Religion

[eleanor]

[QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]
Religion is not about believing, it's about [i]certainty[/i]. Certainty doesn't just mean being sure of something (the only time we'll ever say a sentence like "I'm sure my house exists" is when some wiseass asks us about it), it means that something is so obvious that it's simply a given in any other understanding we might have, that we never notice it. Having to say "I know x" or "I'm absolutely certain of x" is already to step away from the basic function of x being certain, which is to make any other kind of experience [i]possible[/i] at all. And this also means: if I say something like "I have x set of beliefs" (especially ones that I "choose to believe in") and assume I've done away with the religion question, probably I haven't even glanced at the [i]more fundamental[/i] kind of certainty that grounds the act of mere believing.

Okay, time for an admission: I don't think there's any way to separate certainty from the religious, by an appeal to religion being "supernatural" or anything else (speaking about natural and supernatural implies that we've already understood the world in those terms). If we take the word in this way, then, we can never answer the question "Why do you believe in your religion?" because religion, which is essentially certainty, is the [i]basis[/i] for being able to believe anything else or interpret the world in a particular manner [i]at all[/i].

The Latin word [i]religare[/i] means to bind, to secure in place. [i]We[/i] are not the ones doing the binding; we do not choose our religion, and actually it's closer to say that our religion chooses us. We sophisticates think we've gotten rid of the gods, or at least made them into something we can "choose" to believe in or not, when truthfully they might be ruling over us now more than ever.[/SIZE][/QUOTE]

[color=dimgray]Fasteriskid, I could be interpreting what you wrote incorrectly.

What you're arguing is really interesting to me. I followed you up to the last four paragraphs, but then I started to lose you and stray off from the path. Are you making three separate points in your last three paragraphs or are you using them to get across a bigger point? And if you're certain about everything you've said, a concise thesis or something would be nice. So far I don't know how to reply. [/color]

[Goodbye, Face]

[font=arial][size=1]I haven't the time for a long, complicated post, so bear with me.

I am a non-religious person, somewhere between agnostic (due to my beliefs) and atheist (due to my attitude towards those beliefs). I sometimes question whether there is a god or not, but who can say which god of which religion is the real one? Are they all real? Or are all of them made up and there is a different god that we cannot fathom? Or is there even a god? We don't know, but everyone has their beliefs on it. My belief ends with those above questions.

I live under my own guidelines, worrying not if I'm committing a sin. I don't worry about pleasing God and going to heaven. Death to me is... death. What is it to you?

Sure, I cannot fathom suddenly not existing, it's an uncomfortable thought, but that's what death is to me. I just make the most out of my life and I just want to have as much fun and success as I can.[/font][/size]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue][quote name='Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]I assume that my house exists. I can prove it in this or that way, by taking a picture of it or looking at the bill for the home sale or by touching it. I [i]cannot[/i] prove that it exists ABSOLUTELY: the picture could be doctored, the bill a forgery, and the house I touch an elaborate fake (one thinks of the man who had all the things in his home replaced with exact duplicates).[/size][/quote]I think it?s safe to say that pretty much everything can?t be proven absolutely, but proving your house exists is far easier and it exists on a much more believable scale than to say that God exists or that Heaven or Hell exists. Which is why I was arguing that compared to proving your home religion was more of a faith issue as many levels of religion are believed in because the person has faith that they are indeed real. It?s something that unlike the home is not provable on any level. At least at this point as I?ve yet to see anything that proved Heaven was actually a real place and not just one that people think exists. Or that God is real instead of people thinking He is real. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]As for the cult thing, while there have been plenty of hucksters out there who started their own movements to hoodwink dupes for sex and money, your interpretation isn't exactly what I meant in that section. I can't completely clarify myself here, but I'd say this: I think understanding religion as "belief" (and that means as something cultural, subjective, etc.) puts us in the very real danger of thinking we've figured out the religion thing, don't need to worry about it, and can pick and choose the "values" we like versus the ones we don't... when in truth, religion in a more [I]fundamental[/I'] sense has swallowed us whole.[/SIZE][/quote]Cults are very similar in my mind which is why I was using it as an example. Religion has in many ways been used through out history to control other people and I was trying to say that by claiming certainty over something that in all reality is not certain was simply another means of trying to make something that wasn?t real, or rather provable as being real, as something that is in fact real. When we don?t know for sure if it really is.

I think the reason people say they believe is on some level they are desperate to be right and yet saying they believe is more accurate than saying religion is a certainty. Now if you are talking in the sense that because it is so prevalent and widespread that in that respect it is a certainty. Then I would agree as pretty much everywhere I go I am certain to run into some form of religion. ;)[/COLOR]

[DeadSeraphim]

[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]I'm Christian, and proud of the fact. I don't intend church because of location and impossibility, but once I get a car I intend to try some out, and find something I can gel with. Considering the church that brought me into Christianity is in the Philippines, and I live in Australia with no hopes or openings to ever visit the Philippines again, after getting a car it's high on my agenda.

That's not to say I think visiting a church is a prerequisite of being a Christian, of course, I just enjoy the atmosphere.[/font][/color][/size]

[sakurasuka]

[QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]
If you're a little confused, go back and reread the part of my first post where I talk about the belief/certainty distinction.[/size][/quote]

[size=1]Hm. You do tend to a bit long-winded, sorry I misunderstood you.

Also, I think you are putting too much wieght on 'knowledge' rather than 'belief', which is why what you say rubs my the wrong way.

And the idea of God, to most, [i]is[/i] a philisophical concept.

[/size]

[Fasteriskhead]

[quote name='Lunox][color=dimgray'] I followed you up to the last four paragraphs, but then I started to lose you and stray off from the path. Are you making three separate points in your last three paragraphs or are you using them to get across a bigger point? And if you're certain about everything you've said, a concise thesis or something would be nice. So far I don't know how to reply. [/color][/quote][SIZE=1]Yeah, the argument is really written backwards - it might even make more sense if you read it bottom up. As for a thesis... I'm very bad at those. The closest you'll get is that second sentence in the last paragraph. Buuut, mainly just to see if I can do it, I'm going to try to sum up what I'm saying. (And I should note that I'm using my terms very specifically here, so no fair objecting that I'm not using the word "belief" in the right way)

1. Certainty is the essence of religion.
1a. "Certainty" means something given which first makes possible an understanding of the world as such.
1b. As given, certainty cannot be "chosen" because it itself is what first creates a basis for choice.
2. Something taken as certain can, in an abstract way, be [i]admitted[/i] as up to speculation, but cannot [I]actually[/I] be doubted because it itself provides the basis for doubting.
2a. Certainty cannot be doubted - it can only be violently forced out in such a way that the world is thrown into a kind of chaos, an abyss.
3. Believing - that is, making a justified estimate about a state of affairs in the world - has nothing to do with certainty, although beliefs are originally grounded in certainty.
3a. Religions are thus not belief systems in this sense, per 1.
3b. Ditto for value systems.
4. Interpretations of religions as systems of beliefs (or of values) miss the more fundamental meaning of religion as certainty.
4a. These interpretations, by examining a constantly shifting set of beliefs/values, are also incapable of discussing in an explicit way the certainty upon which their own understanding of such beliefs, or any other, is based.
4aa. Religion itself thus becomes obscured, and certainty is understood only in terms of more beliefs among others.
4ab. Increasingly improved sets of beliefs and values are sought, the idea being to create the most "ideal" religion (read: system of beliefs/values). Religion is now understood mainly as a useful vehicle for personal and cultural goals.
5. Is there a [I]danger[/I] in the fact that religion, i.e. certainty, is not recognized or understood in an explicit way?

I don't think I had anything from 4a down in my first posts, but there they are.[/SIZE]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

Let?s see, religion? I guess I would have to say I?m Mormon as it is the faith I currently belong too. But you?re poll is confusing as we are also considered Christians as well. So do I make two choices? Oh and by the way, you spelled Mormon wrong. ;)

Now I?ve been a member of this religion for a very long time and now that I am older I am finding that although I still believe and attend church I am no longer as devoted as I once was. Why? Because being too strict about religion has resulted in alienating some of my children, something I wish I could go back and change since now I realized that no religion is worth alienating your kids over. Especially when they are good kids who for their own reasons are not religious like you are.

So though I still consider myself a member of the Mormon church, which by the way if you are being correct is actually the LDS church and Mormon is just what other?s call it as that?s more of a nickname and not the actual name of the church. Anyway, what I was saying is that on some level though I still believe I am not so certain that my way is the only way. In fact I?m probably quite sure of it not being the only way. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]1. Certainty is the essence of religion.
1a. "Certainty" means something given which first makes possible an understanding of the world as such.
1b. As given, certainty cannot be "chosen" because it itself is what first creates a basis for choice.
[/SIZE][/QUOTE]If you don?t mind my saying so, you are quite long winded. You remind me of my philosophy teacher from back in High School. But I?ll take a swing at it just the same and I?ll probably misunderstand you as much as I did him. ;)

All right, number one. Of course certainty is the essence of religion. In a world of uncertainty people want something that is. Something that no matter what happens can not be effected or changed by the real world. So the idea that something greater than us has already determined the world gives people the idea that they have a choice as the more difficult aspects have already been taken care of. They don?t chose to be a part of the religion it was already waiting for them. Or so the idea goes. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]2. Something taken as certain can, in an abstract way, be [i]admitted[/i] as up to speculation, but cannot [I]actually[/I] be doubted because it itself provides the basis for doubting.
2a. Certainty cannot be doubted - it can only be violently forced out in such a way that the world is thrown into a kind of chaos, an abyss.[/size][/quote]Naturally, if certainty could be doubted then it wouldn?t be certain right? But at the same time you still have to wonder if that certainty is in fact the genuine article so to speak, thus in some ways religion though considered a certainty is in fact the very essence of doubt as it is not tangible on a level that we can comprehend. So we must question if our certainty is in fact that which is certain. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]3. Believing - that is, making a justified estimate about a state of affairs in the world - has nothing to do with certainty, although beliefs are originally grounded in certainty.
3a. Religions are thus not belief systems in this sense, per 1.
3b. Ditto for value systems.[/size][/quote]Actually in that respect I believe you are wrong. Believing is the very first step in determining if something is indeed certain. Regardless of what we are talking about at some point something has to be real to you and that is where belief comes in. You can argue that this is more of a state of mind, but without the belief, nothing is certain or real. Now whether or not the belief is true is another matter. Which makes religion very much a system of belief instead of certainty. Unless you are referring to what indifference meant about the certainty that you will find religion in the world as it is so prevalent in so many forms. [QUOTE=Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]4. Interpretations of religions as systems of beliefs (or of values) miss the more fundamental meaning of religion as certainty.
4a. These interpretations, by examining a constantly shifting set of beliefs/values, are also incapable of discussing in an explicit way the certainty upon which their own understanding of such beliefs, or any other, is based.
4aa. Religion itself thus becomes obscured, and certainty is understood only in terms of more beliefs among others.
4ab. Increasingly improved sets of beliefs and values are sought, the idea being to create the most "ideal" religion (read: system of beliefs/values). Religion is now understood mainly as a useful vehicle for personal and cultural goals.[/size][/quote]Not necessarily, rather they question the reality of whether or not religions are in fact a certainty. Said interpretations will not change the reality of it being a certainty or not, but they are interesting in that instead of following a belief they are trying to determine if said certainty really is real. I think your last point is probably the most accurate as right now the main focus of religion is the tampering done by men who use such tools to further their own agenda. They raise the question that if religion is certain, why would it suddenly change? Thus proving even more that religion is not a certainty. At least not in the same way that more tangible items are. Like the before mentioned proof that a house exists. [quote name='Fasteriskhead][SIZE=1]5. Is there a [I]danger[/I'] in the fact that religion, i.e. certainty, is not recognized or understood in an explicit way?[/SIZE][/quote]Why would their be a danger? If something is not certain or is not really provable as certain why is their a danger? There is no danger in questioning the belief that religion is a certainty. In many ways I think it is. But I?ve been around long enough to have many beliefs turn out to not be as certain as I once thought they were. So why would I have to go on the basis that religion is a certainty when it is not provable? Other than it?s prevalent and many people think it is. I find it ironic that people can be so firm in their certainty that it does exist when in fact it is not a provable or very certain fact. One would think that all the wars fought in the name of religion over the centuries would be an indicator that it is not certain as the argument over who is right continues. Something that is certain would have no argument as it would just exist and be a certain way regardless of our arguments to the contrary.

Anyway, if I have misunderstood you, by all means clarify, but to be honest, you are a difficult person to follow when you post.

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] Thanks for that.

I see what you're saying, but I can't exactly agree. There are a lot of personal philosophies that readers would have to agree with to support what you're saying, but it's a new and interesting way to look at everything. :) [/color]

[quote=Fasteriskhead][size=1]1. Certainty is the essence of religion.
1a. "Certainty" means something given which first makes possible an understanding of the world as such.
1b. As given, certainty cannot be "chosen" because it itself is what first creates a basis for choice.[/size][/quote]

[color=dimgray]My biggest disagreement lies in these three parts of your argument. People can be certain of their religion, but this is a personal choice. The real choosing is when people decide to place their faith in this 'certainty' that is their religion. But if "certainty" is something given that makes an understanding of the world possible, why can't it be chosen? You say it's because the certainty itself created the basis for choice, but how? Basically what I'm getting at is that religion itself as a subject is too broad to try and break down into logic. The line between faith and rationality is blurred and occurs at different places under different circumstances.

Religion is surely grounded in politics and it's been perverted and abused plenty, but I don't think it's understood that way. People may use religion to get their way, but there are faithful people who abide by it in a purely devout manner. At the same time, these faith-driven followers can be blinded by the religion and misinterpret it, but can we assume that they really believe what they're doing is right? [/color]

[DaSilva]

I for one am proudly a [URL=http://www.churchofreality.com/]realist[/URL].We believe
in everything that is real. Most people just call this atheism. But it is not. In a way, it is one step after atheism. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of reality, the Church of Reality is really a religious commitment to the pursuit of reality the way it really is. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We try to understand the understanding of understanding. We are Explorers not followers. The phrase "What is Real?" is our Sacred Question and the word "Reality" is our Sacred Message. We talk about reality, think about reality, and make reality more important in society.

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=SeaGreen][quote name='Aaryanna_Mom']Now I?ve been a member of this religion for a very long time and now that I am older I am finding that although I still believe and attend church I am no longer as devoted as I once was. Why? Because being too strict about religion has resulted in alienating some of my children, something I wish I could go back and change since now I realized that no religion is worth alienating your kids over. Especially when they are good kids who for their own reasons are not religious like you are.[/quote]I agree! But then since I?m one of those non-religious kids who you haven?t alienated it?s no surprise right? ^_~

Anyway, like my Mom I too am LDS/Mormon. And though I was raised this way, last year I decided I don?t want to be part of any religion. So after a few fights with my Mom we finally came to the agreement that I have the right to decide for myself. ^_~ So now I only go to church occasionally with her and the rest of the time I just stay at home instead.

The main reason I changed is I came to the realization that just because something is written in a book doesn?t mean that it?s true. And if the LDS/Mormon church was the true church why are there so many religions in the world. So it?s more like I?m on a journey to discover what I really believe in as on some levels I?m not even sure if I believe God exists either.

The other reason is because I don?t agree with the LDS view that pretty much makes women unable to hold any form of leadership. They claim to be equal for everyone, but it?s a lie. And any time I tried to ask questions when I did go to church people were so nasty and rude to me as if I lacked faith for even asking. It just bugged me that their whole attitude was I didn?t know my place so to speak. Which according to one guy, was to get married and produce babies. *snort* As if! Arrogant jackass!

Anyway, so right now I guess I?m in between believing in God and being an atheist. Especially since some of the ethics books I?ve been reading also seem to show that being a good person does not require religion in any form. And if I don?t make any sense, fair enough as I?m still figuring out what I want to believe. ^_~[/COLOR]

[Retribution]

[QUOTE=DaSilva]I for one am proudly a [URL=http://www.churchofreality.com/]realist[/URL].We believe
in everything that is real. Most people just call this atheism. But it is not. In a way, it is one step after atheism. Our motto is, "If it's real, we believe in it." Since no one knows all of reality, the Church of Reality is really a religious commitment to the pursuit of reality the way it really is. We think about thinking. We wonder about wondering. We try to understand the understanding of understanding. We are Explorers not followers. The phrase "What is Real?" is our Sacred Question and the word "Reality" is our Sacred Message. We talk about reality, think about reality, and make reality more important in society.[/QUOTE]
[size=1]I believe realism isn't the term you're looking for. A realist (pragmatist) rejects the visionary or ideal, and instead embraces the practical. They don't necessarily "believe" everything that's real.

Now, this Church of Reality business sounds rather fishy. How do you know we're not living in a Matrix of sorts, perhaps just being brains in vats in some dark room being fed stimuli? Perhaps we're all living in a dream and when we die we wake up? Is your Chuch devoted to percieved truths and realities? If so, you could be pursuing in vain if we are after all just brains in vats.

The phrase "What is Real?" is so open ended, and if you asked a Buddhist you'd get a much different answer than if you asked an Atheist. All I'm saying is don't assume that our percieved reality is the only one -- perhaps we're just a variable in a science experiment.[/size]

[Zen]

[color=darkred][size=1]

Oh my, it has returned. I do remember one of these threads from about three or four months ago. Well, here goes mine.


I personally don't bind myself to a single church or doctrine of belief. I am most definetly a believer in the conventional Christian religion. This means for me, that I personally believe that Jesus Christ was my savior, and was the Son of God. I believe in the Christian God, and what I'd like to believe is also the God of the Judaic and Islamic faiths (this is even stated in the Qaran) and I have no problem with looking outside of the Christian religion for guidance in spirituality. For me, this means that I will read and apply beliefs from such religions as Buddhism, Taoism, and such to basically enlighten myself. I've come to find that Jesus Christ, Mohammed, and Buddha all spread an extremely similar message. So I don't see how I could misguide myself by studying others.

After all, if you want to know your own religion better, study others. Learn the differences and find what you personally believe to be true. Do to my open-mindedness when it comes to spiritual and religious matters, I really don't feel comfortable visiting my local churches, do to their own close-mindedness. Baptists, Puritans, and other, stricter, religions scare me off. People do not attend church around here, it would seem, to find their own soul's peace, but to simply show out and use it as a social venue. So for me, my religion and relationship with God is strictly personal. I'll share my views, but I'd never ask someone to change to my own mindset. That is up to them alone to find their own peace.

I respect all religions and beliefs. I've only chosen mine because upon review, I've found that it's the one that I can most believe in and that I feel most confident in when it comes down to things. My faith is the only thing that holds me to my religion, not proof. I could be wrong, but so could others. Should the truth evade me, or should none of it been true, then I'll have lost nothing other than lived my life with hope. And you can't be dissapointed if you're dead. Haha. I will have just lived my entire life with hope, even if it was false, at least I had it. A litte extra motivation.

That's me. [/color][/size]

[Inu-Hime]

I am a Christian. I believe in Jesus Christ as my personal Saviour and in the Bible full-heartedly. I'd like to write more, but I think I've said everything I believe in those two sentences.

[DaSilva]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I believe realism isn't the term you're looking for. A realist (pragmatist) rejects the visionary or ideal, and instead embraces the practical. They don't necessarily "believe" everything that's real.

Now, this Church of Reality business sounds rather fishy. How do you know we're not living in a Matrix of sorts, perhaps just being brains in vats in some dark room being fed stimuli? Perhaps we're all living in a dream and when we die we wake up? Is your Chuch devoted to percieved truths and realities? If so, you could be pursuing in vain if we are after all just brains in vats.

The phrase "What is Real?" is so open ended, and if you asked a Buddhist you'd get a much different answer than if you asked an Atheist. All I'm saying is don't assume that our percieved reality is the only one -- perhaps we're just a variable in a science experiment.[/size][/QUOTE]

Yes, perhaps. But until that is proven, we will just go on believing in the reality that we know right now.

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f]I'm was born and raised as a muslim. I studied my religion and it makes sense to me, so I choose is Islam as my way of life. The Quran has proven to me that is is in fact a divine revelation, that no human could have written it, and that in itself proves to me that God exists, because if there was no God, the Quran is impossible.[/COLOR]

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I'm was born and raised as a muslim. I studied my religion and it makes sense to me, so I choose is Islam as my way of life. The Quran has proven to me that is is in fact a divine revelation, that no human could have written it, and that in itself proves to me that God exists, because if there was no God, the Quran is impossible.[/COLOR][/quote]

Out of curiosity, are you Shiite or Sunni? And what do you think of the Druze?

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']I'm was born and raised as a muslim. I studied my religion and it makes sense to me, so I choose is Islam as my way of life. The Quran has proven to me that is is in fact a divine revelation, that no human could have written it, and that in itself proves to me that God exists, because if there was no God, the Quran is impossible.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]I studied a bit on Islam a few years ago and I really should do so again because I find a lot of your beliefs very interesting. And in some ways enlightening.

I especially like the idea that before you're born your good deeds and bad deeds are pre-determined. Also when you do a bad deed when you were supposed to do a good deed it only counts as one bad deed, but when you do a good deed when you were supposed to do a bad deed it counts as ten good deeds. That's a good idea and I wish that the Catholics would use that instead of confession... which I haven't been to since tenth grade. :animeswea

The idea that children are sinless coinsides with the Wiccan/Pagan idea that children have perfect love and perfect trust. Which is another nice idea. I really think that people who think that Islam is all about fundamentalism should do some research, they could learn a lot.[/color][/font]

[ChibiHorsewoman]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f'] I'm Sunni, but I don't like distinguishing between sects. I have Shiite friends. In fact, my best friend is Shiite, and we just call eachother muslims, because these so called sects are really just based on politics.[/COLOR][/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]That sounds like Catholics and Christians... Some Catholics don't consider themselves Christian and some Christians don't consider Catholics Christian. I think that has to do with the fact that Catholics have a lot of Saints that they pray to as well (Exhibit A: My mama and St. Theresa) and some other Christians think of that as praying to Idols. Stupid religious politics. When will they understand that we're praying to the same God?[/color][/font]

[quote name='Chabichou][COLOR=#004a6f']But I would consider jews or christians or anyone who followed their prophets in the past muslims, because they were following the right path. People just kept on straying from the right path and God had to send prophets to correct them. And Muhammad is simply the last prophet. [/COLOR][/quote]

[color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]That is an interesting concept. I like your way of thinking.[/color][/font]

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='ChibiHorsewoman][color=#9933ff][font=lucida calligraphy]That sounds like Catholics and Christians... Some Catholics don't consider themselves Christian and some Christians don't consider Catholics Christian. I think that has to do with the fact that Catholics have a lot of Saints that they pray to as well (Exhibit A: My mama and St. Theresa) and some other Christians think of that as praying to Idols. Stupid religious politics. When will they understand that we're praying to the same God?[/color][/font'] [/quote]
The problem is, when praying to a Saint for help or blessings, you're NOT praying to God. You're praying to a Saint, who, despite being in heaven and in God's court, aren't actually God. It's comparable to Amazon tribes praying to the ancestors of their loved ones to help in battle/child birth/whatever, except within Christianity it's a concept that's [i]not[/i] supposed to float.

That said, Catholics are still Christians by virtue of believing in Jesus Christ, and praying to a saint won't get them condemned to hell or anything. lol Jesus forgives, you know, it's in his MO.[/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue]Well to start with I was LDS/Mormon as it?s the church my parents belonged to and I was raised as a member. But then I grew up and went from being a member of that religion to not being a member of any religion. I don?t really believe in God and the idea of following scriptures which are suppose to be from God does not appeal to me. It was rather confusing since as a teenager I was never comfortable with the teachings of the church. It always felt to me like instead of getting their own answers they were relying on some outside influence that couldn?t be proven to guide their lives.

Also as Aaryanna already mentioned, it?s a male dominated religion for all that they pretend they are equal. And I ran into the same problem she did when ever I questioned it. To this day there are members who knew me as a child and because I drifted away from being an active member they will literally turn their backs when I walk by on the street and act like I don?t exist.

Now don?t get me wrong, I know that their pigheaded behavior is just them and not the church in general. But I still feel disconnected with religion and that applies to more than the religion I was raised in. Though I?m sure having my mother spend years using the scriptures to prove why I was evil didn?t help either. The end result, I?m far more comfortable being in-between. I don?t really believe in God and yet I?m not going to say He doesn?t exist as someone could prove me wrong. I?ve just yet to see anything that has me believing that there is a God. And until I feel on some level that it is real it just seems pointless to attend church and pretend I do believe when I don?t. [/COLOR]

[Guest dr.pepper1990]

Well my famliy r jew. I personly belive in no religion because if u think about the bable and "adam and eve" we would not be here. We all would be to retarted to function and be deformed. And how is *******,*******,and a** all a sin I mine did the lord write it down and said that it was a sin.

[Boba Fett]

[quote name='dr.pepper1990']Well my famliy r jew.[/quote]

lollerskates.

[quote name='dr.pepper1990']I personly belive in no religion because if u think about the bable and "adam and eve" we would not be here. We all would be to retarted to function and be deformed. And how is *******,*******,and a** all a sin I mine did the lord write it down and said that it was a sin.[/quote]

Exactly, we would all be retarted.

[kuroinuyoukai]

I am a baptist. i believe all the beliefs except one. I think that just because you believe in Jesus does not give you the right to do whatever and still go to heaven. Although if that's how it really is then there's not much I can do about it.

[liamc2]

[SIZE=1][FONT=Trebuchet MS]I belong to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and was fortunate to have been in the church my entire life. Both of my grandparents were converted on either side of the family, so I guess that makes me second generation?

It's interesting though, I may have been born into the faith, but that didn't make me automatically a devout believer. You cannot rely on your parent's testimony of the truth your entire life, eventually you reach the stage where you stick your neck out and truly ask and ponder where you stand. I have known my entire life that the church is true, for varying reasons. My memory is a little vague [don't ask,possible premature memory loss? Bad for exams, lol], but my baptism at 8 years of age stands out to me as one of the most spiritual moments and highlights of my younger years. I was old enough then to understand for myself what was happening. Naturally over the years that moment waxed and waned in my memory so when I was in my teens I was back to the "this is my life, I believe it is true" stage. I reasserted myself on the ground I stood and went to the various activities and so on that are made for the youth of our Church, and I'm grateful I did.

I was forced to come out of my shell and confront my situation. TFY [Time for Youth] was the greatest 3 days of my life. I was able to interact with other kids my age, all on completely variable levels of understanding and belief. Those three days kicked off a culmination of events that lead to me to [i]know[/i] that the Church is true.

When I was very little I had my tantrums and my parents still took me to church. That was me being encouraged to go. Eventually Sunday became second nature to me and it became part of my life, understanding the doctrines and so on. It was a pro-active effort in me to seek and understand and pray to get where I am. I love my religion and I love my Father in Heaven and his son, Jesus Christ.

I moved out of home a year and a half ago for university. Home and my family is now an hour and a half away,and my faith has never been trialled so much in my life. I have taken it on as the refiners fire and taken on what has been thrown at me, and I have never been so strong before in my life. I am grateful for what my Father in Heaven has done for me, and I will always try to repay his kindness and love. I work hard, I study hard and I do the best I can to improve my life and others. I have callings in my ward and I try to magnify them to the best of my ability. I am not perfect, but I will improve if I remain strong.

I will not counter or argue with anyone's comments in this thread. Some things have been said that sadden me, but to respond to them will only inflame the situation. It is obvious that many have their own minds made up about where they stand and what they feel.

I have learnt the hard way that you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I understand that people have their own faiths statutes and beliefs and reasons why they do not believe in God, and I respect that. If you are not interested, I will not force my faith upon you. I am human, however, and I must admit it hurts me when people say or suggest my religion is based upon lies and that I have been brainwashed. It doesn't happen often, but it still hurts. That's why I stopped reading these threads in the first place.

I will be putting my papers in in just over a year's time, at the end of my degree, to allow myself to be called to serve as a Missionary for the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints. I will endeavour to serve to the best of my ability, and not one iota less. I still have a lot of money left to save for it, but it will be the best two years of my life, and I will not regret my decision.

I apologise now if I offend anyone with my statement of beliefs, that was not my intention, but I outright refuse to apologise for who I am and where I come from.

I am Liam Cameron, 19. 2nd year Bachelor of Biomedical Science (QUT). Supanews Employee, Home teacher, Elders Quorum Teacher, and above all, a faithful member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.

I will direct those that do have questions to the LDS official site [URL=http://www.lds.org]here[/URL] and to the official site for commonly asked questions [URL=http://www.mormon.org]here[/URL]. Of course you could always PM me, whatever ^_^ [/FONT][/SIZE]

[Morpheus]

[quote name='liamc2][SIZE=1][FONT=Trebuchet MS] I have learnt the hard way that you can take a horse to water but you can't make him drink. I understand that people have their own faiths statutes and beliefs and reasons why they do not believe in God, and I respect that. If you are not interested, I will not force my faith upon you. I am human, however, and I must admit it hurts me when people say or suggest my religion is based upon lies and that I have been brainwashed. It doesn't happen often, but it still hurts. That's why I stopped reading these threads in the first place.[/FONT'][/SIZE][/quote]
I don't think I would go so far as to say that LDS (or ay other religion) is based upon lies, but they are not based in truth either. Religion is a matter of faith in your beliefs and understanding that there are millions of people that each believe different things. Everyone can't be right.

For the above reasons I am not a part of any religion, organized or individual. I don't really have set beliefs, but I definately do not believe in god. I especially can't stand god as described by most religions. The term hypocrite comes to mind.

Most religions are based on believing in them or going to hell. I find this fact very disturbing and utterly ridiculous: What "just" god would do such a thing?

In conclusion, I find religion pointless. There is no way to find the right religion since to non-believers it sounds, well, stupid. It has been created by regular people, and who's to say that they weren't just manipulative or crazy?