Gaming Change isn't good. It's Grrrrrrreat!!

[Charles]

The Final Fantasy series has always been an animal of evolution.
With each passing game, drastic changes are implemented to the formula, truly delivering different gameplay experiences, either accepted with open arms, or scoffed at by purists.
Director, Yoshinori Kitase himself, said: "I believe there is no element absolutely essential to a Final Fantasy's success-but making drastic changes between consecutive installments can be quite risky. Final Fantasy I and Final Fantasy II had several noticable differences, but the overall feel of the game carried over in the sequel. You can make similar arguments while comparing FF II and FF III, and FF III and FF IV. But contrasting FF I and FF VI is like comparing apples to oranges. You can't draw any similarities between FF VI and FFX, either."
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy X realizes that the ATB system has been done away with, the world map as we know it is no more, and the sphere grid replaces the traditional method of leveling up.
The question I must pose is, "How much change is too much change?" Eventually there may be a day when Chocobos, Mogs, and the name Cid cease to appear in a FF game. Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, strayed extremely far away from it's roots and became a box office flop. So much so in fact, that Square will no longer dabble in the motion picture industry.
Does this forbode impending doom upon layers of change? Do chocobos and mogs essentially make Final Fantasy "Final Fantasy?" Granted, change can keep the series from becoming stale, but does anyone feel that Final Fantasy will evolve so much so, that in fact, that it will no longer contain what has made it a staple among what role playing games must be measured?

[Guest Voodookanaka]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]The Final Fantasy series has always been an animal of evolution.
With each passing game, drastic changes are implemented to the formula, truly delivering different gameplay experiences, either accepted with open arms, or scoffed at by purists.
Director, Yoshinori Kitase himself, said: "I believe there is no element absolutely essential to a Final Fantasy's success-but making drastic changes between consecutive installments can be quite risky. Final Fantasy I and Final Fantasy II had several noticable differences, but the overall feel of the game carried over in the sequel. You can make similar arguments while comparing FF II and FF III, and FF III and FF IV. But contrasting FF I and FF VI is like comparing apples to oranges. You can't draw any similarities between FF VI and FFX, either."
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy X realizes that the ATB system has been done away with, the world map as we know it is no more, and the sphere grid replaces the traditional method of leveling up.
The question I must pose is, "How much change is too much change?" Eventually there may be a day when Chocobos, Mogs, and the name Cid cease to appear in a FF game. Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, strayed extremely far away from it's roots and became a box office flop. So much so in fact, that Square will no longer dabble in the motion picture industry.
Does this forbode impending doom upon layers of change? Do chocobos and mogs essentially make Final Fantasy "Final Fantasy?" Granted, change can keep the series from becoming stale, but does anyone feel that Final Fantasy will evolve so much so, that in fact, that it will no longer contain what has made it a staple among what role playing games must be measured? [/B][/QUOTE]


.................u think waaaaaaaay too much.


as long as its an rpg i could prolly still except it as being FF

[Guest Zeh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]The Final Fantasy series has always been an animal of evolution.
With each passing game, drastic changes are implemented to the formula, truly delivering different gameplay experiences, either accepted with open arms, or scoffed at by purists.
Director, Yoshinori Kitase himself, said: "I believe there is no element absolutely essential to a Final Fantasy's success-but making drastic changes between consecutive installments can be quite risky. Final Fantasy I and Final Fantasy II had several noticable differences, but the overall feel of the game carried over in the sequel. You can make similar arguments while comparing FF II and FF III, and FF III and FF IV. But contrasting FF I and FF VI is like comparing apples to oranges. You can't draw any similarities between FF VI and FFX, either."
Anyone who has played Final Fantasy X realizes that the ATB system has been done away with, the world map as we know it is no more, and the sphere grid replaces the traditional method of leveling up.
The question I must pose is, "How much change is too much change?" Eventually there may be a day when Chocobos, Mogs, and the name Cid cease to appear in a FF game. Final Fantasy: The Spirits Within, strayed extremely far away from it's roots and became a box office flop. So much so in fact, that Square will no longer dabble in the motion picture industry.
Does this forbode impending doom upon layers of change? Do chocobos and mogs essentially make Final Fantasy "Final Fantasy?" Granted, change can keep the series from becoming stale, but does anyone feel that Final Fantasy will evolve so much so, that in fact, that it will no longer contain what has made it a staple among what role playing games must be measured? [/B][/QUOTE]


[COLOR=red]Good, i've been looking for something to think about.

I think it really doesn't matter if they change the stuff they've continuously put in it.

From what I see, Moogles, Chocobos and the name Cid really don't make up the game.

I like to look at the quality of the game... like you try to make a racing game and you put choco's and all that stuff in it, would we considder it a Final Fantasy just because it would have the name Final Fantasy slapped on the box? [/COLOR]

[Outlaw]

I think that is essential to make every FF game new and unique. Without that element of change, then your basicly playing the same game again, just with different characters and story. Without the drastic changes in the way the game works, FF wouldn't be the incredible gaming success that it is today.

[Guest Zeh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Outlaw [/i]
[B]I think that is essential to make every FF game new and unique. Without that element of change, then your basicly playing the same game again, just with different characters and story. Without the drastic changes in the way the game works, FF wouldn't be the incredible gaming success that it is today. [/B][/QUOTE]


Couldn't of said it better myself :)

[Charles]

I also agree. Look at how the Tomb Raider series turned out with it's lack of change. However, the main concern is that Final Fantasy will cease to be Final Fantasy due to all of the drastic changes.

[Red]

[B]As long as they keep it reasonably close to it's roots, with a firm and complex storyline, I shall be happy with the Final Fantasy series.[/B]

[Charles]

I don't know. A lot of you rpg fans say you'd stick with Final Fantasy despite the changes, but there's something in the back of my mind that challenges this. I remember a game(you might have heard of it) called Chrono Cross. You know, sequel to the hit rpg Chrono Trigger? Well, the gameplay, artistic style, and main characters were changed, and it never received the same high accolades as Chrono Trigger.

[Sephiroth]

I'm kind of worried with the way the ff series is goibg after hearing ff10 has speech dialogue, they're trying to make it into a damn film, worries me indeed....

[Guest Zeh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]I don't know. A lot of you rpg fans say you'd stick with Final Fantasy despite the changes, but there's something in the back of my mind that challenges this. I remember a game(you might have heard of it) called Chrono Cross. You know, sequel to the hit rpg Chrono Trigger? Well, the gameplay, artistic style, and main characters were changed, and it never received the same high accolades as Chrono Trigger. [/B][/QUOTE]

[COLOR=red]Thats different.... or maybe it's not...

I guess you are right here. I'll always stick with FF though. It's the people who make that game. They make games with good quality. It's not "I like the FF sieries"... it's "I like SquareSoft"... look at Xeno Gears... an exelant game! But it has nothing to do with FF...


I guess what i'm trying to say here is:

I don't like Final Fantasy. I like the people who make the games.[/COLOR]

[Flash]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Sephiroth [/i]
[B]I'm kind of worried with the way the ff series is goibg after hearing ff10 has speech dialogue, they're trying to make it into a damn film, worries me indeed.... [/B][/QUOTE]

Yeah, and ya know when you accidentaly talk to someone twice? Instead of just having to read it twice, you'll have to hear it twice... the same dialouge repeated over... and over... and over... no change in tone or pitch or volume of voice... just the same... over... and over...

Great, now I'm scared of FFX...

[Break]

[SIZE=1]Final Fantasy [i]may[/i] be on the road to the pits. I see what Flash is saying, the dialogue would maybe make the game slower than usual, and what if the dialogue doesn't suit the character? Too bad, you're stuck with it all through the game. If you think that's bad look at FFXI!! You can only play it online (bummer!) [i]AND[/i] it has the dialogue thing too!

I'm sure they will all be great games, maybe not as good as VII, VIII and IX; but the Final Fantasy series for the PS2 will make a dramatic change in the way that Final Fantasy plays.

But, for those who just like Squaresoft and their games, this wouldn't change their veiws, or it may do. We do not know fer-sher what Square has planned next.
[/SIZE]

[Guest Zeh]

[COLOR=red]Ya never know, there may be a way to disable the speech thingy... [/COLOR]

[Charles]

I agree that the voice acting can be a bummer. While it does lend in pulling you into the story, it does bring forth it's own problems. It seems like the combat is now thrown in, while cut scenes take up the meat of the game. I mean, it's like every other step I take and **poof** another cut scene. It's cool the first time through, but imagin replaying it. It'll get mighty boring watching the same stuff over and over without being able to skip it.

[Break]

[SIZE=1]Yeah, that's all true... you may be able to disable the dialogue and just have text :D and, it would be cool if when you have beat the game once, then the next time you play, you could skip cut-scenes.

And the FFX movie? One thing to say to that :rolleyes: :sleep: [/SIZE]

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]I don't know. A lot of you rpg fans say you'd stick with Final Fantasy despite the changes, but there's something in the back of my mind that challenges this. I remember a game(you might have heard of it) called Chrono Cross. You know, sequel to the hit rpg Chrono Trigger? Well, the gameplay, artistic style, and main characters were changed, and it never received the same high accolades as Chrono Trigger. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=orangered][size=1]Actually, Chrono Cross received just as much praise (if not more) as Chrono Trigger.

IGN, for one, scored it a perfect 10. And IGN don't score on a whim.

Having played both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, I can safely say that CC was much better than CT. In many ways, it continued some of the core elements of the original, at the same time, it was far more unique than the Final Fantasy series. I think that it was a great way for Square to experiment with different concepts.

The only reason it didn't sell very well was, simply, it wasn't one of those publicly recognized games. But neither was Chrono Trigger, in a sense.

Final Fantasy has a huge name...huge advertising. The Chrono series really never had that.

Chrono Cross was really far more innovative/beautiful/creative than Final Fantasy...and in particular, I loved the soundtrack.

As for changes in FF...I think that Square hasn't changed enough. I'm glad that FFX contains more fundamental changes than has been seen in previous games.

Final Fantasy VII was really my favourite. It's combination of awesome plot and memorable characters made it better overall than FFVIII or FFIX. FFIX was, in terms of story and characters, the weakest in the modern series. It's visual style however, was awesome. As was it's translation.

Final Fantasy needs to undergo change in order to prevent it from being stagnant. I'm not worried about change -- I welcome it, provided that it's warranted. I mean, it's useless to change something good and put something bad in it's place...but it's important to improve on as many areas as possible.

As I mentioned in my thread, FFX is Hironobu Sakaguchi's (the FF creator) last Final Fantasy game. But even FFX includes much new talent (particularly in the area of music), and I feel that this fresh talent, combined with the staples of great game design, will make Final Fantasy XI and XII very memorable games.

I don't think anyone needs to be worried about Final Fantasy changing though, it's for the better.

Anyway...just wanted to throw my thoughts out there.

By the way, what would you guys think if Otaku Media made a Final Fantasy site? Do you think it'd be worth making? :)[/color][/size]

[Guest Zeh]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]
[color=orangered][size=1]

Actually, Chrono Cross received just as much praise (if not more) as Chrono Trigger.

IGN, for one, scored it a perfect 10. And IGN don't score on a whim.

Having played both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, I can safely say that CC was much better than CT. In many ways, it continued some of the core elements of the original, at the same time, it was far more unique than the Final Fantasy series. I think that it was a great way for Square to experiment with different concepts.

The only reason it didn't sell very well was, simply, it wasn't one of those publicly recognized games. But neither was Chrono Trigger, in a sense.

Final Fantasy has a huge name...huge advertising. The Chrono series really never had that.

Chrono Cross was really far more innovative/beautiful/creative than Final Fantasy...and in particular, I loved the soundtrack.

As for changes in FF...I think that Square hasn't changed enough. I'm glad that FFX contains more fundamental changes than has been seen in previous games.

Final Fantasy VII was really my favourite. It's combination of awesome plot and memorable characters made it better overall than FFVIII or FFIX. FFIX was, in terms of story and characters, the weakest in the modern series. It's visual style however, was awesome. As was it's translation.

Final Fantasy needs to undergo change in order to prevent it from being stagnant. I'm not worried about change -- I welcome it, provided that it's warranted. I mean, it's useless to change something good and put something bad in it's place...but it's important to improve on as many areas as possible.

As I mentioned in my thread, FFX is Hironobu Sakaguchi's (the FF creator) last Final Fantasy game. But even FFX includes much new talent (particularly in the area of music), and I feel that this fresh talent, combined with the staples of great game design, will make Final Fantasy XI and XII very memorable games.

I don't think anyone needs to be worried about Final Fantasy changing though, it's for the better.[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]


[COLOR=red]I have to agree. If they continue getting better, maybe sometime in the future all there games will be as memorable as FFVII was... that would be a chnge for the better.[/COLOR]


[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]
[color=orangered][size=1]By the way, what would you guys think if Otaku Media made a Final Fantasy site? Do you think it'd be worth making? :)[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]



[COLOR=red]I bet you already know my 2 cents on that ;)[/COLOR]

[conpiracymonki]

[b]Other genre games have voices for characters, and usually they're pretty annoying, but hey-...you don't see me not buy SF3, even though Gabe Logan now talks, acts [i]and[/i] now,..looks like a jerk...so I don't think the voices'll really put anyone off after a few minutes of gameplay..

Also,..like Cloud said, a way to disable voices..and maybe you could skip talk too, by pressing START/X etc,...unlike FF7,8 and 9 (Hey, that's all I've played)

And...a question..
If there's no ATB,...how [i]do[/i] characters take their moves..?

[color=red][size=1]Yes,...AbsoluteFF would just kick..[/b]:angel: [/size][/color]

[Charles]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by James [/i]
[B]

[color=orangered][size=1]Actually, Chrono Cross received just as much praise (if not more) as Chrono Trigger.

IGN, for one, scored it a perfect 10. And IGN don't score on a whim.

Having played both Chrono Trigger and Chrono Cross, I can safely say that CC was much better than CT. In many ways, it continued some of the core elements of the original, at the same time, it was far more unique than the Final Fantasy series. I think that it was a great way for Square to experiment with different concepts.

The only reason it didn't sell very well was, simply, it wasn't one of those publicly recognized games. But neither was Chrono Trigger, in a sense.

Final Fantasy has a huge name...huge advertising. The Chrono series really never had that.

Chrono Cross was really far more innovative/beautiful/creative than Final Fantasy...and in particular, I loved the soundtrack.

As for changes in FF...I think that Square hasn't changed enough. I'm glad that FFX contains more fundamental changes than has been seen in previous games.

Final Fantasy VII was really my favourite. It's combination of awesome plot and memorable characters made it better overall than FFVIII or FFIX. FFIX was, in terms of story and characters, the weakest in the modern series. It's visual style however, was awesome. As was it's translation.

Final Fantasy needs to undergo change in order to prevent it from being stagnant. I'm not worried about change -- I welcome it, provided that it's warranted. I mean, it's useless to change something good and put something bad in it's place...but it's important to improve on as many areas as possible.

As I mentioned in my thread, FFX is Hironobu Sakaguchi's (the FF creator) last Final Fantasy game. But even FFX includes much new talent (particularly in the area of music), and I feel that this fresh talent, combined with the staples of great game design, will make Final Fantasy XI and XII very memorable games.

I don't think anyone needs to be worried about Final Fantasy changing though, it's for the better.

Anyway...just wanted to throw my thoughts out there.

By the way, what would you guys think if Otaku Media made a Final Fantasy site? Do you think it'd be worth making? :)[/color][/size] [/B][/QUOTE]


As usual, you make some very interesting points. I agree about Chrono Cross being a phenominal game. EGM even gave it a wonderful score, stating that it was a significant improvment upon the original.

However, Chrono Trigger actually scored higher on EGM's top 100 games by exactly ten spots. I feel that most Chrono Trigger purists were so disappointed by the change in art design, central characters, and dimensional travel, that they dismissed it.

There is no doubt that Chrono Cross will forever be the more forgettable game and that's because of change. Even if it's combat system was superb, it's endings numerous, it's vast set of characters brilliant, and its secrets plentiful.

As for FFX, the sphere grid is awesome, and I really do like the change. As I said, Tomb Raider is a prime example of what a lack of change will do. However, you must even be concerned over the stronger emphasis on cinematic approach. I have a feeling that the replay value will plummit.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]



However, Chrono Trigger actually scored higher on EGM's top 100 games by exactly ten spots. I feel that most Chrono Trigger purists were so disappointed by the change in art design, central characters, and dimensional travel, that they dismissed it.

There is no doubt that Chrono Cross will forever be the more forgettable game and that's because of change. Even if it's combat system was superb, it's endings numerous, it's vast set of characters brilliant, and its secrets plentiful.

As for FFX, the sphere grid is awesome, and I really do like the change. As I said, Tomb Raider is a prime example of what a lack of change will do. However, you must even be concerned over the stronger emphasis on cinematic approach. I have a feeling that the replay value will plummit. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=orangered][size=1]I doubt that cinematics will lower play value, given that Final Fantasy X has more real-time cinema than any of the previous "modern" games.

I think a lot of people unfairly bash FMV. Final Fantasy's FMV enabled the creators to accurately depict epic situations...and to tell stories with great emotion.

I think that FFVIII would have been a LOT worse without FMV, because the FMV provided the kind of freedom to allow for creative storytelling sequences. I've always thought of Final Fantasy as a kind of "interactive novel". Even in the old games, there was technically no more interaction than there is now. Even then, you still had characters standing around talking for ages...

So really, I think that Square is finding ways to improve interactivity (ie: Blitzball).

As for the CC/CT thing, I have no doubt that CC was actually the better game. However, despite what people will tell you, the only reason that CC was more forgettable, was because it was the newer game.

CT has a certain level of nostalgia attatched to it (especially since it was on a Nintendo console). And I think that people have fond memories of older games...but sometimes they forget that objectively speaking, the newer game might actually be better.

And the change in art style...well...there really was no change as such. The game moved into 3D...but it wasn't a dramatic change in style. In fact, many of the locales in CC are very reflective of CT environments. So I actually felt quite a strong design correlation between the two.

[/color][/size]

[Charles]

I Just thought I'd clear up what I meant in change of art style. I was referring to the fact that Akira Toriyama was no longer doing character designs. Although the new character drawings were pretty bad, they did not affect my opinion of the game. However, be it on message boards or what not, there were many people(nit pickers) who would constantly bring this up.

[James]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Crazy White Boy [/i]
[B]I Just thought I'd clear up what I meant in change of art style. I was referring to the fact that Akira Toriyama was no longer doing character designs. Although the new character drawings were pretty bad, they did not affect my opinion of the game. However, be it on message boards or what not, there were many people(nit pickers) who would constantly bring this up. [/B][/QUOTE]

[color=orangered][size=1]I know what you mean, but I didn't find the new designs bad at all.

It's obviously difficult to compare old 2D sprites to modern 3D renderings, though.

In terms of style, there isn't a huge difference. The newer designs weren't so suddenly terrible that they warranted a lot of complaint...I really do agree that you would be nit picking to include this as any major point.[/color][/size]

[Zidargh]

[SIZE=1]Hmm, this is only a prediction but I think Square make chnages in a similar sort of way to editing. For example, thre's always been an essence of the previous release like Chocobos from 7 to 8 (Of course below, but just an example) and then 8 to 9, etc. They must survey very carefully from viewers feedback.[/SIZE]
[SIZE=1]And then they excel, to the storyline and check that there is something that the player will recognise, because maybe the gamers attitude to a complete change in storyline. But it's just a theory[/SIZE]