Congress Passes Detainee Interrogation Bill

[Retribution]

[size=1][url=http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/chi-0609280159sep28,1,142538.story?coll=chi-newsnationworld-hed&ctrack=1&cset=true][b]Full article here.[/b][/url]

I'm not sure if everyone has been following the news as of late, but the US Congress just passed a bill that redefines Common Article 3. I must say, I'm slightly shocked someone hasn't posted a thread on it.

[quote name='Chicago Tribune']The bill shields U.S. officials from prosecution under the War Crimes Act retroactively to 1997, when the original law was passed criminalizing violations of Common Article 3 of the Geneva Conventions.[/quote]

Personally, I think this a disgusting move made by the President. The passing of this legislation speaks volumes about our President -- immunity from the War Crimes Act, as well as the ability to basically torture detainees to obtain confessions.

Well, I'll shut up for now. What does everyone think about it?[/size]

[eleanor]

[color=dimgray] I think it's just another sign that the executive branch of our government is gaining too much control. Considering everything that is going on, it's not surprising, but that doesn't excuse any injustice. It's a foul move made by Bush, and another reason I'm glad he'll be out of office next year.[/color]

[vegeta rocker]

I agree with Lunox, i think the idea of checks and balances has been wiped from the President's dictionary.

Then again it was never very vast to begin with.

;)

[Gavin]

[SIZE=1]Interesting, most interesting.

[url]http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060929/ap_on_go_co/congress_terrorism[/url]

The link you provided Alex doesn't seem to be working, or rather it asks for you to Log In or Register. In response to the actual article, I can only be very grateful that I'm not a terror suspect being held by the United States. The whole feel of this Bill is one of "ends justify the means" and while I completely oppose torturing suspects or using coerced evidence in a military court, what I find most disturbing however is the fact that President Bush is now free to "interpret" the Third Gevena Convention, despite the fact that it seems relatively straight forward in it's current incarnation.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Geneva_Convention[/url]

Perhaps this is simply a political ploy for the Republican Party to gain voters by looking tough on terrorists, perhaps not. In the current climate of fear perpetuated throughout the world, I have to wonder whether sacrificing some of our high morals in order to achieve results in the so-called "War on Terror" is something we can learn to live with. Often these kinds of Bills/Laws enter quickly and take years to get rid of when their validity/legality is called into question.[/SIZE]

[only1specialed]

im sorry but i dont agree with that. im glad that some of those detanees were tortured do you think they care about me and my men when we get captured in iraq. remeber the beheading videos they sent out. so what if some of them get torture. that way we get the information we need to help get key people and help us survive. now if these "terrorist" were to follow the geneva conventions like we are forced then yes thats wrong but they dont and thats why its easier for them to attack us than it is for us to attack them. what really pisses me off is that news of those secret holding cells became public cause now the terrorist can use that for their recruiting campaign... you guys probably wont see it from my oint of view but after being in the military for a while you look at things differently.....sorry im just ranting now

[Sandy]

[quote name='only1specialed']im sorry but i dont agree with that. im glad that some of those detanees were tortured do you think they care about me and my men when we get captured in iraq. remeber the beheading videos they sent out. so what if some of them get torture. that way we get the information we need to help get key people and help us survive. now if these "terrorist" were to follow the geneva conventions like we are forced then yes thats wrong but they dont and thats why its easier for them to attack us than it is for us to attack them.[/quote]

But how can you tell if [I]all[/I] of these people arrested have anything to do with the terrorist organizations? It's been proven that many of those brought to Guantanamo and Abu Graib (spelling?) had in fact nothing to do with Al Qaida or the likes, but were just common civilizians captured "just in case".

I don't know about you, but my conscience would not bare to torture a completely innocent person, just to make sure he isn't a terrorist. It's looking like the witch hunt is on all over again - you'll be tortured until you confess, no matter what the truth is.

As a humanist and a pacifist, I'm apalled that a "civilized" nation is sinking into their enemy's level. Eye for an eye, eh?

[Gavin]

[quote name='only1specialed']im sorry but i dont agree with that. im glad that some of those detanees were tortured do you think they care about me and my men when we get captured in iraq. remeber the beheading videos they sent out. so what if some of them get torture. that way we get the information we need to help get key people and help us survive. now if these "terrorist" were to follow the geneva conventions like we are forced then yes thats wrong but they dont and thats why its easier for them to attack us than it is for us to attack them. what really pisses me off is that news of those secret holding cells became public cause now the terrorist can use that for their recruiting campaign... you guys probably wont see it from my oint of view but after being in the military for a while you look at things differently.....sorry im just ranting now[/quote]

[SIZE=1]No offence only1specialied, but you're not the only one here to have served or have family who haved served in a nations armed forces. Three of my outer-family are currently members of the Irish Defense Force, two of whom served as peace-keepers for the U.N. and when the news of the torture of Iraqi's by American forces came to light they were just as sickened as I was. In their mind, the fact that they'd fought "the good fight" as they like to call it, it is even more offensive to them to torture these people for information, especially given the number of truth serums/agents that have been developed.

And besides, Abu Ghraib was a big enough recruiting campaign for Islamic terrorists, so I don't think these "torture sessions" are going to make much of a difference.[/SIZE]

[SunfallE]

[COLOR=RoyalBlue][QUOTE=Retribution][size=1]I'm not sure if everyone has been following the news as of late, but the US Congress just passed a bill that redefines Common Article 3. I must say, I'm slightly shocked someone hasn't posted a thread on it.

Personally, I think this a disgusting move made by the President. The passing of this legislation speaks volumes about our President -- immunity from the War Crimes Act, as well as the ability to basically torture detainees to obtain confessions.[/size][/QUOTE]Yeah I know about it and I?m not thrilled about it. Quite frankly it disgusts me that they did it. I just can?t see a reason for torturing prisoners. As for it speaking volumes about our President, I was already less than thrilled with his performance. I didn?t vote for him and the longer he?s been the president, the more I?ve been disappointed in his performance. I just hope the next president has the sense to undo some of the damage the fool has done. [quote name='only1specialed']im sorry but i dont agree with that. im glad that some of those detanees were tortured do you think they care about me and my men when we get captured in iraq. remeber the beheading videos they sent out. so what if some of them get torture. that way we get the information we need to help get key people and help us survive. now if these "terrorist" were to follow the geneva conventions like we are forced then yes thats wrong but they dont and thats why its easier for them to attack us than it is for us to attack them. what really pisses me off is that news of those secret holding cells became public cause now the terrorist can use that for their recruiting campaign... you guys probably wont see it from my oint of view but after being in the military for a while you look at things differently.....sorry im just ranting now[/quote]Other?s have already mentioned this, but you are overlooking one critical factor here, many of the people detained have absolutely nothing to do with terrorism. I can guarantee you that if it was you or someone you know being held and tortured you would not feel the same. It?s easy to think that when they grab someone and detain them that they didn?t make a mistake and grab someone innocent.

To give you an example, there is a list of people who they won?t allow to fly on airplanes just because some dumb terrorist has used that name as an alias. Net result, one of my friends, who by the way has lived in Utah his whole life, can?t fly because every time he tries his name pulls up a red flag and they refuse to let him on the plane because he just might be a terrorist. o_O By passing this law, next they are saying it?s okay to take him and torture him just because he might be a terrorist because he has the same name as an alias of one.

My point is that this law is full of holes that will hurt innocent people and not just terrorists. The Geneva convention exists for a reason, and part of that reason I would imagine is to protect those who are innocent of wrong doing.

As for claiming being in the military gives you a different point of view, for some perhaps, but I too have members and relatives of my family in the military, and like me and others, they are disgusted by what the president has done. They don?t see it as right but rather as a sign that the government has too much control. And if you want to talk about being in the military affecting you, several of my relatives, based on the age you posted in your profile, have served longer than you have even been alive. So they?ve been around for quite a while and seen a lot while serving in the military and yet they still think what the president has done is wrong.

Anyway, I too am glad that this moron will soon be out of office. In my opinion, he?s one of the worst presidents we?ve ever had. [/COLOR]

[Dodeca]

[SIZE=1]He's giving himself the freedom to interpret international law?

Who does he think he is, really? If any other nation not on his buddy list tried to bypass the War Crimes/Human Rights Act, he'd try to get every other UN member on their ***.

As far as I'm concerned, if the UN doesn't intervene and smack him down, it's not doing its job. Period.

[COLOR=DimGray][They [I]are[/I] allowed to 'smack him down', aren't they?][/COLOR][/SIZE]

[Aaryanna_Mom]

I don?t even know where to begin when it comes to how much Bush has been a horrible disappointment as a president. It just saddens me that he has sunk to this level by blatantly allowing the torture of suspected terrorists. Such a move can cause nothing but problems. I don?t follow the news as well as I should, but to find out that all along they really have been using torture is sickening. And for them to turn around and alter the law to justify that horrible act instead of apologizing for the horrendous behavior is a betrayal of the American people who choose him as a president. And to those he is suppose to represent.

Bush needs to be removed from office and then tried for the crimes against those people as he knew what was happening and instead of stopping them from breaking the Geneva convention he encouraged it and made it so they won?t be persecuted for doing so. It?s wrong and he knows it. I feel as if he has thrust our nation back into the dark ages with some of his foolish actions.

[Albert Flasher]

[COLOR=Sienna]You know all those pictures with Bush holding his hand in the air with photoshoped Swastikas and other Nazi memorebellia? I'm not convinced they're entirly off the mark anymore.

I'd like to say 'Unbelievable' but, for some reason, I have no trouble believing that this is the kind of thing the Bush Administration would approve of. It's rediculous. Torturing prisoners? What ever happened to the Geneva Convention? What ever happened to being the 'leader of the free world' and those other sound-bites? It seems that, with every bill that passses, the US is becoming more and more of a police state. They can pretty much accuse anyone they don't like of being a 'suspected terrorist' and send him off to rot in Gitmo, and for some reason I don't doubt that Bush and Co will hesitate to do that.

I'm glad that every time we elect and idiot in Canada, we elect a harmless one...[/COLOR]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkOrchid]I think Bush is an idiot. >_< Seems like every time I turn around he?s doing something stupid again. But I would have to say this one tops the rest. It?s just sick that he can even think that using torture is acceptable. It?s wrong. Especially since there are probably people they have detained who are completely innocent. Even if they did confess, when it?s torture, I would imagine that after a while they would say anything to get them to stop. So a confession obtained in that manner is unreliable.

It?s also sickening as he?s turning the US into a police state and all he is doing is making others in the world hate us. It?s frustrating since I and many other Americans had no say in the matter. I know if I had any say I would not have approved of what he has done. I wish he was kicked out now instead of later when his term is up in a year. Who knows what other idiotic decisions he will make that will just cause more problems. [/COLOR]

[vegeta rocker]

Does he even remember what he is protecting anymore?

He damn well isnt protecting our freedom, he took that away himself.

[Albert Flasher]

[QUOTE=vegeta rocker]Does he even remember what he is protecting anymore?

He damn well isnt protecting our freedom, he took that away himself.[/QUOTE]
[COLOR=Sienna]
He know's exactly what he's protecting; the interests of his investors. It's sad when a country has basically become a corporation, but that's the state of things in the upper echelons of power in the world these days.[/COLOR]

[Raiyuu]

[quote name='only1specialed']im sorry but i dont agree with that. im glad that some of those detanees were tortured do you think they care about me and my men when we get captured in iraq...[/quote][FONT=Trebuchet MS]Enough people have pulled apart your argument, only1specialed, but I'm just going to add insult to injury by warning you about your post quality.

I suggest you read our Rules and FAQ, located on the left sidebar, as well as the [thread=52331][u]Otaku Lounge Sticky[/u][/thread]. You need to brush up your spelling, and start using capitalisation, punctuation and paragraphing. This will make your posts easier to read and a little less of an obvious target for ripping to pieces like has been happening here ;)

Also, can we keep the discussion on the specific bill Retri pointed out, rather than descending into generic Bush-bashing, please?

Oh yeah. This line really caught my attention.
[quote name='only1specialed]now if these "terrorist" were to [b]follow the geneva conventions like we are forced[/b'] then yes thats wrong but they dont and thats why its easier for them to attack us than it is for us to attack them.[/quote]Unfortunately the US [b]isn't[/b] following the Geneva Convention. They're using Guantanamo Bay, and replacing the term 'POW' with 'detainee' in order to rip open loopholes in the Convention. And this bill, if I've read it right, effectively means American heads of state can't be punished for breaking the Geneva Convention, so even more human rights violations can be carried out in the name of the War on Terror.

Torture can't be considered an accurate means of information-gathering anyway. I'd probably admit I was a terrorist to, if I was getting electrocuted every time I denied it.[/FONT]

[Gavin]

[quote name='Raiyuu][FONT=Trebuchet MS']Torture can't be considered an accurate means of information-gathering anyway. I'd probably admit I was a terrorist to, if I was getting electrocuted every time I denied it.[/FONT][/quote]

[SIZE=1]Quoted for truth, ask anyone who has any kind of experience with intelligence gathering and they'll tell you torture is one of the least reliable forms to extract information. If you torture someone enough, eventually they'll tell you whatever you want to hear, just so you'll stop torturing them. Disturbingly however, it appears this new bill will allow the use of testimony procured through coercion, which reading through the lines probably means torture.

Despite being a Republican by alignment, I have to say, this is one of those times I'm really sorry that the party retook the White House. Does anyone else notice how George Bush's presidency is mirroring the rise of Chancellor Palpatine's from Star Wars ?[/SIZE]

[Retribution]

[quote name='Gavin][SIZE=1']Despite being a Republican by alignment, I have to say, this is one of those times I'm really sorry that the party retook the White House. Does anyone else notice how George Bush's presidency is mirroring the rise of Chancellor Palpatine's from Star Wars ?[/SIZE][/quote]
[size=1]Which finally proves the point that Bush and Republicans are inherently evil. My powers of logic know no bounds.

I find it sad that my country continues to give the finger to the UN, and equally sad that the UN can't do anything back. They can "strongly disapprove" of our actions, and "highly recommend" that we change, but until they get some teeth, the GOP will continue to do as they please.

Perhaps the Democrats can take back the House of Representatives this time around...[/size]

[Aaryanna]

[COLOR=DarkOrchid][QUOTE=Raiyuu][FONT=Trebuchet MS]Also, can we keep the discussion on the specific bill Retri pointed out, rather than descending into generic Bush-bashing, please?

Oh yeah. This line really caught my attention.
Unfortunately the US [b]isn't[/b] following the Geneva Convention. They're using Guantanamo Bay, and replacing the term 'POW' with 'detainee' in order to rip open loopholes in the Convention. And this bill, if I've read it right, effectively means American heads of state can't be punished for breaking the Geneva Convention, so even more human rights violations can be carried out in the name of the War on Terror.

Torture can't be considered an accurate means of information-gathering anyway. I'd probably admit I was a terrorist to, if I was getting electrocuted every time I denied it.[/FONT][/QUOTE]Awww...But Bush bashing is fun! (kidding) :p

On the topic of the actual bill I think it's sick how it's leaving it open so the people in charge can't be punished for breaking the Geneva Convention. And using torture? That's just sick and wrong. >_< And like you said, after a while you would end up saying what ever they want just to make the pain stop.

I guess the whole thing that bothers me is how they can on any level think hurting another human being like that is okay. The change leaves things open to so much abuse. If the people in power can't be punished, they could have pretty much anyone they want detained and tortured just by saying they think that they might be a terrorist.

I'm sure I'm not the only one who sees the potential for this change to be abused for other political and financial gains. It reminds me of the witch hunts in our past history. I saw a special on it and it was surprisingly easy for someone to claim someone was a witch and have them killed as result. It was amazing how many times those accused of witchcraft often had land or material items that another person wanted.

In it's on way, I see this change as the modern day witch hunt in that they are using the war on terrorism to justify it. And you just know that sooner or later, or perhaps it has already happened, this will be abused and used to harm innocents for other gains and not to stop terrorism. And those stupid people in charge who can?t be punished will get away with it.
[/COLOR]

[Domon]

[SIZE=1]Oi ve. I am totally sickened by this act by the government of the United States. I mean yeah, I'm a citizen and such but I am sickened that our president is actually passed a bill saying "hey look at us! we don't have to obey the Geneva Convention's articles! We can torture anyone we think is a terrorist!" It just goes to show that some of the policticians are not going, "Hey, wait a minute. This isn't right we can't let him do this to people." Him referring to the president.

I honestly think that Bush should be impeached for some of the crap he's been pulling. I mean jeez, this government is supposedly run by the people. We should have the right to say "The president is overstepping his power he should be impeached for his acts." Of course what do I know? I think I'm just rambling.... Or am I?? >_>[/SIZE]

[DBZgirl88]

[COLOR=#004a6f][quote name='Aaryanna][COLOR=DarkOrchid']It?s also sickening as he?s turning the US into a police state and all he is doing is making others in the world hate us. It?s frustrating since I and many other Americans had no say in the matter. I know if I had any say I would not have approved of what he has done. I wish he was kicked out now instead of later when his term is up in a year. Who knows what other idiotic decisions he will make that will just cause more problems. [/COLOR][/quote]*cough* coup d'etat *cough*[/COLOR]

[vegeta rocker]

i just read about the medic that came forward about his unit killing an iraqi civilian because they were angry about finding another insurgent.

They tossed him in a hole, shot him in the head multiple times, then threw a rifle and shovel in the pit so they could say he was trying to plant a roadside bomb.

You think its ok to torture someone who is innocent; this is the same mentality that is causing all the torture in prisons.

If you are or ever were in the military and you think its ok and your glad then you are no better than the insurgents killing american troops are.

You betray our country and our ideals and don't deserve to protect it.

[DaSilva]

Yeah.

The legalization of torture is extremely dangerous and we must resist it
and we must succeed. It is the kind of thing that makes the world hate
us and want to attack us. It creates justification for terrorists to
recruit members to their cause. A few days ago the president of
Venezuela called Bush "The Devil", which was a crazy thing to do, but
his speech drew more applause than Bush's speech. The world is trying to
tell us something. The United States is considered by most of the world
to be the biggest threat on the planet. This is in part because the
world has higher expectations of us and it is shocking that we have
lowered ourselves to the level of barbarians.

[Horendithas]

[COLOR=DeepSkyBlue]I can't say that I'm thrilled with it. It's just one step down the slippery slope of abusing power in the name of fighting terrorism. By abandoning the laws that other countries uphold I feel that not only is it a slap in the fact to the American people, but to other countries who have supported us.

It's not the first time our government has done things in spite of heavy disapproval from both it's own people and those of other countries, and sadly I suspect it will not be the last. It's all too easy for this sort of thing to get out of control, which is why there were laws to protect people in the first place. You know there's something wrong when those in power feel that they should be exempt for being punished for wrong doing.[/COLOR]

[Ol' Fighter]

What...the hell...was he thinking, honestly the world already views us as ya know little powerful idiots but this is like tottally adding wood to the fire.(I would of replied to this thread sooner but I'm lazy)

He is trying to justify so much crap that can absolutly not be it sickens me as a American and all this just for that...I don't know it's just something specifically about that, that disturbs my very soul especailly the part when they mess up and detain the wrong people...gezz...

Bad karma written all over this one... :animesigh