Gaming Play It Retro

[Shaholl]

You guys are going to think I am completely insane, but I still play Pong. Not the new one with better graphics for the computer, just straight up Pong. I get slightly addicted to it and play for hours on end. That and the original Tetris

Just to prove my nerdliness, I taught myself how to play the Tetris theme-song on the piano... I have no life, do I?

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=PWNED]I might have to disagree with you on that accout about most of the things you said; The story was decent but nothing special, the characters were practically all cliches and the Battle System was the same as every FF that came before it and if your talking about the Materia system then that is way too unbalanced.

If you want a real classic then play something like Chrono Trigger or Suikoden 2.[/QUOTE]

Final Fantasy VII was a classic.

The characters were cliched? A cliche of who? Note the game was produced in 1997 and there was no way near as many RPG games as there are today.

RPG characters are often the cliches of FFVII and other games before them. Do some research into the industry and market a bit more before you make statements like these.

It's a cliche by today's standards, but back then, and especially for me (being young and experiencing nothing like it before) it was nothing of a cliche.

P.s: I managed to say the word 'cliche' five times... now six. AHA!

[Papa Smurf]

[quote name='Zidargh']It's a cliche by today's standards, but back then, and especially for me (being young and experiencing nothing like it before) it was nothing of a cliche.[/quote] Age has nothing to do with it. You could be 5 or 55 and it wouldn't change the fact that Barret was clearly Mr. T, that the Aeris/Cloud/Tifa story was a re-telling of tried-and-true love triangle melodramas that pre-dated Shakespeare, that Yuffie is a psychotic Daddy's Girl, that Cait Sith is totally the Fool from Shakespeare, that Vincent is straight out of Poe, that Cid is a burnt-out disillusioned nobody who once had everything and now finds himself snuffing rocket fuel, and Red XIII is basically Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.

Those characters were always cliches; you just didn't notice it before.

[quote]Do some research into the industry and market a bit more before you make statements like these.[/quote]
*cackles maniacally*

[James]

[font=arial]This situation reminds me of Dragon Quest. The characters in these games are usually very stereotypical in one sense or another...and the story always seems to be pretty cliche. Despite that, the Dragon Quest series is the most popular RPG in Japan.

I think it is obvious that Final Fantasy VII's character underpinnings were highly cliche (I always thought Aeris was a very typical anime-esque character in pretty much everything she did).

But it's kind of like the complaint some have had about Zelda games, in the sense that sometimes people talk about Zelda games as having had a very light story, or not being as deep as other games. That doesn't really take away from the impact the games have had, though.

Some games just don't age well though. Final Fantasy VII is unfortunately one of them, although its achievements are no less impressive, viewed in context.

I also really regret not buying SSBM. I always enjoyed that game, although I only ever rented it now and again. I should probably buy it when I get around to it.[/font]

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=Papa Smurf]Age has nothing to do with it. You could be 5 or 55 and it wouldn't change the fact that Barret was clearly Mr. T, that the Aeris/Cloud/Tifa story was a re-telling of tried-and-true love triangle melodramas that pre-dated Shakespeare, that Yuffie is a psychotic Daddy's Girl, that Cait Sith is totally the Fool from Shakespeare, that Vincent is straight out of Poe, that Cid is a burnt-out disillusioned nobody who once had everything and now finds himself snuffing rocket fuel, and Red XIII is basically Eeyore from Winnie the Pooh.

Those characters were always cliches; you just didn't notice it before.


*cackles maniacally*[/QUOTE]


No, I understand what you're saying. (Red XIII as Eeyore, lol. o_0)

What I meant was... I had gotten the impression by his post that he was almost saying it was a cliche of other games, saying like a modern RPG. And therefore in this sense, I'd say that the modern games would be cliches of FFVII.

I perfectly understand it is one of storylines very typical of Squaresoft/Square Enix; Moody protagonist goes against an evil empire whilst battling his personal demons. As James said, it doesn't age very well.

The game made a huge impression upon me for I had, at the time, played nothing like it, so yes, age does have something to do with it. Just because I have noticed some characters were carbon-copies of others, doesn't mean I feel any less about it. The nostaligia clearly outweighs its elements when compared to today.

All I was trying to target was the issue that seemed apparent to me that FFVII was regarded was cliche of 'other games' which [i]could[/i] have been modern day RPGs.

By today's standards, it is a cliche. But so what if Barret was portrayed as a game-type of Mr. T? I found it highly amusing. I don't think Square generalised a cliche of black people assuming they all say 'I pity da' foo'. It suited the story and that did me fine.

The story itself is very similar to that of other Final Fantasies, but talking to other people at university...

[quote name='james']That doesn't really take away from the impact the games have had, though.[/quote]

:)

[Papa Smurf]

[quote name='Zidargh'](Red XIII as Eeyore, lol. o_0)[/quote] Quiet, mopey animal. Loner. Has a "Geee" attitude through much of the game. He's Eeyore with Limit Breaks.

[quote]What I meant was... I had gotten the impression by his post that he was almost saying it was a cliche of other games, saying like a modern RPG. And therefore in this sense, I'd say that the modern games would be cliches of FFVII.[/quote] He's not implying that at all. What he's saying is that there are better RPGs out there. And there are. Cliche characters were only one of his reasons for how FFVII isn't as good as others are saying. Plus, what in the hell does "cliche of other games" even mean, and how in the hell are you gleaning that from what he was saying? I don't even think "cliche of other games" makes sense. [i]Parody[/i] of other games makes sense. [i]Satire[/i] of other games makes sense. But nothing can be a cliche of other things.

[quote]The game made a huge impression upon me for I had, at the time, played nothing like it, so yes, age does have something to do with it. Just because I have noticed some characters were carbon-copies of others, doesn't mean I feel any less about it. The nostaligia clearly outweighs its elements when compared to today.[/quote] The game making a huge impression on you is irrelevant to the presence of stock characters. Being too young to notice cliches does not mean they don't exist to begin with.

[quote]All I was trying to target was the issue that seemed apparent to me that FFVII was regarded was cliche of 'other games' which [i]could[/i] have been modern day RPGs.[/quote] Chrono Trigger is from the SNES era. FFVII isn't a cliche of other games. It's a cliche in and of itself.

[quote]By today's standards, it is a cliche.[/quote] Um, something like Barret/Mr.T was a cliche by the standards of the 1980s...and even going farther back to the 70s. Barret is totally a blaxploitation character. He's Mr. T with some tracings of Richard Roundtree (though without the style). By the standards of the A-Team, Barret's a cliche. Today's standards have very little to do with anything. And again, it doesn't matter how you responded to those cliche characters; your emotional response does not change the fact that they are cliche characters.

Hell, The Graduate is one of my Top 10 films of all-time, but even though I love the film (and would totally get with 1960s Anne Bancroft if I could), I'm not about to minimize or ignore the fact that Mrs. Robinson hails from a long line of cinematic MILFs, a tradition started back at the birth of filmmaking. Most of the first black and white silent films at the start of the twentieth century were snuff films. That's one of the biggest reasons why I found your "study the industry and market" thing to be so amusing. Because it's the other way around. When you do industry research, the cliches become all the more apparent, just like Mrs. Robinson, a total MILF.

Talking about impact of games, though I think it's kind of silly to bring up the impact, considering that FFVII's only impact had nothing to do with characters. FFVII's impact was on [i]presentation[/i]. Nothing more. It was one of the first cinematic 3D videogames, with broad, sweeping camera movements and high-dramatic angles. There were times when the camera swopped in down behind Cloud in Midgar for a low-angle shot of the Shinra towers. You had these moments throughout the game...and pretty much any time we had any of the WEAPON appearances.

Just like how Zelda's impact was on gameplay and Z-targeting.

Both games had an impact on the industry. Story was not one of them. And story and characters are what we're talking about here. Not the presentation. Not the gameplay.

[John]

[QUOTE=Zidargh]Final Fantasy VII was a classic.

The characters were cliched? A cliche of who? Note the game was produced in 1997 and there was no way near as many RPG games as there are today.

RPG characters are often the cliches of FFVII and other games before them. Do some research into the industry and market a bit more before you make statements like these.

It's a cliche by today's standards, but back then, and especially for me (being young and experiencing nothing like it before) it was nothing of a cliche.

P.s: I managed to say the word 'cliche' five times... now six. AHA![/QUOTE] Even if Papa Smurf was wrong, and these characters were original for their time, Square Enix can only be held in burning contempt for the horrors that the Vincent Valentine cliché has since perpetrated.

[Boo]

[size=1]Clichés are good and cool. That's why they are used over and over again, making them clichés.

Final Fantasy VII was great. Everything fit well together; they used the better clichés and put them all together, plus adding their own storyline and things. Stop the discussion. Ugh. >>;[/size]

[Papa Smurf]

Boo, firstly, cliches are only good and cool when they're used well.

That's why A-Team was so awesome; because they managed to make the cliched main characters fun to watch. Plus, they had Mr. T bling-d out, cracking skulls, and an old, graying white guy who wasn't afraid of anything and would just run right into a bunch of terrorists. Even the idea of the A-Team itself was a cliche: ex-cons on the run who form their own crime-fighting unit. It was a live-action cartoon.

And it worked because it was done so well, albeit in a corny way.

Metal Gear Solid is another example. The characters there are tried-and-true character archetypes, and the brother vs brother conflict can be found in Shakespeare in varying forms. The cast of villains in the MGS series is a re-imagining of Shakespeare's antagonists. We've got witches (Fortune comes to mind, as well as Psycho Mantis), sprites (Vamp, Decoy Octopus), ghosts (Gray Fox), enchanted warriors (Vulcan Raven), Iago (Liquid Snake as Miller), clowns (Fatman)...the list goes on and on. MGS1 was amazing because it implemented those cliches well. MGS2...not so much. But the point still holds true.

Secondly, Final Fantasy VII [i]didn't[/i] use the better cliches. Emo angst blonde kids aren't the better cliches. Undead gunfighters aren't the better cliches. Emo angst-driven love triangles aren't the better cliches. Mr. T is a good cliche only when it's actually Mr. T.

Am I saying FFVII is a bad game? No. It does certain things really well. It's just that story and characters aren't two of them. What FFVII is known for--and what it did for the industry--is cinematic presentation.

[Shinmaru]

[quote name='Papa Smurf]Talking about impact of games, though I think it's kind of silly to bring up the impact, considering that FFVII's only impact had nothing to do with characters. FFVII's impact was on [i]presentation[/i']. Nothing more.[/quote]

I'm guessing that you're speaking on a gameplay-only basis (your OoT/Z-Targeting example implies that, at least lol), because that certainly isn't the only impact that FFVII had on gaming. FFVII greatly expanded the market for RPGs in America. Before 1997, most RPGs sold in the States never became much more than cult hits if they were lucky (previous Final Fantasy titles included). The best sold well enough, but they were stuck in that RPG niche. FFVII broke out of that niche, sold MASSIVELY, and introduced a ton of casual gamers to RPGs. Frankly, I'd say that nearly every RPG that sells well today in America has FFVII to thank for its success.

I agree with you about everything else regarding FFVII though. It's a very important game in the history of video games, but there are definitely better RPGs out there.

And Smash Bros. Melee still rocks, by the way. I had a little Smash Bros. party with a few friends over the weekend, and we had a hell of a time. I can't wait until Smash Bros. Brawl comes out. :)

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=Papa Smurf]

That's why A-Team was so awesome; because they managed to make the cliched main characters fun to watch. Plus, they had Mr. T bling-d out, cracking skulls, and an old, graying white guy who wasn't afraid of anything and would just run right into a bunch of terrorists. Even the idea of the A-Team itself was a cliche: ex-cons on the run who form their own crime-fighting unit. It was a live-action cartoon.
[/QUOTE]


Firstly, calm the hell down. You seem to take discussions so frigging personally and you speak with so much angst. I'm trying to discuss my opinion, not shoot at you.

Secondly, with regards to Mr. T. Do you believe Mr. T was merely like that as B.A Barrachus? His entire life, by your standards, would be a cliche of some sort then. Mr. T is still like that today, albeit without the bling. He remained B.A with his bloody 'rap' song.

I'm going to drift away from this whole 'cliche' discussion as Boo requested. However, I will leave this 'debate' with this one note. Every person I have ever spoken to about this game has strongly supported FFVII and stated that it had a brilliant story.

I don't care, just as you don't care for the emotional attachment I had with this game, if you feel the story and characters are cliches. In my opinion, I feel that many games today expand upon the basic cliche that FFVII was and other games that FFVII was a cliche of. I absolutely loved the story, and I know many others did.

Take Kingdom Hearts for example. I couldn't quite get into the storyline (pretty much because it bored me senseless) but many loved it. I respect that. I feel the problem with games today is that too many people analyse them rather than just take them for what they are and enjoy that.

I respect your opinion and arguments Papa Smurf. And what I meant by doing the research is just what Shinmaru stated.

Therefore, I'm not going to continue and start to get heated on the topic, perhaps I shouldn't have said anything at all. I loved the story, to me it continues to remain strong for me and I disregard its cliches. Respect that.

[Papa Smurf]

Then again, Shin, I think the success there also had more to do with the presentation than anything else. FFVII wasn't just another SNES game. It was the first next-gen Final Fantasy title, appearing on the then brand-new PSX, a CD-based format that could support the type of game Square was looking to make. FFVII was going to be a cinematic tour-de-force, with a presentation previously unseen in the genre. CG movie clips, 3D backgrounds, sweeping cinematography, dynamic orchestrated music, and so on. The game was truly the first cinematic RPG. I don't think the story is what attracted people.

It was the presentation where FFVII had the impact. The presentation set the bar for following games. The story, however, didn't, especially when we have Edgar, Sabin, and Locke from FFVI, who are total screwballs and act like a twisted, royal version of the Marx Brothers.

[quote name='Zidargh']Firstly, calm the hell down. You seem to take discussions so frigging personally and you speak with so much angst. I'm trying to discuss my opinion, not shoot at you.[/quote]
Dude, what are you on? There was nothing in quoted portion of my post that even implied I was taking things personally or speaking with "so much angst." If you can't see how much I was enjoying talking about the A-Team, then you're either blind or looking for something to moan about. lol

[quote]Secondly, with regards to Mr. T. Do you believe Mr. T was merely like that as B.A Barrachus? His entire life, by your standards, would be a cliche of some sort then. Mr. T is still like that today, albeit without the bling. He remained B.A with his bloody 'rap' song.[/quote]
Uh, hence...[quote name='Papa Smurf']Mr. T is a good cliche only when it's actually Mr. T.[/quote]
[quote]However, I will leave this 'debate' with this one note. Every person I have ever spoken to about this game has strongly supported FFVII and stated that it had a brilliant story.

I don't care, just as you don't care for the emotional attachment I had with this game, if you feel the story and characters are cliches.[/quote]
Dude, [i]what[/i] emotional attachment? lol. What, like what happened to Aeris? Or Zack's backstory? Vincent? Barret? Tifa? Sephiroth? None of those characters ever had enough time to develop. Aeris was a flower girl, nothing more. She was two-dimensional the entire time. The Zack/Cloud history relied on a backstory/flashback that was only activated IF you happened to stumble into the correct room in Nibelheim. Vincent is Frankenstein without Mary Shelley powering his character. Barret is a clumsily written Mr. T. Tifa, a boring childhood sweetheart. Sephiroth takes on an Oedipal complex but possesses nowhere near the style and flair of the original play. Where's an emotional attachment to any of them?

[quote]In my opinion, I feel that many games today expand upon the basic cliche that FFVII was and other games that FFVII was a cliche of. I absolutely loved the story, and I know many others did.[/quote]
You do realize that FFVII was pre-dated by about...2500 years of literary history? It's not only games coming before FFVII...or FFVII being a "cliche of" other games. It's a matter of FFVII being a cliche in and of itself.

[quote]I respect your opinion and arguments Papa Smurf. And what I meant by doing the research is just what Shinmaru stated.[/quote]
Yeah. The research even points to what I'm saying. Final Fantasy VII was widely embraced not because of the story, but because of the presentation. The story and characters were way better in FFVI (even Kefka>>>Sephiroth, because Kefka's insane and he loves it), so obviously there was something other than the story to get casual gamers interested in FFVII.

[Dagger]

[QUOTE=Papa Smurf]
Where's an emotional attachment to any of them?[/QUOTE]
Er... that's kind of an odd question to ask, haha. Emotions =/= logic. You can argue all you like that FFVII has flat characters, and I doubt anyone here would be able to prove otherwise, but all the arguing in the world isn't going to make anyone go, "Jeez, you're absolutely right. I now understand that my irrational obsession with Sephiroth stemmed from the fact that I never experienced the full glory of the original Oedipus Rex." They'll just get riled up and go to extreme and even illogical lengths to defend the character(s) they love. Why? Because there's an emotional attachment--which is something that has very little to do with a character's realism and complexity or total lack thereof. And it just keeps going in circles from there.

~Dagger~

[Zidargh]

[QUOTE=Dagger]Er... that's kind of an odd question to ask, haha. Emotions =/= logic. You can argue all you like that FFVII has flat characters, and I doubt anyone here would be able to prove otherwise, but all the arguing in the world isn't going to make anyone go, "Jeez, you're absolutely right. I now understand that my irrational obsession with Sephiroth stemmed from the fact that I never experienced the full glory of the original Oedipus Rex." They'll just get riled up and go to extreme and even illogical lengths to defend the character(s) they love. Why? Because there's an emotional attachment--which is something that has very little to do with a character's realism and complexity or total lack thereof. And it just keeps going in circles from there.

~Dagger~[/QUOTE]

I agree, which is why I think the argument's pointless. Either way, it doesn't matter what people say to me, or others who found some kind of bond with the game, it being a 'cliche in and itself' really doesn't matter at all.

Perhaps in a sense, I took upon my own perspective of the game which is where I filled in the gaps of FFVII's storyline. (I wholeheartedly agree with you Papa Smurf with regards to the loopholes and lack of development time of characters. However, I only really notice them in retrospect. I think that back then I was just entranced by this type if game, none of these flaws seemed to matter. For example, I only really think about that 1/24[or whatever] Shinra collectible soldier side-quest.)

I apologise if it seemed like I was attacking anyone's arguments, I was merely trying to put across my emotional attachment to it. I know many others feel the same but in my 9 year old state, FFVII offered me so much. It's only now that I'm 18 and much more cynical, do I begin to pick holes in it.

As Dagger said, this will continue to go round in circles. Looking back, Aeris was actually incredilbly flat, but (is this even a spoiler today? lol) [spoiler]when she was killed, I was actually brought to tears.[/spoiler] As pathetic as that sounds.

Jeez, I've just defended and wore my heart on a sleeve over a [i]game[/i]. Well hey, thankya' for letting me feel like a kid again, lol. (That wasn't sarcasm.)

[James]

[font=arial]I don't think it's unusual that you had such an emotional response to FFVII, Zid. I certainly did. And so did millions of others. That doesn't make us crazy, it simply means that the game did something right.

I would agree that Final Fantasy VII isn't the [i]best[/i] RPG, but it's certainly a great one. Despite any perceived loopholes in plot, the story was nevertheless good enough to push the game along (I certainly never felt bored by the game's plot, which is not something I can say for various other games).

Gameplay-wise...well, it was a fairly basic game. It didn't re-invent the wheel. But even some of the greatest RPGs of all time have been games that haven't re-invented the wheel either.

A lot of the game's appeal was related to presentation, but this isn't necessarily a bad thing. These aspects haven't aged well, but I think if one ignores the work and artistry that went into FFVII...it's kind of a shame, especially given the game's impact on RPGs in general.

As for defending characters...I agree with Dagger. It's an emotional thing. Final Fantasy VII can objectively be looked at for its achievements, but character preferences are largely personal. Some people really loved Aeris, but I was always annoyed by her...in fact, she was one of my most disliked characters in the game. lol[/font]

[Papa Smurf]

Ah, and here is where Retro gaming gets really interesting, because it [i]is[/i] entirely possible to logically explain why someone develops an emotional attachment to certain characters. Zidargh just hit one explanation: that he was too young to notice the problems with the game.

A second way to explain emotional attachment to characters is straight-up character analysis.

I notice that I keep bringing up MGS here, but apart from a few quibbles with the writing, MGS1 on PSX is one of the best games ever made, particularly with regards to the characters.

We can absolutely logically explain why we're so sad when Psycho Mantis dies: because his humanity is finally revealed. It's like a Darth Vader moment, actually. Here you had this absolute monster of a creature who lacked compassion and engaged in brutally cruel interrogation methods (Psycho Mantis' methods were second only to Revolver Ocelot) and throughout the game, he tormented Snake. But when all is said and done, he's just as tortured a soul as Snake, Otacon, or Meryl is. When his mask was removed, his final wall fell and then he was finally ready to die...and he even helps Snake and Meryl. Totally tragic and noble at the same time. You just didn't see anything like that in FFVII.

Sniper Wolf, another great example. Her entire death scene was tragically sad. She lived her life alone, even within FoxHound. Her sniper rifle was her only family; she loved the dogs, and they absolutely loved her (their affectionate response to her handkerchief) but she could never be part of the pack. When Snake puts her out of her misery, he does it like he's shooting a dying animal...and he is. Sniper Wolf is a villain, but only by definition. She's almost a tragic hero.

Vulcan Raven. In MGS, the ravens were shown to be scavengers. Vulcan Raven is anything but a scavenger. He's a predator. His boss fight reflects this. Where all of the other boss fights in the game were pretty evenly matched and straightforward, this boss fight is totally cat-and-mouse...or raven-and-snake (*rimshot*). If you make a mistake during this battle, you'll pay for it dearly, much moreso than you would during any other fight, sans maybe the final few stages involving Metal Gear REX. But even as brutal and dominating as Raven is, he is still a warrior, and as such, there is still a creed he follows. He fights Snake as an equal, despite the obvious physical advantages. And when Snake bests him in combat, Raven acknowledges Snake's skill. True warrior. And a rather noble villain if you ask me.

Gray Fox. Anyone who's played MGS knows everything I'd say about him, so I'll just say that he represents the past. This is why a line like "I-i-it's a ghost!" is so clever. The camo suit definitely makes him look like a ghost, but the real fun of such a line is that it's a commentary on his character. And what happens at the end of the game? Gray Fox redeems himself. Throughout the game, he's been holding onto the past (his fight with Snake, "Make me feel it. Make me feel alive again."). Now he finally lets go, which is one of the dominant themes of MGS; "Choose life, then live!" Naomi tells Snake at the very end of the game.

But what about Revolver Ocelot? He's arrogant, never concedes. He runs away from Snake, defeat, and his past. In MGS2, he's taken on a few new surnames. This isn't coincidence, just like it isn't coincidence regarding what's happened to Liquid Snake.

Both characters come back to antagonize Solid Snake because Ocelot and Liquid are broken men. They have no chance for redemption. In a sense, they're not even full people in MGS1, because they only have one goal in mind. For Ocelot, it's torture. For Liquid, it's revenge. But even though those two are fanatical, they still feel pain. Liquid's quest is all about mending the pain of knowing he isn't a real person, essentially. He can't focus on anything other than his past, and his relation to Solid Snake. He is consumed by the nightmare of the genome project, and in the end, is consumed by it through FoxDie, for which Snake was the delivery agent.

You could focus on just one of these characters and easily write a seven page paper on them. Metal Gear Solid itself can easily become a forty page paper.

With Final Fantasy VII, you'd be lucky to get a few pages out of Sephiroth. It's basically "minor Oedipus complex" and you're done. You'd barely get a page on any of the other characters.

[James]

[font=arial]I think you're essentially right, Alex. But not everything is a complex character study.

When I first played Final Fantasy VII, I definitely noticed flaws. But the game had its charm - there were subtler reasons to form an attachment to the characters...simpler reasons.

I think that nostalgia tends to cloud judgement, which is why people tend to go back and re-play a game and realize "Hey, this isn't as good as I remember". So that whole aspect is definitely true

On the other hand, Final Fantasy VII is a classic for more reasons than its story alone.[/font]

[DeadSeraphim]

[COLOR=Indigo][SIZE=1][FONT=Arial][quote name='Papa Smurf']With Final Fantasy VII, you'd be lucky to get a few pages out of Sephiroth. It's basically "minor Oedipus complex" and you're done. You'd barely get a page on any of the other characters.[/quote]
I don't see what you expect, really. You're holding FFVII up to standards that few games ever actually reach, and you're discounting the fact that FFVII [i]was[/i] a lot of people's original RPG and as such they love it anyway. Besides which, newsflash: It's a videogame, not Shakespeare. I don't see how you can honestly expect Shakespearean characters out of any but the most intricate of games (like MGS, as stated).

The characters are cliche? Okay. MGS is so much better, OMG? Yes, we get it. All the rhetoric in the world isn't going to make people not love the characters, though, especially when the gameplay [i]was[/i] very solid and the plot was pretty interesting (even if it was cliche, it was still memorable). It's okay if you don't like FFVII and it doesn't reach your massive standards man (and really, those standards are gargantuan), but don't expect the world to follow suit because you can break down character motives. :p [/FONT][/SIZE][/COLOR]

[James]

[font=arial]I personally feel that the sales actually speak a lot with this sort of thing. High sales do not always make a good game, but high sales indicate popularity. Games that have been immensely popular (and have influenced many others), could surely be defined as "classics". So I suppose that would be my angle if I were talking to someone who simply disliked FFVII.

I actually haven't played a Final Fantasy game for a long time though...the last one I played was FFX, which I felt was average (loved the battle system, disliked the characters and story). FFX-2 seemed very odd, but I haven't played it...I'm really not sure if I'd enjoy it more than the original or not.

In terms of other retro classics, I wonder if Mystical Ninja (Goemon 5) could be included here. I know a few of you are familiar with that game - who else has played it and what are some of your fond memories?[/font]

[John]

[QUOTE=DeadSeraphim][color=Indigo][size=1][font=Arial]
I don't see what you expect, really. You're holding FFVII up to standards that few games ever actually reach, and you're discounting the fact that FFVII [i]was[/i] a lot of people's original RPG and as such they love it anyway. Besides which, newsflash: It's a videogame, not Shakespeare. I don't see how you can honestly expect Shakespearean characters out of any but the most intricate of games (like MGS, as stated).

The characters are cliche? Okay. MGS is so much better, OMG? Yes, we get it. All the rhetoric in the world isn't going to make people not love the characters, though, especially when the gameplay [i]was[/i] very solid and the plot was pretty interesting (even if it was cliche, it was still memorable). It's okay if you don't like FFVII and it doesn't reach your massive standards man (and really, those standards are gargantuan), but don't expect the world to follow suit because you can break down character motives. :p [/font][/size][/color][/QUOTE] He was never attacking the game itself, only the plot and the characters, both of which have become undeservingly popular. If it was the superior gameplay that became so iconic instead of the characters and story (which are much more quantifiable, and at the brass tacks, simply more easy to market), then there never would have been an Advent Children, Dirge of Cerberus, or all the other moneypumps related to the game. But characters are easier for people to engrave into their consciousnesses than something more abstract, like a system of gameplay.

And really, most all characters in any modern fiction are distinctly Shakespearian. Shakespearian characters and situations are, almost by definition, very basic categories of most of the things existing in fiction today. Thus, when a writer (unintentionally) creates a basic, model Shakespearian character and fails to go any further with it, their subconscious is just scraping off the top layer of character devices that society has told them are effective in writing, and is therefore an unsuccessful writer.

[Charles]

The characters themselves were not that bad. In fact, most of them were quite good. The storytelling and translation were just sub par.

Cloud is interesting if you take into account how fragmented his consciousness is; his struggle to assume a genuine identity has a lot of potential too. When you access the flashback where Zach is killed and he essentially becomes Zach, it's quite a revelation. It's just a shame that said scene was merely an afterthought that you had to access by revisiting the mansion.

What I'm getting at is that nearly all the characters have an interesting conflict or back-story that makes them more than flat characters. Even Barret's relationship with Marlene is complex when you take into consideration his relationship with her biological father.

I could go on, but my point is that it's just a shame that so much of the story was poorly translated or too incoherent to really be effective.

[James]

[QUOTE=Charles]
It's just a shame that so much of the story was poorly translated and nearly incoherent to really be effective.[/QUOTE]

[font=arial]I agree with your post - you took the words from my mouth. The big issue was how the story was conveyed.

Luckily the version we received had been cleaned up quite a bit, which probably explains why some PAL gamers have a more positive view of the game.

Nobody answered my Mystical Ninja question yet. :animeswea [/font]

[Kenshin DX]

[quote name='James']In terms of other retro classics, I wonder if Mystical Ninja (Goemon 5) could be included here. I know a few of you are familiar with that game - who else has played it and what are some of your fond memories?[/font][/quote]


Are you refering to the N64 game?

[James]

[quote name='Kenshin DX']Are you refering to the N64 game?[/quote]

[font=arial]Yep. It was one of my favorite third party games on N64. It had certain elements that weren't great, but overall I think it was a very unique and enjoyable game.

I need to go and find out where it is, actually. I think it's still at my parents' house somewhere...hopefully it hasn't been lost. :animesigh [/font]

[Kenshin DX]

[QUOTE=James][font=arial]Yep. It was one of my favorite third party games on N64. It had certain elements that weren't great, but overall I think it was a very unique and enjoyable game.

I need to go and find out where it is, actually. I think it's still at my parents' house somewhere...hopefully it hasn't been lost. :animesigh [/font][/QUOTE]


Ah yes Mystical Ninja for N64 great game. It was like one big mystery game where you'd have to gatehr info to move on . It had great enviroments. Its hard to put your finger on what was so good about the game maybe it was the great looking charcters designs or the giant fighting robot mssions? But it was damn fun scaling mount fuji ,riding on top of a out of control dragon, going into space, and transforming your charcter at will. I loved that game. The anime was horrible as well as the sequel however. How do you take a great 3-D enviroment and turn it into a 2-D side scrolling platformer :animesigh ? I wish the other games made it the states.

Nevertheless its one of my favorite N64 games it was quirky for sure but it was a hell of a lot of fun.