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] You obviously have never seen a Same sex marriage thread get started on this board have you? [/color][/font]

[Doublehex]

Considering I have been active for a few months, I'd have to say no.

[TheResplendent]

Well, getting back on track. I believe in god and i was raised roman catholic. I have taken with me the ideals and values i deemed sense-worthy as i matured through my life and I have had plenty of situations that give me plenty of personal reasons why my choice to have faith in god is true.

By no means am i a good catholic in terms of "by the book" since i havn't been to church since last easter and do not attend on a weekly basis. I have broken a few commandments and there's was no way i was gonna save sex for marriage. I often feel unworthy of being acknowledged eventhough i have faith because of how loosely i follow the actual religion...but i've gotten through a lot of tough times thanks to my faith. It's funny the one big discretion i have involves not saying a single curse word (especially the lords name in vain) when in a church or the presence of a church. Dunno why that's such a big deal to me but i can't bring myself to do it.

My apologies to all the atheists who think this is all just mindless babble and whatnot. I'm posting in here with confidence this thread won't turn into a giant bash thread for people who are ignorant to ideals other then their own.

[Hanabishi Recca]

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]

I love God.

I hate religion.
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I love that statement even though you probably ment it in a different way than I took it. I love God dearly, so most people would call me a christian. I love God and religion I could care less about. Religion is a man made thing. Saying that there are baptists and such things is a man made thing - just because they wanted to have different believes. But in the old church everyone believed the very same thing.

They all believed in Jesus, Holy Spirit, and the Father. These days, people are calling each other different religions because thats how they feel. Thats what I don't like. God didn't make people to believe in different things. God made people to believe the same way and thats according to the word of God. I'm not meaning to say anything against anyone - I'm just explaining myself.

People would probably call me christian - since I go to church - but I don't believe that going to church is what its all about. I mean, going to church is great to build yourself Spiritually. But what it is all about is having a relationship with Christ Jesus.

Anyway, I guessing that if you are reading this then you have some questions for me - I would rather you just PM me instead of making a deal about it on this thread. Too many times. I would rather save some people! Anyway, if you have any questions or just plainly want to be friends, just PM me!

Thanks for your time and remember...

Jesus is LORD!!!

[TheShinje]

[color=crimson] I was born and raised a Catholic. Due to some issues I had with the Catholic theology, I decided to go elsewhere, and I am now a baptised, well, Baptist. :p

I still beleive in the same, Christian God. I just worship him with a more liberal take on what worship can be considered worship. While the Catholic doctrine follows a certain ritual, or mass, to the letter. Baptist worship is more spontaneous and off the cuff. There's rock music too, rock music is good.

I beleive it is up to you how you decide to worship God. Crhistianity is a more flexible faith/religion than most people realise.[/color]

[DeathKnight]

[quote name='sakurasuka][size=1']Men make mistakes. Men sin.[/size][/quote]

[color=crimson]And so the chance remains that you as well are misinterpreting Spiritual matters as you go your own way.[/color]

[quote name='Doublehex']I cannot honestly belive that people suggest that the world came out of no where, a la the Big Bang theory.[/quote]

[color=crimson]Uh, that theory has the universe coming from somewhere.

I was raised a Jehovah's Witness. I went to doors, I preached and all that. I was extremely active, almost totally spellbound by the religion- I tried desperately throughout my school years to convert my friends, lol. I was baptized at the early age of 11 (JW's do not baptize at birth, instead making it a personal choice as to when you feel ready to get baptized and placing an extreme importance in the entire process).

About three years later I simply stopped going and have become an agnostic. I don't really have any problems with religious people who practice their faith until they try to apply their faith's teachings to major political decisions or are simply very, very [i]annoying[/i] people who should be smote by their particular deity or deities.

I'm agnostic. I don't think there's any way to prove or disprove if there is or isn't a God or what form he/she/it/they might take. I think that spirituality or, more specifically, the teachings that spirituality gives can be good foundations to be a 'moral' or 'good' person. From that foundation I think most people should form their own idea of what "good" and "bad" is other than simply allowing the Book to decide that for them. If you can be punished for simply being a creative, free thinking creature then perhaps I missed the entire point of why humans have such an ability, God or not.

I also have a problem with complacency. Just because there is a possibility in your belief system that, eventually, your deity of the moment will impose his will on the Earth and you will end up in some kind of a utopia (Heaven, a New Earth, whatever) doesn't mean that you should not do as much in your power [i]now[/i] to make this world as good for us as it can be.[/color]

[Ezekiel]

[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]
I'm agnostic. I don't think there's any way to prove or disprove if there is or isn't a God or what form he/she/it/they might take. I think that spirituality or, more specifically, the teachings that spirituality gives can be good foundations to be a 'moral' or 'good' person. From that foundation I think most people should form their own idea of what "good" and "bad" is other than simply allowing the Book to decide that for them. If you can be punished for simply being a creative, free thinking creature then perhaps I missed the entire point of why humans have such an ability, God or not.[/color][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=DimGray][SIZE=1]That's pretty much my view on God, as well. Though I'm leaning more toward disbelief than anything else.

I wasn't raised in a religious environment, nor was the area I lived in very religious. I went to church a couple of times but ended up finding too many things I disagreed with. I'm the kind of person that will only believe something once I've seen it, which is why I'm nore inclined to believe what science tells us, seeing as it has proof in the form of fossils etc to the beginnings of man.

I have extremely strong opinions that disagree with those of people following religion, which is why I prefer to keep my views to myself. I know how people can get, and I'm no different.[/SIZE][/COLOR]

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Like a lot of people I was born into a practicing Roman Catholic family, although unlike a lot of people it seems, I'm still a practicing Roman Catholic now, and my faith has never been stronger. While I accept that others will have a different view of what God is, what His Church should believe in and how it's run, for me the Vatican, the Holy Father and the clergy are the way to go. To use an analogy, to read the Bible without being trained to do so is a lot like reading a Shakespeare play off the bat, you'll figure it out eventually, but you mightn't get the right interpretation. While some people have problems with the Church's stance on things like homosexual marriage and abortion, I support both wholeheartedly, but God gave Man the burden of choice and it's up to everyone to decide for themselves what they believe in.

So that's me, the 100% Roman Catholic Irishman, continuing the stereotype.[/SIZE]

[quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy] You obviously have never seen a Same sex marriage thread get started on this board have you? [/color'][/font][/quote]
[SIZE=1]Quoted for truth. That and abortion are by far the worst threads for flaming.[/SIZE]

[sakurasuka]

[quote name='DeathKnight][color=crimson']And so the chance remains that you as well are misinterpreting Spiritual matters as you go your own way.[/color][/quote]

[size=1]True, but then I'm making my own mistakes, not someone elses. And I alone will be responsible for them.

Rather than, when at Heaven's Gate, repeating the 'But that's what I was taught!' mantra.

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[Albert Flasher]

[COLOR=Sienna]There's no doubt for me. I'm an athiest. Truthfully, I find the idea of a God, not to offend anyone, silly. I'm a man of science, of logic. I won't believe something in some book just because a lot of other people do. I use common sense to form my own opinions... To me, no part of religion makes any sense.

I was raised in a moderatly Christian environement. Some of our close family friends were incredibly devout Christians (Aswell as 4 of the nicest people on the planet... ever) and I went to church a few times when I was young (Then again, when I was young, I thought Ernest movies were funny...), but eventually I realised that it was just... a book. A really old book that's been translated and altered and edited so many times the original bards and poets wouldn't even recognize it anymore.

Oh, and please don't flood my PMbox with attemps to "save me." That's the one thing I can't stand about most religious people... They seem to think that they're obligated to 'save' everyone even if 'saving' is the last thing we want. I attribute the whole thing to the original creators of religion wanting to spread their message as fast as possible to galvanize a group of people to one belief so they could be united under one banner for some war or another.[/COLOR]

[Andrew]

Wow, I'm finally going to post in a religion thread! I am a 'Religous OB Thread Virgin' no more! But yeah, on with the rant!

My beliefs have always been faairly odd, shall we say. My mother believes in God and my Father is all about evidence and science etc and neither have really forced those ideals on me in either way. But generally for the longest part of my younger life I've always been firmly against God (or whatever forms of God(s) any religous group would put in my face that day). I'd often get really infuriated by it, refering to it as mindless crap etc and that was just me.

But, with most things in my life, I've really mellowed out as I've gotten older and began to look at life in a really different way. At this current moment, I feel there could be one (or more) all powerful being(s) that created us and govern us in whatever way they choose but I follow no set 'religion'. It's in my opinion that many religous factions have the right ides (being good to the neighbour, being good etc) but I've always looked upon them as ways to control the masses.

I'm of the belief that being good to your neighbour and treating people appropriately (even in cases when they don't really deserve it) is part of being a good person and not a rule some guy in a robe with a book told me to do because some God told him to do it. Then again, maybe that's just the way I was raised.

But yeah, I'm a little more tolerant to ideals of other people, and if they want to believe them that's fine with me. It's when they begin to preach to me about obeying God or following rules etc. That really gets on my last nerve.

[quote name='Hanabishi Recca']...God didn't make people to believe in different things. God made people to believe the same way and thats according to the word of God...[/quote]

Sorry, I just had to comment here.

If God did indeed create us, he created us with freewill to believe whatever we wish. And if he didn't create us, we still have the freewill to choose what we will, so this point has little relevancy.

I also agree heavily with what Ken said about having your own ideas on "good" and "bad" and being punished for using our freewill and our creative thoughts. That's one of the ideas I've had set in since I was really young, and mainly why I was against Religion so much.

I notice I'm kinda boarding on making this a flame-a-thon, so I'll stop here and make apologies if I've offended anyone. I'm more than happy to discuss it in a PM or IM if anyone has taken offence.

[Fasteriskhead]

[SIZE=1]The fact that we're able to talk about religion in this kind of way (and make a [i]poll[/i] about it, as if we were asking whether someone preferred Prada or Christian Dior) indicates that we already hold to a very specific interpretation of what religion is. Generally we think of religions as "systems of faith," as "personal beliefs," or as "cultural institutions." What else could religion be, after all?

I think this kind of interpretation completely misses the mark. From the start it assumes that this is a question of individual understanding, cultural influence, and the justification of knowledge, all of which I find very questionable. We, who are so clever and know so much more about things than everyone who has lived before us, talk about being skeptical of "belief systems" or choosing the "faith that's right for us" and think we're really saying something about religion, and this strikes me as extremely misleading. I would argue that religion (at least in any sense of the word I find meaningful) has nothing to do with "beliefs."

Let's do a thought experiment about believing, to see if I can clarify this.

Suppose someone were to say to me one day: "You behave as if your name was 'Scott' [[i]insert your own name here if you want to play along[/i]]. But what if that's not true? What if your name is really something else entirely, and you don't know it?" EVERYONE here, I would think, has had a thought like this - the old favorite is the one where you're really a brain in a jar somewhere. Anyways, if I'm a very clever person I will reply: "Yes, that's possible." But beyond that - what? From then on, will I introduce myself by saying, "My name's Scott... at least, I'm [i]pretty sure[/i] it is, and all available evidence points in that direction"? This is correct for some purposes, but in most situations it's nonsensical. If I were ever to say in a public place that "I [i]believe[/i] I'm named Scott," people would think I was insane (unless I told them I was just being "philosophical," in which case they'd understand).

I do have a point here, hang on.

"I [i]believe[/i] my house exists," "I [i]believe[/i] I'm not a brain in a jar," "I [i]believe[/i] my hands don't disappear when I stop looking at them" - who the hell talks like this? These kinds of statements only exist in "philosophical" contexts, as that's the only place they make sense. And in any case, I wouldn't even be able to take myself seriously when I just "assume" my name is Scott - just try, for a moment, behaving as if you aren't sure whether the monitor you're reading this on exists or not. When I say "I believe I'm named Scott" I'm not really speaking accurately, or at least not in accord with the usual meaning of "believe." For example: to say "I believe the problem with your car is the transmission" means I have a strong suspicion, that I'd place my bets there, but that I know I could be mistaken and that the problem could be somewhere else. In contrast, I [i]know[/i] my name is Scott. I'm completely certain. There's no way I could just be mistaken about it, as if I'd forgotten to carry a decimal somewhere and got the wrong answer name-wise. My name being Scott is so fundamental to what I am, so completely obvious, that were someone to tell me otherwise and were I to take it to heart, I really [i]wouldn't be the same person[/i] afterwards. Nothing else in my life, which is [i]built[/i] on the certainty that I'm Scott and not someone else, would remain stable; it would all sink away into a doubting well beyond mere skepticism.

When a really devout Christian says, "I believe Christ has redeemed me of my sins," she doesn't mean that she's made an evaluation of the available evidence and that this is her best guess. What she means is: "I [i]know[/i] that Christ has redeemed my sins - If I'm wrong about that, then I'm wrong about everything." Now what about this, exactly, is cultural, epistemological (look it up), or about personal expression or personal fulfillment? Where's the part where we "decide for ourselves"?

Religion is not about believing, it's about [i]certainty[/i]. Certainty doesn't just mean being sure of something (the only time we'll ever say a sentence like "I'm sure my house exists" is when some wiseass asks us about it), it means that something is so obvious that it's simply a given in any other understanding we might have, that we never notice it. Having to say "I know x" or "I'm absolutely certain of x" is already to step away from the basic function of x being certain, which is to make any other kind of experience [i]possible[/i] at all. And this also means: if I say something like "I have x set of beliefs" (especially ones that I "choose to believe in") and assume I've done away with the religion question, probably I haven't even glanced at the [i]more fundamental[/i] kind of certainty that grounds the act of mere believing.

Okay, time for an admission: I don't think there's any way to separate certainty from the religious, by an appeal to religion being "supernatural" or anything else (speaking about natural and supernatural implies that we've already understood the world in those terms). If we take the word in this way, then, we can never answer the question "Why do you believe in your religion?" because religion, which is essentially certainty, is the [i]basis[/i] for being able to believe anything else or interpret the world in a particular manner [i]at all[/i].

The Latin word [i]religare[/i] means to bind, to secure in place. [i]We[/i] are not the ones doing the binding; we do not choose our religion, and actually it's closer to say that our religion chooses us. We sophisticates think we've gotten rid of the gods, or at least made them into something we can "choose" to believe in or not, when truthfully they might be ruling over us now more than ever.[/SIZE]

[Esther]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][COLOR=Blue][SIZE=1]I have a feeling I might be attacked because of my religion. *coughMyMormonThreadcough*. Well, I'm proud of my religion and I really don't care if you're going to quote me, do so if you please.

I'm a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, we were nicknamed "Mormon" after our "Book of Mormon". I was born in Arizona, which is probably the 3rd state with the largest Mormon population, I think. I was raised in the Church, went to Sunday School, went to Seminary class during school. The whole sha-bang. And I'm here to clarify a couple of sterotypes that have been burden upon my faith:

1. We've stopped practicing polygamy for a while. Just because a few denominations within our faith have decided to go prancing around in nowhere Utah, doesn't mean the mainstream Church does it as well.

2. No, we don't drink coffee or more general "hot drinks" which can also be narrowed down to caffinated soft drinks. And no one ever said you HAD to, my Church has taught me that it is preffered if you take care of the body God has given to you.

3. Where on Earth did you hear we're a racist religion? Sure, when we were first founded our ancestors had slaves (as some of YOURS did too!) and yes, African Americans weren't allowed to hold priesthood until 1970 something. But all that has been in the past, and we're VERY welcoming to everyone.

4. Our missionairies/Elders/guys with suits on bikes, whatever you want to call them. Well, they aren't stalkers! We simply want you to come and join the restoration of the real Church.

And I have to bring up some points about other religions which I find faulty:

1. If there is to be no forms of "idioltary" then why do some religions proudly display the cross in their worship centers as an object for prayer?

2. Catholics: What's with this whole Mary thing? Why would you pray to her, if God is the one who you should be praying to? I find this as some kind of worship.
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[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]So religion. Why do you believe what you believe. What faith or religion are you? Were you raised in that religion or did you decide to start following that tradition? If you started following a new religion when did you start and why? Do you feel that you identify with a certain religious group? Are there beliefs in your religion that you feel are out dated? [/color'][/font][/quote]Right now I do not belong to any faith. My parents are Catholics, but they have always been rather indifferent and rarely attended church even when I was a child. In fact other than formal occasions we never attended anything. My mother and father both came from very religious families and once they were married they decided that since they both didn?t care for it that there was no need to attend. Something that rather frustrated their parents.

So now even today I really don?t believe in any religion whatsoever, in fact most people consider me an atheist other than the fact that I don?t necessarily believe there isn?t a God but rather that there is nothing that proves there actually is one. I?m not certain that one doesn?t exist as my ability to determine that is not possible. So I guess I?m saying I?m open to being proven wrong since right now I think there is no God.

The other questions don?t really apply since I never attended enough church to even know what being a Catholic is about. I know more about the religion where I live, which is LDS/Mormon than the religion that I was a member of as a child. So I don?t know if there are aspects of it that I would consider outdated. I do know of aspects I consider outdated in the LDS/Mormon church, but I was never a member of it. [quote name='Doublehex]I think ChibiHorseWoman and I has just lit one of the largest flame fields in forum history. :nervous:[/QUOTE]Just do a forum search using the word religion as a key word and you?ll find that this topic has come up many times under many forms. ;)[QUOTE=DeathKnight][color=crimson]I also have a problem with complacency. Just because there is a possibility in your belief system that, eventually, your deity of the moment will impose his will on the Earth and you will end up in some kind of a utopia (Heaven, a New Earth, whatever) doesn't mean that you should not do as much in your power [i]now[/i] to make this world as good for us as it can be.[/color][/QUOTE]Same here, I run into people who are waiting for what they consider the promised days and I?m baffled as to why they just can?t work on making things better now instead of waiting for someone to do it for them. [QUOTE=Red 6][COLOR=Sienna]Oh, and please don't flood my PMbox with attemps to "save me." That's the one thing I can't stand about most religious people... They seem to think that they're obligated to 'save' everyone even if 'saving' is the last thing we want. I attribute the whole thing to the original creators of religion wanting to spread their message as fast as possible to galvanize a group of people to one belief so they could be united under one banner for some war or another.[/COLOR][/QUOTE]I?ll second that. It?s never been an issue here at OtakuBoards, but some of the previous forums I belonged to. Well, it did get kind of old. And ironically I believe exactly the same, I think it comes more from the original creators of a religion, who were most likely a human (mind you this is only my belief) trying to get everyone to follow them. Not necessarily out of any real desire to save you but to use you for their own purposes. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]Religion is not about believing, it's about [i]certainty[/i]. [/SIZE][/QUOTE]I?m probably going to be taking you out of context, but if I?m understanding you correctly, I don?t agree. Taking your argument about believing aside, unlike the question of your name or your home, which are provable, by either a document showing your given name or by actually touching the said house. Religion though taken as a certainty is still something that is believed in by faith. The person has faith that God or Jesus exists. They have faith that Heaven and Hell are real. And though they may be certain, it is still in the realm of faith in the sense that they can?t physically prove it like you can prove that your house exists or that you were given the name you use by your parents. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1] The Latin word [i]religare[/i] means to bind, to secure in place. [i]We[/i'] are not the ones doing the binding; we do not choose our religion, and actually it's closer to say that our religion chooses us. We sophisticates think we've gotten rid of the gods, or at least made them into something we can "choose" to believe in or not, when truthfully they might be ruling over us now more than ever.[/SIZE][/quote]It makes sense that they would use such a word. If you were faced with something that was un provable you would want your followers to believe that it was already proven. In a sense it reminds me of a cult in that often the words chosen by their leaders and used to describe their religion are carefully selected to make it seem as if the leader is infallible and unquestionable in the sense that they already know the truth and therefore are certain and have no need to prove it. They make it seem as if our choices were already made and that regardless of our beliefs we are a part of the religion whether we want to or not. I hope I made sense with that statement. It?s just that often religions do the same thing, they are so certain that they are correct that they have lost the ability to even question. [/COLOR]

[sakurasuka]

[size=1]

Fasteriskhead. I understand what you are saying, but I don't completely agree.

You specifically said religion is not about believing. That's not true. Belief and faith is the entire point.

Well. I believe there is a God. I have not seen Him with my own eyes, so there is no way I can say I KNOW there is a God. Well, I could, but it would be a lie.

Noone 'knows' or else there would only be one religion.

So we say we [i]believe[/i] such-and-such.



And besides, we [i]know[/i] our hands don't dissapear when we look away because other people still see them.

Edit- Indifference beat me to it >_>

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[Retribution]

[size=1]What's up with the poll? Why does everyone feel compelled to identify as a man-made religion? Why mindlessly swallow all the dogma -- some of which you agree with and some of which you don't -- just to fly under the "Christian" or "Jewish" banner? Why not meditate on all the points of your faith and decide which ones you agree with and which ones you don't?

Man-made religion is one of the biggest wedges in all history.[/size]

[Raiyuu]

[font=trebuchet ms]Hehe, I've been around long enough now to see this thread pop up two or three times, and the OP [i]always[/i] leaves out at least one of the world's major religions. Poor Hinduism.

The core values of most religions are pretty sterling stuff. Not hurting each other - not pinching other people's stuff - being humble - that sort of thing (and I'm aware those were mostly Christian values, my religious education was decidedly one-sided). If we all just stuck to the values and stopped faffing about, needing cosmic ineffable deities [i]telling[/i] us to stick to them, the world would be much easier to understand.

I think the word for this is [i]Humanism[/i] - believing that as a race, we're essentially good enough inside to be decent to each other without imagining ourselves a controlling influence or post-life reward. Unfortunately I'm just too cynical - and have seen too much counter-evidence - to subscribe to Humanism, so it's good old Atheism for me.
[quote name='Fasteriskhead][font=verdana][size=1]Religion is not about believing, it's about certainty.[/size'][/font][/quote]'head, your posts brighten up my day - religious philosophy, by way of ridiculing Empiricism? Stellar.

The point you made is the reason I stopped sitting on the fence and calling myself agnostic - fine, you can say "I don't believe the existence of God can be proven" but at the end of the day [i]you[/i], personally, either believe in Him or you don't. I still don't believe His existence is provable, but I don't believe He exists, ergo, I am an atheist.[/font]

[Mr. Maul]

[size=1][color=DimGray]According to how you have your poll set up, one could come to the conclusion that you believe that Mormons (it's spelled with an "o" not an "a") and Catholics are not Christians.


Interesting...


[/color][/size]

[Sangome]

[size=1]Oh how unfair, I had this big ol' post, and just as I submitted, OB logged me out.

Well, I'll make this short and sweet then - I am Christian, I was born and (am being) raised in a Christian enviorment. However, if any of you saw me, you would guess differently - I hang out with those outside my belieifs (most Christians would avoid them like the plauge, but God also says to love them unconditionally, so I chose the latter), I am undecided on homosexuality and gay marriage (again, most Christians find both taboo, as I said I have yet to be swayed to one side of the party, but I could go either way at any time), and would you ever guess that I would like an anime series to the calibur of Elfen Lied? I'm also staunchly opposed to banning violent video games... *ramble ramble*

So basically I'm a [i]very[/i] opinionated Christian. >< Hyuck hyuck hyuck.[/size]

[Fasteriskhead]

[SIZE=1][quote name='indifference][COLOR=DeepSkyBlue']Taking your argument about believing aside, unlike the question of your name or your home, which are provable, by either a document showing your given name or by actually touching the said house. Religion though taken as a certainty is still something that is believed in by faith. The person has faith that God or Jesus exists. They have faith that Heaven and Hell are real. And though they may be certain, it is still in the realm of faith in the sense that they can?t physically prove it like you can prove that your house exists or that you were given the name you use by your parents.[/COLOR][/quote]Okay, let's talk about proof.

Let's say I have a compulsion disorder. Whenever I leave the house, the thought pops into my head that a fire might start and burn down my home. So, I drive back and check to check around - sure enough, the home is still intact, nothing wrong with the electrical outlets, the stove is off. So I leave again, and no sooner am I a few blocks away but: "did I look at ALL the burners on the stove? or did I skip that one in the back?" So I go home and check again, and the stove's still off. Ten minutes later: "what if one of the gas lines broke?" And so on. This is obviously an extreme example, but my point is that in such a situation there is [i]nothing[/i] that will convince me that my house isn't going to catch fire and burn down while I'm away. Am I, the compulsive, being unreasonable? Well, no. My behavior is incredibly [I]disabling[/I], obviously, but in spite of that it's still [i]possible[/i] that my house really will catch on fire. So the question one might ask is, why isn't everyone else worried about the same thing? Why isn't everyone [i]constantly[/i] worrying about fires, or germs, or poison, or whatever?

I assume that my house exists. I can prove it in this or that way, by taking a picture of it or looking at the bill for the home sale or by touching it. I [i]cannot[/i] prove that it exists ABSOLUTELY: the picture could be doctored, the bill a forgery, and the house I touch an elaborate fake (one thinks of the man who had all the things in his home replaced with exact duplicates). At some point, maybe, I'm convinced by the overwhelming evidence and I go ahead and conclude that my house really exists. Have I received an absolute proof, though? No; being convinced is not the same thing. One has to conclude, then, that folks who are certain that their houses exist, that those houses aren't going to burn down, that they're not going to catch ebola, and that their significant others aren't cheating, are ultimately basing that certainty on something other than proof.

Am I saying this to declare, alongside countless morons who think they know everything after watching the Matrix, that "nothing's real," "everything's subjective," "there's no such thing as right and wrong," etc.? No. But all explanations have to come to an end somewhere, and yet we still find ourselves absolutely certain of our names, our hands, and our houses. We can't [i]not[/i] be certain of that stuff, even when we [i]say[/i] that our hands really might disappear etc.. And that should give us pause.

As for the cult thing, while there have been plenty of hucksters out there who started their own movements to hoodwink dupes for sex and money, your interpretation isn't exactly what I meant in that section. I can't completely clarify myself here, but I'd say this: I think understanding religion as "belief" (and that means as something cultural, subjective, etc.) puts us in the very real danger of thinking we've figured out the religion thing, don't need to worry about it, and can pick and choose the "values" we like versus the ones we don't... when in truth, religion in a more [I]fundamental[/I] sense has swallowed us whole.

[quote name='sakurasuka][size=1']Well. I believe there is a God. I have not seen Him with my own eyes, so there is no way I can say I KNOW there is a God. Well, I could, but it would be a lie.[/quote]If you're a little confused, go back and reread the part of my first post where I talk about the belief/certainty distinction. This is a bit difficult to say in a simple way: someone who is really and truly Christian can admit the possibility on an ABSTRACT level that there may be no being called God that exists (in the same way that I can admit that I might be a brain in a jar), and yet they will still remain absolutely certain of the truth of God, grace, Jesus as the messiah, etc.. They can't not be certain and still make sense of the world in the same way. But this kind of "belief" is completely different from the kind you get with "I believe the problem with your car is the transmission." This is not an estimation of truth, it's not a calculation based on available evidence, it's not even a statement of values. What it is, I think, is best named with the word "certainty." They [i]know[/i], down to their bones, and most everyone else seems to constantly misunderstand what that kind of knowing is.

[QUOTE=sakurasuka][size=1]Noone 'knows' or else there would only be one religion.

So we say we [i]believe[/i] such-and-such.[/QUOTE]Which is, I think, a degradation and misunderstanding of what's going on. Of course the Christians or anyone else could well be wrong. The sun could well go nova without Jesus coming back; that's obvious and I'm not really interested in it. But that fact, and even their [i]admitting[/i] that fact in an abstract way, has nothing to do with a certainty which, as I said, goes well beyond just being sure about something. And I think that's what needs paying attention to.[/SIZE]