Fate, destiny call it what you will...

[liveinmybubble]

Have you ever noticed weird things happening that you can't explain but they all tie together? like you dream something and then it happens or by accident you go somewhere where you never planed to go and meet someone that you've always wanted to see again?

Does destiny and fate seem to be pulling you? do you believe that there is such a thing as destiny or fate? Yes or No but, please expalin.

[Retribution]

[size=1]There is no such thing as fate or destiny. There is only coincidence. Everything that seems to "tie together" is just happenstance, not the plan of some divine being.

The belief in a destiny or a fate is leads to the excuse for complacency. "If it's my destiny, it'll happen eventually" is a frustrating response to "Why aren't you _____?"

I think people believe in fate or destiny because they are self-fulfilling prophecies. If you believe your destiny is to make $100,000 one day, you will work to make that a reality. Only once you achieve that goal do you attribute it to fate or destiny, despite the fact that your devices alone got you that salary.

Sorry if I confused anyone.[/size]

[Adahn]

[size=2]I don't believe in fate or destiny, but I do believe in blessings. Enough good things have happened to me, without my reaching for them, that I consider them blessings. If I see blessings as a reward for my being good, then it makes me see myself as good, which helps me to improve my own nature. I believe these blessings come from God, but you may see it as a series of fortunate events, if you wish. However, anything bad that happens to me is either a result of my own misdeeds, or a result of random chance.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]My view allows for self-improvement in good circumstances, and allows me to accept responsibility (or unpredictability) for bad circumstances. That doesn't make it any better or worse than anyone else's, but it may make it more beneficial and useful to me, personally.[/size]

[John]

[QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]There is no such thing as fate or destiny. There is only coincidence. Everything that seems to "tie together" is just happenstance, not the plan of some divine being.

The belief in a destiny or a fate is leads to the excuse for complacency. "If it's my destiny, it'll happen eventually" is a frustrating response to "Why aren't you _____?"

I think people believe in fate or destiny because they are self-fulfilling prophecies. If you believe your destiny is to make $100,000 one day, you will work to make that a reality. Only once you achieve that goal do you attribute it to fate or destiny, despite the fact that your devices alone got you that salary.[/size][/QUOTE] I happen to believe in destiny and predestination, and the problem with your argument is that you haven't thought through the situation entirely. You seem to be coming from the idea that once a conclusion is reached, you factor that into your view of the world and let it affect your decisions.

But an important part of destiny is that you can't outthink it, nor would it be possible to know your destiny except in special hypothetical cases where there is 100% certainty that you would comply with that destiny willingly (or unwillingly, as it could be I guess). In any other, normal situation, where you wouldn't know your destiny, then anyone who even believed in the idea of destiny at all would have no logical choice but to behave like it [i]didn't[/i] exist, since their knowledge of it doesn't change its specific outcome. And since the reason humans constantly want to know things is so that they can tweak their internal views and their actions to make a better life for themselves, this unusable knowledge must logically be disregarded from their choices.

Since almost all other knowledge humans gain is used in some way, small or large, this idea isn't usually thought through, and people understandably come to the conclusion that destiny doesn't exist at all.

[Delta]

[COLOR=#35425E]Dreams that actually happen? Yo're talking about déjà vu, right? I guess this article can help: [url=http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/5194382.stm][u]Deja vu recreated in laboratory.[/u][/url] From the way I get it, déjà vu's just a sign that your brain's tripping, in a glitchy Matrix sort of way.

[b]Regarding fate and destiny:[/b]
The concept of destiny works for me. I've always had this gut feeling that I'm set to accomplish something great, like a scientific breakthrough or a world record. There's such a thing as "unfulfilled destiny" in my book; it's what people achieve when they just sit around claiming that Fate will drop their super amazing futures right on their laps.

Unfulfilled destiny = MASSIVE FAIL. That's probably why I feel compelled to work hard and be better than everyone else. I absolutely won't allow myself to die until I fulfill my destiny by my own blood and sweat.[/COLOR]

[Derald]

[FONT=Trebuchet MS][SIZE=1][COLOR=Navy]Honestly, I have made a similar thread in the past, and all I can tell you is that the more time you spend thinking about this, the more time you waste.

When it all comes down to it, there are infinite answers for subjects such as these, with no concrete way of proving them either, and there is no point in wasting your life away just thinking about them.

Just live your life.[/COLOR][/SIZE][/FONT]

[Retribution]

[quote name='John']I happen to believe in destiny and predestination, and the problem with your argument is that you haven't thought through the situation entirely. You seem to be coming from the idea that once a conclusion is reached, you factor that into your view of the world and let it affect your decisions.[/quote]
[size=1]You believe in predestination? Lame. :p

If you believe in destiny, and you want to fulfill whatever you percieve yours to be, you will consciously or subconsciously try to fulfill it. Sure, there are isolated cases that don't stand up to the aforementioned, but you can see this working on the small scale too.

If I think it's my "destiny" to have a higher spelling score on a spelling test, I will study my hardest to fulfill what I believe to be my destiny. It's a self-fulfilled prophecy.

[QUOTE]But an important part of destiny is that you can't outthink it, nor would it be possible to know your destiny except in special hypothetical cases where there is 100% certainty that you would comply with that destiny willingly (or unwillingly, as it could be I guess). In any other, normal situation, where you wouldn't know your destiny, then anyone who even believed in the idea of destiny at all would have no logical choice but to behave like it [i]didn't[/i] exist, since their knowledge of it doesn't change its specific outcome. And since the reason humans constantly want to know things is so that they can tweak their internal views and their actions to make a better life for themselves, this unusable knowledge must logically be disregarded from their choices.[/QUOTE]
I honestly don't understand what you said. Dumb it down for us commoners.

My major problem with predestination, fate, and destiny is as follows. If you have an inescapable fate, do you really have free will? And if you have free will, do you really have a fate? If you have an inescapable fate, then no matter what you do you will end up with the predetermined fate, and therefore no real free will, as all your actions lead up to that end. If you have free will, then your fate cannot be a fixed one, as your future fluctuates with every decision you make.

Again, I give the example of the lazy person. "If I'm predestined to be poor, why even try to work?" This is the self-fulfilling prophecy I'm talking about.

Or maybe the information you gave that I didn't understand debunked everything in this post pre-emptively. Maybe I'm predestined to lose this debate.[/size]

[John]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']You believe in predestination? Lame. :p[/quote] [size=2]You can't believe in destiny and not predestination, that would be contradictory. And I never said I went gung-ho Calvinist about it, either. [img]http://otakuboards.com/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img][/size]

[/size] [QUOTE][size=1]If you believe in destiny, and you want to fulfill whatever you percieve yours to be, you will consciously or subconsciously try to fulfill it. Sure, there are isolated cases that don't stand up to the aforementioned, but you can see this working on the small scale too.

If I think it's my "destiny" to have a higher spelling score on a spelling test, I will study my hardest to fulfill what I believe to be my destiny. It's a self-fulfilled prophecy.[/size][/QUOTE]But that's all based on the idea that you actually [i]do[/i] know your destiny, when really, you can't in any way short of divine intervention. What people [i]think[/i] their destiny is has nothing to do with what it really is. If you think your destiny is to ace a spelling test, and you study hard in order to fulfill it, then yeah you'll have fulfilled your destiny from a human perspective. But on the other hand, if your objective destiny--your [i]actual[/i] destiny, not viewed from just a human perspective--was indeed to ace the spelling test, then the fact that you did it had nothing to do with your own perception of that destiny. It's essentially just a coincidence that yourperceived destiny matched up with your objective destiny. Or, to confuse you, you were [i]destined[/i] to believe that your destiny was to ace the spelling test. :P
[size=1]
[/size] [QUOTE][size=1]My major problem with predestination, fate, and destiny is as follows. If you have an inescapable fate, do you really have free will? And if you have free will, do you really have a fate? If you have an inescapable fate, then no matter what you do you will end up with the predetermined fate, and therefore no real free will, as all your actions lead up to that end. If you have free will, then your fate cannot be a fixed one, as your future fluctuates with every decision you make.[/size][/QUOTE] Fate and human free will can coexist because of man's inability to know his fate. If one doesn't know their fate, then they still have an illusion of choice in the actions that they want to take, and man doesn't need real actual choices (which, by what I've stated, don't actually exist anyway) on which to exercise his free will, because the illusion will suffice. And that's the most important thing to realize regarding free will.

This illusion is one that can be dissipated in one way, and that, obviously, is to [i]know[/i] your destiny. Thus meaning, knowing your destiny is the only possible way to not have free will. And, judging on the basis of human nature, a person can only know their destiny if that destiny happens to follow a strict set of stipulations. These stipulations would require that the destiny be one that a human would willingly adhere to if he knew what it was (because remember, we gots da free will), or it be one that a human would not be able to change even if he wanted to (and if you think about it for a sec, you'll realize that this is the less likely option of the two). If a man knew his destiny, and it was a destiny that he wanted to and was able to defy, then he would, and that would mean that that couldn't have been his destiny in the first place. So that situation contradicts itself and can therefore never happen.

And so, as you can imagine, there aren't many specific situations in which man could know his destiny, but all of those situations result in man having no control over what he can do or even think, and thus his free will ceases to exist.

So in conclusion, the choices a man has are simply illusions, emerging from outside man's perspective, but his free will comes as a reaction to those choices, emerging from within man's perspective, and therefore [i]does[/i] exist as a reality. That's as simple as I can make it, I think. D:

[Retribution]

[quote name='John][size=2]You can't believe in destiny and not predestination, that would be contradictory. And I never said I went gung-ho Calvinist about it, either. [img]http://otakuboards.com/images/smilies/wink.gif[/img'][/size][/quote]
[size=1]If you were Calvinist, I'd send you threatening PMs. ;)

[QUOTE][size=2]Fate and human free will can coexist because of man's inability to know his fate. If one doesn't know their fate, then they still have an illusion of choice in the actions that they want to take, and man doesn't need real actual choices (which, by what I've stated, don't actually exist anyway) on which to exercise his free will, because the illusion will suffice. And that's the most important thing to realize regarding free will.[/size][/QUOTE]
So free will does not exist, only the illusion of it? Isn't that an excuse for mediocrity and complacency? One could never really try at anything in life because they "don't have free will to choose otherwise," in other words, "whatever happens is part of a predetermined plan in which I have no say in, so why bother?"

I just can't stand to think that ones life remains on a pre-plotted path from which you cannot deviate.[/size]

[Raina]

[COLOR=Blue]
I'm not really sure what to believe...

I mean, if everything were to happen for a reason, why do we have free will?
If everything is predestined, are the choices we make already been made for us? If so, what is the point of individualism?
If you could see the future in your dreams, wouldn't that be a boring life? Or maybe even a perfect life? Or because you see the future, you don't make any mistakes in life, and you do live a perfect life, wouldn't that be boring as well?

But doesn't some things occur that make you want to believe in faith or destiny?

I guess what I'm trying to say is, there may be somethings that are faith, destiny or predestined, but may be those are just there to give us a nodge. To give us the courage to follow our dreams, live our lives...

[/COLOR]

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]Do I believe in fate/destiny? No. In fact my opinion on the subject pretty much mirrors what Retribution is saying. Because if such a thing really did exist it would mean my every thought and action was already determined before I made them. And ironically from a religious standpoint it contradicts some of what those of the religion here in Utah believe. And by that I'm reffering to the LDS/Mormon Church. To them God put us here and gave us the free will to make choices so that we could make our own mistakes and therefore learn and grow spiritually. So why would he then turn around and bind us with fate/destiny? What would be the point if we really couldn?t make any of our own choices? We wouldn?t be learning anything or growing spiritually for that matter. Now I don?t believe in religion either, I just find it amusing that on this issue, our opinion is the same. ;)[/COLOR]

[Drix D'Zanth]

On the issue that you can "prove" something that doesn't exist- I have a joke for you.

There once were two men sitting on a bus. One man was taking paper from a notebook, crumpling it up, and throwing it out the bus window. The other man inquired, "Why are you throwing out all of that paper?" The first replied, "I'm warding off the elephants that would chase our bus, of course." The second remarked, "I don't see any elephants".

So the first man turns to him and with a wink says, "That's because it's working."

The moral of the story:
It's logically impossible to prove the nonexistence of something.

Who's to say it's not your destiny to know of destiny which would effect how your actions respond to the knowledge of destiny? The idea of destiny merely states that something is going to happen in the exactly how it will. I know that sounds circular and all, but there are broad theories of reality that evoke this imagery of circularity. Think about the Big Bang. There's a school of thought that hypothesizes we are just one of an infinite number of Big Bangs, expansions, contractions, and a new Big Bang. From that, we may draw the idea that (Entropy withstanding) the universe is the EXACT same now as it was an infinite number of times in the past. If that is so, then we are doing the exact same thing we've done now in an analogous frame of reference an infinite number of times in the past as well. Including thought, witch is theoretically explained by natural phenomena, and any social interaction. I think the only wrench in that theory comes with the challenge of the "epiphany".

Do I believe in predestination? No. But I'll give it credit, it's very fascinating.

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

Do I believe in fate or destiny, the short answer is no, the long answer... well I guess that's a "no" again. I believe in God, and I believe that He does influence events in my life, but overall control as to what happens rests in my own hands, if I don't have a good day school wise, it may be because I didn't study hard enough, if I get sick it's because I picked it up off someone else. Mankind was given the burden of choice, to make our own decisions and either pay the consequences or reap the rewards for our decisions, therefore it is illogical to assume he directs ever aspect of my life, as that would void my ability to make decisions.

If Alex [Retri] happens to be reading this, please don't go dissecting my post to try and draw me into one of your pointless atheist versus faithful debates, at this stage, it's getting ridiculous.[/SIZE]

[musical_kitten]

[quote name='liveinmybubble']like you dream something and then it happens?[/quote]
I personally have no clue if that happens cause all my dreams seem to mix with reality until I have no clue if a past event is something I dreamed or something that actually happened.

[quote name='Retribution']There is no such thing as fate or destiny. There is only coincidence.[/quote]

And didn't Yuuko say that in Tsubasa?

[Retribution]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1]If Alex [Retri'] happens to be reading this, please don't go dissecting my post to try and draw me into one of your pointless atheist versus faithful debates, at this stage, it's getting ridiculous.[/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Do I deserve this? I don't think I've been hammering the atheist versus faithful point here at all, certainly not to the point of ridiculousness. To be honest I agree with a great deal of your post.

[quote name='musical_kitten']And didn't Yuuko say that in Tsubasa?[/quote]
I honestly have no idea.[/size]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1']Do I deserve this? I don't think I've been hammering the atheist versus faithful point here at all, certainly not to the point of ridiculousness. To be honest I agree with a great deal of your post.[/size][/quote]

[SIZE=1]I'm not talking about this thread in particular, I'm talking about previous threads that have a religious aspect where you and I seem to clash over points, and then dissect one another's replies to claim some kind of verbal victory. My original statement came out a bit blunt, sorry about that, it's just I don't have the time to really go through the whole thing, it's fun sometimes as you're very articulate with your points, but in the end we both know the other isn't going to change, so why keep going was my point.[/SIZE]

[DeadSeraphim]

[QUOTE=Adahn][size=2]I don't believe in fate or destiny, but I do believe in blessings. Enough good things have happened to me, without my reaching for them, that I consider them blessings. If I see blessings as a reward for my being good, then it makes me see myself as good, which helps me to improve my own nature. I believe these blessings come from God, but you may see it as a series of fortunate events, if you wish. However, anything bad that happens to me is either a result of my own misdeeds, or a result of random chance.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]My view allows for self-improvement in good circumstances, and allows me to accept responsibility (or unpredictability) for bad circumstances. That doesn't make it any better or worse than anyone else's, but it may make it more beneficial and useful to me, personally.[/size][/QUOTE]
[size=1][color=indigo][font=arial]I agree with you, completely.[/font][/color][/size]

[Adahn]

[size=2]Well, my beliefs still stand strong, but I thought of something you may find interesting. In this case, I'm going to ignore the possibility of a higher being.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Before life existed, there was matter, space, time, and energy. All things that happened were a result of they physicality of these things, and existence consisted of a series of reactions. These reactions eventually lead to life, and to humans. We have a will to change things. Our actions no longer consist entirely of physical reactions. We can take action for any reason we choose, and with us comes the end of the physical destinies of all things. We are the destroyers of fate, isolated in our own pocket of the universe, while the rest of existence continues its destined, fated path.[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]OR[/size]
[size=2][/size]
[size=2]Our every thought, feeling, idea, and decision has a physical manifestation. We are incredibly complex, but still creatures of matter, occupying space, guided by time, and subject to transformation into energy. Despite our overwhelming complexity, we are still bound by physicality. Our every action truly is a reaction, only infinitely more complex. Our fate and destiny were decided at the beginning of time, and we will continue along our destined path until time's end. Every choice we make is bound to this, even the realization that we have no choice in anything is just another step that we were destined to take. Changing our decisions as randomly and with as much insanity as possible still leads us to make some decision, and it is that decision we were always meant to make.[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=seagreen]I agree with both Retribution and indifference. I don?t believe in fate or destiny. I don?t think there is something out there that has already determined each and every action that will ever happen. Nor do I think some divine presence is responsible for putting me here either. Mostly because I tend to believe more in things that I can see or that have been proven. And like indifference said, I was taught in church, well when I use to go that is, that we were given free will to make our own choices, so if that?s true it wouldn?t make any sense to turn around and then take that choice away by binding us with fate and destiny. But then I don?t believe in religion so perhaps it?s the fate and destiny that is real. ^_~ Overall I?m not going to lose any sleep over it. It either exists or it doesn?t and nothing I say or do will change that. [/COLOR]

[Tatsubei Yagyu]

[COLOR=Navy][FONT=Comic Sans MS]Eh...I guess in the end we wouldn't really know if we have control, or are pulled along automatic tracks with invisable strings tied to us.

I'd like to think that I have complete control over at the very least my own actions. I wouldn't like to know that I was fated to totally screw myself over at thing, or with someone. But even if that were the case, I don't think it'd change anything for me.

...hmmm...eh, why bother. :animesigh [/FONT][/COLOR]

[John]

[quote name='Gavin][size=1']I'm not talking about this thread in particular, I'm talking about previous threads that have a religious aspect where you and I seem to clash over points, and then dissect one another's replies to claim some kind of verbal victory. My original statement came out a bit blunt, sorry about that, it's just I don't have the time to really go through the whole thing, it's fun sometimes as you're very articulate with your points, but in the end we both know the other isn't going to change, so why keep going was my point.[/size][/quote] The real point is that nobody had [i]started[/i] going yet. Don't serve the sentence until someone's committed the crime. [img]http://otakuboards.com/images/smilies/tongue.gif[/img]

[quote name='Retribution][size=1'] So free will does not exist, only the illusion of it?[/size][/quote] Wrong-o. Free will [i]does[/i] exist, but the choices we exercise it on, if we're assuming the existence of destiny, do not. Like I said before, those choices are illusions because in objective reality, free of human perspective, they're going to happen one specific, quantifiable way. Humans, however, don't know how they're going to happen, so we're under the false impression that we have some sort of ability to determine the future with our actions. Of course we actually can't, but that guise of choice still provides the opportunity for free will to exist, because we don't know what our destiny is, and hell, we have to do [i]something[/i].

And in that way, free will and a set fate can coexist. I think the problem most people have with that comes from the idea that free will entails randomness and unpredictability, when it doesn't at all.

EDIT: As an afterthought, anyone who won't do anything because they think it's their destiny is fooling themselves. Since we don't know our destiny, it can be viewed from our perspective that we [i]do[/i] make our destinies, even though we most certainly don't. Thus meaning, in this case, people should actually defy normal logical thinking and ignore destiny (when it comes to most of the decisions they make in life, anyway), even if they believe it's there. That was a point I made towards the end of my first post, in more detail.